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#i could absolutely see back carry being used for long distance travel with low chance of fighting but: lack of period evidence – @zenosanalytic on Tumblr
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Racing Turtles

@zenosanalytic / zenosanalytic.tumblr.com

"Why run, my little Phoenician?"
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petermorwood

What are the logistical issues with carrying a sword over one's shoulder?

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Carrying a sword propped over one’s shoulder like a rifle or fishing-rod is okay: period artists who’d seen it for real show that as standard practice for big two-handers.

Carrying a sword slung across the back as a means of transport is sort-of okay, though any evidence I’ve seen for that is Asian even though most fantasy and reenactment back-carrys are European-ish:

There’s a Thai style of fighting with two short swords (dhaab / darb or krabi?) and these statues show how they were carried. They may even have been drawn from that position, but it’s important to remember that these are SHORT swords, not full-length ones.

Carrying a full-size sword across the back and drawing it over-shoulder is not okay.

Except for short swords - and the ones in fantasy back-carry are always full-size - it’s physically impossible to do an over-shoulder draw without special pleading, special scabbards and in some movies, special editing so the sword goes from back-carry to drawn without ever seeing it happen in a single move.

Since the action of drawing a sword is the same action as slicing with it, running a bared sword-blade past its wielder’s own earlobe or jugular vein doesn’t seem very smart either. The Thai examples are single-edged, and - most clearly on the lower statue - that dangerous edge is on the outside, away from the neck. Trying the same thing with a double-edged blade is an accident waiting to happen, and IMO it won’t wait long.

Wearing a sword across the back came to major notice with the 1982 movie “Conan the Barbarian” (though Arnie never makes a draw from there). It looks cool, as demonstrated by how often it shows up in other movies, TV shows, comics, book and game covers etcetera etcetera since then.

Something I can’t fully grasp is the desperate need for back-carry and back-draw to be “Real”.

Elaborate harnesses with crossguard hooks, half-length or split scabbards and for all I know battery-powered electromagnets mean it can certainly be “Done” (see Youtube) - but though wearing genuine 14th century armour from a museum doesn’t prevent use of a smartphone, it doesn’t prove smartphones were used in the 14th century.

Until I see Western period proof of back-carry to match those Japanese examples, I’ll not believe it was ever “Real” in the historical sense its evangelists so ardently desire.

I first asked for genuine evidence of European back-carry - artefacts, pictures, text, whatever - on the defunct website Netsword.com. That was more than twenty-five years ago. I’m still waiting.

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Just because it /wasn't/ done doesn't mean it wasn't possible. Best example of this I can think of is JoergSprave's "Instant Legalos", a repeating longbow made of period materials.

You mention it's possible with special scabards, so the real question is are those scabbards possible with period materials and... I honestly don't see why it wouldn't be. As to slicing your own earlobe... That's a bit silly. You could easily make the same point about slicing your arm with a side scabard, or shooting your own foot with a side holstered firearm. The latter has verifiably happened, and the former almost certainly happened. In all cases it comes down to negligence.

I can respect the lack of historical accuracy, there is no historical evidence as far as I'm aware; however with specific regards fantasy I think when it comes to "realism" whether something was done historically is much less important than whether it was possible historically. Could it have been done with period materials? Were the crafting techniques of the era sufficient? Is it pragmatic? If all those things are true I fail to see why it's unrealistic in a fantasy setting.

I found this buried in Drafts, so far down that the original reblogger is deactivated and gone, and wondered should I post it anyway?

Yeah, why not... ;->

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"As to slicing your own earlobe... That's a bit silly. You could easily make the same point about slicing your arm with a side scabard..."

As I wrote in the OP, drawing a sword is a slicing motion, and a draw over your shoulder performs that slicing motion right alongside your own neck. Unless there’s a helmet and gorget or mail coif in the way, an over-shoulder draw means slicing your own earlobe - or something more vital - is a Real Risk.

Single-edged swords are relatively safe, because one side of the blade is (usually) blunt; this, and short blades, helps with some Eastern back-carry such as Thai. However, double-edged long swords, like most medieval European ones - the kind most frequently featured in fantasy, also most frequently featured in Back-Carry And Draw From There - are another matter entirely.

That’s not an experiment I’m going to repeat - and I was being careful; doing the same thing at combat speed would be Dangerous.

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However, this is what made me scratch my head.

“You could easily make the same point about slicing your arm with a side scabbard...”

Um, whut?

That goes beyond "a bit silly" into downright daft, because of the improbable contortions required for it to happen.

Here are two medieval illustrations (David & Goliath) of a European arming sword being drawn...

Here's an 18th-century smallsword being drawn.

...and modern photos of a Japanese katana being drawn.

An inexperienced katana-wielder might slice a finger or thumb of their scabbard-holding hand; IIRC the chance of this is highest when returning the sword to its scabbard after completing a kata, and is why new students work with blunts.

But not one of these images gives any clue about how or when the right and left ARM risk being sliced.

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As for why "modern style" back-carry-and-draw is unrealistic even in a fantasy setting...

In order to work properly, all these modern designs have set aside some features of what a scabbard is FOR.

Carrying the sword, yes; they accept that. But they ignore that it’s also for protection. Firstly, to protect other people from the sword’s edges. Exposing this much blade is safe enough for a repro blunt, but a sharp is distinctly hazardous.

Secondly, it's also hazardous for the sword; a scabbard should protect the blade, and any open design whether the hooks-and-point-cover arrangement or this split-sided one...

...is going to allow rain, mud, salt sea air and all the rest to get at what was NOT modern stainless steel.

A sword exposed by those point-cover things is also vulnerable to inquisitive fingers - whether the fingers are vulnerable in turn depends on the sharpness.

"Please don't touch the blade" is something probably said by every sword owner. It's not just because they're sharp (most of mine aren't); it's because if they're regular carbon steel instead of stainless, fingers will leave marks.

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Real medieval scabbard-makers knew about these problems. Their products completely enclosed the blade, were often lined with raw fleece which gripped the blade more tightly and was also lanolin-greasy for rustproofing, and made a snug fit where hilt met scabbard.

Many also had flaps extending up from the scabbard and around the sword’s crossguard; these may have been purely decorative or to help keep water out,...

...while some late-medieval / Renaissance swords had flaps or collars on their hilts instead. Again, possibly decorative only, but they certainly look like weather-shields to me.

All of which proves (to me, anyway) that the partial scabbards and open-sided scabbards to enable drawing from back-carry are mere modern fantasy creations, with inconvenient realisms ignored in favour of Make Back-Draw Work Or Life Is Incomplete.

A back-scabbard in any of these modern styles was certainly possible using period materials and techniques, but weren't made in-period.

The artisans of centuries ago knew better.

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roach-works

chiming in to point out that the modern appeal of a back-draw is that it’s a very convenient way to feel like a badass with a sword....when you’re not used to carrying a sword around all the time.

carrying a sword of any significant size sheathed at your hip makes you feel like an awkward poser the first time you’re confronted with a chair. or a crowd. or a tent with unexpected ropes. or uneven ground. or a tree you could have sworn was a bit further away. you’re pretty sure, pretty fast, that this can’t have been how working professionals used to do it!

solution: if you carry it across your back it’s very secure and comfortable and doesn’t waggle around even if you’ve got the biggest bastard sword at the faire. looks great, doesn’t hit anyone, and you feel extremely manly. this has to be the right way! a

meanwhile in the past i am completely certain people just got used to occasionally bonking into things with their swords. i mean, if you get hit with someone’s sword... are you gonna make a big deal of it. they have a sword.

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