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Racing Turtles

@zenosanalytic / zenosanalytic.tumblr.com

"Why run, my little Phoenician?"
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harmalite

CLADISTICS ruined my life

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aquaticpaleo

yall joke but this is actually a serious conundrun with cladistic-based classification

The choice is this: 

Birds are reptiles 

Or crocodilians (and probably turtles) ARENT 

That’s it, that’s the choice 

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shadybacon

What if Bird and reptiles are two different things that came from the same thing

Nope 

Because you can’t group (lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians) without also including (birds) 

So if you don’t want to include birds in reptiles then you have to leave out some things we’ve called reptiles 

birds are dinosaurs though, full stop. we’ve already defined what a dinosaur is and it includes birds. but reptiles isn’t really defined so much as thrown against a wall angrily. 

But don’t turtles and alligators have more in common with modern reptiles than modern birds have in common with modern reptiles? I’m not trying to contradict, I’m trying to understand. Mammals and reptiles have a common ancestor as well, but we do not make them the same group.

It’s not about having things in common. It’s about common ancestry, which is how we classify animals in light of extinct species, which defy trait-based classification. 

And, the common ancestor of [lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians] by definition is also the common ancestor of birds. It is NOT the common ancestor of mammals. 

So, either we decide that Tuatara Lizards and Snakes are the only reptiles, or we include birds as reptiles. Or we just decide reptiles are no longer a thing. 

don’t throw reptiles against the wall? please? some of them are small and delicate. you could hurt them.

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virovac

Basically, unless we’re maybe talking massive horizontal gene transfer, everything is still part of the group that came before it. 

You are technically a fish.

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haltraveler

IIRC the fish thing is so frustrating that scientists have decided fish is just not real cladistic grouping at all

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ikimonogaku

On a tangential note: cladistically, all insects are actually crustaceans.

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reblogged
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harmalite

CLADISTICS ruined my life

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aquaticpaleo

yall joke but this is actually a serious conundrun with cladistic-based classification

The choice is this: 

Birds are reptiles 

Or crocodilians (and probably turtles) ARENT 

That’s it, that’s the choice 

Avatar
shadybacon

What if Bird and reptiles are two different things that came from the same thing

Nope 

Because you can’t group (lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians) without also including (birds) 

So if you don’t want to include birds in reptiles then you have to leave out some things we’ve called reptiles 

birds are dinosaurs though, full stop. we’ve already defined what a dinosaur is and it includes birds. but reptiles isn’t really defined so much as thrown against a wall angrily. 

But don’t turtles and alligators have more in common with modern reptiles than modern birds have in common with modern reptiles? I’m not trying to contradict, I’m trying to understand. Mammals and reptiles have a common ancestor as well, but we do not make them the same group.

It’s not about having things in common. It’s about common ancestry, which is how we classify animals in light of extinct species, which defy trait-based classification. 

And, the common ancestor of [lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians] by definition is also the common ancestor of birds. It is NOT the common ancestor of mammals. 

So, either we decide that Tuatara Lizards and Snakes are the only reptiles, or we include birds as reptiles. Or we just decide reptiles are no longer a thing. 

don’t throw reptiles against the wall? please? some of them are small and delicate. you could hurt them.

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virovac

Basically, unless we’re maybe talking massive horizontal gene transfer, everything is still part of the group that came before it. 

You are technically a fish.

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haltraveler

IIRC the fish thing is so frustrating that scientists have decided fish is just not real cladistic grouping at all

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aethersea

hey could we go back please to the bit where the closest relative of Birds is Crocodiles? bc I am alarmed

Well, technically they’re equally-closely related to crocodiles, alligators, gharials and tomistomas. As archosaurs, they’re all descended from small reptiles that looked something like this 

The two main groups of archosaurs are the Pseudosuchia, or crocodile-line archosaurs, and the Ornithodira, or bird-line archosaurs. Both groups were massively diverse in prehistory, with the Pseudosuchia dominating most land-based niches in the Triassic, and the Ornithodira, especially the dinosaurs, doing the same during the Jurassic and Cretaceous. However, most of them have been wiped out due to the Triassic and Cretaceous mass extinctions, leaving them each with only one surviving clade: Aves, the true birds, and Crocodylia, the semiaquatic, ambush predators like crocs and gators. 

This entire post sums up everything we’re not allowed to mention in our Vertebrata classes because the last time someone started that argument they had to break up a fistfight.

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knitordeath

I’m just hung up on the humans evolving from fish comment.

Like, we evolved from tiny tree-climbing squirrels. To the best of our knowledge.

…which evolved from tiny tree-climbing reptiles

…which evolved from amphibians

…which evolved from fish.

*runs in ten minutes late with a plucked chicken* BEHOLD A LIZARD

you could have left the feathers on this time tbh

It was already plucked. They just STOLE IT from philosophy 101.

Every turn on this post has been a left, but somehow it hasn’t hit itself, and instead just spiralled outwards like some Ancient Greco-Roman floor design, enveloping taxonomy Tumblr in chaos.

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palominocorn

LMFAO

My evolutionary bio professor took the class to a museum of natural science once and pointed out that of, like, a dozen skeletons in the “dinosaur” exhibit only one was actually a dinosaur. There were more dinosaurs next door. In the bird room.

Also: carcinization. Nature loves evolving crabs. What we call “crabs” are actually five different groups that all happened to evolve the same body shape.

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roach-works

ive actually been wondering about this one: do the different crab groups taste different from each other or do they all taste like crab

Just a humble snake of history, but this doesn’t seem difficult to me at first glance. Birds are reptiles, but also unique and varied enough to be their own Thing, the same way amphibians are their own thing and also tetrapods, or mammals also amniotes. Just say Branch C is “Reptiles” and call it a day, right?

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harmalite

CLADISTICS ruined my life

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aquaticpaleo

yall joke but this is actually a serious conundrun with cladistic-based classification

The choice is this: 

Birds are reptiles 

Or crocodilians (and probably turtles) ARENT 

That’s it, that’s the choice 

Avatar
shadybacon

What if Bird and reptiles are two different things that came from the same thing

Nope 

Because you can’t group (lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians) without also including (birds) 

So if you don’t want to include birds in reptiles then you have to leave out some things we’ve called reptiles 

birds are dinosaurs though, full stop. we’ve already defined what a dinosaur is and it includes birds. but reptiles isn’t really defined so much as thrown against a wall angrily. 

But don’t turtles and alligators have more in common with modern reptiles than modern birds have in common with modern reptiles? I’m not trying to contradict, I’m trying to understand. Mammals and reptiles have a common ancestor as well, but we do not make them the same group.

It’s not about having things in common. It’s about common ancestry, which is how we classify animals in light of extinct species, which defy trait-based classification. 

And, the common ancestor of [lizards, snakes, tuatara, turtles, crocodilians] by definition is also the common ancestor of birds. It is NOT the common ancestor of mammals. 

So, either we decide that Tuatara Lizards and Snakes are the only reptiles, or we include birds as reptiles. Or we just decide reptiles are no longer a thing. 

Thats interesting and highlights a different problem.

See non scientists dont classify based on technicalities. No one is calling a lizard and snake a reptile because its from the same ancestor we are calling it that because they are scaley cold blooded thing.

Its just like how this or that piece of literature is technically fan fiction of another but because its been a historical piece of literature ppl treat it as such

I guess another example is farenheit vs celsius. Farenheit is for ppl celsius is for science

True! It’s an issue that comes from projecting biases onto studies that strictly don’t concern humans. An art historian really shouldn’t be considering a connection between depictions of birds and lizards. But a molecular biologist? They need to know this or their papers will suck ass.

I love the temperature analogy. I mean some people are gonna get offended (haha americans am i rite?) but it’s true. The 0-100°F range closely conforms to temperatures humans would consider comfortable with the right clothing. It’s Useful. Celsius, on the other hand? A bit vague. The units are bigger; you overheat somewhere between 39° and 40° and 0 degrees is when it snows, but it doesn’t really mean much to our warm-blooded bodies. But then there’s the hard sciences. Celsius is (1) based off of state changes in water, basically the most versatile, easy to work with, commonly used compound in chemistry (2) higher energy substances might dip into absurdly high or low °F which is harder to measure with precision. 

To most people, birds are not reptiles. Bird-watching is a different set of skills than herping.  If you try to care for a pet bird like a lizard, it’s going to die. We know all this, obviously. Keeping gorillas in zoos is cute but owning humans is an atrocity. Even though everyone knows both are apes.  

 That doesn’t mean that it isn’t helpful for the general public to know the distinction between a diapsid and a reptile or herp or serpent. Featherless biped =! man. When an edge case pops up, people get confused, and it ends up driving a wedge between culture and science. Case in point, these guys:

are charming, but it’s 100% their fault that a whole generation of nerds got up in arms about paleontology RUINING dinosaurs. Because dromaeosaurs, obviously, are reptiles and not birds (this statement is true, even in cladistics) They need to fit into one of our categories so an audience can relate to them, hence a reptilian visage lifted from monitor lizards and iguanas. But It’s not just pedantry: these kinds of misconceptions can hurt scientific literacy more than we’d think.  Dinosaurs are generally regarded a “science thing”, so they’re actually a very important educational tool, especially for young children, about how evolution works. 

Also just for appreciating the natural world too… I went from loving birds to being obsessed with birds after learning about how they fit in the reptile family tree!

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making two extremely bitter dinosaur shirts for myself to wear to the June 22 2018 Jurassic World 2 premiere

let’s be real, no matter how crap this movie is I WILL be going multiple times. thus, multiple outfits - here’s number 2

ALRIGHT, getting a lot of messages arguing with the rooster! so I’ll break it down once, & then please obey the rooster’s speech bubble

1. Birds are Dinosaurs

at this point, no sane person can deny the relationship between birds & non-avian dinosaurs. if through magic you saw a photo of velociraptor today, you’d just say “neat-o I think that turkey has teeth!” & go back to scrolling your twitter feed. 

but let’s clarify what a dinosaur is: Dinosauria is defined as the MCRA (most common recent ancestor) of Megalosaurus & Iguandon, and all their descendants thereof. you see that branching cladogram up above? everything past ‘Archosauria’ is an archosaur, including birds, everything past ‘Dinosauria’ is a dinosaur, including birds, and everything past ‘Aves’ is a bird.

so, Tyrannosaurus rex is not a bird, but a house sparrow IS a dinosaur.

2. Birds are Reptiles

many clades (groups consisting of a common ancestor & all it’s descendants) were made based on physical features like ectothermy and scales, before we fully understood who was related to who. so birds were not originally intended to be grouped with reptiles, but tracing their path backward in the tree of life, birds are nested in Archosauria (crocodiles, pterosaurs, dinosaurs, etc.), which is in turn nested in Reptilia (turtles, lizards, snakes, etc.)

by our own stupid rules, birds are reptiles.

The term “reptiles” should not be used at all in scientific discussions of phylogenetic relationships. Reptiles are a grade, a polyphyletic group constructed before we had evidence of birds being dinosaurs. The grup containing reptiles and birds is Sauropsida. Bird are not reptiles, but they are dinosaurs, which is a much cooler assertion.

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reblogged

Fun fact: Gender and Sex are both human made constructs designed to describe natural phenomenon but are not actually based in any biological reality. Much like the concept of “species”, it’s a model, and no model is an actuality - then it would not be a model, it would be a fact. 

In truth sexual characteristics are diverse and varied and do not always match up with sex chromosomes; also, a sexual “binary” of sorts is not constant amongst all living things, and most organisms have other systems of reproduction. 

Furthermore, gender is the suite of societally-defined social roles and behavioral characteristics that is typically assigned based on the externally perceived sex of a child; and does not actually have anything to do with biology - even less so than sex. Even though it is assigned based on this externally perceived sex, a person’s gender does not have to remain with the one assigned; much as we don’t determine people’s careers based on who their parents were anymore, your birth has no limitation on who you are and what gender identity you construct for yourself. Since it is a societally defined construct, people can and do construct more than the two traditional ones, and all are valid. 

Just because you cannot handle your societally constructed worldview surrounding sex, gender, and genetics being dismantled by sociology & biology itself doesn’t mean, additionally, that you have the right to make other people feel unsafe and uncomfortable - in short, that you have the right to remove people from moral consideration - simply because you don’t like having your world view being dismantled. Believe it or not, the complexities of human behavior & the diversity of sex and reproduction in life cannot all be covered in a simple high school biology class. 

So next time you want to say “didn’t you pass biology” remember: a biology PhD student, who graduated from the University of Notre Dame with an actual degree in Biological Sciences, has reminded you that you’re wrong. 

There are more than two genders. 

The end. 

Sex is biological tough… It’s not a social construct… It’s not time, racism etc. It’s a physics attribute.

Why are you trying to argue with someone who said species is a constructed model and not a fact? You’re not going to change someone’s mind when they’re that far down the rabbit hole

Me: Spends 6 years intensely studying biological science and evolution at two major universities with widespread academic acclaim, earning honors and high GPAs and am currently working on a PhD in the subject of biodiversity and evolution 

You: Somehow thinks they know more because you took a couple of classes

Lol

…Buddy. Buddy. Dude. I really don’t think you want to open this can of worms.

I mean, I know that in school they teach you a very clean, concise, definitive way of doing things and you’ve probably learnt something like the definition of a species is a population of organisms that are able to reproduce and produce viable offspring, or something. But I mean literally anyone who has done even undergrad biology can tell you that that statement is incredibly reductive and incredibly controversial in the scientific community [1][2]. In fact, you probably don’t even need a background in biology to spot the obvious flaw in the logic there, which is the fact that organisms classified as different species do reproduce and produce viable offspring. Quite a lot, actually. Lions and tigers (Panthera leo and P. tigris), coyotes and grey wolves (Canis latrans and C. lupus)… In fact, there’s even a word for new species arising through hybridisation between existing species - hybrid speciation [3]. The great skua (Stercorarius skua) is believed to be an example of this in animals [4], and another interesting one that may be pretty much hybrid speciation in action (though not nearly anything that can be called a new distinct species yet) is the so-called “Eastern coyote”, a population of wild coyotes in the eastern US that are mixed with grey wolf and domestic dog, and can contain as much as 40% non-coyote DNA [5]. 

And, in fact, the ability of two organisms to reproduce and produce viable offspring actually has very little with how we choose to classify them, because evolutionary and genetic relationships are rarely that simple. For example, some species that are the same genus - e.g. horses (Equus ferus) and donkeys (Equus africanus) can interbreed, but their offspring are usually sterile [6], while other species that are different genera to each other can interbreed to produce intergeneric hybrids, some of which are even fertile (for example crosses between false killer whales (Pseudorca crassidens) and bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops truncatus) [7], or between king snakes (genus Lampropeltis) and corn snakes (genus Pantherophis) [8]). Most “exotic” domestic cat breeds (e.g. Bengals and Savannahs) also fall into this category - for some reason felids are genetically Weird in that a wide variety of species in the family Felidae seem able to interbreed with each other, no matter how different or distantly related they are. I mean…

Look at this shit. Now bear in mind that the domestic cat (Felis catus) is known to be able to interbreed with species in the caracal, ocelot, lynx and leopard cat lineages in addition to those in its own lineage, and if that wasn’t bad enough puma/leopard hybrids are a thing that exist. Those species aren’t even in the same subfamily, let alone genus or genetic lineage - the leopard is classed as subfamily Pantherinae, genus Panthera (P. pardus) while the puma is classed as subfamily Felinae, genus Puma (P. concolor). 

[9]

Although these aren’t even the most distantly related species that are able to interbreed - domestic chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus) are known to hybridise with guineafowl [10], and the offspring of these crosses are interfamilial hybrids since chickens and guineafowl are classified in different families (chickens belong to family Phasianidae, guineafowl to family Numididae).

And of course another place where the “able to interbreed and produce viable offspring” definition falls apart is with organisms that reproduce asexually or without the need for a sexual partner, which is even more complicated when you consider that some species (for example, some species in the paraphyletic whiptail lizard genus Cnemidophorus) are dioecious, meaning they have separate sexes, and reproduce by producing gametes via meiosis, but have actually lost the ability to reproduce sexually somewhere along the evolutionary line - these species reproduce predominantly or entirely by parthenogenesis (essentially a form of self-cloning) and the Y chromosome has been entirely lost in the population. This also ties into hybrid speciation because it is believed that these parthenogenic species arose from hybridisation between two or three sexual species [11][12], leading to polyploid individuals (i.e. those with ‘extra’ sets of chromosomes) - for example, the all-female parthenogenic species Cnemidophorus neomexicanus is actually a hybrid of two sexual species, Cnemidophorus inornatus and C. marmoratus (or C. tigris, according to Wikipedia), and thus new individuals of this species can be formed either by parthenogenesis in a single C. neomexicanus parent, or sexual reproduction between a male and female C. inornatus and C. marmoratus/C. tigris [13]. Some female parthenogenic species are also able to interbreed sexually with males from sexual species, resulting in hybrids which may or may not also be parthenogenic [14].

So you can ask, well what the fuck is a genus, or a species for that matter, if it doesn’t necessarily indicate whether two animals are genetically similar enough to interbreed or not? And, more to the point, is there a strict set of quantitative criteria that defines whether two populations of organisms are classified as the same or different species? And I mentioned speciation, which brings up the question, when exactly in the process of evolution does one species actually become another?

The thing is, there aren’t actually definitive answers to these questions - if you ask a bunch of biologists what a species is, it’s likely you’ll get different answers. “Species” also has a number of definitions [15][16], mainly depending on the type of organism being studied and the angle it is being studied from. For bacteria, for instance - where “similar enough to reproduce” really isn’t applicable - I think the general consensus is that individuals are grouped together if their genetic similarity to one another is 97-98% or higher, while a similar definition of “organisms that are highly genetically similar to one another” tends to be used for asexually reproducing organisms such as some plants, and parthenogenic animals like whiptail lizards or Bdelloid rotifers (which does of course raise the question of what exactly “highly similar” means - any decided-upon cutoff point will necessarily be somewhat arbitrary). Such groupings of organisms may be referred to as phylotypes to distinguish them from the reproductive definition of a “species” [17]. Likewise, a lot of ecological writing will define species and speciation according to reproductive isolation, which isn’t necessarily synonymous with reproductive compatibility - reproductively isolated populations may be genetically able to reproduce, but be prevented from doing so or unlikely to do naturally so due to differences in geographical location, habitat or behaviour (think lions and tigers). These are some of the many different “types” of species, with either competing or overlapping definitions of what exactly constitutes a species in each case:

  • Morphological or typological species (morphospecies)
  • Phylogenetic species
  • Evolutionary species
  • Genetic species
  • Genalogical concordance species
  • Reproductive species
  • Autapomorphic species
  • Ecological species
  • Recognition species
  • Phenetic species
  • Isolation species
  • Cohesion species

…You get the idea.

For vertebrates, I think generally the two most used definitions are the biological species concept (BSC) and phylogenetic or cladistic species concept (PSC), which differ in their criteria for what they consider a species [18][19]. PSC, for example, doesn’t include a subspecies category while BSC does - and thus, some organisms that are classified as subspecies of the same species under BSC are either classified as different species or are lumped together as the same species under PSC. For example, grey wolves and domestic dogs. The domestic dog is/was often considered a separate species to the grey wolf, for obvious (morphological/behavioural) reasons - the wolf was Canis lupus, the dog C. familiaris - but since dogs are descended from wolves (a now-extinct lineage of wolves, not modern grey wolves [20], but Canis lupus nonetheless) they are more properly classified as a subspecies, C. l. familiaris. Likewise, having also ultimately descended from wolves, the dingo is officially classified as C. l. dingo, although there is some debate about that - at one stage I remember it being classified as a “subspecies” of domestic dog, Canis lupus familiaris dingo (and it’s still, to my knowledge, widely considered to be descended from domestic dogs [21][22], in which case the second name would be more correct), while still other people classify it as a completely separate species, Canis dingo [23]. You can see why species boundaries and definitions can get murky, especially when the exact evolutionary origins of a particular animal are unknown or hotly contested.

In fact, canids as a whole are kind of a mess when it comes to phylogeny. How many species of wolf there are really depends on who you ask - some populations traditionally classified as subspecies of the grey wolf, for example the Indian wolf (traditionally C. l. pallipes), the Himalayan or Tibetan wolf (traditionally C. l. chanco) and the Eastern wolf (traditionally C. l. lycaon) have been suggested instead to be classified as separate species - Canis indica, Canis himalayensis and Canis lycaon, respectively [24][25]. Likewise, just last year it was discovered that what was thought to be an African subspecies of the golden jackal (Canis aureus) had in fact been misidentified and was instead an undiscovered species of wolf, now the African golden wolf (Canis anthus) [26]. And then there’s also the fact that, despite being called “jackals”, the black-backed and side-striped jackals actually aren’t very closely related to the golden jackal, or indeed to any of the rest of the genus Canis [27]. In fact, going by the cladogram below, you can see that the African wild dog and dhole - both of which are classed in their own, unique genera (Lycaon and Cuon, respectively) - are actually placed closer to wolves, golden jackals and coyotes than black-backed and side-striped jackals are, even though both of the latter species are considered part of genus Canis (the black-backed jackal is C. mesomelas and the side-striped is C. adustus). Many sources also say that these two species differ from the rest of the group in that they have only 74 chromosomes, while wolves, coyotes, golden jackals, African wild dogs and dholes all have 78. This makes the moniker of genus Canis somewhat useless when trying to determine exactly how genetically similar these animals actually are to one another.

[28]

And this isn’t even touching the issue of the “red wolf” (Canis rufus), a critically endangered so-called “species” of wolf closely related to the grey wolf, eastern wolf and coyote, which more recent molecular and genetic analysis has revealed may simply be a wolf/coyote hybrid [29]. Of course these classifications aren’t set in stone, either - new studies and discoveries are constantly uprooting and rewriting our knowledge of phylogenetic and evolutionary relationships among species. Sometimes it’s also pretty much impossible to accurately represent the relationships between similar-but-distinct populations using only the terms “genus” and “species”, which is where alternate concepts like species complex, subgenus and superspecies come in.

Another feature of evolution and speciation that makes classification difficult is what are known as ring species, in which a series of neighbouring populations of organisms may evolve divergently (i.e. undergo allopatric speciation) in such a way that each geographically adjacent or overlapping population can interbreed with the next, but the last population in the “ring” has diverged to the point that it can no longer interbreed with the first (basically, population A can interbreed with population B, B with C and C with D, but D can no longer interbreed with A). 

[30][31]

When does the actual split occur, and at what point in the ring can we consider the populations to be different species? We just don’t know. (And in some cases this is considerably more messy and complicated than even the ring species model makes it seem [32]). The point is, though, that there is no definitive, universally agreed-upon cutoff point at which we can say with certainty that two organisms have evolved sufficiently as to become different species, any more than you can definitively say where along a rainbow spectrum of colours red becomes orange or orange becomes yellow. The decision whether to lump or split taxa becomes even more arbitrary in paleontology than it is with extant species [33][34] - when you’re working with an incomplete fossil record and pretty much going entirely on morphological similarities since genetic or molecular analysis often isn’t possible, there isn’t really a way to conclusively determine whether that specimen you found represents a new species, a new genus, or is simply a larger/smaller/juvenile/unfortunate-looking version of an already-described animal. Many specimens now believed to be juveniles of previously-described species were originally believed to be completely new ones - for example, Nanotyrannus is now often (but not universally) agreed to be a juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex [35], and Dracorex and Stygimoloch are considered immature specimens of Pachycephalosaurus [36]. And then there was the whole deal where Brontosaurus didn’t exist for a while and then it did again and it was all very confusing [37].

Obviously, at the end of the day, a zebra is materially different from a dog in the same way that, to get back to the original topic, a penis is materially different from a vagina (actually a bad analogy since homologous reproductive organs are much more similar to each other than taxa that have been separated for millions of years, but anyway). The biological differences and similarities themselves exist, but any attempt to categorise and quantify them will necessarily rely on socially constructed and frequently arbitrary models, definitions and assumptions. That’s basically what science is - a continuous (and frequently wildly inaccurate) attempt to try to make sense of reality. We often attempt to understand or make predictions about reality using mathematical or quantitative models of the situation or by sorting things into sets and categories, which is useful and necessary in many cases but is also often far too simplistic to be taken as any kind of gospel truth regarding the actual nature of reality, because simply put reality doesn’t care for or abide by human-made rules and categories. Essentially, we’re trying to find quantitative ways to represent things that are by nature qualitative, and that’s always going to be arbitrary to some extent. Obviously biological characteristics (whether genetic, sexual/reproductive, etc.) objectively exist and would continue to exist if humans and human culture were to suddenly disappear, and in that sense, things like sex, gender and taxonomic classification can be said to be based in biological reality. But human attempts to define or categorise these characteristics - for example species concepts, the binary model of sex, etc. - are not in themselves biological realities, and are subject to change based on new information. For example, evolutionarily speaking, “reptiles” (as we traditionally understand them) don’t exist [38]. Obviously this doesn’t mean that lizards, tortoises, snakes, crocodiles, non-avian dinosaurs etc. don’t exist or never existed. It simply means that the socially constructed classification of animals into two distinct, mutually exclusive groups called “reptiles” and “birds” is completely arbitrary and not actually the result of any inherent biological reality (in fact the opposite).

I mean I know how crappy the highschool biology syllabus can be @valarie-lynn so I’ll also link you to the Wikipedia page on species and the species problem, and also to some more on sex and how it’s just as complicated and arbitrary as the concept of species (from Actual Biologists™) if you’re interested. I’ll also leave you with a quote from Charles Darwin:

“From these remarks it will be seen that I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given for the sake of convenience to a set of individuals closely resembling each other, and that it does not essentially differ from the word variety, which is given to less distinct and more fluctuating forms. The term variety, again, in comparison with mere individual differences, is also applied arbitrarily, and for convenience sake .” [39]

…But you know, what would us simple SJWs know about our own fields of study  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Thank god we have the Pro-Science, Pro-Logic crowd to save us from the liberal Tumblr “rabbit hole”.

Holy fucking shit

Thank you, my friend, for doing what I was admittedly too lazy to do

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reblogged

so vulcans have copper based blood. i googled it and it turns out there are a few species on earth that have copper based blood, and the main oxygen-carrying protein in their blood is hemocyanin. let’s assume that vulcans have the same protein in their blood. 

before i go a disclaimer: i am not a professional scientist. i am reading a wikipedia article. this is likely to be inaccurate however i welcome corrections to it. also if i had enough money to buy the resources listed at the bottom of the wikipedia article to make this more accurate, i would. but its like $40 for one article so no.

so first and foremost i would like to address the whole “vulcans have green blood” thing star trek has going on. so in humans, our blood is red. this is because of our haemoglobin- a protein that primarily carries oxygen around our body. in vulcans, assuming they are like the earth creatures with copper based blood, they have hemocyanin, which on earth does the same thing as haemoglobin, but less efficiently. however in my research, it doesn’t make blood green. In fact, it’s clear. one wikipedia article states that “oxygenation causes a color change between the colorless Cu(I) deoxygenated form and the blue Cu(II) oxygenated form.” so what should happen for vulcans is their heart should have clear blood pumping into it (how fucking metal is that lmao) and then have blue blood pumping out of it. so really, they should look like humans that haven’t had their heart pumping in a few days- blue. their lips should be blue-ish and when they blush, they should blush blue. 

secondly, based on earth animals and science, they should have descended from arthropods, not cats. hemocyanin has only been found in arthropods (which can include insects, crustaceans, arachnids and myriapods). so they should have an exoskeleton. they shouldnt look human; if they keep their humanoid form they should have their skeleton on the outside (spooky). keeping with the arthropods as ancestors theme, they should have their skeleton be made of chitin. you know when those bugs shed their skin and you find the leftover shell on trees and shit? thats chitin. vulcans skin should look and feel like that. who knows? maybe they should molt it as well. 

now for my third point i’d like to point out that it is possible for vulcans to live in the desert with hemocyanin, as it’s been documented that spiders and scorpions live in the heat and their main oxygen-carrier is hemocyanin. however, vulcans are a lot bigger than spiders and scorpions. haemoglobin (our blood protein) is a lot more efficient in heat, and a lot less efficient in cold areas with minimal oxygen (star trek has stated that planet vulcan has a less oxygen dense atmosphere than earth- “Vulcan had a considerably higher gravity, thinner atmosphere, and higher temperatures than Earth”). But you know what is way more efficient in environments with low oxygen and cold weather? hemocyanin. so really, to be the most biologically fit, vulcans should live in the cold, possibly in or around water, like their earth buddies crustaceans, because in the heat they probably are going to suffer oxygen deprivation due to their large size. 

now, for my final little spiel about vulcans and their cool blood, i would like to draw your attention to cancer. now scientists have used blood from molluscs that contain hemocyanin and given it to some mice, and after the mice had this cool new blood in their system, scientists were like “bro! guess what! you get a brand new bladder tumour, courtesy of us!! hope the blood works haha.” luckily the mice with the blood from those specific molluscs showed a greater immunity* to the bladder tumours the scientists introduced. they didnt have as much growth, they didnt have so much toxic shit in their bodies as a side effect, and they in general survived longer. so what i’m saying is not only would vulcans probably be less likely to develop cancer, they could potentially help us humans after first contact find a viable treatment and cure to it (as long as they don’t think of the prime directive beforehand ahaha).

*look under the anticancer effects subheading

well i hoped you enjoyed my little post about the science behind the vulcans! if you know any better resources (that are free) please feel free to add your comments/links to the resources. just to quickly sum up: vulcans should have clear/blue blood, have super spooky skeletons on the outside of their bodies, live in cold, watery environments, and have the potential to cure cancer. 

I didn’t find the post it belonged to, but I found the picture from google. 

It appears there is another chemical composition that does create green blood (chlorocruorin). I’m not sure how inclusive the information on this post is but it would suggest vulcans have worms in their ancestry 😂

As you can see, the color of the pigment isn’t really dependent on the metal it’s based on. Iron based pigments can be red, green or violet. The color of a pigment is determined mostly by the electrons in double bonds and if they are conjugated or not. (conjugated means double bonds alternating with single bonds)

So while we have copper based blood which is blue on earth, it’s possible that Vulcans use copper in a completly different molecule which might be green and have better properties under high temperatures.

But I love the discussion here because blood is seriously amazing. And also because I thought the same about vulcans once haemocyanine came up in lectures.

if vulcans have worms in their ancestry they could have a distant relation to the symbionts. that’d be a cool thing to investigate in a trek series: how related everyone is. there’s a theory star trek uses that basically says that these humanoids went and put their dna on all planets in the galaxy so we’re all generally humanoid-ish due to their influence on the natural evolution of the different species. so maybe some species are more closely related due to less time to diverge? so vulcans could be related more to symbionts than klingons because the klingon homeworld didnt get the universal dna until later or at least at a different time to vulcans and symbionts? ahh i just really want to explore the science behind everything in the star trek universe. hopefully we meet aliens someday soon so i can do it in real life haha.

Thanks, now I’m nearly as angry at Star Trek cladistics as I am about fungal ones.

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