first response to The Queen’s Justice
The Queen’s Justice really nailed one of the major reasons I am so invested in Jon.
(This is mostly about Jon but a little bit more about me than I’m totally comfortable with? Oh well.)
I love both ASOIAF and Game of Thrones, and enjoy reading about Westeros history/analysis but every major blog/tumblr I encounter always spends a good chunk of their off time trashing the show for x or y. I am SO THANKFUL you don't. It's possible one can enjoy both books and show, and I accept not everything can be adapted from the pages of a book that are potentially endless to an hour a week on the tv screen.
Thanks! I’m glad you’re enjoying. And yeah, that dynamic doesn’t get any less weird.
I’m actually seeing this because I have a lot of show and book-to-show posts that I never quite finished and I’m trying to get some of them up, so, stay tuned.
Anonymous asked:
One of the reasons I love this blog so much is that unlike a lot of ASOIAF meta I read it doesn't seem to hate the show. Instead, you apply the same analytical lens to it as you do to the books. Thank you for understanding that different does not equal bad and that GoT has reasons for not being a 100% faithful adaptation of the source material.
Hey there, and thank you, I’m glad you’re enjoying!
Anonymous asked:
Do you think Stannis will sacrifice Shireen in the books?
The poor child is doomed, I’m afraid. She’s one of the few characters whose fate I’m pretty sure about. I don’t know if it will happen in quite the same way as it did in the show because she’s a few weeks’ ride north when Stannis marches on Winterfell, but the writing’s on the wall. Along with the mythological parallels, Stannis has been moving toward this ending of destroying his family in the name of his duty this whole time: he strung Robert out to dry as if he didn’t know the consequences of that, he killed Renly through Melisandre’s magic, he planned to kill Edric until Davos stopped him...it’s all going to come to a head in a way he can’t dodge.
Anonymous asked:
If you were the one adapting ASOIAF into a TV show what changes would you make so that It would be easier to film?
Wait another twenty years until VFX gets really cheap, maybe? It’s being adapted as well as it’s going to be adapted, but it would also be cool to see a soap opera-style transcription with the granular, immersive detail of the books. There’s a lot in there that’s neat to read, but not, like, $100,000 per minute neat, you know?
Anonymous asked:
It is frightening to think that Cat was only 34 when she died and Ned was 33. They were frigging kids themselves.
Yeah, the whole Rebellion generation died really young. When I read I still picture Ned as Sean Bean, but the person in AGOT is closer to Kit Harington.
Hi! I love your metas. Do you think that now that the show has made Jon Snow king it is likely that Robb's will will have some importance in the books?
Hi there, and thank you!
I wondered that too. The acclamation was a big enough checkpoint moment toward the eventual endgame that I doubt the show would add it. At least, Bloodraven did seem to see it coming, so we can’t say it was out of left field. Robb’s will is, at least logistically, a way for the books to get to the same place without the Battle of the Bastards.
it’s not about justice.
In my post about S6 I noted that the show leaned on some of Jon’s harder edges, but it’s worth noting that this didn’t start with his resurrection:
QHORIN: Mance is going to march on the Wall. When he does, one brother inside his army will be worth a thousand fighting against him.
JON: They’ll never trust me.
QHORIN: They might. If you do what needs to be done.
JON: What?
QHORIN: [shoves him] I should have known better, trusting a traitor’s bastard!
I’m not going to bother copying the relevant passages of the book, because they’re that much longer. It takes Qhorin a couple of pages of prodding until Jon agrees to go undercover. Even then it still doesn’t sink in what Qhorin expects him to do, and he can’t entirely commit to the fight until Ghost attacks for him. Show-Jon jumps right to whether it’s going to work.
The critical example, though, is really Mance. Like with Qhorin, the plot point is the same: Jon goes out to the King Beyond the Wall and is there when Stannis rides in. But how he got out there in the first place is a little bit different.
“My lord would have a better chance of reaching terms if he sent –“
“Terms?” Ser Alliser chuckled.
“Janos Slynt does not make terms with lawless savages, Lord Snow. No, he does not.”
“We’re not sending you to talk with Mance Rayder,” Ser Alliser said. “We’re sending you to kill him.” (Jon, ASOS)
Foul enough to slay a man in his own tent under truce. Must I murder him in front of his wife as their child is being born? (Jon, ASOS)
Sam: Where are we going?
Jon: Going to find Mance.
Sam: To fi... you can't do that. No one gave you any orders.
Jon: Who's left to give orders? The wildling army's only an army because of Mance. He united 100 warring tribes. Without Mance, they lose their leader. They lose their purpose. They go back to fighting each other. Scatter back to their homes.
Sam: Without Mance? You're going to kill him?
Jon: I'm gonna try. (4x9)
MANCE: You want to strike a bargain with me? Here's the bargain. You go back, you open the gates to us, and I swear to you that no one else will die. Refuse, and we'll kill every last man at Castle Black. [Jon reaches for his weapon.] Ah! Oh, that's why you're here. I reckon you could do it before any of them could stop you. They'd kill you, of course. They'd kill you slow. But you knew that when you came in here. Are you capable of that, Jon Snow? Killing a man in his own tent when he's just offered you peace? Is that what the Night's Watch is? Is that what you are? (4x10)
In the books, he’s ordered out there by Thorne and Slynt, who have been keeping him locked in an ice cell. It’s not his idea and he doesn’t want to do it, but he knows they’re just itching to execute him if he refuses. In the show, it’s Jon’s idea and Jon’s choice. Nobody makes him do it – in fact, Sam tries to stop him – and the only reservations he admits are about how effective he thinks this mission will be. This is both a more robust look at the character’s moral center, and a more ambiguous assessment of him.
And remember what this plan is: to assassinate a northern king by violating guest right. In the books, this is dramatic irony, because word of the Red Wedding hasn’t reached Castle Black yet. In the show, however, Jon has been living with that grief for months when he sets out to reenact his brother’s death.
The tweaks to his handling of Janos Slynt in the show still demonstrate that chilly decisiveness, but in this case it is a demonstration of a greater maturity. In the show, Jon frames the order to Greyguard as attractively as possible. It’s at a public meeting, immediately after turning the “latrine captain” position into a good-natured joke rather than using it to humiliate his adversaries, and then appointing Thorne First Ranger. Those are both gestures of good faith.
Book-Jon, however, sets the situation up to fail.
Half the morning passed before Lord Janos reported as commanded. Jon was cleaning Longclaw. Some men would have given that task to a steward or a squire, but Lord Eddard had taught his sons to care for their own weapons. When Kegs and Dolorous Edd arrived with Slynt, Jon thanked them and bid Lord Janos sit.
That he did, albeit with poor grace, crossing his arms, scowling, and ignoring the naked steel in his lord commander's hands. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.
"Lord Janos." Jon sheathed his sword. "I am giving you command of Greyguard."
That took Slynt aback. "Greyguard … Greyguard was where you climbed the Wall with your wildling friends …"…
I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. "You mistake me, my lord," Jon said. "That was a command, not an offer. It is forty leagues to Greyguard. Pack up your arms and armor, say your farewells, and be ready to depart at first light on the morrow."
"No." Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. "I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor's bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in King's Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind fools who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!"
Because the appointments he makes in the chapter are private, Slynt doesn’t know that other brothers are taking the command positions as opportunities. He doesn’t give Slynt context, just sits there sharpening his claw. (Slynt, who is from Kings Landing, isn’t going to pick up on the guest right symbolism, though it probably wouldn’t be better if he had.) Then he puts off on dealing with it until the next morning, “hop[ing] that a night’s sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses.” That’s cute.
Despite having done everything he could do to provoke a confrontation, he hasn’t committed himself to a response.
Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. “Please take Lord Janos to the Wall–“
—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.
—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?
"—and hang him," Jon finished.
In the show, he’s ready for it.
JON: Are you refusing to obey my order?
SLYNT: You can stick your order up your bastard ass.
JON: Take Lord Janos outside. Olly, get my sword.
Just the fact that show-Jon has to call for Longclaw speaks to the character operating from a more secure and conciliatory place than he does in the book, where he just happens to have his Valyrian steel “slung across his back” in the mess hall. Oh, what, not everyone brings their grenade launcher to breakfast?
The show also omits this moment of pure vindictiveness:
“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”
“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.
The smile that Lord Janos Slint smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.
Again, the same fundamental action, but less emotion-driven.
These comparisons don’t fundamentally change the character. The show can’t communicate his inner monologue, and even if it could it wouldn’t have the time. It’s a solid extrapolation which is consistent with the across-the-board age-up. Jon is 18 instead of 14 when he joins the Watch; he’s in his early 20s when he becomes Lord Commander, not a 17 year old kid. It would not be consistent characterization for Jon to make all the same decisions while having gained several years’ of psychological and even physical maturity. To the contrary, I think this is an interesting and underrated aspect of the character which may have been tempting for the show to elide, rather than to preserve and develop it like this.
There are important through-lines in these three instances. All three pivotal moments force him to contemplate killing a current or former brother of the Night’s Watch. Moreover, there’s a remarkably consistent line of reasoning he deploys.
JON: We need to ride north, and kill them all.
THORNE: We just went over this, boy- justice can wait.
JON: It's not about justice! I told the Wildlings we had over a thousand men at Castle Black alone. Karl and the others know the truth, as well as we do. How long do you think they'll keep that information to themselves when the Wildlings are peeling their fingernails off? Mance has all he needs to crush us- he just doesn't know it yet. As soon as he gets his hands on them, he will.
GRENN: And we just cower in here while they slaughter our Brothers-
EDD: The Brothers had orders to stay at Castle Black.
GRENN: Oh, so it's all right, then?! Black Jack and Keggs and Mully- chopped to pieces, 'cause they broke the rules?!
EDD: I didn't say it was all right. I'm saying they shouldn't have been there.
GRENN: We're pledged to guard the Realms of Men!
SAM: She's dead, because of me-
GRENN: We can't even guard Mole's Town!
JON: We can't go after them, you know that. It's what they want.
When Castle Black gets news of the mutineers’ survival or the raid on Mole’s Town, Jon is the only person not thinking about what’s right or fair, or who deserves what. It’s not because he’s better at controlling his impulses than most people, because he isn’t. It’s that this is an instinct the character is far more inclined to have than most people do.
Here’s how he articulates this in the books:
"Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a . . . a good purpose?"
"It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose." Jon looked at Sam. "I wouldn't advise it. You're not made to lie, Sam. You blush and squeak and stammer." (Sam, ASOS)
SAM: What do you think about a violation of an abstract moral convention?
JON: Ehhhhh...can you pull it off?
In a lot of ways it’s one of his best qualities. It’s why he is able to see past the thousands of years of enmity between the Watch and the wildlings to understand why they need each other. But it’s also….unsettling. It’s great.
Hi! I hope you're doing OK. I was wondering if, when you feel like coming back from hiatus, you'd mind sharing your thoughts on Jon Snow during season six of "Game of Thrones". I find your analysis of the show quite fascinating, especially in contrast to book fans that just think everything sucks in the TV series and that everything is absolutely 100% nonsensical and without a reason inside the show universe.
Iam saving some of this for a deeper dissection of the Northern storyline in S6,which I hope will be finished relatively soon.
+I’mgenerally supportive of the show sometimes smoothing the rougher edges of thecharacters, but I was a little bit surprised and impressed that the show didn’tshy away from Jon’s ruthless streak. He really did go too far when he executedOlly. The officers are one thing, they can’t be allowed to get away with whatthey did. But Olly isn’t any more culpable than the dozens of men he let off thehook – significantly less so, both because he’s a kid and because he hasn’ttaken the oath. Thorne, Marsh, and Yarwyck died because they killed Jon; Ollydied because he hurt Jon.
I hanged a boy! Younger than Bran.
Hey,you know who else was younger than Bran?
Rickon’sdeath implicates Jon in a really dark loop. Rickon dies of an arrow through theback – the same way Olly killed Ygritte.
Theshow actually goes further than the books have so far. ADWD shows Jonthreatening children, but he hasn’t actually been pushed to follow through onthose threats.
“You will make a crow of him.” Shewiped at her tears with the back of a small pale hand. “I won’t. Iwon’t.”
Killthe boy,thought Jon. “You will. Else I promise you, the day that they burn Dalla’s boy, yourswill die as well.”
“I insisted upon hostages.“ I am not the trusting fool you take me for …nor am I half wildling, no matter what you believe. "One hundred boysbetween the ages of eight and sixteen. A son from each of their chiefs andcaptains, the rest chosen by lot. The boys will serve as pages and squires,freeing our own men for other duties. Some may choose to take the black oneday. Queerer things have happened. The rest will stand hostage for the loyaltyof their sires.”
The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey.“Tormund has agreed to this?”
It was that, or watch his people die. “Myblood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”
“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stompedhis cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfelldemanded boys of us, but they were hostages,and none the worse for it.”
“None but them whose sires displeased theKings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by ahead. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, doyou have the belly to do what needs be done?”
Ask JanosSlynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem agreen boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of EddardStark.”
Andthat call and response of Olly and Rickon is one of the harsher aspects ofNed’s legacy. Look at what Ned did for Sansa and Jon, and then look at what hedid to Theon. Jon doesn’t know Ned as well as he thought, but he learned evenmore from Ned than he realized.
It’salways been odd to me that Jaime seems to get more flak for threateningEdmure’s child, who does not even technically exist yet, despite his innerreservation, than Jon does for his threats to Gilly’s baby or to his hundredwildling hostages. These are children. He sees their faces, he learns theirnames, and he doesn’t flinch. Sure, Jon comes out ahead of Jaime on an overallmoral comparison, but…fair’s fair, you know? This is scary stuff, and what Jon does is literally 100x scarier.
+Andoh, speaking of!
JONSNOW, TRAITOR AND OATHBREAKER: There’s no need for a battle. Thousands of mendon’t need to die. Only one of us. Let’s end this the old way, you against me.
RAMSAYBOLTON, LORD OF WINTERFELL AND WARDEN OF THE NORTH: I keep hearing storiesabout you, bastard. The way people in the North talk about you, you’re thegreatest swordsman who ever lived. Maybe you are that good. Maybe not. I don’tknow if I’d beat you. But I know my army will beat yours.
Wherehave we heard that one before?
JAIMELANNISTER, TRAITOR AND OATHBREAKER: We could end this war right now, boy, savethousands of lives. You fight for the Starks, I fight for the Lannisters.Swords or lances, teeth, nails, choose your weapons, and let’s end this hereand now.
ROBBSTARK, LORD OF WINTERFELL AND WARDEN OF THE NORTH: If we did it your way,Kingslayer, you’d win. We’re not doing it your way.
….Imean.
+Ona less morbid note, I really enjoyed the relationship between Jon and Davos.There’s this mutual unfinished business angle between them. Davos has a lot ofNed’s better qualities – loyal almost to a fault, though not to a point wherehe won’t step in when he thinks the people he cares about are wrong – but heisn’t blinkered by aristocratic privilege and personal trauma in the ways thatcomplicated Jon’s life so much. And Davos knows that Jon is someone Stannisliked, and I think he sees a lot of what he admired about Stannis in Jon.They’re waging a war together, but they’re also making peace with their pasts.
+Grumpylittle Baby Jon was so cute I can hardly stand it. MOTHER, WHO IS THISINTERLOPER? HE HAS DISTURBED OUR NAPTIME. AND THAT’S YOUR GRACE TO YOU, WEIRDSHAGGY MAN!
+With regards to the Pink Letter, I don’t really have aposition on which version is better storytelling,but the show’s presentation worked for me. The tensions that were the explicitmotivation behind Ramsay’s letter in the show were also the driving force oftensions at the Wall in ADWD. What changed was the precipitating cause ofMance’s mission to the PL, and the PL as precipitating cause for Jon’sassassination. We’re measuring out last straws here. The core issue behind the murder of a political authority daysafter they finalize a major peace agreement is not the dramatic resonanceof the perpetrators’ pretext for their actions. ADWD (though still my favoritebook in the series) leans far too hard for my liking on the idea that it is,and it was interesting to see a version of the story without that caveat.
+Kind of a late-game turnaround of Jon’s usual “no gooddeed goes unpunished” lifestyle, no? Vital deep-cover cover op? Dragged beforetribunal. Kill white walker? No one cares. Challenge xenophobia? Get stabbed.Beat nemesis half to death? KINGINNANORF! I’m sorry, that’s hilarious.
Jon: the white walkers are the real problem here
Jon to Jon: fucking Ramsay let’s get him
+I also really wasn’t expecting that last scene. JonSnow, King of Winter: long may he reign may the odds be ever in hisfavor.
(Andthank you, it’s nice to hear thatyou enjoy the show posts. I really have no argument about whether people “should” like something ornot, but….I’m still glad theGodfather books were adapted before this Era of the Hot Take. CAN YOU IMAGINE.)
This will be history, alive...
This isn’t something that I’d planned to put together. But maybe someone who’s flipping through tags is dragging their feet on doing the right thing today, and needs a new way into it. So if you’re someone who’s being dragged down with nebulous negativity and resentment about the next leader of the free world, take a new perspective and think about why.
I am not going to go entirely off-topic and make the affirmative case for Hillary Clinton. I happen to agree with the most enthusiastic and least equivocal arguments out there, but they’re already out there. Nor am I going to get too deep into the weeds on specific character comparisons.
This is, instead, a case for using fiction that is purposefully at a remove from the real world as a critical angle for introspection about assumptions we make about the real world. Think of it like a side-view mirror check: no matter how conscientiously you observe traffic laws, you have blind spots that you need to check.
Anonymous asked:
what do you think of series margaery?
Do you mean series as in the television series? She’s pretty true to what we know of book Margaery. The main differences are that we spent more time with her, which I liked, and that she’s aged up a few years like the rest of the cast, which was a good idea generally.
" “I don’t like the show.” is fair. But “the show is morally and artistically horrible because it never did [thing it actually did in a slightly different narrative circumstance]” is counterproductive. " I'm gonna need that sentence printed on a shirt or tattoo'd on my skin :'D
I do get frustrated sometimes. I love this story and so I want for there to be robustly critical conversation about it, all of it. I completely believe that media criticism is vital in and of itself, and can be at least as valuable as a way of gaining understanding of real world issues. So it disappoints me when fan commentary is written in the language of someone who’s capable of engaging with the issues the books and/or show raise, and then ends up being a refusal to engage, through selective denial of the text, or gleeful invention and attribution of motives, or whatever.
When…you can just not like something? You can dislike something on its own merits, or for absolutely no reason at all? You can make a judgment that weighs the pros and cons of a certain stance without outright denying the existence of countervailing evidence? You can change your mind or say “I’m not sure” or express an opinion that has nothing to do with the show or whatever? It’s really okay. There’s plenty of vital commentary - some of it quite critical - that isn’t D&D ARE THRALLS OF THE GREAT OTHER AND ALL OF THEIR DEEDS MUST BE EXPOSED AS TEMPTATIONS TO THE DARKNESS. You know? (I mean, obviously you know. But sometimes I wonder if people generally know.)
Arya has a difficult relationship with femininity and that’s okay
Suddenly Arya remembered the morning she had thrown the orange in Sansa’s face and gotten juice all over her stupid ivory silk gown. There had been some southron lordling at the tourney, her sister’s stupid friend Jeyne was in love with him. (ACOK, Arya IV)
A stupid princess, she thought, that’s nothing to cry over. (ACOK, Arya X)
The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. (ASOS, Arya II)
She had been better off as Squab. No one would take Squab captive, or Nan, or Weasel, or Arry the orphan boy. I was a wolf, she thought, but now I’m just some stupid little lady again. (ASOS, Arya III)
[S]he sat in the common room in her stupid girl clothes…..(ASOS, Arya V)
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. (ASOS, Arya XII)
“The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls,” Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. (AFFC, Arya I)
Is Arya correct in this instinct of hers? No. Does she have a right to feel this way? Absolutely.
In fact, I think it’s quite unfair to Arya to expect her to feel otherwise – whether by creating a bowdlerized version of the character who doesn’t think such things, or to rip on her when it becomes clear that she does. It’s certainly fair, laudable even, to challenge grown fans who embrace this mindset. But an important point that seems to get lost in those conversations is that gender conformity is by and large privileged over gender non-conformity. This is true for men and for women, but it is more crucial for women and girls because women’s social identities are assumed to be defined by gender in a way that men’s are not. Arya’s identity narrative is closely tied in with this tension in her experience between who she is and who she’s expected to be.
But the thing is that they never included that line about the woman being important too. They never have shown Arya getting along with other women, actually they made a point of making The Waif someone who she calls cunt and who she repeatedly contends with. They made a point of erasing any moment when she has had a positive interaction with a woman that is of the ‘accepted femininity’ like Lady Smallwood. They took away her demand of Jaqen to kill Chiswyck because of his disgusting retelling of Gregor’s rape of the 12 year-old girl and his own help in raping the girl. Like, that was a big moment and showed how much she wanted a predator like Chiswyck eliminated from hurting other girls. She chose him when his death really wouldn’t benefit her in the long run, because she does care about other females.They took away her positive interactions staying with the daughters of the Bravoosi fisherman. Like, I’m fine if they want to show her struggle with feminine identity but why erase these moments and important aspects of her personality? Arya definitely has inner conflict about who she is and who she is supposed to be in this misogynistic society, but what George does wonderfully and D and D do horribly, is that he allows her to be empathetic and understanding of other kinds of women. She doesn’t always get along with the ‘accepted feminine’ women but her interactions with Lady Smallwood and her mostly positive thoughts about that experience,show that she doesn’t instantly devalue a woman because she is conventional. The show version of Arya is a pale imitation of book Arya.
So I went back and forth on answering this because you’re either misunderstanding or misconstruing the post - why does it matter that the show didn’t transcribe that one specific line if it gave her an extended back-and-forth to that effect? Why does the substance matter so much less than the form? - but that comment about Cheswyck is actually an even better illustration of my point, so I’m going to jump on it.
Because the material elements of that incident did occur on the show, they just didn’t happen to Chiswyck at Harrenhal. They happened at the end of S5, when she stalked Meryn Trant down to a brothel where he was rejecting young girls for being “too old.” And again, if anything, the balance comes out in the show’s favor for numerous reasons:
- Unlike Chiswyck’s depravity, which was just there to show us that he was a bad guy in Tywin’s employ, which is not at all hurting for other bad guys, Meryn Trant’s abuse of the girls was a deliberate reminder of what he habitually did to Sansa.
- Arya posing as one of his intended victims is a demonstration of empathy for girls who are harmed by men, some of the most forceful symbolism that either medium allows. “Show, don’t tell” is hardly bad writing.
- I don’t love stating the obvious, but Arya doing the execution in question herself has very different and IMO preferable connotations than her asking a man to do it for her. Perhaps to redeem this point with a little more nuance, the comparison is especially instructive because Jaqen is a specific presence in both incidents. Show-Arya’s killing Meryn Trant in defiance of the HoBaW’s policy shows the character resisting the erasure of her own identity, which is happening under the supervision of a man on whom she used to have to depend for her protection and power.
Why doesn’t that count? Again, I’m not saying anyone has to like whatever part of either storyline. I’m saying that fandom often unfairly disqualifies Arya’s actions and experiences to justify its responses to the story, which, again, don’t require justification. “Meryn’s death didn’t work for me as well as Chiswyck’s” is totally fair, as indeed is “I don’t like the show.” But “the show is morally and artistically horrible because it never did [thing it actually did in a slightly different narrative circumstance]” is counterproductive.
asoiaframblingsandmore
“Counterproductive”? Like anything we do on Tumblr has anything to do with productivity. BTW, defending the show is pretty brave. Or dumb. Either is fine.
Well, counterproductive in the sense of, I assume people want to have a constructive conversation about the narrative and the issues it raises, and misrepresenting either the books or the show makes that a whole lot more difficult. (Though, you know what they say, “assume” makes an ass out of ....mostly me, I guess.)
I mean, the show hardly needs me defending it. GoT is probably the most popular show in the world. It’s coming off of the Emmy-winningest season of a drama in television history. Close scrutiny and passionate responses are completely - no, especially - merited for something with this level of cultural influence. If I’m defending anything, it’s the idea that there should be a space for good-faith conversations. I take issue with commentary which selectively acknowledges aspects of the books or show based on whether or not they validate this idea that Benioff and Weiss are morally and artistically bankrupt because that kind of crap gets in OUR way, not theirs.
zaldrizer-sovesi reblogged
Arya has a difficult relationship with femininity and that’s okay
Suddenly Arya remembered the morning she had thrown the orange in Sansa’s face and gotten juice all over her stupid ivory silk gown. There had been some southron lordling at the tourney, her sister’s stupid friend Jeyne was in love with him. (ACOK, Arya IV)
A stupid princess, she thought, that’s nothing to cry over. (ACOK, Arya X)
The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. (ASOS, Arya II)
She had been better off as Squab. No one would take Squab captive, or Nan, or Weasel, or Arry the orphan boy. I was a wolf, she thought, but now I’m just some stupid little lady again. (ASOS, Arya III)
[S]he sat in the common room in her stupid girl clothes…..(ASOS, Arya V)
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. (ASOS, Arya XII)
“The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls,” Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. (AFFC, Arya I)
Is Arya correct in this instinct of hers? No. Does she have a right to feel this way? Absolutely.
In fact, I think it’s quite unfair to Arya to expect her to feel otherwise – whether by creating a bowdlerized version of the character who doesn’t think such things, or to rip on her when it becomes clear that she does. It’s certainly fair, laudable even, to challenge grown fans who embrace this mindset. But an important point that seems to get lost in those conversations is that gender conformity is by and large privileged over gender non-conformity. This is true for men and for women, but it is more crucial for women and girls because women’s social identities are assumed to be defined by gender in a way that men’s are not. Arya’s identity narrative is closely tied in with this tension in her experience between who she is and who she’s expected to be.
But the thing is that they never included that line about the woman being important too. They never have shown Arya getting along with other women, actually they made a point of making The Waif someone who she calls cunt and who she repeatedly contends with. They made a point of erasing any moment when she has had a positive interaction with a woman that is of the ‘accepted femininity’ like Lady Smallwood. They took away her demand of Jaqen to kill Chiswyck because of his disgusting retelling of Gregor’s rape of the 12 year-old girl and his own help in raping the girl. Like, that was a big moment and showed how much she wanted a predator like Chiswyck eliminated from hurting other girls. She chose him when his death really wouldn’t benefit her in the long run, because she does care about other females.They took away her positive interactions staying with the daughters of the Bravoosi fisherman. Like, I’m fine if they want to show her struggle with feminine identity but why erase these moments and important aspects of her personality? Arya definitely has inner conflict about who she is and who she is supposed to be in this misogynistic society, but what George does wonderfully and D and D do horribly, is that he allows her to be empathetic and understanding of other kinds of women. She doesn’t always get along with the ‘accepted feminine’ women but her interactions with Lady Smallwood and her mostly positive thoughts about that experience,show that she doesn’t instantly devalue a woman because she is conventional. The show version of Arya is a pale imitation of book Arya.
So I went back and forth on answering this because you’re either misunderstanding or misconstruing the post - why does it matter that the show didn’t transcribe that one specific line if it gave her an extended back-and-forth to that effect? Why does the substance matter so much less than the form? - but that comment about Cheswyck is actually an even better illustration of my point, so I’m going to jump on it.
Because the material elements of that incident did occur on the show, they just didn’t happen to Chiswyck at Harrenhal. They happened at the end of S5, when she stalked Meryn Trant down to a brothel where he was rejecting young girls for being “too old.” And again, if anything, the balance comes out in the show’s favor for numerous reasons:
- Unlike Chiswyck’s depravity, which was just there to show us that he was a bad guy in Tywin’s employ, which is not at all hurting for other bad guys, Meryn Trant’s abuse of the girls was a deliberate reminder of what he habitually did to Sansa.
- Arya posing as one of his intended victims is a demonstration of empathy for girls who are harmed by men, some of the most forceful symbolism that either medium allows. “Show, don’t tell” is hardly bad writing.
- I don’t love stating the obvious, but Arya doing the execution in question herself has very different and IMO preferable connotations than her asking a man to do it for her. Perhaps to redeem this point with a little more nuance, the comparison is especially instructive because Jaqen is a specific presence in both incidents. Show-Arya’s killing Meryn Trant in defiance of the HoBaW’s policy shows the character resisting the erasure of her own identity, which is happening under the supervision of a man on whom she used to have to depend for her protection and power.
Why doesn’t that count? Again, I’m not saying anyone has to like whatever part of either storyline. I’m saying that fandom often unfairly disqualifies Arya’s actions and experiences to justify its responses to the story, which, again, don’t require justification. “Meryn’s death didn’t work for me as well as Chiswyck’s” is totally fair, as indeed is “I don’t like the show.” But “the show is morally and artistically horrible because it never did [thing it actually did in a slightly different narrative circumstance]” is counterproductive.
Arya has a difficult relationship with femininity and that’s okay
Suddenly Arya remembered the morning she had thrown the orange in Sansa’s face and gotten juice all over her stupid ivory silk gown. There had been some southron lordling at the tourney, her sister’s stupid friend Jeyne was in love with him. (ACOK, Arya IV)
A stupid princess, she thought, that’s nothing to cry over. (ACOK, Arya X)
The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. (ASOS, Arya II)
She had been better off as Squab. No one would take Squab captive, or Nan, or Weasel, or Arry the orphan boy. I was a wolf, she thought, but now I’m just some stupid little lady again. (ASOS, Arya III)
[S]he sat in the common room in her stupid girl clothes…..(ASOS, Arya V)
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. (ASOS, Arya XII)
“The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls,” Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. (AFFC, Arya I)
Is Arya correct in this instinct of hers? No. Does she have a right to feel this way? Absolutely.
In fact, I think it’s quite unfair to Arya to expect her to feel otherwise – whether by creating a bowdlerized version of the character who doesn’t think such things, or to rip on her when it becomes clear that she does. It’s certainly fair, laudable even, to challenge grown fans who embrace this mindset. But an important point that seems to get lost in those conversations is that gender conformity is by and large privileged over gender non-conformity. This is true for men and for women, but it is more crucial for women and girls because women’s social identities are assumed to be defined by gender in a way that men’s are not. Arya’s identity narrative is closely tied in with this tension in her experience between who she is and who she’s expected to be.
asoiaframblingsandmore
I liked this before I read through to the bottom. I still like it, just not as much. My issues are: 1) “ad hominem” means attacking the person instead of the argument. It simply does not apply to any of the criticisms I’ve read of the show. (One could argue that my explanation of why D&D don’t get ASOIAF is ad hominem - they’re Jewish, GRRM is lapsed RC - but I respectfully disagree.) 2) Those of us who think the show is extremely frequently misogynist, bigoted, racist, and just badly written are not in any way attempting to bash book Arya, show Arya, Maisie Williams, or any of those not responsible for writing bigoted garbage. No offense, but that accusation veers on another fallacy: straw man. Regardless, this post is extremely well-written and well thought out. I appreciate it and its author greatly.
I’m honestly puzzled as to where you’re getting “no criticisms of the show are made in good faith” from the end of that post, which I think I did make clear was about “some of these particular complaints about this specific scene are made without regard for these important bits of context.” Commentary which is moderately proficient with the terminology we use to discuss important issues like sexism or other kinds of bias can nonetheless be misleading. Normally I’d link to examples, but I have a general policy of not engaging with commentary when I question its good faith, so I guess it’s up to you if you’ll take my word for it or not that I’ve seen a troubling amount of “D&D made Arya hate women because they suck!!!” complaints with some or all of the problems that I discussed above.
Which, sometimes people are wrong! It’s fine. I don’t expect real people to be perfect any more than I expect Arya to be perfect. I simply don’t think that such things should go without being challenged, either, which was my intent here. Even if the show were unmitigated “bigoted garbage” - I don’t know that I accept the premise that GoT is materially worse than most mass media, including the books, in this regard, but for the sake of argument - it would still be important to hold ourselves accountable for our own commentary.
I’m quite impressed that you’ve managed not to see ANY criticisms of the show which are made either in ignorance or bad faith, however; you’re doing a much better job curating your fandom experience than I am, I’m afraid.
(This is a bit off-topic for this post, but I’d be interested as to what you think Benioff and Weiss are failing to capture about Martin’s disenchanted Catholicism, if you ever felt like writing about it someday. I come from a similar religious background as Martin does, which is part of why the books struck a chord with me, but I haven’t noticed the show missing the aspects of the story which pinged me from that angle.)
Arya has a difficult relationship with femininity and that’s okay
Suddenly Arya remembered the morning she had thrown the orange in Sansa's face and gotten juice all over her stupid ivory silk gown. There had been some southron lordling at the tourney, her sister's stupid friend Jeyne was in love with him. (ACOK, Arya IV)
A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. (ACOK, Arya X)
The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. (ASOS, Arya II)
She had been better off as Squab. No one would take Squab captive, or Nan, or Weasel, or Arry the orphan boy. I was a wolf, she thought, but now I'm just some stupid little lady again. (ASOS, Arya III)
[S]he sat in the common room in her stupid girl clothes…..(ASOS, Arya V)
But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all. (ASOS, Arya XII)
"The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls," Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. (AFFC, Arya I)
Is Arya correct in this instinct of hers? No. Does she have a right to feel this way? Absolutely.
In fact, I think it’s quite unfair to Arya to expect her to feel otherwise – whether by creating a bowdlerized version of the character who doesn’t think such things, or to rip on her when it becomes clear that she does. It’s certainly fair, laudable even, to challenge grown fans who embrace this mindset. But an important point that seems to get lost in those conversations is that gender conformity is by and large privileged over gender non-conformity. This is true for men and for women, but it is more crucial for women and girls because women’s social identities are assumed to be defined by gender in a way that men’s are not. Arya’s identity narrative is closely tied in with this tension in her experience between who she is and who she’s expected to be.
A King’s Shadow Shifting: Reexamining Stannis, part 4
This series will wrap up with a look at the adaptation of Stannis from book to show.