Select Jim Lee art from the 90s crossover “Killer Instinct”!

All of the splash pages are moving against the page flow. The focal character is either attacking or looking the wrong way. It’s not experimental or innovative. It’s wrong. Yeah, Voodoo looks beautiful in that dress. And Warblade attacking whoever on that gatefold is eye catching. But Voodoo is turned the wrong way for the story flow, making the reader’s eyes focus on what came before her, and Warblade is attacking what came before that gatefold splash as well. This is why I criticize Jim Lee. This is why I don’t post his work. His artwork is pretty, but it is antithetical to storytelling.

Exactly this. 

I’ll be honest, I appreciated his design aesthetics, but I always found Lee’s storytelling a bit confusing and hectic. I always preferred Silvestri more (tho, to be honest, he wasn’t a whole lot better).

Of those early Image guys, Silvestri is probably the best at this style of artwork.

The best of that group overall is probably Erik Larsen. And ya’ll need to be a lot nicer to Rob Liefeld - he’s the most prolifically creative guy in that group. Dozens, if not hundreds of original characters and concepts. Rob is not as technically proficient as Jim Lee, so Rob became the joke of the Image founders. Rob has created more characters than Jim, and Rob’s creations are better characters from a writer’s perspective.

I have to disagree. Jim Lee takes the cake, I love Silvestri, But I feel like Jim Lee’s aesthetic is tighter, fresher and more dynamic. I agree with the storytelling aspects though, Another spot Silvestri excels is covers. His X-men run had some of the most prolific covers in comic history.

Also...Liefeld 'creating hundreds of original characters' is a stretch. I will agree his work rate was pretty stellar and I while I don't love his art, he got the job done. But he had a tendency to re-skin characters a lot. Wolverine, Deadpool and Cable to be specific.

Jim Lee is basically the reason fanboys created the word “toyetic”. His designs are market ready and can be replicated across multiple mediums - as advertising, as merchandise (toys, etc.) - and as posters. He is the master of the 90s pinup. Since moving to DC, where he as a team of editors around him, his storytelling is... better.

The most memorable characters he has created are Gambit and Jubilee. They are “reskins” of each other. Early 90s stereotypes in trench coats that throw special effects. The WildC.A.T.s are obvious “reskins” of the X-Men.

Everything Marc did at TopCow was completely unique. He and his protege, Michael Turner, basically created the 90s cheesecake genre with the Darkness and Witchblade.

And Rob. Well, Rob’s work kinda sucks, lol. He’s not a particularly great draftsman, and he is kind of a flake when it comes to completing projects. I think if he had been able to build a good relationship with an Inker, his work would be much better received. He sells books though. Relentlessly. And I have lost track of how many original characters he created. He was taking meetings action figures of his original characters in the early 90s. In the “So Much Damage” documentary about the image founders, Rob talks about how he managed to be late to a movie pitch meeting with Tom Cruise looking to play one of the Youngblood characters. Rob is making the exact comics that he wanted to make when he was 10 years old. And he has never really grown out of that.

As for Jim? Nicest guy in the business. And he deserves his success. Every bit of it.

As a pure sketch artist, I am gonna stick with my pick though. Marc is the best natural comic book artist of his contemporaries. He combines that sketchy, energetic style of the early ‘90s with a rock-solid understanding of how to tell stories with pictures. And that puts him head and shoulders above most of the Image founders, maybe excepting Erik Larsen.

Rob Liefeld 1996 - Rob Liefeld 2019

Always improve your craft.

Character (artist) arc.

Reverse RCDart

Does anybody out there know how old Rob was when he first started comic books professionally.

He was fucking 16 with no formal lessons.

He was a fucking undisciplined 16 year old making Marvel Comics money hand-over-fist and they didn’t give a shit about his quality as long as he kept making them money.

Ain’t nobody trying to push him to be better when they could just gas him up and use it for everything they could get out of him.

Also for those who want to talk about him being arrogance I once again refer to the fact that he was fucking 16 and already living the dream and like I said before there was no shortage of Yes Man ready to use with what they can get.

Also how hot were any of you at 16.

For more on the man I recommend the following.

Lmao the last argument is gold🤣👌🏻

Believe it or not that’s none of my concern. However I would still take 10 of him over what we have now.

Yea , y'all got that shit.

Linkara’s gonna need to update his theme song, because Liefeld is absolutely an artist compared to this^^^

And I think someone at the beginning of this post already pointed out the big difference.

An actual artist will work to improve themselves.

While and egotistical hack will make excuses and blame everyone else.

Rob Liefeld and Matt Yackey Hawk and Dove #6 (2012) Source

“Cover shows Batman and Dove in a slightly altered position from the final cover (Both heroes heads were redone in a more straight forward gaze for the final cover)”

Rob should be plotting and doing layouts. His finished work is passable, but not great. His strengths lie in his “Liefeld-Esque” style of storytelling. Laugh all you want, but the guy gets work consistently.

So just imagine if a talented up and comer was lightboxing his work and making his figure layouts work with better detail and more focus on anatomy. He’d have a steady stream of finishers, and a few stars would find their niche.

Marc Silvestri hired background guys for years. That’s what Top Cow was. It was Marc Silvestri’s AAA Ball team. Michael Turner and Francis Manapul came out of that pool.

Liefeld should be doing the same thing. I think it’s partially about his ego. He shouldn’t be doing finishes. His bombastic and enthusiastic approach is worth disseminating though.

30 years ago this weekend, Chicago Comic Con featured appearances by all seven founders of Image Comics.  At this point during the summer of 1992, Youngblood and Spawn had already been launched with record-breaking sales results and anticipation was high for the new Image titles that would come out during the balance of the year.

32 years ago this weekend!

the New Mutants, Vol. 1 Annual # 7 Page 60, by Rob Liefeld.

Cable by Rob Liefeld, with Colors by Steve Buccellato.

the Deadpool trading card, by Rob Liefeld.

this was one of the trading card options that was included in the polybagged first printing of X-Force # 1.

Rob Liefeld's Hawk and Dove #1

Knowing Rob’s tendencies as an artist, pairing him with an Writer/Inker like Karl Kesel is an inspired choice. This was Rob’s idea for a cover, to be sure. It’s pure Liefeld. Kesel makes it work better than Rob can on his own though. I’m almost tempted to say Liefeld produced the layout, and Kesel finished this. Rob has good instincts, and a very recognizable design sense. It’s his execution that people criticize.

Okay so I keep seeing people unironically posting this on my timeline all the time

I just wanna clear something up about it

1)It is an undoubtedly bad drawing, yes, the rule of art is generally “it’s wrong if it looks wrong” and this clearly looks wrong 2) The person who did that draw-over doesn’t have a much better grasp of anatomy and, I’m going to assume, isn’t very familiar with what bodybuilders look like

The Liefeld drawing was referenced from this photograph of Arnold Schwarzenegger;

this is a pretty common bodybuilding pose and photography technique, to do these slight upshots to emphasize the size of the chest as much as possible. You can find a million photos of even just Arnie striking this exact pose in different situations;

The thing about competitive bodybuilders is that their dimensions are so outside the realm of what the average person is accustomed to that they can look “out of proportion” in real life. Parts of the body that can’t change size like the head and hands appear comparatively small, and the girth of limbs can make them appear shorter than they really are

(In order these guys are Ronnie Coleman, Moustafa Ismail, Daniele Seccarecci, and Jay Cutler if you want a source) side note, comments about the body type being “unattractive” aren’t necessary in this conversation, bodybuilding on this scale is a form of body modification, akin to being heavily pierced or tattooed. In other words, they aren’t doing it for you.

The problem is, if you make art referencing a body type that appears out-of-proportion to the layman and don’t fudge the scale of individual elements to make it seem stylistically balanced, it will look wrong to the audience. You can show someone a tracing of a body like this and it will more than likely appear more “wrong” to them than a version taking artistic license to enlarge the hands and feet and enlongate the limbs to something the contextually feels correct.

Honestly, it is technically possibly to fit a fairly correctly proportioned human arm behind that shield;

The wrist on a human body is about even with the groin when the arm is out straight, there’s room to fit a limb that long behind the shield. But the arm looks incorrect for a number of reasons; The chest wouldn’t appear at that angle if his far arm wasn’t wrapped around to hold his wrist like it was in the reference, the shield obscures line of his spine which causes his midriff to look massively thick, hiding the forearm behind the shield emphasizes how comparatively short the limb would feel even if the proportions were perfectly accurate, and the star on the shield causes viewers to assume at a glance that his arm is bent (if you look at the shield assuming the first point clockwise from the top is the actual top of the star it looks more in-proportion, but you have to stop and think about it so the drawing has already failed)

If you were to dump the shield and put the arms in a position that matches the way the chest is flexed, it makes a lot more sense what he was going for;

Which honestly isn’t even outside the realm of what actual human bodies can potentially look like;

I know this drawing is a long dead horse that everyone is sick of seeing beaten, but I wanted to throw this out there because hey, it’s a good example of what liberties to be mindful of taking when you work from references.

Still doesn’t change my dislike for Liefelds work but this explanation has softened my opinion about this drawing, at least.

Couple things to add.

Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld are conceptually very, very similar artists. Same aesthetics, same tendencies, same shitty storytelling. The difference is that Jim Lee is more disciplined, and Jim has consequently been able to build a relationship with an inker of Scott Williams’ caliber.

Next. The infamous drawing of Cap that is above pictured and debated was never published in any way shape or form. It was an in-house drawing that got circulated amongst the pre-internet fandom of regional fanzines.

Yeah. The drawing sucks. And, honestly, Rob’s biggest problem is that he is a flake.

But. Go meet Rob at a convention. Go. Watch the image comics so much damage documentary. Go and meet Rob. He’s a great guy that is making the exact comics that 10 year old Rob Liefeld wanted to make.

Jim Lee is a corporate tool that creates soulless crap.

Jim Lee is the Michael Bay of comics. Explosions, babes, cool robots, and a stupid goddamn story. Reread Batman Hush. It’s pretty. It’s fast. And it’s not a good story. It’s vapid. It’s empty calories. It’s the fucking MICHAEL BAY Batman Movie.

Rob? Rob knows you think he’s a shit artist. Rob knows you make fun of him in the chat rooms. And he’s still making more comics than you.

Go meet him. Rob is one of the best guys to meet at a convention. Nice, funny, contagiously enthusiastic, and he created Deadpool and Cable.

pages from Deathmate: Prologue by Barry Windsor-Smith, with Inks by Jim Lee, and Colors by Joe Chiodo.

Remember the time when Solar and Void banged so hard that they destroyed the entire universe? 😈

I remember an incredibly beautiful prologue issue of a comic book, followed by months of waiting between each issue, and then Valiant folded amongst a shit-storm of controversy, and the whole comic book collectors market went belly up.

In a few short months, everything awesome about the ‘90s comics turned into everything horrible about the ‘90s comics.

Valiant in the ‘90s represented both the best and then the worst of that era.

GORGEOUS artwork. Flat out, some of the prettiest stuff ever published, using the best available publishing qualities. The paper, the colors, all of it was top notch. With BWS as the art director.

The writing was equally fantastic. Valiant scared the crap out of Marvel and DC when it debuted, because Jim Shooter had all of the best talent in the industry working together in a brand new, completely cohesive universe that was designed from day one to work as a fully formed line of stories. All of the ships sailing in the same direction.

Deathmate was a crossover promotion with Image.

Everybody wanted to make money by combining the hottest new property on the shelves - Valiant - with the highest selling artists on the shelves: the Image founders.

And it was a complete shit-show.

The Image founding artists were famous for their sales records in the public eye. From the publishers’ point of view, they were famous for missed deadlines.

Rob Liefeld is notoriously undependable for monthly books. Jim Valentino reportedly had to fly over-night in order sit in a hotel room and make Rob finish pages of Deathmate so he could ink them. Seriously.

Jim Lee needed about a year of lead-time to get Batman: Hush on the shelves as a monthly.

Marc Silvestri once told the story of how he got hired by Marvel: TL, DR-he lied to the portfolio reviewer about how long a single pinup took him to complete (he said it was a single day, it was more like a week). And to this day, Marc uses a studio of understudies to finish his backgrounds. That’s how Mike Turner got his start: backgrounds for Silvestri.

I loved the first iteration of Valiant, but it’s bittersweet.

I do remember hearing about the chronic lateness of Image books. I also recall that Liefeld’s issue of the crossover, Deathmate Red, came out after the entire event was already over! Very unprofessional.

Yep. Read the credits on Comics.org for the Deathmate tie-in books. All dream-teams, and every book was late. One of the issues had a cover by Joe Quesada, with Inks by Marc Silvestri.

Pretty artwork, but unprofessional attitudes are what killed the popularity of Deathmate. Readers lost interest, and both publishers lost a lot of money. Talent costs money, and when the talent does not come through, it turns opportunity into a risky venture, and then it snowballed into a disaster. Lots of variant covers with different colors of chromium holofoil, and the whole thing just imploded. I know store owners that had multiple longboxes full of variant covers that sold on NBD for over a hundred bucks, and those same variants became worthless almost over-night. Deathmate was the death of Valiant’s first run of comics, and it weirdly heralded the end of the ‘90s comics boom, which culminated in Marvel Comics going bankrupt under Bob Harras.

Fans today have a weird nostalgia for ‘90s comics that I, as a fan that grew up reading during those years, do not understand. I get why they were popular, but I also remember the context of those books. I lost interest in comics by the time the Onslaught crossover happened at Marvel. I was not surprised when they went bust.

I came back to the fold in College, and the people that complain about Joe Quesada’s tenure as Marvel’s EIC clearly do not remember the Bob Harras years.

Serialized Comic book stories reflect the culture of their time. They don’t create it. They reflect it. Context is therefore inherently vital to understanding comic book stories and illustrative artwork. It’s not just what pictures are pretty, it’s why and how those pictures came about, and the stories being published are often the tip of the iceberg for what was happening on the creative end of things.

As for Rob, I defend that guy as much as I can, but he habitually makes it difficult for his fans to defend him. His comics are fun to read. They are mindless, and the artwork is pretty much awful, but it makes me feel like I’m 10 years old.

Rob’s artwork is not great, but from what I have heard and read over the years, the real problem is that he is unprofessional. He is hard to work with, notoriously slow to produce, and there are numerous reports of him being shady when it comes to payment.

Rob’s work is like that classic Woody Allen joke: “The food here is terrible! And such small portions!”

That being said, I love the guy. He’s awesome in person, and he is enthusiastic and he has created some great stuff.

Context. It’s all about context.

Rob Liefeld’s line art for the 5 X-Force trading cards that were polybagged inside X-Force #1 (1991)

Cable by John Romita, Jr. and Tom Smith from the frontispiece for the Cable Classic Vol. 1 TPB (2008) 

Here is John’s original artwork for this piece:

It was originally published as inside of Cable: Blood and Metal # 1. It was kinda weird. A gatefold vertical poster, printed horizontally on the inside covers -front and back- of the first issue.

They colored it and published it as a poster too.

Gotta love that JRJR being asked to do his version of the Rob Liefeld and style works better than Rob Liefeld could manage on his best day. “Cable: Blood and Metal” came out shortly after Liefeld jumped ship and went to Image. It was published because Marvel wanted to maintain the sales successes of Liefeld’s X-Force book. Marvel rushed out Cable: Blood and Metal right after Liefeld’s departure was announced. It was planned as a 4 issue Liefeld mini. It was published as a 2 oversized issue JRJR book. And it looks so freaking bonkers that it’s awesome. Nutty, nutty book.

JRJR was asked to pump out a 4 issue mini in a pinch. It wound up as an artistic hallmark for Johnny. The mental image of Cable with the ridiculously large guns and pouches kind of originated with this mini. It’s dumb, but a lot of fun.

JRJR dumbing himself down and upping the ante on the ridiculous pouches to copy the “Liefeld style” was actually more artistically sound than anything Rob ever did.