Stronger Than You

daily reminder to distrust those in whom the urge to punish is strong

i notice ppl who are left wing say this type of thing a lot and honestly i dont really understand it. i cant seem to put my finger on what ppl who say this are actually meaning. i feel like im missing smth

ofc ppl who say this type of thing arent a monolith. ppl who say similar things dont always intend for those things to have the same meaning as each other. but tributary, if youre willing, could you explain what this sentiment means to you?

heres where im hung up, if it helps you explain what you mean better: arent ‘punishment’ and ‘fair negative consequences for your actions’ pretty much the same thing? a domestic abuser no longer being allowed to see the kids he beats is being punished but hes also facing fair consequences for his actions. someone white getting fired for calling his black coworker the n-word is, by the dictionary definition of punishment, being punished. so is a child rapist getting sent to prison. should we not give ppl negative consequences if they hurt someone?

im sorry if i sound really stupid. english isnt my first language. i just want to understand this belief since i see and hear it all the time and it really confuses me

when i say this, at least, i am making a distinction between (1) "we should take steps to stop people who are hurting others from being able to hurt others" and (2) "people who do bad things should have bad things done to them".

examples of (1): i hit my children, and am no longer allowed to see them. i use a racial slur at work to a coworker, and am fired. <- these things might feel like punishments to me, because i want to see my children / i want to work so i have money, but the focus in doing them is not to punish me, but to keep the other people safe - i can no longer abuse my children or my coworker.

examples of (2): i hit my children, and so i get publicly beaten in return. i use a racial slur at work to a coworker, and am put in solitary confinement for five days. <- these are punishments. they do not materially make anyone i have hurt safer (i can still see my children; i can still go to work with my coworker), because the assumption that people won't do something if they know they'll get hurt for it is simply not true (we have a lot of good evidence that hurting people doesn't make them change their behaviour, other than trying harder not to get caught).

of course, there's the option to do (1) and (2). i could be banned from seeing my kids, and also publicly beaten, but... why? why do we need (2), if we are already doing (1)? what does (2) do to materially make my children (or other children, for that matter, or anyone) safer?

and that's what "don't trust people who want to punish" is getting at, because the urge to punish is often really strong - especially in christian, especially evangelical christian, spaces, where there's this internalised "if you sin you go to hell" logic. people get hurt, and then they often turn around and say "well the person who hurt me should be hurt too", rather than "i don't want this person to be able to hurt me or others any more".

the problem with that is that like... well then we just end up in a cycle of hurting people for hurting others, which has negative consequences for everyone involved. as opposed to consequences happening that make everyone safer, and then rehabilitation efforts to stop people being hurt/doing hurting again. and it's also the same problem as the eternal "well it's okay to do X to Y group" (e.g. it's okay to remove voting rights from felons) - you are then motivated to turn anyone you want to do X to into a member of Y group (e.g. mass criminalisation (felonisation?) of black people via racially-selective policing and lawmaking). you start being led by "i want to do X to Y" as a knee-jerk response, rather than "what do we need to do to keep people safe?". violence becomes acceptable as long as it's for the Right Reasons.

tl;dr "punishment" and "your actions having consequences that you do not enjoy" do not mean the same thing here; there's a difference in the motivation of the person doing the punishing/consequences, and this quote-thing is arguing that that's important.

footnotes to this below the cut (bc they got longer than the actual post):

@hoodienanami they beat me to the punch here, but this is a really good explanation that i’m going to keep as a reference. thank you @sparxflame.

The thing is, until you get past the mindset of "justice=punishment" you will never be able to create lasting change. We have actual proof that punitive justice creates more crime and makes criminals more violent. We have actual proof that rehabilitation reduces crime and recidivism. But some of y'all are so stuck on this idea that the wrongdoer must be punished for justice to be done that you will choose sating your need for revenge over actually moving toward a better world every time. And that's sad!

Everyone in the notes saying punishment doesn't undo the bad thing: exactly! Punishment does not create or preserve healing, prevention, protection, fairness, or goodness. The only thing punishment does is satisfy a sadistic public desire for revenge and give us the illusion of control.

it's really funny to me that the endpoint of the cigarette companies lying to the public for ages wasn't them being banned, it was them being forced to print "this product is poison that will kill you" on everything they sold

Honestly I've always been really curious why the massive anti-smoking campaigns of the last ~50 years have worked so well. Especially compared to, like, every other anti-drug campaign that was attempted over the same period. Is it just 'keep it legal but make it impossible to advertise and tax the hell out of it' is more effective than actual banning, or what?

I put to you that a product is infinitely cooler if it is banned and super duper illegal for anybody (ESPECIALLY teenagers, wink) to get their hands on.

Buying something perfectly legal from a multi-million-dollar corporation, which has a label on it saying "This product sucks, don't buy it" just doesn't have that cool or edgy or rebellious feeling behind it.

legally-mandated cringe

This is basically what people who advocate for safe use centers want to do with currently illegal drugs. They're much less fun if you do them in a clinic-style setting with a nurse watching over you.

Current harm reduction aims are actually more person-centered than that. It’s more about advocating for safe use—most people aren’t using illegal drugs for fun, they’re using them to cope with something.

Providing syringe access points/monitored drug centers make sure that:

Support drug decriminalization, syringe access points and safe use centers!! People are going to use drugs regardless, lets keep them alive long enough to get treatment!

(CW: Subtance Abuse) A lot of people on this hellsite (rightfully) look up to John Mulaney for a number of reasons, so with the news of his return to rehab to handle SUD-related issues, please be kind to yourself and to anyone you know who’s struggling with addiction.

Addiction is not a weakness or a character flaw. Sobriety is often a lifelong endeavor. John Mulaney has been candid about his substance abuse in the past; he’s been working on his sobriety for over 15 years. He isn’t any weaker for a relapse, and his desire to go into rehab is commendable and honestly brave. He is absolutely still a person to look up to: his worth as a person has not “changed” with this revelation.

Addiction is isolating in regular conditions. Given the hell year we’ve had, where our existence has become even further defined by distance and isolation, people who are struggling with substance abuse and addiction are probably even more isolated than ever. Be kind to yourself, and be kind to any loved ones who are feeling isolated or struggling with SUD.

For US friends, here’s the SAMHSA resources page — their referral service doesn’t require insurance and is completely confidential. If you don’t have insurance, they can get you in contact with state sponsored offices; they also have a directory to search for programs.

(If anyone has more info on how to seek counseling and rehab for addiction with/without insurance, please add it in the notes!)

While I wish John Mulaney the best as a fellow human and want to thank him for all the happiness he’s brought me with his comedy, I don’t want him to work on his sobriety simply because I want to hear his next comedy special. I don’t want anyone’s battle for sobriety to be framed in terms of how they can return to their normal function, to their “usefulness” to society. I just want him to be happy and healthy with his wife and his dog and himself, full stop. I’d like to remind everyone that nobody — Mulaney, me, or the person reading this — ever, ever owes anyone a joke or a smile.

Stay safe and healthy this winter !