Dead Soul

the way Alexander the Great literally just kinned Achilles a little too hard? Like that’s all it was?? He read the Iliad and based his entire personality on Achilles like “yup! he’s me! going to conquer SO MUCH LAND NOW AND BE THE GREATEST WARRIOR😼😼😼😼”

Was reading Mary Renault's fire from Heaven( had to put it on hold, I need to know more about Greece at that time before continuing with this one) and he's calling his teacher(?) Lysimachos, Phoenix like Achilles' Phoenix.

In this kid Alexander says, "he'd have went to war if Lysimachos asked him" ( that council where Phoenix tried to make Achilles fight in the war again, told him story of Cleopatra and her husband (don't remember his name rn fuck) and Achilles didn't listen, didn't budge)

Fire from heaven, Mary Renault.

This is great because it also raises:

1. Alexander’s claim of divine descent— which is an attribute shared with Achilles (son of Thetis) (the personality change of Alex after this which is similar to Achilles’ own pride and even, at times, anger).

2. Alexander’s referencing of Achilles through out his campaigns (for example, anointing Achilles’ tombstone at Troy)

3. His being “bent [more on] action and glory than either upon pleasure and riches. (plutarchs lives volume IV).”

4. Him treating his soldiers in such a way that Achilles would when they mutinied in India (no reference, typing this as my Greek history teacher yaps about this exact thing)

So many things this man did and the decisions he made were literally bc of Achilles like the dude slept with the damn Iliad under his pillow 😭😭

That 4th point, I'm from India and I'm 97% sure I've read about it and yet I don't remember 😭(this feels so wrong)

Have you read this series btw?

That man really decided I'd conquer everything and be a legend just like Achilles 😭

the way Alexander the Great literally just kinned Achilles a little too hard? Like that’s all it was?? He read the Iliad and based his entire personality on Achilles like “yup! he’s me! going to conquer SO MUCH LAND NOW AND BE THE GREATEST WARRIOR😼😼😼😼”

Was reading Mary Renault's fire from Heaven( had to put it on hold, I need to know more about Greece at that time before continuing with this one) and he's calling his teacher(?) Lysimachos, Phoenix like Achilles' Phoenix.

In this kid Alexander says, "he'd have went to war if Lysimachos asked him" ( that council where Phoenix tried to make Achilles fight in the war again, told him story of Cleopatra and her husband (don't remember his name rn fuck) and Achilles didn't listen, didn't budge)

Fire from heaven, Mary Renault.

Sometimes when I read posts that go

"MM was trying to impose her heteronormative views on Patrochilles by making Patroclus feminine, in the iliad both were very masculine warriors"

I have the desire to just go and say

📣"In your pursuit of accusing MM of imposing heteronormative views you have failed to recognize that you yourself are imposing modern views of masculinity, femininity and sexuality into the Iliad

As not only these things weren't the same in the context of the Iliad, but also you don't recognize the multiple times where the narrator compares both Achilles and Patroclus to feminine things

Even Achilles compares himself multiple times to a motherly figure, and Patroclus takes the role of the wife by doing household duties during the embassy plus the famous comparison between him and Cleopatra in the Meleager story, while later Achilles takes the role of the closest female relative in Patroclus's funeral

Now, the role Achilles fulfills in the funeral could be interpreted as either a wife or a mother. And the concept of Achilles acting as Patroclus's mother might seem weird to a modern audience, but I think it reflects the sentiment Andromache expressed to Hector in book 6 "Hektor, thus you are father to me, and my honored mother, you are my brother, and you it is who are my young husband." So she's basically saying that Hector is everything to her; the most important and loved person in her life. Likewise Achilles and Patroclus are everything to each other, including father, mother, brother, and maybe even wife and husband

And so while the criticism of forcing heteronormative dynamics to Patroclus and Achilles is valid (criticism I personally don't think applies to tsoa, but that's another post) The idea of both Achilles and Patroclus taking what today we consider a hypermasculine role in their relationship to each other isn't just anachronistic but also inaccurate and it seems more likely that both performed a mix of femininity and masculinity within their relationship

Also, womp womp"

my problem isn't with what is in tsoa(I mean I've but not patroclus' character, it's thetis but yeah different matter)

My problem is that it's wrong to categorise him only as a healer. A 𝙝𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙚𝙧 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙗𝙚 𝙖 𝙛𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙖𝙨 𝙬𝙚𝙡𝙡!

Patroclus was a fighter and still kind, gentle soul. He deserved to be that. He deserves to kill, who knows how many Trojans he killed In Iliad.. He did not deserve the character assassination where he killed Sarpedon, Zeus' Son, by fucking mistake. He.bloody.did.not. and i hated that.

Patroclus died and it is achilles fault but not in the way Briseis says it is. Honestly the way I was shaking, crying and laughing while reading that.

“How could you have let him go? You knew he could not fight!” like sir? Gods I hated her when she said this! Though other things she said were certainly not wrong.

Achilles is not ready to leave patroclus' body next day and leaves only when his mother promises she'll do all she can to preserve the body. Like my Thetis did not deserve that character assassination.

MM turns him into just a healer and goes with the same opposite attracts trope, same old het trope where one is stay at home wife and other is macho man. And if patroclus was female and someone turned og character into this...whatever it was, all would've shamed Miller. But because it's a man, people call it progressive.

That's my problem with tsoa and it ain't going anywhere. Sadly. There's no way one can turn into a positive thing. I don't see how it's gonna happen. Again I'd say the same thing. Patroclus deserved to heal and kill men. Tysm.

The thing is, my post isn't about people criticizing tsoa. Is about people making things up about Tsoa to get mad at MM

Like, I know that Patroclus in the iliad was both a warrior and a healer, but MM has come again and again to say that her Patroclus is more based on Troilus and Cressida (the play written by Shakespeare) than the Iliad

So people come here, and start saying "Is not the same as the Iliad!!" When the point was never being like the iliad

And you can say "I don't like that" but more than being a fair criticism of her work, is personal preference

Now, about being a healer and femininity. I find very funny that a lot of people are projecting their idea of gender roles into tsoa because being a healer throughout history has been, and is, a male dominated occupation and Patroclus in tsoa is never described as feminine, just kind and friendly which isn't equal to feminine

Plus the idea of Patroclus tending to Achilles home, is something that happens in the iliad as well, where Patroclus takes the role of the wife and serves Achilles

Which I think you could put into a similar sentiment that if Patroclus was a woman in the iliad, and she had to tend to the house on top of being a soldier, and was defined by her kindness instead of aggressiveness, people would say that Homer was being pretty misogynistic, but because Patroclus is a man is progressive??

Again, I don't think is wrong to dislike Tsoa, but I think at least here in le tumblre in the fandom Tsoa has become the socially acceptable punching bag; so is not just to dislike tsoa, is a performance of hating tsoa so you can be seen as an "intelligent one, not like the others". Like in the movie Troy, Patroclus is portrayed as a naive kid that got killed the first time he went out to fight, very different from the iliad, yet I don't see as much hate directed towards David Benioff (the writer of the film) as opposed to MM

With MM, I've seen a lot of people questioning her intelligence, her education (very feminist of them to attack a woman's intelligence when they don't like her work/sarcasm) and I've even seen some people saying that they want to "beat her up". Like what the hell

So I think people are giving tsoa and MM waaay too much unjust criticism because she's a woman that writes YA which people totally accept as "dumb" because is "for girls" without taking into consideration what MM wanted to actually say and why

1st thing, yeah agreed she gets lots of hate, and I'm one of those ig, she gets lots of love as well and those who criticise it are minority, tho quote vocal minority.

Now, I dont have any problem with patroclus performing "feminine" Role. As I said, I don't have problem with what patroclus 𝙙𝙞𝙙 in the book, I've problem with what he 𝙙𝙞𝙙𝙣'𝙩. Like again I'm asking, please tell me if the same thing happened to a female character, what you'd say?

You take a female character who was kind, gentle, more importantly she's good, who didn't shy away from doing "feminine" Things, 𝙗𝙪𝙩, was a badass fighter, who didn't shy away from battle either, despite being a healer( you know the biased view, a doctor/healer can't do violence because) who, despite being a mortal girl, killed son of the most powerful God, who tried to conquer a city but was killed because another God didn't like it. A girl who was all of those things and more and an author read it, took inspiration, decided to write about the said character, but stripped her of those parts that are "masculine" Because. And turned her into someone who's doing all the thing just for her lover.

Tell me if a female character who's good at fighting, and good at healing people was turned into "you can't fight."

That's my fixation, that's what I hate. I've no problem with MM focusing on the parts that are not related to battle, I've problem with her making it "You can't fight" I hate that line.

but I didn't know she's said she took inspiration from Shakespeare play as well. I haven't read it so won't comment. But yeah, again, I have no problem with him being devoted to Achilles, I've no problem with him doing "wife's" Role. I've problem with that "You can't fight" Part and for that I'm never not gonna drag MM. She could have gone with "not same level as achilles, a mediocre fighter" But going so far as saying "You can't fight" And in the same chapter showing him fight. Like...?

It was good, it could have been better.

Sometimes when I read posts that go

"MM was trying to impose her heteronormative views on Patrochilles by making Patroclus feminine, in the iliad both were very masculine warriors"

I have the desire to just go and say

📣"In your pursuit of accusing MM of imposing heteronormative views you have failed to recognize that you yourself are imposing modern views of masculinity, femininity and sexuality into the Iliad

As not only these things weren't the same in the context of the Iliad, but also you don't recognize the multiple times where the narrator compares both Achilles and Patroclus to feminine things

Even Achilles compares himself multiple times to a motherly figure, and Patroclus takes the role of the wife by doing household duties during the embassy plus the famous comparison between him and Cleopatra in the Meleager story, while later Achilles takes the role of the closest female relative in Patroclus's funeral

Now, the role Achilles fulfills in the funeral could be interpreted as either a wife or a mother. And the concept of Achilles acting as Patroclus's mother might seem weird to a modern audience, but I think it reflects the sentiment Andromache expressed to Hector in book 6 "Hektor, thus you are father to me, and my honored mother, you are my brother, and you it is who are my young husband." So she's basically saying that Hector is everything to her; the most important and loved person in her life. Likewise Achilles and Patroclus are everything to each other, including father, mother, brother, and maybe even wife and husband

And so while the criticism of forcing heteronormative dynamics to Patroclus and Achilles is valid (criticism I personally don't think applies to tsoa, but that's another post) The idea of both Achilles and Patroclus taking what today we consider a hypermasculine role in their relationship to each other isn't just anachronistic but also inaccurate and it seems more likely that both performed a mix of femininity and masculinity within their relationship

Also, womp womp"

my problem isn't with what is in tsoa(I mean I've but not patroclus' character, it's thetis but yeah different matter)

My problem is that it's wrong to categorise him only as a healer. A 𝙝𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙚𝙧 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙗𝙚 𝙖 𝙛𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙖𝙨 𝙬𝙚𝙡𝙡!

Patroclus was a fighter and still kind, gentle soul. He deserved to be that. He deserves to kill, who knows how many Trojans he killed In Iliad.. He did not deserve the character assassination where he killed Sarpedon, Zeus' Son, by fucking mistake. He.bloody.did.not. and i hated that.

Patroclus died and it is achilles fault but not in the way Briseis says it is. Honestly the way I was shaking, crying and laughing while reading that.

“How could you have let him go? You knew he could not fight!” like sir? Gods I hated her when she said this! Though other things she said were certainly not wrong.

Achilles is not ready to leave patroclus' body next day and leaves only when his mother promises she'll do all she can to preserve the body. Like my Thetis did not deserve that character assassination.

MM turns him into just a healer and goes with the same opposite attracts trope, same old het trope where one is stay at home wife and other is macho man. And if patroclus was female and someone turned og character into this...whatever it was, all would've shamed Miller. But because it's a man, people call it progressive.

That's my problem with tsoa and it ain't going anywhere. Sadly. There's no way one can turn into a positive thing. I don't see how it's gonna happen. Again I'd say the same thing. Patroclus deserved to heal and kill men. Tysm.

Achilles’ grief was strong enough that he was a threat to the gods. Achilles’s grief was strong enough that he could defy fate.

I just read that part where Zeus goes," Y'all need to take part in war otherwise troy will fall before time, because of HIM!" Like damn!! Bloody fucking hell!