communismkills is like blatantly antiblack lol but i know you don’t actually care about Black peoples or minorities so go about your day now roach

@siryouarebeingmocked @nerdylilpeebee Uh-oh, sorry guys, looks like I don't care about y'all. I know we've been friends for years, but some rando on tumblr says I don't care about you because I spoke up for your beliefs so it must be true.

I love it when people try to use their ingroup buzzwords on people who fundamentally don't agree, like "antiblack". It's like they have no idea how to come up with actual criticism, instead of cliches.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to be 'anti-black', the accuser has to have a pretty specific idea, a stereotype if you will, of how black people are supposed to act, no?🤔

I like how they call Marc a "brain dead racist" when their idea of a debate is desperately trying to shoehorn the opposition into stereotyped categories so they can be smug, declare victory, and ignore what they actually say. Including ethnic minorities. And strictly speaking, "antiblack" just means "racist against black people". Or, presumably, "against the collective interest of black people". Which, oddly enough, seems to map pretty closely to "opposing what certain progressives think black people need".

I couldn't have said it better myself.

So I realize that a lot of people might take this response in bad faith, and while I don't have a catch-all answer to the problem. I do want to state a few things I've seen and that I fear we in the left are chronically bad about. I genuinely hope that people won't view this as some ignorant idiot running their mouth; and rather as someone who's looking to help, because what I'm going to ask of you sounds a little accusatory.

A big thing is that you have to stop with the generalization. I've heard people say "but they do it" and "but it IS most of them" and such. I get it, I get it but you can't say "Cis, Straight, White Men are bad" and then expect the good Cis, Straight, White Men to still stand up for you. I've always been told "but the good ones won't care!" Yes, they will.

I was once told by a Rightwinger on a forum that "the Left are a powerful force in converting people to be conservative." When I asked him about what he meant exactly; he explained (with the use of far too many slurs and insults I'll be omitting) that essentially when otherwise Left-Leaning individuals see the way Leftists talk about them or people like them, it's very easy for Rightwingers to sweep in and basically say "we're not going to judge you like that." Of course they hide the fact they will judge you in other ways, but for that moment; they are a beacon of shelter from the otherwise very loud mob of Leftists who would deem you literally the most inherently bad person for being... a cis man.

Am I saying you have to go out there and start forgiving every bigot, humoring every fuckboy; stop holding sexists accountable for their bullshit? Absolutely not. In fact, what I'm asking you to do is stop firing a shotgun at a target that can only be hit properly with a sniper rifle. I'm asking you to stop giving the bad actors a scapegoat. I'm asking you to be specific.

If you take a young man, who doesn't have any concept of things like gender identity, the patriarchy, homophobia, etc. You take that young man and you look him in the eyes and you tell him:

"Men are a disgusting and violent gender, men do not deserve respect. The only good man is a fictional man. All men deserve to be treated poorly, women shouldn't have to put up with men. Cis men are the worst. Straight Cis Men should go to hell."

He's going to become a conservative rightwinger, because at least they won't hate him for being a man. They'll just hate him for being the wrong kind of man. It's easier for that man to seek acceptance through forcing others to be below him, than for him to accept that he is inherently a problem. If you instead literally word it as:

"Sexists and bigots, who would view women as nothing more than objects are disgusting. Anyone who would look down on, and see someone as lesser because of their race, gender identity, or sexuality does not deserve respect."

Well now he's not a target. Because he doesn't see women that way, he doesn't have racist thoughts; he's not currently a bad person and you're not talking about him. Now I know that a lot of people say "but I'm NOT talking about people like that!" I know that, you know that; you know who doesn't know that? The young man who's reading your posts, the young man who hears you at the store, the young man who read your forum response 3 months ago. What they see, plain as day is "men are a problem" and they're going to seek shelter from that.

Unfortunately for everyone involved; the shelter they end up finding so many times is conservative rightwingers. There are tons of people you can hear talk about this on youtube and forums, people who got indoctrinated because they would rather be praised for being a man than hated for it.

Now you might not talk this way, a lot of people don't; but a lot of other people DO. I see a lot of "the only good man is a trans man" or "the only good man is a fictional man" type posts, and even if you want to say it's just a meme or it's all a joke. You need to understand that when you speak generally, a man, especially a young man is going to see that and react to it. It's going to shape their idea of how the Left, who you represent to them whether you want to or not; see them.

If a young man who currently is unaligned on either side of the political spectrum sees a bunch of gay and trans people shitting on men for simply "being men" and not for the patriarchy, not for the sexism, not for male privilege and all that. Not actually educating anyone, not speaking out about the injustice; not discussing toxic masculinity or anything that may even shine a light on the issues people face. Just saying "men suck" and leaving it at that. Only to then see a bunch of Rightwingers saying all those gays and trans people are stupid and they are bad people and they hate men for no reason. That young man is going to make a no-effort decision in that moment to side with the people who do not openly hate him.

It's genuinely that easy for someone to become indoctrinated. Once they're in, they're rewarded for thinking less, promoting the ideals that promise them a higher spot on the social ladder; and generally following the mentality that Leftists are bad, and Rightwingers are good. They keep digging themselves into that hole trying to find a place they belong, somewhere they won't be hated; somewhere they don't need to feel guilty and wrong for just being who they are. Until they learn that the Right also thinks they're bad and wrong, they're a "beta" because they haven't fucked someone yet, they're a "soyboy" if they're not benching 200 pounds, making six figures, and banging a new girl each week. So now the urge for acceptance has shifted. Being a man means nothing if you're not "the right kind of man" if you're not an alpha, if you're not a sigma male then you're not good enough.

Go figure now they start viewing women as objects. That's not a woman, that's a ticket to not being a beta virgin anymore. She can be bought, she can be manipulated because he's an "alpha" he has money, he has control; he's a man. He's been taught all of this, he's been taught that "bitches don't matter." He's been told that working out and having money can get him any woman he wants. He's been taught women are dumb, that they're materialistic; that they don't matter outside of being a quick fuck. If someone tells him off, or doesn't like him it's because "she's a crazy bitch." I was once told "men don't have friends, men have competition." This is how they're taught.

So now you approach this man in some attempt to help him understand the faults in his ways. The problem is he's been convinced for the last so many odd years that by simply being a Leftist, or by being gay, or by being trans; you're wrong. Before a single word leaves you mouth. Because "all Leftists are special snowflakes who just get triggered by everything." Which unfortunately the internet has "proved" to him because of those videos of gay people screaming at cameras, or posts that generalize all straight/white/cis men to be bad people.

Again, this isn't some catch all solution. It's not going instantly turn the tide or something, but you have to stop using general terms. Be specific; don't say "men" say "Sexists" if what you mean is "sexist men" then say "sexist men." Because when you just say "men" you do imply "all men, including you; the man reading this." Whether that's what you mean or not. I don't believe that men are inherently born with a want for things like sexism and racism. I really don't believe men are some inherent evil born with bad intentions. I believe it's a combination of the way the popular culture tells them they should be something great; and the way the Left tell them they're a horrible person for how they were born. That's a fast track for becoming a "Crypto Hitler."

I cannot tell you how many genuine conversations I've been able to have with Rightwingers, where I've been able to sort of get them to see my side of things even just a little. Because I didn't point a finger at larger audiences. I was talking to a man on a forum just a few days ago about the inherent issue of sexism in an abortion ban. I made sure to use the word "sexists" and the word "men" as separate entities. When I was discussing how men have bodily autonomy that women don't, I would say just that; when I mentioned that sexists want to control a woman's body I would also say just that. He still mentioned several times "Well I never said I wanted to do that." To which I had to point out to him that I never said he did, I said Sexists did; so if he wasn't in fact Sexist then the shoe doesn't fit.

My goal in all of that was to absolve him of blame; but only so long as he didn't fit the bill for the sort of people who deserved the blame. I let him see it as a matter of simple fact. No different than saying "if you didn't shoot this man then you're not the murderer." I didn't say "everyone with a gun shot this man and therefore everyone with a gun, including you; is in fact the murderer." Because doing so would cause nothing but argument. Rather I treated the whole thing as though he couldn't have possibly been at fault right? By the end of it he came out of it saying that abortion still goes against his religious beliefs; but that he can understand how it's specifically a women's issue; and how there should be further discussion about the effects of abortion as a treatment that could potentially save lives. Crazy how that works right? I got a Rightwinger to admit that hey, abortion isn't an issue men should be speaking on. All because I ensured that he didn't feel as though I was pointing a finger specifically at HIM as a man, for being the problem; and instead let him come to the conclusion of whether or not he specifically fit the mold of a "sexist" or a "man." He told me that I was a lot smarter than "those autistic leftists" but he never knew I in fact am an autistic Leftist. That's literally just because in his mind he knows what an "Autistic Leftist" is, what they will say; how they will act, how they'll react. By not being that stereotype; he couldn't just label me some buzzword and write off what I was saying. In his eyes I was a man with a wife and was merely concerned over the safety of our wives and daughters.

Sometimes that's what it takes to make someone see things your way, if I explained to him that I'm a pansexual genderfluid individual who never intends to have children and just believes women should have the right to bodily autonomy for the sake of bodily autonomy the same as cis men have; well he'd probably write me off immediately.

I'm not saying you have you hide who you are, I'm not saying you have to appeal to their bigoted whims and humor their insults. However I am saying that you need to conduct yourself in a way that's going to show young men that you care about them too. That even the young cis white straight men have a place in a Leftist society; that they won't be hated for simply being true to themselves, how they identity; and how they love. That what we want is equality for everyone; and specifically what rights they have for simply being those things, that the rest of us don't for simply being who and what we are.

tl;dr We can save a lot of young men from becoming Crypto Hitlers if we actually stop talking about men in general like they're already Crypto Hitlers.

Uh yeah, what this guy said.

But genuinely, I've been affected by all those catchall posts. While I didn't fall into right-wing BS, it's definitely understandable why some guys do. (Does not mean I agree)

The posts made me feel bad just for existing and that it's just how I'm always going to be perceived. Which honestly, I probably will for a long time, change takes a while. I do think that by everyone just be more careful with their words as to not making over-generalizations we can try and reverse this stigma.

There will always be bad people (men and women alike) and while statistics show a higher amount of men abusers (just an example), it doesn't mean all of them are. Best thing we can do now is just try and teach young men and boys common respect and kindness for everyone, and to stop over-generalizations. Like the person above said, be specific!

This applies to a lot more too, like differing views on religion and politics. Just because people someone believes in x religion, does not mean they're going to act a certain way. They have a choice in how they act, and so do we. There's nothing to gain from putting others down with over-generalizations.

The real funny thing is that when abuse is in one direction rather than completely reciprocal as it often, there are over twice as many female abusers than male ones. So… no, your example is just incorrect

When I originally searched this up in order to double check the information I've been told, I found this.

"Usually, domestic violence is perpetrated by men against women; however, females may exhibit violent behavior against their male partners."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/#:~:text=Usually%2C%20domestic%20violence%20is%20perpetrated,killed%20by%20their%20intimate%20partners.

However, seeing how you found that, I decided to do more research and the results I'm finding are showing the opposite.

"According to the CDC, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men will experience physical violence by their intimate partner at some point during their lifetimes. About 1 in 3 women and nearly 1 in 6 men experience some form of sexual violence during their lifetimes. Intimate partner violence, sexual violence, and stalking are high, with intimate partner violence occurring in over 10 million people each year.

One in 6 women and 1 in 19 men have experienced stalking during their lifetimes. The majority are stalked by someone they know. An intimate partner stalks about 6 in 10 female victims and 4 in 10 male victims"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/

This:

"From 1994 to 2010, approximately 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence were female."

https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/

And this:

"Overall, 22% of individuals assaulted by a partner at least once in their lifetime (23% for females and 19.3% for  males)"

"Lifetime rates higher among women than men"

https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/domestic-violence-facts-and-statistics-at-a-glance/

However there is one more interesting piece in the last study:

"Past year rates somewhat higher among men"

The majority of research shows that women are more likely to be abused by their partners, compared to men, based on both that line in that article and the evidence you provided, there may be a shift in the other direction.

However, I personally do not currently believe there are enough recent studies to confirm this shift.

To anyone reading this though, feel free to take it either way, it doesn't take away from the main point of my original addition.

Those stats you gathered still seem to indicate that male victims of abuse and sexual violence are a lot more common than society, progressives, and feminists think they are, generally speaking. Your orange quote is only a few points away from being 50/50.

And even if we just limit it to Intimate Partner violence, most men are straight. Which would indicate that there are also a lot more women doing this stuff than most people acknowledge.

Both of which strongly contradict the popular progressive/feminist idea that abuse and rape are motivated by male hatred toward women.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

funny how women dont turn to fascism and rightwing politics in masses because of the hatred and discrimination we are and have been faced with for centuries 🤨

Seriously, why are men so easily brainwashed? A Nazi calls you "brother" and you're all in??? Maybe have some principles and grow a damned spine?!!

The particular population of men swinging into conservatism is the youngest generation. These are high school and middle school aged kids growing up in an educational environment where they're disadvantaged on the basis of their sex and in which women largely hold the power—see the underperformance of young men in education. These men will encounter misandrist rhetoric over the course of their youth, either rehashed and compiled by conservative mouthpieces or stumbled across in the wild, which seems to say that they are responsible for the ills of women around them and they are the oppressor class.

Of course women don't turn right-wing en-masse on account of discrimination; they wouldn't turn to the side of their antagonists. Similarly young men turn to the right because they feel antagonized by the left—framed for a patriarchy they didn't install. They feel they're being punished for their immutable characteristics, and the loudest consolation is only coming from the lip of the right-wing pipeline. What remains except to embrace reality as it is, and abuse the system for their benefit? Clearly women don't care about them (as they will often hear voices from the left say, 'Haven't women been nice enough to men already/women don't owe men anything') and with the understanding that women are remorseless about them, why should they feel any remorse for women?

And so they fall. You push them into the trap, then you blame them for falling in. You may think your online musings are just screaming into a void, but they're not. Anyone can read it. The right wing will use your hate against you. The right wing will use your hate to turn men across the world against you. Mind what you post.

Women have literally been subjugated and oppressed for MILLENIA. Men don't get spoon-fed for a few years and allofasudden it's everyone's fault BUT the men! Girls are doing better in school because they're working harder. Women are getting more degrees because we are hauling ass.

The world still gives men easy access to everything they want and y'all STILL fail?? That's no one's fault but your own.

@aqueous2 if you have nto reported to the authorities the neonazi group you know of you are not an ally. go be a nice fucking human and report those people

The recent underperformance of male students is better tied to the rise of neoconservativism than the subtle presence of some liberal feminism in society. Ten plus years ago, when edgy tumblr feminism was still going strong, male students were still scoring higher than females in STEM. Teachers have always been mostly women because of schools' association with childcare. So what actually shifted?

What we've seen is a return to an oppositional culture against education. This crabs in a bucket mentality towards "nerds" who want to improve their station via a career is aimed at and promoted mainly by working class boys just like how it was around the real y2k.

Or, and here me out now, maybe the problem is that men don't want to be a part of a movement filled with people who despise them for being born like all the radfems ^^^? Maybe a decade of being told that you're the problem because you're a man isn't the way to change society? Just a thought.

why aren't women rapists then? or abusers, or violently hate men? since the beginning of time women have been oppressed, but men see one tumblr post and now they get to hate women??

Women are rapists and abusers. You're just convinced that, because you personally have never run into one, they don't exist, and that all the stories you do hear about them must be lies because you start with the conclusion and work backwards.

Goalpost move to "well, not as MANY women" in three...two...one...

The irony is, someone can be a rapist and abuser without hating the entire gender of the people they hurt. And, y'know, bisexual rapists and abusers also exist.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

funny how women dont turn to fascism and rightwing politics in masses because of the hatred and discrimination we are and have been faced with for centuries 🤨

Seriously, why are men so easily brainwashed? A Nazi calls you "brother" and you're all in??? Maybe have some principles and grow a damned spine?!!

The particular population of men swinging into conservatism is the youngest generation. These are high school and middle school aged kids growing up in an educational environment where they're disadvantaged on the basis of their sex and in which women largely hold the power—see the underperformance of young men in education. These men will encounter misandrist rhetoric over the course of their youth, either rehashed and compiled by conservative mouthpieces or stumbled across in the wild, which seems to say that they are responsible for the ills of women around them and they are the oppressor class.

Of course women don't turn right-wing en-masse on account of discrimination; they wouldn't turn to the side of their antagonists. Similarly young men turn to the right because they feel antagonized by the left—framed for a patriarchy they didn't install. They feel they're being punished for their immutable characteristics, and the loudest consolation is only coming from the lip of the right-wing pipeline. What remains except to embrace reality as it is, and abuse the system for their benefit? Clearly women don't care about them (as they will often hear voices from the left say, 'Haven't women been nice enough to men already/women don't owe men anything') and with the understanding that women are remorseless about them, why should they feel any remorse for women?

And so they fall. You push them into the trap, then you blame them for falling in. You may think your online musings are just screaming into a void, but they're not. Anyone can read it. The right wing will use your hate against you. The right wing will use your hate to turn men across the world against you. Mind what you post.

Women have literally been subjugated and oppressed for MILLENIA. Men don't get spoon-fed for a few years and allofasudden it's everyone's fault BUT the men! Girls are doing better in school because they're working harder. Women are getting more degrees because we are hauling ass.

The world still gives men easy access to everything they want and y'all STILL fail?? That's no one's fault but your own.

@aqueous2 if you have nto reported to the authorities the neonazi group you know of you are not an ally. go be a nice fucking human and report those people

The recent underperformance of male students is better tied to the rise of neoconservativism than the subtle presence of some liberal feminism in society. Ten plus years ago, when edgy tumblr feminism was still going strong, male students were still scoring higher than females in STEM. Teachers have always been mostly women because of schools' association with childcare. So what actually shifted?

What we've seen is a return to an oppositional culture against education. This crabs in a bucket mentality towards "nerds" who want to improve their station via a career is aimed at and promoted mainly by working class boys just like how it was around the real y2k.

I have been on tumblr for that long, and back then, one common MRA argument was that boys were less likely to graduate high school and college, and got better grades, because of systemic educational changes designed to prioritize girls.

Criticizing to someone else in the chain to save dash space.

sharticle >These men will encounter misandrist rhetoric over the course of their youth, either rehashed and compiled by conservative mouthpieces or stumbled across in the wild, which seems to say that they are responsible for the ills of women around them and they are the oppressor class.

Interesting how you don't actually say who's actually saying this stuff, but you do mention conservatives who compile it.

I also like "seems to say", when, um, that's the explicit message of many people.

Including the claim that men are all collectively responsible for any evil any man does to any women (which must, of course, be motivated by sexism).

By the way, ever heard of MRAs? Who actually tend to lean left-wing and think feminism isn't doing enough to support gender equality?

I've seen plenty of left-wing folks try to tell women to get in line and treat them horrible because those women didn't blindly support feminism.

I've also seen loads of left-wingers pretend or convince themselves right-wing women don't exist, or are just doing what men want.

Especially when it comes to abortion.

Ironically, they were both pretty misogynist, and "erasing women's voices".

And yet are constantly told they're responsible for.

If you say "every single society run by men is automatically sexist and oppresses women," you're saying men are so universally sexist as makes no difference from every single one being sexist.

Oh, good, you finally used active voice about the left.

And then you immediately blame this on the right-wing more than the left again.

How about not being dicks to men because sexism is inherently wrong, and it's not what people should be doing if they support gender equality and oppose sexism?

Besides why do we act like men becoming right wing automatically means radicalized. Some are sure, but you can be a conservative and not be radicalized.

Because "alt-right" is more dramatic and crimethinky and doubleplus ungood than "conservative".

And frankly, "alt-right" has been a vague buzzword for a long time.

It's hilarious how the left is so collectivist that even when they suggest listening to the other side, it's only to boost their own influence. Of course they happily crush people underneath their boots. Only the group matters. People are merely a means to an end.

And folks on the left who are more reasonable frequently get yelled at.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

loving men has never stopped them from killing, assaulting, or otherwise harming and degrading women, so clearly loving them enough was never the problem.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

no.

if being told you suck your whole life makes you a fucking n*zi then you were already going to be a n*zi.

minorities are shit on all day every day and don’t become extremists.

do not police how oppressed people speak about their oppressors.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

As I’ve started to pass more and more frequently, I’ve encountered more and more women who twist every word I say into something ignorant or hateful. I don’t like being called a “male” any more than a woman likes being called a “female”. I don’t like being told i’m inherently inferior to women, or that i’m genetically more likely to be a predator. I don’t like being told to “sit down and shut up” when discussing reproductive rights, when I’m also very much affected by what’s been going on in the US.

I shouldn’t have to out myself just to be given a shred of basic human decency. And some of y’all are completely fine with all that shit being said to a cis man. If we want cis men to start letting themselves feel emotions, maybe stop telling them how much you hate everything about them? I know so many men suck ass but getting mad at your allies for daring to ask if you hate them too does more harm than good.

Also I want to point out how “men are naturally a threat to women” and anything related to that is bioessentialist terf rhetoric. Your chromosomes do not determine your personality. Men are not born misogynists. Masculinity is not inherently evil.

I’m not asking anyone to tolerate cruel, hateful men. I have a 0 tolerance policy for misogyny of any kind. But we cannot raise a new generation of kind, emotionally intelligent men if we treat masculinity as an inherently negative trait.

>Also I want to point out how “men are naturally a threat to women” and anything related to that is bioessentialist terf rhetoric. Your chromosomes do not determine your personality. Men are not born misogynists. Masculinity is not inherently evil.

And yet mainstream feminism assumes any society or group run by men will be automatically sexist and biased against women, with none of the reverse concerns for groups dominated by women.

Including feminism itself.

Feminism essentially goes "well, not every man, but it's so common we need to mistrust men anyway". Schrodinger's Rapist was not radfems. Neither was the M+Ms analogy.

Neither was the "man or bear in the woods" thing, from just this spring.

You don't have to be bioessentialist or a TERF to consider men inherent threats to women.

You just need to be a sexist.

And if you can't criticize it on the basis of actual sexism, only by slapping crimethink labels on it, perhaps you should ask yourself why.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

As a 30 year old man who escaped the Alt-right pipeline, you're not going to be happy about the answer.

All I hear from leftists is how much they hate me for my immutable traits, how much they blame me for everything wrong with the world, how much they want me and everyone who looks like me dead.

Whereas Alt-right types would call me "brother" and welcome me into their ranks so long as I hated the right ways.

Do you understand the difference?

I'm an ally and support equality because I feel it's the morally correct choice to make, but holy fuck is it difficult to reconcile that with the fact that means fighting for a lot of people who see you as the scum of the earth.

Read this and then read it again and then read some fucking bell hooks because this is a legitimate problem on the left.

"To create loving men, we must love males. Loving maleness is different from praising and rewarding males for living up to sexist-defined notions of male identity. Caring about men because of what they do for us is not the same as loving males for simply being." - bell hooks, The Will to Change https://bellhooksbooks.com/product/the-will-to-change/

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: one of the most successful alt-right psyops 4chan ever pulled was sealioning leftists in general and feminist women in particular to such a degree that, in response, we started reacting to every polite, 101-level question about feminism or leftist politics from men with anger and hostility, thereby driving said men directly towards the sympathetic arms of the alt-right, which was the entire fucking point of conditioning us to do that. I cannot emphasise enough that 4channers did this on purpose, as a concerted strategy, to make the left look unhinged, misandrist and unreasonable, and that we, collectively, took the fucking bait.

which is where the role of radfem/terf shit in furthering the same gender essentialism espoused by the alt-right really needs to be acknowledged: because as necessary and overdue as #metoo was on a cultural level, the framing of so many subsequent discussions as Yes All Men is radfem brainrot, not because patriarchy doesn't exist (it does!), but because patriarchy is an institutional and sociocultural problem rather than some inherent, indelible facet of masculinity, and that distinction matters, because you cannot solve the problem of patriarchy by treating it as fundamentally unsolvable.

this doesn't mean excusing misogyny. it doesn't mean absolving shitty men for their shitty actions. it means acknowledging that, at a basic psychological level, the vast majority of people do not react well to an all stick, no carrot approach to self-improvement, and if your response to that reaction is to say, "well, but they shouldn't need a carrot - they should just know to do right anyway, for its own sake, and the fact that they don't is why they deserve the stick," then I'd invite you to consider exactly how many different groups with individual, often radically self-contradictory definitions of right exist in this context, and how many of them, as opposed to you, are distributing carrots.

like, listen: I know that it sucks that people, universally, are not born with an innate, collective knowledge of The Best Way To Run A Society And Treat Each Other, and it additionally sucks that, even if we somehow figured out the perfect answer, some would still take convincing, others would still be on the fence, and a terrible few would still commit to being assholes. but that's what it means to be human, and there's no shortcut to getting around it! the work is the work. men are always going to exist, which means you can't build a better world without them - and if your better world doesn't acknowledge that, then it's not a better world at all; just a silo away from reality.

The vast majority of people do not react well to an all stick, no carrot approach to self-improvement, and if your response to that reaction is to say, "well, but they shouldn't need a carrot - they should just know to do right anyway, for its own sake, and the fact that they don't is why they deserve the stick," then I'd invite you to consider exactly how many different groups with individual, often radically self-contradictory definitions of right exist in this context, and how many of them, as opposed to you, are distributing carrots.

The patriarchy doesn't exist, and the left is not just unhinged and misandrist, but racist and antisemitic too. Whatever 4channers did, the left stood and declared with their whole chest they were right about the left.

>I've said it before, and I'll say it again: one of the most successful alt-right psyops 4chan ever pulled was sealioning leftists in general and feminist women in particular to such a degree that, in response, we started reacting to every polite, 101-level question about feminism or leftist politics from men with anger and hostility, thereby driving said men directly towards the sympathetic arms of the alt-right, which was the entire fucking point of conditioning us to do that.

The concept and predominant use of the term "sealioning" is "it's wrong to politely ask me extremely basic questions about my publicly stated beliefs if they make me uncomfy".

Feminists have had hostile reactions to questioning and disagreement - from men or women - for a very long time. Just ask Erin Pizzey. She opened the first women's shelter in the UK and the world.

And then when she realized lots of men were being abused by women, she tried to get support for them too. The era's feminists harassed her, her family, and her publisher, up to and including death threats.

Not to mention the countless posts I've seen from feminists who say women owe feminism their support because of what it did in the past, even if those women have issues with what it's doing now.

This was not some sort of double reverse backflip gambit. The call was coming from inside the house.

All 4chan did, if anything, was get feminists to expose their own flaws.

And 4chan weren't responsible for the 2013 protests by feminists at the U of Toronto, when people tried to talk about men's issues.

Or the time they falsely blamed MRAs for a "misogynist" mass murderer named Elliot Rodger.

He had nothing to do with MRAs, and feminists erased the fact that he hated, killed, and injured twice as many men as women.

Just the existence of the term "mansplaining" is ironic (and sexist), considering feminists condescendingly tell men what men's lives are supposedly like, all the time.

Even when obvious evidence shows they're wrong.

>which is where the role of radfem/terf shit in furthering the same gender essentialism espoused by the alt-right really needs to be acknowledged:

I love how so many progressives and leftists are determined to ignore that TERFs, by definition, are just further along the same line as regular feminists. The biggest difference is that they openly hate men, directly.

And TERFs just consider trans women men.

>: because as necessary and overdue as #metoo was on a cultural level, the framing of so many subsequent discussions as Yes All Men is radfem brainrot, not because patriarchy doesn't exist (it does!), but because patriarchy is an institutional and sociocultural problem rather than some inherent, indelible facet of masculinity, and that distinction matters, because you cannot solve the problem of patriarchy by treating it as fundamentally unsolvable.

Minor issue with that. #NotAllMen predates #MeToo by several years.

"Stop negatively stereotyping men" is the single most common criticism of feminism.

Also, "patriarchy" just means "rule by patriarchs". Feminists were the ones who associated it, indelibly, with sexism and misogyny.

Heck, you're still implying that it's somehow inherently wrong. Which is, um, not so different from the people you think you're criticizing.

You're almost there, but you're still refusing to admit that some of this was, and always has been, feminism's fault.

I hate that sentiment of "you weren't friendless in high school because you liked anime, you were friendless because you were an asshole, hope this helps :)" because even when there's a grain of truth to it, there's such a willful ignorance of just how baseless teenage ostracism can get, and that it likely wasn't proportional or helpful at all

high schoolers are well known for only choosing proper targets in accordance with the rules of social justice

actually that isn't sarcastic since the rules of social justice are "bully whoever is weakest to your bullying"

Irony is, people who say things like that are trying to bully people in the present.

That unfortunate tendency is thousands of years old. "Oh, something bad happened to you? You must have done something to deserve it." That's a major plot point in the Biblical story of Job. Job's butthead friends pull that one over and over.

You kinda have to let bullying happen to get bullied.

I was the fat kid, I was a prime opportunity for bullying. But I refused and kicked their ass because guess what the fat kid had 50 lbs over you, of course it was easy for him to take you down.

Don’t be a whiner, be the fat kid. Go sit on someone.

And what happens when the bully comes back with some of his friends to beat you up? What if you get in trouble for fighting back, as many bullying victims have complained about?

Even worse case:

The year is 2024. The bully is no longer the immature playground brute and the headache of teachers and students alike. Instead, s/he is the teacher's pet/prom queen/employee of the year, everyone likes them, and s/he wins all the important awards, accolades, and/or promotions. S/he is not the pain-in-the-butt of the system; s/he is of the system, and knows how to play it.

And you have the misfortune of being their current chosen target for narcissistic supply. S/he bullies you in the most efficient way possible: not with kicks, punches, and playground taunts, but with weapons such as gossip, slander, snitching, gaslighting, and passive aggression. All of it, of course, with maximum deniability.

At some point, you reach your limit. You snap. You decided to stand up for yourself and call them out. You're sick and tired of their bullying, and you deserve better than their unfair judgments. "Finally" you say to yourself, "I fought back! I showed them that I'm not a punching bag! Now there will be justice!" Only soon after, s/he comes back for revenge, and with them are not their henchmen, but the headmaster/line manager/PCC. S/he has already concocted and served them the sob-story that "Woe is me! All I've ever done is look out for the common good of our school/team/company! I only wanted to help him improve, but he lashed out at me out of nowhere!", along with some more slander as the cherry on top. And by Jove, how could anyone not believe their narrative! Who has any time to listen to your part of the story when the Golden Child has spoken! "S/he is the star of our team, you should respect them more! You're not a good team player! You're not being INCLUSIVE!"

And now watch as your social standing and credibility, along with everything that comes with it, plummets, and theirs increases.

Their bullying is not merely left unpunished -- it is rewarded.

It’s so interesting how modern discourse over how bad something is (or if it were bad at all) depends on the victimhood of the person in question. So if you don’t like someone or some group, you simply reframe them as not-victims

Like how certain misandrists reframe male suicide as “men being violent towards everyone, including themselves”

It also encourages people to reframe minor annoyances as serious harm. And to turn them into "marginalized" people issues. Like "code-switching", as if changing the way you talk for your audience wasn't standard for everyone, not just black people.

Nunya ur my friend. Love ya like ur a weird uncle who just kinda hangs out in the corner at family gatherings but in a chill non-creepy way yeah

But I'm getting so close to fuckin strangling you with my mind, with all the shit takes you've been having lately

Harris conceded, she's declared Trump the winner.

Unlike in 2000 when the whole thing in FL was going on and we had to wait to see if it would be Bush2 or Gore or in 2020 when Trump refused to concede.

It's over now, it's not a take so much as it is a reality.

And in the interest of full transparency, I wrote in Vermin Supreme for president on my ballot because I'd rather not have either of the two main candidates in the white house for various reasons on both.

Oh so you're part of why this happened. Y'know what. Fine. None of it matters right now anyways.

Still, there's like, actual evidence pointing towards some shady shit this time, so I feel we should be looking into it.

I'm in CA, kammy got like 2/3 of the vote mine wouldn't have changed anything here.

"Give them what they voted for." And the men who did not vote in that way or don't live by the no sex before marriage ideal?

Avatar: The Way of Water - Recom Costume & Props- Weta Design Workshop on Artstation

Gadsden flag - Wikipedia

Not exactly subtle, is it?

“We will tread on you.”

I take it back, make fun of this man, I can't, he chose to block me again, Mitch really needs mental help.

Holy shit, he genuinely believes the Democratic party is a party of angels, and that Russia is behind everything wrong with the world, Mitch, the cold war is over, China is a bigger threat.

Okay, but if Haitians actually were eating dogs, they should absolutely be stopped. Nobody has that right, I'm pretty sure.

Trump has issues with illegal Mexican immigration. And I stress the "illegal" part, because his detractors have spent 9 years and change pretending it doesn't exist, starting from the speech he announced he was running.

If anyone is falsely equating illegal immigrants with asylum seekers, it's the anti-Trump folks, not Trump. Being an illegal immigrant is still a crime, even if you are later granted asylum.

Which is a privilege, not a right.

Also, NO U is not an actual counterargument, and the left and press have lost a lot of their credibility with the public since 2020, and it was pretty low then.

If he's such a good president, why did he drop out?

Oh, right, he exposed his mental issues in public and embarrassing fashion, after years of the left and Dems denying right-wing criticisms of precisely that.

You mean the lockdowns and other restrictions which were, um, widely supported by the American left and Democrats?

Also, it's funny you bring that up, because the left was initially against Trump closing the borders, then complained he wasn't doing enough to stop COVID, often while they turned a blind eye to BLM breaking those exact same Rules.

Also also, the biggest Trump controversy of his Presidency - sorry, his first Presidency - was the "kids in cages", which started under Obama and continued under Big Joey.

But you wouldn't know it from the media, because the press only really cared under Trump.

Curious!

No, they're usually progressive-to-leftist.

I'm pretty sure I saw a lot of "leftists" who kept insisting everyone should vote -Biden- Harris, because Trump was a racist sexist fascist etc.

Many of them with flags in their pfps.

"I don't like radicalization. Also, all Republicans are insane, and saying you hate both mainstream parties instead of supporting for the Dems is radical."

I'm noticing a lot of pretentious, passive-aggressive sputtering and personal attacks in this paragraph, Mitch.

But not much of an actual argument.

I'm ignoring the others posts, because I shouldn't be typing anyway.

Listen to me. Listen to me right now. Two years from now people are going to tell you to vote for Democrats in the midterms. And you're going to shut the fuck up and do it.

#I checked the date expecting this to be from 2016 but it was yesterday#retard of the decade award!

ableist slurs but from the left!

I can use them from other directions if you want

Glanced at the abyss and all the queers apparently want to kill themselves, or think that they, as 20 to 30-something year olds, will be barred from getting any hormones in their blue states, because people want to ban the usage of puberty blockers and HRT on children. So now they're passing around medical advice to stockpile meds and DIY HRT, because all of them seem to love LARPing as powerless teenagers living under turbo-fascism.

These fuckers are grown-ass adults who are going to doordash away this month's rent money or send it all to random scammers pretending to be Gazan refugees, and they're acting like Trump is the worst thing to happen to their lives, when they are their own worst enemies.

I am now witnessing people twice as old as me (I am not young) unironically, unjokingly, talking about how we should all just kill ourselves because they sincerely believe that Trump, through the power of Project 2025 and the Supreme Court, has made himself the King of America and he is going to kill us all.

We've smashed right past overblown, childish theatrics into outright psychosis and delusional paranoia that, under any other circumstances, would be enough to institutionalize someone for acting this way.

Pour one out for all the theater kids who are frothing at the mouth to make some shitty Harry Potter reference, but instead have to swallow their pride and use quotes from LotR after the UK decided that reading Tolkien was a warning sign of extremist right-wing behavior.

I'm kinda glad the worst I'm getting is folks who keep talking about how America is in trouble in Youtube comments.

Girls with swords are great but there aren't enough girls with flanged maces or morning stars to go around. Give me a woman who does bludgeoning damage

Blunt-damage girls...

I make maces and flails but none wanted to be my blunt force wife

Girls with bardiche

To be fair,

Girl with hammer is kinda everywhere.

hunt source from here