round and round the winchesters go

Ruby screencaps: 19/∞

monsters of spn ↳ demons

spn demons meme || two one-off demons | tammi

What’s wrong? Couldn’t find my hex bag? Sorry, sweetheart, but your brother’s lungs should be on the floor by now.

"so, where is it?… The pizza that takes two guys to deliver?"

#I love the idea that she saw who it was#and KNEW that Dean being back was impossible#was freaky as well all Hell#and sort of terrifying#but her instinct was this IMMEDIATE casual cover#because you know what?#she’s awesome (via)

#I love Ruby so much.#I really really do. I just love her so much.#Literal fave morally grey lady there is in the series.#The ONLY morally grey demon we have ever fucking had.#And by god the actual best at what she does there has ever been.#I wish we’d seen her with Lucifer—that they didn’t fucking replace her with Chaotic Evil Meg as the ‘loyalest’ to her ‘god’.#Ruby did all the fucking work and then they killed her so they stuck Meg in her place.#That pisses me off; female characters are not interchangeable like that. We should’ve seen them interacting.#Duking it out for second in command and discussing the moral differences in demons who were ‘loyal’ to Lucifer.#It would have been such an interesting thing if Ruby actually was torn between her loyalty to her god (and her sister)#and her loyalty to Sam and Dean. It would have been SO fucking awesome to see that story.#Because the only demon who has ever seemed even slightly torn between her loyalties to Hell and her loyalties to humans is Ruby.#She is the closest to Cas we ever fucking got in demons

Yah.

Plus can we talk about Lilith in all of this, and how she tried to escape her destiny as the final sacrifice for Lucifer? She went to Sam in MatEotB SCARED because she’d found out the price for freeing her god was her life and she WANTED OUT. She was ready to screw Lucifer and put herself first. What changed her mind and made her commit to being the holy non-virgin sacrifice we was in the finale?

What did Ruby (and Meg) think of her almost betrayal to the cause?

Did Ruby secretly wish Sam had taken Lilith’s deal and freed Ruby from her role as manipulator, allowing her to be with him for real?

What was Ruby and Lilith’s relationship really like, considering Lilith was the only one who knew Ruby wasn’t a traitor to her kind? Did they have secret meetings? Worship Lucifer together? Or whisper their doubts in dark corners?

Damn it ALL THREE of these women were working the same angle and Ruby and Lilith AT LEAST were working it together. Some scenes of them together, like Cas’ scenes with Uriel and Zachariah, wouldn’t have been undesirable. 

In Meg’s case, I think she was a soldier, one who found fulfillment and guidance in her “father,” and then, once he was gone, she began to try to move forward in her own path. In my mind she was different from Ruby, mostly because I don’t think Ruby ever would have worked in the antagonist role that Meg took in seasons 1-2 and 5. I think Ruby was more about a path not taken.

In Lilith’s case, she was defined entirely by Lucifer’s hand, and ultimately, was there to die for him. She had little to no control over her life, which seemed to be referenced in the vessels she chose - young girls (who are often exploited by society), Ruby 1.0 (who had been exploited by Tammi and by Hell, and it sounded like she didn’t have too great of a life as a human either), and after Ruby, another attractive woman (who is often exploited by society).

In Ruby’s case, she was broken and destroyed when Tammi found her as a human. Tammi was able to use this to bring her into Hell, and from that point on Ruby was used and manipulated, pushed to do the same to Sam. I would guess that she’d probably never seen someone as pure as Sam, pure in ways he would be disgusted by (the demon blood and the darkness in him), but which she found to be beautiful and probably more of her ideal than most of what Hell had ever offered. I think if she’d had her way she and Sam - the real Sam, not Lucifer - would have ruled all and remade everything in their image.

What I want to know is why Ruby? I think that’s such an interesting question and it would have been SUCH an interesting story to explore. Because as far as we can tell, Ruby was a pretty average demon - she hasn’t been around for that long, and she’s treated just like every other demon. So why was she chosen, from the thousands of demons that exist? She describes herself as the most loyal, and better than all those other sons of bitches because no one knew what her loyalties actually were, barring Lillith.

I think part of it may have been her anonymity, so that she wouldn’t be seen as a liar when she told them she was just a demon trying to find a way out. I also tend to wonder if she was sort of tailored to Sam. I don’t know if she was or if she just grew to care about him the more time she spent with him. I could also see them maybe thinking she was easy for them to use to their whims, which is one of the reasons I’m sorry she died - I wanted to see her eventually break out of their control. I don’t think she ever would have been on a “team” with Sam and Dean, but I could see her being an independent operator and learning about herself on her own terms. 

One of the reasons I don’t see her as being similar to Meg is just because I think Ruby was put into a bad place for a long, long time, from long before she died. Meg went through a lot too, but I think she also felt that she belonged with Hell and she made the positives of Hell, whatever those may be, into her identity, her coat of armor. Ruby was different. And we never got to fully find out how or why.

What good points, rorycas. #Long post.

That actually, I think, is part of the reason why I know more people who relate to Meg than to Ruby (and why I think Meg is more like Abaddon, or at least would make a brilliant second in command, whereas Lilith and Ruby clearly made a better team--and don't even talk to me about how fucking ridiculous it is that we never saw these teams, when we've definitely seen a ton of men on Cas's or Raphael's, in the process of Hell changing hands from Lucifer to Crowley). People relate more to/idolize those who gain success by cloaking themselves in some harmful parts of the kyriarchy as armor than they do to people who are constantly, visibly, struggling to find their will and exert it for their own benefit (i.e. Rich female anti-feminist egalitarian Republicans vs. struggling-to-survive, often unpaid feminists).  

(That's also partially why I see Ruby and Castiel [who would eventually follow somewhat the same path as Anna to escape and try to reshape the abuse for their agency, I should mention /cough Ruby/Anna forever cough] as much more alike than Meg and Castiel, as I mention here. Castiel is still visibly struggling to reconcile the mentality abused into him by Heaven--in a literal sense, not just through socialization, as in Hell, but through literal mental recalibration by tyrannical tools of the leftover oppressive regime the archangels began (in addition to the emotional abuse and manipulation which effectively convinced Castiel he is the worst angel, or even as abominable as a cruel, remorseless demon.) 

I think that part of the reason Tammi and Lilith treated Ruby as they did had much to do with the fact that Ruby was struggling, she was having Castiel moments of 'doubt' because she 'liked Sam' but to a stronger extent because her love wasn't just the fascination and confusion and admiration and solidarity Castiel felt, it wasn't platonic, it actually had the strength to fight Hell's expectations on its own. I think that if Castiel were the bragging type--and hadn't been the one assigned to Dean, who is surprisingly difficult to manipulate

[I'm not saying Sam is easy, I'm saying part of why Dean has taken so long to fully fall to supernatural manipulation is because he's had One True Goal since his infancy inbuilt by John and apart from in complete hopelessness, nobody can manipulate him out of that, no matter how hard they try], he'd have been the one to make a similar speech of triumph in his being the loyalest to Heaven, and I think if Ruby had fully broken out of Hell's Plan before Lucifer--basically if Dean and Sam had reversed their roles of being successfully manipulated and successfully persuading their struggling manipulator--she would have made much the same kind of appeal Castiel did, I remember nothing but pain here before Tammi found me, at least Lucifer will give you the power to rule over much of this, and you'll have me, we'll have each other! only for Sam to convince her.)

In terms of Lilith, I think she chose the same way Meg chose in the end, to die for her cause because she had nothing else to do--she'd been so effectively changed into what Lucifer wanted her to be that she couldn't go back (and Lucifer's definitely a metatextual insert here, for the value of Lucifer meaning sexist fucking writers). What would she have done if she'd gotten away? The other side wouldn't have treated her kindly (and she'd have been on the run just like Castiel was from Lucifer sympathizers she'd betrayed), she had a long road of redemption to attempt if she wanted to not be part of Hell and do Lucifer's bidding, just like Meg would have, and I think they both just chose...not to survive and attempt that, because they were too aware of how much being 'Good' would suck. They were willing to die as revered antiheroes rather than to have to put in effort to live and actually start to learn and grow (which is not necessarily the same thing as suicide--suicide implies a freely given choice). I imagine there's a lot of this type of death in battlefields around the world; soldiers choosing to sign up for war after war, and/or to die as 'heroes' for their own cause rather than live to return to civilian life and have to fight through that irrevocably altered. (We've seen Dean be the same way.)

They martyred themselves for Lucifer's cause, as Lucifer tailored (an ironic choice of words, I think, in my case, because the one demon who just wouldn't do that at all is Crowley, who lost his tailor trying to survive and thrive) demons to do (after angels--oh the fucking meta I could write about how Lucifer is the original demon because he just combined the worst parts of what he is as an angel with the worst parts of humanity to create them, feeling sure it was the 'easily corrupted', not the corruptor, who was the problem, the original emotionally manipulative victim-blamer).

In terms of the reasons for it being Ruby who was chosen, I think you are right and it was very much that Ruby, an ordinary demon, one of the most abused for her use of agency, was tailored into being the perfect fit for Sam--just like my headcanon of Castiel being God's perfect fit for Dean; not in a romantic sense necessarily, just, the one who doesn't have to falsely identify with Dean because they are walking paths that lead the same direction--and that's part of why it was hard to see what came with her coming, because she was struggling with the Plan, just as Sam was, seeing freeing Lucifer as the answer to all her--everybody's--problems the same way Castiel did God in S5.

I also think unlike Meg, daughter to one of the most powerful demons in Hell (and, my personal headcanon, somewhere on the bloodline of angels rather than of humans who were corrupted, which is part of why she was so excited to have Lucifer take back Heaven--she didn't seem to be excited for the sake of her soul going to Heaven so much as the army conquering Heaven, and being second-in-command to Lucifer makes more sense if she's more angelic), Ruby and Castiel were fairly low on the totem pole for their dangerous anonymity, like you mentioned.

I'm pretty sure, in fact, that Ruby and Castiel were also pretty equally unaware of the endgames of their respective superiors: Ruby wanted Lucifer to save her, and Castiel wanted the Apocalypse to end humanity's suffering, but neither of those things would likely have happened. Being that low on the totem pole meant being more easily controlled, and I firmly believe that the only reason that Castiel was able to even attempt to stop Heaven's plans while Ruby continued Hell's is God's Will in giving him, and exposing him, to Dean instead of Sam. If they'd been Sam-like Ruby trying to work on Dean and Dean-like Cas trying to work on Sam, I don't think it'd have worked out the way it did.

In that vein, in my opinion, Meg is more along the lines of Uriel (Chaotic Evil but able to be recruited to a Lawful Evil cause; I could very very easily see Uriel playing the type of antagonist role Meg did in S1/S2 and S5--or even Zachariah, who did play that type of role in S4/S5) and so she was likely the one behind the scenes making sure Lilith and Ruby played their parts even as they both could start to recognize the abysmal ways they led, for the sake of Lucifer's Plan, which would do what she wanted it to do, which was, give her power back--put her on top

(and, my personal headcanon, let her escape Crowley: it's my suspicion, based upon timelines and bloodlines, that contrary to popular belief which reverses this, Meg was the Alastair to Crowley's Dean, but Crowley took to Hell like a duck to water [as Dean may this season for different reasons?] because he was already slimy and remorseless and self-serving as fuck [as befits his 'reason' for selling his soul and his choice of vessel] and thus by the point of S5, had built himself a reputation of being the future mutineer of Hell--in it to win it--who would come after her vengefully when he did so, which would explain why she was so nervous about Cas mentioning him in S5 and why he spent so much time and energy coming after her when he's never done that for someone less powerful than he is before or since).

So, for those keeping count: Ruby (if she'd lived) = Castiel/Sam/Anna, Tammi?/Lilith = Uriel and/or other angels who struggled to survive but found they'd little choice but to martyr themselves for Heaven's cause out of helpless loyalty, Meg = Zachariah/Alastair(/Naomi), Crowley = Dean (/Metatron, and P.S. only Hell!Dean/Levi!Dean/2014 Dean; our Dean has the chance to escape that and I think part of it could be his choice to kill Crowley as a literal manifestation). I'm not saying they're identical, exact comparisons, but I do think in terms of position in Hell vs. Heaven or Earth and moral alignment in terms of how much their abuse/socialization has/could have helped to construct (by the time we meet them) who they are/what they chose, that's where they lie.

Funny story actually. You remember all those dark demonic forces you prayed to, when you swore your servitude? Just who did you think you were praying to? What did you think it was? Make believe? Positive thinking? The Secret? No, it was me. You sold yourself to me, you pig.

we’ve been here before, haven’t we?

spn ladies meme || ten one-off characters | Tammi

"What did you think it was? Make believe? Positive thinking? The Secret? No, it was me. You sold yourself to me, you pig! All I had to do is bring one good book to book club and you ladies lined up to kiss my ass.”