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#lilith – @selfihateyouithink on Tumblr
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round and round the winchesters go

@selfihateyouithink / selfihateyouithink.tumblr.com

I am an Angel of the Lord who probably would do well in finance, and I don't like to do what people expect. Thirty-four. White USian. Autistic, anxious depressive (with PTSD). Nonbinary/genderqueer (demigirl). She/they pronouns. Sex-indifferent pan gay greyromantic demisexual. INFP/ISFP. Survivor. Socialist. Feminist. Relativist. Agnostic atheist. Struggling college student (yes, still). Honest misanthrope (because humans are works of art but humanity is tainted by its hatreds, conceits, and deceits), almost never neutral (because the status quo isn't), and unapologetic slasher 'til death do I stop. I am things, I question things, I like things, I hate things, I watch things, I read things, I write things, I say things, I do things. Things happen on this blog.
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holyhael
lilith x ruby catholic school au for transruby
#At first I agreed with Lisa on her tag because#Lilith x Ruby cw#is rape and abuse and little else...but then#Nah because Catholic schools are hives of abuse and rape of devout closeted queer girls#Upper left reads to me as wary but defiant student!Ruby and bottom right reads as imperious upper class teacher!Lilith#Lilith is a closeted bisexual herself who uses the fact that outing Ruby would RUIN her#to keep abusing and raping her barely legal 17 y.o. student (with flirtatious texts and emails kept as insurance)#Especially because she's dating academic prodigy!Sam from the all-boys school across town#Ruby clings to her God because they tell her queerness is wrong and Lilith's high in the clergy too high to be disbelieved#And it HURTS because Ruby BEGGED to go to a Catholic school away from the boys in public school#who treat a girl who believes like her but dresses and acts like her as a fun toy to play with#Her blue nails and ripped jeans and sailor's mouth (all repented appropriately of course) entice the girls too though#The WOMAN who teaches her and has all of the power to use her as she will because Ruby can do nothing#She's started having sex with Sam too and Lilith knows and Ruby's just TRAPPED#Her parents would disown her if they knew what Lilith could tell them and...would Sam even stick by her?#Ruby#Lilith#Femslash#SPN rape tag#Abuse cw#It's not like she doesn't self loathingly feel the safest with agnostic!Sam and his atheist brother who treat her WELL#But would he? She knows how closeted bisexual girls get treated and Lilith is...convincing.#Yeah. Canon characterization compliant utterly fucked up#Catholic school AU#Ladies of SPN#Women as credible threats is a thing#LADY CHARACTERS#Supernatural#Fandom
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"so, where is it?… The pizza that takes two guys to deliver?"

Yah.

Plus can we talk about Lilith in all of this, and how she tried to escape her destiny as the final sacrifice for Lucifer? She went to Sam in MatEotB SCARED because she’d found out the price for freeing her god was her life and she WANTED OUT. She was ready to screw Lucifer and put herself first. What changed her mind and made her commit to being the holy non-virgin sacrifice we was in the finale?

What did Ruby (and Meg) think of her almost betrayal to the cause?

Did Ruby secretly wish Sam had taken Lilith’s deal and freed Ruby from her role as manipulator, allowing her to be with him for real?

What was Ruby and Lilith’s relationship really like, considering Lilith was the only one who knew Ruby wasn’t a traitor to her kind? Did they have secret meetings? Worship Lucifer together? Or whisper their doubts in dark corners?

Damn it ALL THREE of these women were working the same angle and Ruby and Lilith AT LEAST were working it together. Some scenes of them together, like Cas’ scenes with Uriel and Zachariah, wouldn’t have been undesirable. 

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rorycas

In Meg’s case, I think she was a soldier, one who found fulfillment and guidance in her “father,” and then, once he was gone, she began to try to move forward in her own path. In my mind she was different from Ruby, mostly because I don’t think Ruby ever would have worked in the antagonist role that Meg took in seasons 1-2 and 5. I think Ruby was more about a path not taken.

In Lilith’s case, she was defined entirely by Lucifer’s hand, and ultimately, was there to die for him. She had little to no control over her life, which seemed to be referenced in the vessels she chose - young girls (who are often exploited by society), Ruby 1.0 (who had been exploited by Tammi and by Hell, and it sounded like she didn’t have too great of a life as a human either), and after Ruby, another attractive woman (who is often exploited by society).

In Ruby’s case, she was broken and destroyed when Tammi found her as a human. Tammi was able to use this to bring her into Hell, and from that point on Ruby was used and manipulated, pushed to do the same to Sam. I would guess that she’d probably never seen someone as pure as Sam, pure in ways he would be disgusted by (the demon blood and the darkness in him), but which she found to be beautiful and probably more of her ideal than most of what Hell had ever offered. I think if she’d had her way she and Sam - the real Sam, not Lucifer - would have ruled all and remade everything in their image.

Eeee, fun!

Like the thoughts here on Meg and Lilith. Yup. Though I would add that Meg was an undisciplined soldier - impatient, impulsive, questioning her father’s orders etc. I don’t think it was until after Azazel died that she started to properly develop her ‘pick a cause and let it order your life’ philosophy.

Love the thoughts on Ruby’s past and how Sam would have appeared ‘pure’/beautiful to her (someone else made a post about how Sam would have been something like a demon ‘Jesus’, and I think that fits quite well). But, idk, I think if she’d stuck with Sam they wouldn’t have ruled together, I think there was still a spark of humanity in Ruby that Sam could have helped bring back to life and she could have tried to work her way to redemption (I certainly see that possibility in Ruby FAR MORE than in Meg).

#Long post.

I've had a while to think about this and respond to this post again and.

Lilith was framed as a 'new up-and-comer' in S3 and still very dangerous in S4, kind of back-and-forth self-directed and being used, and seemed to have all the power and presence that entailed. Lilith seemed, for the most part, completely aware of what Lucifer wanted to the extent of details--understandable, as she's his First Child, except for the part when she realized fully how he'd get it and faltered immediately because she wanted the new world order (like Casey) but she wanted to be in that world. She wanted to kill Dean, corrupt Sam, and follow him as Lucifer into the demonic takeover. She's the mistress French kings use for knowledge and aid but then kill to retain their own power and escape the woman's hold.

Meg was framed as someone who was Chaotic Evil but knew when to hitch her plans to someone else's and go Lawful. A survivalist above all else, a mastermind of tyranny secondarily, she seemed to want--more than just Lilith's "getting to the good part"--to rule, with Lucifer. While Lilith does the dirty work and Ruby does the grooming of the most important factor, Sam, Meg is more down for enjoying the benefits. I have no doubt her Yellow-Eyed father promised her they'd rule (but didn't say how, to the point that she doesn't even know why Dean and Sam are important, and would rather just waste them), and when Lucifer gained her loyalty in her father's stead as second-in-command, it clearly was with this same promise, that she'd have the world at her feet. Meg's an imperialist and Lucifer's promised her her own continent, basically. "Lucifer's going to take over Heaven! We're going to Heaven, Clarence! You cloud-hopping pansies lost the whole damn universe." She's like Zachariah, petty and power-hungry and loyal only to the head honcho cos Mama likes it on top.

This continues when Lucifer is gone; she doesn't think Crowley deserves to rule, would never serve someone without the power of Azazel or Lucifer, and she's scared of the power via relational aggression (HER FORTE) someone she loathes [they seem like rivals in Hell to me, from S5 on] is accruing, so she finds the closest likely Judases in Crowley's employ (and then Crowley's powerful, surviving enemies number one, first and foremost Castiel, the "power where she can get it") to point them toward what she wants done and claim she's "Good" now. Meg's being "kinda Good" is all about survival and defeating her main political rival in Hell and as he expands upon Earth, up until her last moments, when she doesn't care about surviving any more, she just hates Crowley so much that she'd stab herself if the blade came out the other side to stab him too--that's her defining trait the last episode, the cause she'd die for, to kill Crowley because he took away her victory and she'd never bow to him, power or no, to save the only other people who have a shot at doing that if she loses because nothing is more important than that hatred.

It wasn't a case of her following the wrong, unfortunately Evil cause without knowing it and then "learning and growing" after Lucifer no longer controlled her loyalties with his lies. She followed the same kind of cause until her death: her own, led by her own oppressive desires, whether to rule or to survive or to assassinate or to manipulate or rape or to avenge or to retaliate. That Lucifer tricked her by using those desires when he'd never reward them never made a difference in that she chose rule and cruelty, survival at anyone's expense, the most likely victory, and never changed from doing so. The only at all respectable or altruistic thing she ever did out of her own Free Will was acknowledge how doomed her obsession with Castiel was and let him go, recognize he's not and won't ever be hers ("unicorns" aren't meant to be caught, and she and Sam both idealized that "connection" and ignored how it could never last), and still think he deserved to be saved, with his Don equivalent, even mostly just to kill her enemy. (Fandom keeps trying to take that only bit of good anything away from her by forcing Cas to be with her, by romanticizing her predatory "love" instead of her recognition of his choice [his repeated choice] not to be with her, anyway, but yeah.)

Ruby, by contrast, was exploited in her obedience and loyalty and desperation to help the world (and her own) like Castiel was: she was a grunt, not making the same kind of informed choice Meg or Lilith did. It was clear that they only told her so much, that most of the things she did were led by Lilith and loyalty to one side of Hell (I'd bet my left foot that that side involved Meg and Azazel but they were very careful not to tell Lilith or Ruby the whole story and maintain their own power; also that Alastair and Tammi were on the other side as she hated them). It was clear by the way she reacted that instead of wanting to rule, she saw Sam as a messiah of some kind, "you've saved us!" and that she would have cared more about how that salvation happened (and what it did to humans and some other demons), more than Meg or Lilith ever seemed to. Ruby was the only one who seemed to care that the cause or many of the methods were moral (which is part of why I really hate that they killed her right after her duplicitous reveal, instead of letting her choose). She was following orders, like Castiel, and once she realized her god wouldn't save anyone, her precious Sam included, she'd have very likely defected. Ruby thought demons were saved, not about to rule; she wanted, broken and manipulated, Lucifer to save everybody, including demons, humans, and all the in-betweens left in Hell or on Earth, herself and Sam included.

Lilith was the powerful and informed strategist with a survivalist streak, Meg was the petty tyrant always chasing victory over everyone and the spoils (including Cas at first, that last episode, but lol no, she gave up on that when she gave up on surviving killing Crowley), Ruby was the loyal and desperate soldier who just wanted out of the control of Hell, salvation for her and her species, and was given few choices as to how to accomplish that, told the plan was just.

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a few of the many things i liked: comparing abaddon to wonderwoman (so many questions about demon system of morality brought up. so. many.), portrayal of ruby as a leader instead of lillith, team free will parallels, ANNA/RUBY (subtle anna/ruby BUT STILL), discussing demon/angel relationships on a whole instead of specifically (also irony because, yknow, anna/ruby), fantastic metaphors in writing, literally just. accuracy. i love them all so much im adding your profile to my computer bookmarks

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!!!!

I actually don't know much about Wonder Woman--I was mostly using it as a reference to how much hero worship follows Abaddon. But yes! Yes, I agree, I would love to know more about that.

Yeah, I always thought Lilith and Ruby were about the same level in the hierarchy, under Meg (parallel to Uriel and Castiel, under Zachariah). About as interchangeable as the latter, as well, depending upon which one of them was stepping out of line. (I think Lilith was terrifying to Ruby in S3, as Ruby seemed to hint, but that she was kind of declawed when Meg returned to order the two of them to a) die for the cause and b) manipulate Sam and Dean for the cause in S4.)

Yes! Anna/Ruby, but more from Anna's side, cos Ruby looked at Anna more as leverage. And yes! Angel/demon relations were obviously very weird to most angels; Anna does say 'Ruby's not like other demons', implying she's well aware of how typical their awfulness is, so I'm sure she would have understood the weirdness of Meg's Cas-boner. 

Hee, thank you uwu.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm so fucking excited about that, thank you so much. There may be more coming this week or the next, depending upon homework! :D

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SPN Ladies Meme | 10 Scenes [1/10] | Lilith’s Death/Ruby’s Betrayal

"You turned yourself into a freak. A monster. And now you’re not gonna bite? I’m sorry, but that is honestly adorable."
 /~*~*~\
"You don’t even know how hard this was! All the demons out for my head. No one knew. I was the best of those sons of bitches! The most loyal! Not even Alastair knew! Only Lilith! Yeah, I’m sure you’re a little angry right now, but, I mean, come on, Sam! Even you have to admit — I’m — I’m awesome!"
"You bitch. You lying bitch!"
"Don’t hurt yourself, Sammy. It’s useless. You shot your payload on the boss."
"The blood… You poisoned me."
"No. It wasn’t the blood. It was you… and your choices. I just gave you the options, and you chose the right path every time. You didn’t need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time, Dumbo! I know it’s hard to see it now… but this is a miracle. So long coming. Everything Azazel did, and Lilith did. Just to get you here. And you were the only one who could do it."
"Why? W-why me?"
"Because… because it had to be you, Sammy. It always had to be you. You saved us. You set him free. And he’s gonna be grateful. He’s gonna repay you in ways that you can’t even imagine."
-4x22 Lucifer Rising
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