JayHelenaTim JayHelenaTim JayHelenaTim !!!!

i feel like you slammed into my home like the Kool-Aid man and told me you had a new religion and i'm DELIGHTED bc sign me up-

this ship has SO much potential oh my god. i always prefer JayHelena with a third just bc i think it balances them (and keeps them from literally eating each other alive) well and provides the a third person to direct their intensity toward. and Tim is just. so good. bc Tim would try to separate them at first. he *likes* Helena and she's basically his older sister and she wants Jason nowhere *near* her. so when he realizes slowly that Jason is around Helena and they're sleeping together, Tim is losing it. he straight up tries to fight Jason about it i think. and Jason is wildly amused bc he's always delighted when something he does gets under Tim's skin and this time, he didn't even have to do it on purpose.

love the idea of like. Helena having to hold Tim back from going off on Jason and just mauling him. while Tim is trying to get between Helena and Jason when they start to argue. and Jason is just here for the carnage. he likes Helena, but he likes her even *more* when she's holding Tim back and being kind and protective of him. bc Helena and Jason have very different ideas of how to take care of Tim. so when Helena is kind and trying to calm Tim down, Jason wants to be the one riling him up.

and Helena is caught between knowing Jason has eyes for Tim while she's convinced her feelings for Tim are entirely familial. but the more Jason looks like he wants to devour Tim the more she realizes Jason *might* have a point. something something corruption kink. and that's not even getting into the morality of Tim surrounded by two ppl who are very steadfast on being pro-murder and how they'd slowly break him down. he's surrounded by the rhetoric so much he can't help but see the points to it. maybe he never wants to kill someone, but when Helena and Jason race to kill someone first, Tim feels stuck in place just watching it happen bc he's so entranced by the sight.

honestly i'd give anything to write that fic- Jason and Helena fighting over who gets to kill some generic villain. maybe they matter or maybe its just the principle of the argument. and Tim just watches knowing he should stop them but he can't. he has ample time to get the villain to safety as Jason and Helena brawl but Tim if anything, is holding the villain down to make sure they *don't* run bc he's sort of curious who's going to win this. and when whoever wins finally gets the kill, the tell Tim he was being so good for holding down the villain and he gets a bloody kiss on the cheek. and then they probably all fuck nasty about it idk.

anyway- i think this ship is neat. Jason and Helena both have a love for Tim that comes in *very* different shades and they could be absolutely unhinged about each other if you put them in the same room alone for even two seconds. there would be blood. whose blood? that's the fun of it. you never know.

i see your jason/helena/roy idea, and raise you a roy/dick and jason/helena becoming a weird polycule. the two couples keep crossing paths and it somehow turns into a roy/dick/jason/helena relationship.

ooooh YES. especially with the canon history of HelenaDick thown in-

bc then there's the joke/angle ppl always take with JayRoy of "oh Jason keeps stealing Dick's friends/exes", except this time, it's Helena who's Dick's ex that Jason just happened to steal. even funnier if he didn't mean to steal her and the first time they slept together was early on in Jason's Red Hood days and Helena really had no idea that this new guy on the scene had any sort of connection to Bruce or Diick. i think Helena and Jason are a fun couple for "this started as hatefucking but now i go to you if i need to be stitched up and if someone hits on you i'm burning down a building idk what label exists for that, do you" sort of vibe. where they won't say they're dating, even deny they're dating pretty vehemently if they're asked- but also wholly devoted in a "matching each other's freak" sort of way.

meanwhile Dick and Roy have settled into "domestic husbands without a ring" territory. they had their ups and downs in their youth and probably dated as teens, broke up for a few years bc their life paths took them in different directions, but came back together through Dick trying to help with Lian and it naturally worked out into a relationship. they still have their issues but they're sort of seen as the old married couple of the Titans that everyone knew was going to get together sooner or later bc they were the only ppl who could match each other's toxic. bc even at their best, these two are still a hot mess who can't process their emotions individually, let alone together. they argue a lot and will get in each other's face, but they always make up. usually with sex.

and i love the idea they just can't crossing paths. it's bad enough Dick has to see his ex, but his ex with Jason? that's even worse. bc there are all sorts of unresolved feelings around Jason. and it doesn't help that Roy passingly blurts out that yeah, he slept with Helena once while they were on a break. so they try to avoid running into each other on all sides, which makes inevitable team-ups even more awkward. i think it's fun if Helena breaks the tension with a crass joke just so everyone can move on. but one thing leads to another and. i think it's funny if they all swear it's a one-night stand. maybe it's not the first time swinging for one or either couple, so this is a little weird, but they swear to never speak of it again and move on.

i think them being unable to stop seeing each other. Roy is in Gotham to see Dick anyway, but now he's definitely around to see Jason and Helena, to "check up on them". and Dick wants to be angry, but he's doing the same thing. these losers cannot stop running into each other. and they can't stop matching each other's freak. Jason and Helena leave dead bodies at Roy and Dick's doorstep like courting presents, entirely uncoordinated. Dick just wants to be asked out like a normal person, Roy is sort of amused by the whole thing. i love the idea of Jason and Helena convinced they're never going to get anything outside of sex from Dick and Roy so they're sort of trying to outdo each other at some point once they find out about each other's antics, just as a running inside joke. neither of them expect it to actually work until Roy mentions that he made a reservation for four, for his next date with Dick and doesn't say another word bc the invitation is obvious.

i do think they could work well as a real polycule too. all of these characters have some kind of history and are drawn into each other's weird interpersonal lives. and they'd all be wildly possessive over each other, which makes for very fun sex. anyway you're enlightened for this pairing and i am going to be thinking about them nonstop now, ty <3

Jason and Helena teaming up and realizing they wanna kill different people so when Roy is like stopping Helena from doing something like a mercy killing someone innocent who in Helena’s view is magically/sci-fi corrupted by a vilian past the point of being saved Jason’s like YEAH Helena you’re a real scumbag and when Roy is holding Jason back from shooting a guy who was involved but mostly just in their way and definitely not the Big Bad Helena’s like you’re disgusting Jason even Roy thinks it. Idk why this turned into Roy having the leads of two backpack leashes in his hands

YEAH YOU GET IT. YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LETHAL JUSTICE VIEWS.

bc Helena is DEFINITELY a mercy killer. bc to her that is genuinely kindness for certain situations and she believes it's her job to do what heroes like Batman *won't* bc sometimes, it's the only way to bring someone peace. killing *is* kindness to Helena in some situations. and generally she's *not* going to go after lower level foot soldiers. bc they're just that, foot soldiers and there will always be more and most of them probably didn't choose to end up in this situation. when she kills, she tends to kill Big Names, people higher up whose deaths will make a difference.

as for Jason, he objectively views the actions of a person above who they are as a person. if they have done Bad Things, then they have done Bad Things there is no grey area to him. he has killed lower level ppl simply bc they did something he did not like or approve of. and for Helena, there's more nuance. so there'd be a deep level of clashing on certain aspects of who they think should be killed. just bc they're both pro-lethal justice does *not* mean it's in the same situations, which is the one thing i wish ppl understood about them when drawing comparisons.

also love them dragging Roy into it. their arguments will always lead to "well Roy agrees with me" bc sure, Roy *is* probably going to agree with not killing someone no matter who says it. he rlly does have two backpack leashes and he cannot leave either of them alone for too long bc someone will die. or they'll try to kill each other.

also interesting on the *very* rare occasion when Roy does want to commit lethal justice, bc he has been known to do so if something gets personal enough for him, how Helena and Jason react. Helena, who believes in lethal justice *because* of her "blood for blood, omerta" mentality would be supportive. and Jason, who believes Bruce should've killed the Joker, would also likely be supportive. sure, it's scary when Arsenal is holding back Huntress or Red Hood from killing. but it's somehow much scarier when Huntress and Red Hood are letting Arsenal kill someone bc that's how you know you *really* fucked up. them helping him through the aftermath of murder could be so fun too, bc he tends not to cope with it as well as they do, so it'd be a very complicated situation. i think sometimes they might kill someone *for* Roy, just so Roy doesn't have to deal with the emotional weight of doing it himself. which is always *so* fun.

re: your thoughts on new52 version of jayroy because roy harper was done so dirty that I can’t stand that ship, but you can make it good and I appreciate it

I have a vague idea for a jayroy/outlaws rewrite that leans into roy’s pre52 characterization because honestly I think they could have a decent friendship, like you said Roy isn’t a stranger to working with people he morally disagrees with. Roy also has a habit of taking people under his wing when he think they need support (I miss grant) and I think that if he saw Jason at his worst, angry, violent and hurting, then he’d still try and help him even if he wasn’t his best friend’s little brother.

I think that a romantic relationship between them would be a little harder to justify when you keep to Roy’s original character, he knows a lot about trying to fix people with love and just how much it doesn’t work. sleeping together casually is one thing but dating is another, and rule number 2 for recovering addicts is don’t get into a new relationship, is it the same for recovering villains? He can’t be that person who takes advantage of someone at their lowest Or be a conscience for someone, talking them down from bad decisions. I imagine that Roy sets pretty firm boundaries early on, and Jason doesn’t push him on this since it’s supposedly just causal.

The best way to shake things up between the two of them is to add a third person to the mix lmao, things would never progress past the fuckbuddies stage without some drama. You’ve gotta add Dick or Tim or Helena or Donna or Bruce for some spice

first of all, for you to just passingly mention the idea of HelenaJayRoy without any further thoughts how DARE you anon that was the most enlightened thing you could've said- /lh

BUT YES I AGREE. i think Outlaws *could* have worked, which is the most frustrating thing about it. i don't think Kori was the right pick, simply bc *why was she there* but i do agree, you *could've* made Roy work. there's this belief in Outlaws that somehow Jason is the one saving and helping Roy get back on his feet and Roy is leaning on Jason. but for me to make it work, it'd *have* to be other way around. like you said, with Roy being the one trying to take Jason under his wing and set him on the right path.

bc when it comes to superhero teams, a lot of times you can shove just about anyone together under the right justification or circumstances. so Jason and Roy working together could *easily* be pulled off, i just think they needed another more grounded, street-level vigilante/anti-hero to balance them out instead of someone like Kori who either feels like the deus ex machina solving everything *or* incredibly nerfed so the plot doesn't just revolve her fixing things instantly. really a lot of picks could've worked, but i *love* the idea of Helena. just bc i'd give anything for DC to give us a proper comic team-up between Helena and Jason. on a surface they *seem* like they should work well- lethal justice, protector of the marginalized, driven by vengeance. but i could see them heavily clashing and arguing over schematics and each other's methodologies. so putting someone who doesn't believe in murder at all like Roy in the middle is fun. especially with Roy finally having some semblance of adult stability after his addiction and having a child, he'd naturally fall into the role of being the one in charge, trying to guide the others. he has a habit of wanting to help others get their lives back on track bc well, he knows how it feels to be at rock bottom and feel like everyone gave up on you. there's definitely levels where Roy could sympathize with Jason, and possibly even agree with him. Roy's storyline with addiction existed to be meta-commentary on how parents fail their children going through addiction by not providing communal support, so a lot of Jason's feelings on how he was failed by Bruce (and adult heroes fail their sidekicks as a whole) can be reflected in Roy's experiences. Jason's beliefs on how sidekicks shouldn't exist and superheroes don't do enough is something Roy could possibly even agree with. i would've *loved* to see an Outlaws run acknowledging that Roy is far more emotionally mature than Jason and trying to help Jason out as Jason doesn't want it.

and like the said, that makes the relationship more fun. bc even if feelings develop, Roy's not going to jump on them for fear of taking advantage of Jason and potentially backsliding Jason's progress they've made inch by inch. it makes their friendship and relationship far more slow and careful. and adding Helena, imo, is a lot of fun. bc while she agrees with Jason's lethality, she'd have a bit more emotional stability going into the team. this is a woman who has a full time day job as a teacher and has worked on the Birds of Prey. while she doesn't have the teenage sidekick experience, she certainly has a level of "real world" experience, and a closeness to growing up around crime and tragedy. while Helena also has her emotional misgivings, they're very different from Jason's. a lot of Helena's character is driven by feeling trapped as a little girl, paralyzed by fear, witnessing a tragedy she can't stop. and Huntress is her way to try and break free of that. she's running from her trauma in a way, where as Jason is running *at* it. that's the difference. Jason wants to boldly face his trauma in bloody ways and force everyone else to face it too, even if it means that's all he'll be, bc that's all he sees himself as anyway. Helena wants to escape it and prove she's bigger than it. she doesn't want it to be her defining trait. sure she got her vengeance, but she tried to move on from it and make her identity something more.

so i think she could provide a level of stability to the relationship in that she'd try to force Jason to move on from the worst of his feelings. his trauma is always going to follow him a little, but he can't keep letting it define him. especially when they're all trying to work together on a team. it makes the three of them getting together a lot of fun bc there's balance in all directions. Roy cares about them both and has getting very comfortable with working with them, and they all have clear, unspoken feelings. i think it's fun if Roy is trying so hard not to take advantage of Jason while Jason is pissed that Roy thinks Jason isn't in the mindspace to make his own decisions about what he wants. i think he'd make a move on Helena just to prove his point and get Roy to finally cave and join in. Roy knows Helena won't take Jason's shit and won't let Jason go off the deep end just bc he's upset, she's very no-nonsense about it all to contrast Roy's more gentle attempts to reasoning.

anyway now i have a new rarepair idea ty anon i'm in love with you. i usually say i don't ship Helena/Jason just bc i think they're too intense for each other, but with Roy in the mix there's a really good balance that makes it work *so* well. i'm going to be thinking about this forever.