I'm in the minority, apparently, but put me down for YES. This show and my little corner of its fandom have given me a lot of joy over the years.
#Uh yeah hello someone has to watch John and Eurus get married
I'll watch it so I can read thousands of words of fresh meta (the best part)
that IS the best part, yes! :)
i would watch bbcs s5 completely opposite of how i first watched s4 - with third eye open and ready to hysterically laugh and jeer and boo bc i AINT getting GOT again, however if they go canon i am prepared to moonwalk into backtracking so fucking fast. it’s not hypocritical or bandwagoning if i warn yall first, like this is just my attitude on the matter and the plan i will deploy
I'm in the minority, apparently, but put me down for YES. This show and my little corner of its fandom have given me a lot of joy over the years.
depends a lot on the whole leadup. if the showrunners are being smug about rug pulling, then i will wait till the reports come in from other people. i really don't need a repeat of s3 & 4.
i was only aware of this “comedy” article in my periphery for a while now, but since i only ever saw this comment referred to as “sherlock is a comedy” and not “sherlock is comedy show”, i understood it to mean sherlock is a comedy in the context that its not a tragedy. because those are the two types of stories. if its sad and there’s no happy ending, its a tragedy. everything else is a comedy, no matter how few “jokes” there are, or how unfunny you personally find it.
this is really only reinforced coming from moffat, who we have come to know is the responsible for most of the shows emotional moments. gatiss does the shock and horror bits, moffat does the love and romance. would you not argue that romance as a genre are usually comedy stories? isnt that the point of romance? to give characters their happy ending? but season 4 certainly felt like a tragedy didnt it? which means if a creator claims the show is a comedy, the story’s probably not over yet, right? hm?
Do the last copyrights expire immediately on January 1, 2023 or sometime during the year? I keep seeing "2023" but I'm unclear about whether it's the first day of the year. I would love if they planned some new content or at least an announcement as a surprise/celebration for that day. I think it's what they're waiting for--- so they can reveal that Johnlock has been embedded in the show all along right under their noses and do it as a kind of "fuck you" to the heirs and doubters.
it's january 1! i'm fairly sure we'd know by now if new content were coming our way on january 1, but i can't rule out an announcement i suppose!
an announcement would be pretty amazing. my guess is, if it's the copyright expiration they are waiting for, then they have to wait for that to be truly finished, before they can write a word of s5. then it's for sure that they are well in the clear.
That is a dead giveaway!
Notice how he doesn’t say that it’s possibly the last series or that they need a break.
He says a break is intended because of what happens in S4, which is all not real. Because on the face of S4 - No, a break is not needed for S5 where supposedly John and Sherlock are to raise Rosie together now that everything’s hunky-dory and that they’re back on solving cases after Mary’s shit background speech about how it’s all about the legend and the stories and how no one cares who they really are and “My bakerstreet boys” *yuck*
I think we may have very well watched a reverse Garriddebs through subtext, after all that was still hanging in TFP - Sherlock’s in a coma, John has killed Mary to avenge Sherlock, there’s no Rosie, there is no Eurus. John’s waiting for Sherlock to regain consciousness cos he absolutely cannot loose his madman again.
i will not be surprised at this point, if there is a s5 and it makes no mention of any of the "But They Have To Resolve XYZ!" issues we've all been chewing over for years. and i won't care how "cheeky" they think that is, as long as it's three REwatchable shows. main challenge now is, una stubbs is no longer with us.
So, about that interview... Moftiss are saying that they would do more Sherlock stories, now, that they have ideas and could start writing tomorrow if it wasn't for Ben's and Martin's schedules. Hmm, but can I be happy that they're talking about it? Maybe they're starting to prepare us for the big news? They've already talked with the actors and know when they can film? I just want Sherlock back. Especially now. I know they planned 5 seasons and we would be desperate for S5, but I'm really ready for this hiatus to end. In the meantime, I'll re-read your TFP meta ; )
personally, i don't expect to see anything concrete till after the copyright runs out at the end of this year. but it does make sense for them to recycle the "we'd love to do more" line so that it's clear that they would, but that nothing has actually been written yet. if it is *written* before the copyright expiration, then that could be an issue.
interesting that sherlock’s dvd in mhr was the first.
interesting that sherlock was definitely still alive when john got it tho.
hmm.
Honestly, if they go there on S5, then it’s even worse than I thought. Try to convince me then THAT would not be lazy writing. Good lord.
yeah, i would just as soon not see that particular parallel play out. but it is a (potential) parallel.
apropos of nothing for S5 I don’t want them to address Mrs Hudson like she’s passed away, I don’t want a funeral scene, none of that. I want her to have won the lottery and be off on a whirlwind trip around the world because she’s always wanted to travel but never was able to. I want her to be happy and off-screen. No sadness.
YES PLEASE
Hello! Playing devil's advocate here, but surely we'd at least have had an announcement for s5 by now if tjlc was real and s5 was really coming? Doesn't it maybe seem more likely that the signs pointing to s5 and tjlc were a combination of being led on ("fans will be desperate for s5"), queerbaiting (some of the more obvious (which, tbh, most were) indicators of johnlock), reading too much into things (some of the less obvious indicators) and coincidence (the whole fourth pip thing)? Again, devil's advocate - I personally do think there are a couple too many loose threads for no s5 - but I'd be interested in your answer
Hi there. We’re not sure what kind of answer you’re really looking for and what your knowledge base/experience is with tjlc, so we’ll try to answer in the simplest way possible while covering our bases.
First, if any part of you is asking these questions because it’s coming from a place of insecurity and needing confirmation before allowing yourself to “hope,” then we’re not the people to ask. That is not a healthy way to engage with a TV show theory, nor is it an objective way to engage with it. It’s important to not doubt your ability to cope with being “wrong.” As my therapist once put it, “confident” people don’t have confidence that they will never make a mistake, rather they know they can handle their reaction to mistakes. Mistakes will not shatter their happiness or make them a total failure. It is the fear of doubt and being wrong which will hold you back more than healthy skepticism ever will (This advice may not apply to you, but it does apply to a fair number of people past and present).
That being said…there isn’t one single piece of evidence (or even two or three) I could offer that would sell a potential series 5 without the added context of everything tjlc related. If you’re waiting for S5 to be announced before you fully engage with tjlc on an intellectual level, then there’s nothing I could say. If you are still willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, then the most complete argument for S5 (& tjlc in general really) is to look at BBC Sherlock holistically as having a five-act structure. With some emotional distance, it was much more obvious post-S4, but this analysis goes back to July 2016 if not earlier.
Besides this, the argument that it “seems more likely that the signs pointing to s5 and tjlc were a combination of being led on . . . queerbaiting . . . reading too much into things . . . and coincidence” cannot be simply contested in just this one post. We’ve argued against these things ad nauseum for years. If S5 is announced, this will not make all doubts about tjlc dissipate over night. It will not convince people of tjlc on its own and, frankly, nor should it.
“surely we'd at least have had an announcement for s5 by now if tjlc was real and s5 was really coming?” I do not have a bullet-proof answer to this nor do I pretend to fully understand what their reasons have been for waiting. They could have waited to announce it simply because they are in no personal hurry, because of Martin & Ben’s schedules and/or the pandemic (at least in part.) Regardless, there’s too much we don’t know to definitively say what their reasons are or are not.
The most compelling argument imo for why they have waited this long at all, has always been the inescapable fact that there are multiple Sherlock Holmes stories which remain under copyright until 2023. Even in 2020 Doyle’s estate tried to sue Netlfix because Enola Holmes depicted Holmes as ‘respectful of women,’ as well as too ‘emotional’ and ‘empathetic,’ arguing that he only fits these descriptions in the stories which were under copyright at the time. Their argument is terrible and there are definite holes so thankfully it was dismissed. But if these are the sort of details they would be willing to squabble over then surely an adaptation that dared to depict and "re-interpret" canon to say Holmes is gay would no doubt kick up controversy at the very least and probably lawsuits. As far as I know there wasn’t the same controversy/lawsuit over Watson being secretly in unrequited love with Holmes in The Irregulars, but Holmes' sexuality is another story altogether especially since many would sooner argue he did not have one at all.
Given all of the above, at this point why not wait until 2023 to bring back the show at all? Especially, if they plan to reference the specific stories under copyright. Even if they thought the estate would lose, why risk it or the hassle? Maybe they will announce it this year or 2023, or maybe not. If they don’t, our opinions won’t change any time soon, but nevertheless we cannot argue that they absolutely must have already announced S5 by now for our theory to be right that they plan to make a 5th, let alone tjlc.
yes, all of this. i remember reading five act structure meta pretty early on, if not pre s3 then shortly after. (s3 hiatus was like film school and lit crit school, i wish all those blogs were still here, sigh.)
Yep, that’s basically how I view it too. Of course, there’s no way for us to know what goes on in Mofftiss’ heads. They have demonstrated, time and again, how their own statements about the show are not reliable. And their motives and intentions with the show have never been clear, due to repeated contradictions. But to me their continous silence about BBC Sherlock after S4, as the years pass by, makes very little logical sense. If the show is finished, why not simply say that? And if they do have plans for another series, what would be the harm of admitting that? Unless they have something compromising to hide about it; something that might be detrimental to their work if it started to raise suspicions. And yes; the only thing I can imagine that would fit with this scenario is potential copyright issues connected to ’Johnlock’. But who knows?
exactly. we would not be told what, if any, agreement they have or had with the estate to begin with, what terms or conditions might be in it, or when/if it sunsets. presumably any limitations would sunset with the copyright, in which case it might be best not to indicate anything being written before the copyright expiration, that could lie outside the agreement. as long as they keep busy writing and making non sherlock things, they can't be accused of writing something before the copyright expiration.
Hello! Playing devil's advocate here, but surely we'd at least have had an announcement for s5 by now if tjlc was real and s5 was really coming? Doesn't it maybe seem more likely that the signs pointing to s5 and tjlc were a combination of being led on ("fans will be desperate for s5"), queerbaiting (some of the more obvious (which, tbh, most were) indicators of johnlock), reading too much into things (some of the less obvious indicators) and coincidence (the whole fourth pip thing)? Again, devil's advocate - I personally do think there are a couple too many loose threads for no s5 - but I'd be interested in your answer
Hi there. We’re not sure what kind of answer you’re really looking for and what your knowledge base/experience is with tjlc, so we’ll try to answer in the simplest way possible while covering our bases.
First, if any part of you is asking these questions because it’s coming from a place of insecurity and needing confirmation before allowing yourself to “hope,” then we’re not the people to ask. That is not a healthy way to engage with a TV show theory, nor is it an objective way to engage with it. It’s important to not doubt your ability to cope with being “wrong.” As my therapist once put it, “confident” people don’t have confidence that they will never make a mistake, rather they know they can handle their reaction to mistakes. Mistakes will not shatter their happiness or make them a total failure. It is the fear of doubt and being wrong which will hold you back more than healthy skepticism ever will (This advice may not apply to you, but it does apply to a fair number of people past and present).
That being said…there isn’t one single piece of evidence (or even two or three) I could offer that would sell a potential series 5 without the added context of everything tjlc related. If you’re waiting for S5 to be announced before you fully engage with tjlc on an intellectual level, then there’s nothing I could say. If you are still willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, then the most complete argument for S5 (& tjlc in general really) is to look at BBC Sherlock holistically as having a five-act structure. With some emotional distance, it was much more obvious post-S4, but this analysis goes back to July 2016 if not earlier.
Besides this, the argument that it “seems more likely that the signs pointing to s5 and tjlc were a combination of being led on . . . queerbaiting . . . reading too much into things . . . and coincidence” cannot be simply contested in just this one post. We’ve argued against these things ad nauseum for years. If S5 is announced, this will not make all doubts about tjlc dissipate over night. It will not convince people of tjlc on its own and, frankly, nor should it.
“surely we'd at least have had an announcement for s5 by now if tjlc was real and s5 was really coming?” I do not have a bullet-proof answer to this nor do I pretend to fully understand what their reasons have been for waiting. They could have waited to announce it simply because they are in no personal hurry, because of Martin & Ben’s schedules and/or the pandemic (at least in part.) Regardless, there’s too much we don’t know to definitively say what their reasons are or are not.
The most compelling argument imo for why they have waited this long at all, has always been the inescapable fact that there are multiple Sherlock Holmes stories which remain under copyright until 2023. Even in 2020 Doyle’s estate tried to sue Netlfix because Enola Holmes depicted Holmes as ‘respectful of women,’ as well as too ‘emotional’ and ‘empathetic,’ arguing that he only fits these descriptions in the stories which were under copyright at the time. Their argument is terrible and there are definite holes so thankfully it was dismissed. But if these are the sort of details they would be willing to squabble over then surely an adaptation that dared to depict and "re-interpret" canon to say Holmes is gay would no doubt kick up controversy at the very least and probably lawsuits. As far as I know there wasn’t the same controversy/lawsuit over Watson being secretly in unrequited love with Holmes in The Irregulars, but Holmes' sexuality is another story altogether especially since many would sooner argue he did not have one at all.
Given all of the above, at this point why not wait until 2023 to bring back the show at all? Especially, if they plan to reference the specific stories under copyright. Even if they thought the estate would lose, why risk it or the hassle? Maybe they will announce it this year or 2023, or maybe not. If they don’t, our opinions won’t change any time soon, but nevertheless we cannot argue that they absolutely must have already announced S5 by now for our theory to be right that they plan to make a 5th, let alone tjlc.
yes, all of this. i remember reading five act structure meta pretty early on, if not pre s3 then shortly after. (s3 hiatus was like film school and lit crit school, i wish all those blogs were still here, sigh.)
Dr. Rebekah, what was the defining piece of evidence that convinced you S5 is a possibility after 5 years? Additionally, what convinced you S4 was "fake" after rewatching it?
hkghks I do love being called Dr. Rebekah, thank you.
I'm not convinced of anything, actually. For the first question you'll see in the last part of the retrospective that it's more that I worry for better or worse that more Sherlock is inevitable, that's just how the industry works at this point. I would prefer BBC Sherlock never come out again than we get a series 5 that follows in series 4's footsteps. But since I have no control over that, I have forced myself to accept a worst case version of series 5 as a possibility and regularly make sure I would be okay with my current work in that scenario (and I think I would be).
Likewise, I'm not convinced series 4 is fake. The main thing that makes me think it's possible that it's fake though is that series 4 builds on patterns that have been present on the show since the beginning. The show constantly presents conflicting information, and always follows up a clear statement on one of the central ideas of the show by veering as far as possible in the opposite direction to keep the audience confused. So you get the blatant statements of thematic intent at the end of TAB, then in series 4 you get the most convincing argument yet that those themes were never there to begin with.
The show also has elements of satire from the very beginning. And taking a show that had consistently been about who Sherlock and John were as people and ending your big finale by saying "oh, that doesn't matter! It's all about the legend, the stories, the adventures!" when we know that these writers think everyone reading the Holmes stories that way has been getting it wrong... seems to be the ultimate satire of that reading.
But I am extremely aware that it might not actually be that clever. I'm okay with that, either way I enjoy playing The Game.
i like that you have a phd in bbc sherlock! but yeah, it's an unfinished story with a lot going on, and one can find indications for a variety of possible directions or patterns. none of us is in charge of any bit of what happens next.
are you going to make a video on folding the show in half so we all can be in pain forever 🥺
Hahahhaha no I am not quite that much of a masochist.
But if you like pain, have a think over what the reverse of John waking up in bed, alone and gasping for air, before getting up to write a blog post saying nothing happens to him might be.
hmmm, nice!
[January 1, 2023. 9PM GMT. BBC One.]
A few people are standing at a newsstand, debating a headline: “Famous Net Tec’s PA & Wife Found Shot in Flat.”
The people are confused:
– Didn’t the wife die already?
– Nah, that was just in the film that came out last year. She was still kicking till now far as I know. Didn’t they have that baby?
– Wait, that didn’t really happen?
– What, the whole MI6 assassin thing? Come on, he’s been making stuff up for ages, haven’t you noticed? Nothing’s ever in the papers about the cases, it’s just the blog. Well, and the graphic novels now. And the film.
– I heard the film wasn’t even written by the same guy, he just licensed it. They always sell out, don’t they.
– I heard it wasn’t even licensed, they’re saying he might take them to court–
– He’s taking them to court? He’s lucky Ian Fleming’s estate isn’t taking him to court for all the stuff he cribbed from James Bond, as if no one would notice–
– Fat chance of either happening now, seeing how he’s dead.
One of the crowd leaves to hail a cab. The driver has his collar up, a beanie pulled low over his eyes. The passenger gives their destination and settles in with their phone to read more about the sensational deaths, ignoring the cabbie completely. The camera lingers on the front of the cab, the rear-view mirror.
The cabbie looks up.
The cabbie is John, very much alive.
He pulls away from the curb and drives off with his fare, disappearing into London morning traffic.
Roll opening credits.
Not sure if anyone has transposed this twitter meta over to Tumblr yet, so here is the convo from three days ago, along with today’s s4 prediction:
So from this we can extrapolate a third conversation, 221 words long, ending with the word “John”….
Many, many thanks to @ascandalinthepolicebox for bringing this to our belated attention!!!
He will always end up with the word “John”. Because John means everything.
oh, i remember seeing this before. it feels a bit like the way shakespeare slipped sonnets into the plays at special moments.
Oh TJLC Oracle, will s5 have the johnlock kiss at the end of episode 3 or might it be sooner?? I offer up this eggplant as sacrifice for your answer: 🍆
I’m honestly not sure… on one hand it makes the most sense for it to happen in episode 2, because part of Sherlock’s lesson in 1 will be realizing he thought he’d lost John forever, but John outsmarted everyone else and he doesn’t need protection, he needs to be told the truth, more then just let on in the plan like with Mary’s murder, that’s what Sherlock should have done so many times by now, and if that’s accurate then I don’t know why it would be be delayed for another episode.
It would also make sense for it to happen in 2 because every second episode of every series has always been about raising their relationship to the next step. In TSOT he was John’s best friend, and what’s interesting about TLD is that John doesn’t define their relationship by what they are, like the other episodes based in shared reality (coworker, friend, best friend), he defines their relationship by what it isn’t; romance that would complete him as a human being. John still thinks someone like Irene or Mary would be that, if at all, and not himself. So charting the pacing like that makes sense, and the “complete you” setup has been brought up twice now, so it has to complete a third time, which will be during the reveal. It would also be cool if it happens in 2 and 3 is about them returning to their normal world and mirroring ASIP, but this time they’re together and in love. According to John Yorke, part 2 of act 5 is the final battle.
On the other hand I’m still thinking about something else Yorke said, saying how you don’t give the audience resolution on the main tension until the absolute last possible moment, so it could happen in 3. Sherlock being delayed in telling John also could make sense if there are external circumstances in episode 2 that prevents him somehow. There’s no way to predict everything. And it’s always better to leave audiences wanting more, but I still kind of want villain Mary and Moriarty openly working together in two episodes, not just one. I think the reveal for that will happen in episode 2, and it would also make narrative sense for the love reveal to happen in the same episode, but I’m still torn.
I don’t have any preferences or specific ideas that override the the freedom in how they complete all these steps in the story.
absolutely agree that the "level up" has always been in episode 2. I'm open for it in ep2 or a realization/garridebs/confession moment that doesn't immediately follow with a kiss until ep3, depending on their angle it could work.
I think leaving the 'main tension' for ep 3 could work if its at the beginning or end of 2. the final "problem" (lol) in my opinion is not so much their lack of communication or whatever, but the final defeat of the embodiment of heteronormatively when they are "the two of them against the rest of the world." Since, meta-narratively that is a primary wedge between them, it could work for me as the final tension release and catharsis.
but i say all of this not knowing what they have in store so. my expectations are high but not specific.
yeah, high but not specific! i try to keep in mind that they might not bring specific characters back, or in expected ways. "expect the unexpected", and all that. it's john and sherlock's story that needs resolution, not so much jim or "mary"s.
like, there were people in s3 hiatus who were sure that janine had to come back as jim's sister, but she only appeared briefly in TAB as one of the brides. which given that jim was also a bride, maybe they did tick that box, but only in that very cursory way. plenty of subtext there, but not a big plotty thing.
i too would love the "oh no, all is lost! oh yay all is saved!" part to be episode 2, so there can be a real corker of an episode where they can work together properly in sync, but those guys like to torture us, so they might draw it out to ep 3.
accurate. :D
In TLD John says,
In this interview, Steven Moffat said “She has no precedent in the original” about Molly’s character, that Molly basically did not exist in the original ACD version.
Coincidence, I think not! The word “unprecedented” was specifically chosen and added in the TLD script. If not as a hint to the audience. it seems so forced otherwise.
What do we say about coincidences?
The rattle scene always irks me
The baby is clearly too young to even hold anything properly.
She is clearly not capable of throwing the rattle at Sherlock with so much force (for a baby).
Not to forget the famous blog image used on the show
John was writing this entry (which btw is non-existent on the actual blog, unprecedented? lol) in T6T which is literally a JPG image on his laptop with loads of incorrect stuff when compared to his actual blog. The makers and directors cannot have possible just come up with this or missed this, because they have been using actual webpages for any “laptop-internet” scene throughout the show!
What takes the cake is that John is actually talking about changing diapers and how their lives revolves around the baby in this “blog entry” even before the baby is actually born!! Mary is literally pregnant in the same freaking scene!
In any case, there is a lot of meta out there supporting that Rosie is not real. It would make sense to leave the baby out of the picture since the story is about Sherlock and John, a baby would alter SO much and it just wouldn’t fit the dynamics.
babies in tv shows are not like babies in real life. they are there to serve a narrative function, to paraphrase from TAB. they show who is or isn't good partner material, or they get used as an excuse for who can or can't go on an adventure, if the story needs a way to exclude a character from a scene. @sagestreet has written the excellent "baby switch metaphor". it will not surprise me in the least if s5 is set several years on from s4, showing rosie leaving for school/college, but her home base is 221b with john and sherlock.
