#introvert – @sarahthecoat on Tumblr

Anonymous asked:

At some point, when you have a moment and if you feel like it, I would love to hear your thoughts on Angel Crowley from [Before the] Beginning of S2. :)

mouseonamoose answered:

I don’t know if I have anything too novel to say, but I am happy to type up some of my thoughts!

If we met the Starmaker without already knowing Crowley, I think he would seem kind, exuberant, and clever. But, of course, we meet the Starmaker when we already know who Crowley will be, and so the way he comes across, really, is naïve. Even while we are positioned to contrast the Starmaker with Crowley, we are also given ample opportunity to contrast him with Aziraphale. That’s what I find the most interesting, really: how the Starmaker differs from Aziraphale.

There are two interconnected questions that I am struck with, when I think about how the Starmaker compares to Aziraphale:

Why is the Starmaker so much more naïve than Aziraphale?
Why does the Starmaker fall, when Aziraphale didn’t?

Given the little we know, I believe there are personal, interpersonal, and social factors related to the answers to both questions.

Let’s start with the social factors. We don’t know where exactly the Starmaker is within Heaven’s hierarchy, but he’s at least reasonably high up. We also don’t know where he is, relative to Aziraphale, but it is reasonable to interpret Aziraphale’s introduction (and Starmaker’s lack thereof) as evidence that Aziraphale is lower in the hierarchy than him: he seems to anticipate that Aziraphale already knows who he is, whereas Aziraphale has no similar assumption. This is important, given how social position affects epistemological position.

Within a system of oppression, those who are in a position of privilege are less capable of recognizing and understanding the system surrounding them. This is how privilege functions: it obscures the reality of the oppression that makes it possible. In other words, social privilege implies epistemological disprivilege. The fact that Aziraphale is lower rank indicates that he likely is in a better position to recognize the oppressive elements to the Heavenly hierarchy. The Starmaker, on the other hand, is less capable of picking up on the problems inherent within the system, because he (generally, so far as we know, and up until this point) has benefited from that system. Aziraphale knows to be cautious about presenting criticisms, whereas the Starmaker does not.

Interpersonal factors. We know extremely little about this. If we take seriously Crowley’s comments about “Lucifer and the guys” in S1, then it seems plausible that the Starmaker had a reasonably sized social group. He had friends, perhaps. And we all know what they say: if all your friends decided to get pushed off a cliff, you’re probably going to get pushed off, along with them.

It is very hard to read Aziraphale, on the other hand, as anything but very lonely. There are other angels working on the same projects, and maybe we just don’t see his meaningful connections to others. However, it seems likely to me at least that Aziraphale just didn’t have friends the way that the Starmaker did. This means that, to some extent or another, the Starmaker was better positioned to feel safe, loved, and protected, compared to Aziraphale.

(On a side note, I am also very curious about what sort of relationship, if any, the Starmaker had with Gabriel. Did they know each other? Did they work together? Could they possibly have been like brothers? Crowley knows Michael well enough to know that they're a "wanker"--when did he come to make that judgment?)

Personal factors. The one thing we know about the Starmaker is that he makes stars. He’s an engineer, in other words. Now, there are certain styles of thought and engagement with the world that tend to be common among those who go into engineering. It’s a problem-solving profession: you see a problem, you solve it. Engineering usually also prioritizes simplicity-as-elegance in solutions. The idea of there being a problem that can’t be solved is intolerable. The idea of a problem that is allowed to continue even when a simple solution is available is even more intolerable. Engineers are also susceptible to what is sometimes called “Engineer’s Disease,” or an overextended confidence in the correctness and universality of one’s own perspective. Consider the idea of a suggestion box. The Starmaker would appreciate it, and so he is certain that everyone else would appreciate it as well. He dismisses Aziraphale’s warning because he isn’t used to the idea that what is apparent to him might actually be false.

It also seems pretty clear that the Starmaker really enjoys the work that he does. He’s been working on a project (for how long? With whom?), and he absolutely adores this project. He gets real meaning and joy out of tinkering with the universe in order to bring his star factory into existence. He's happy, and that matters.

Additionally, let’s think about how Aziraphale and the Starmaker (might) process information differently. I think Aziraphale is introverted while the Starmaker is extroverted. I don’t mean in terms of how “energized” they feel about being alone or with others, but instead about how internal or external their thinking and feeling processes are. The Starmaker tends to process things through external faculties. He talks out his thoughts, he gesticulates, and his emotions are immediately apparent in his expression and mood. (Crowley is far less externally apparent with his thoughts and feelings. I take this to be a learned behavior. But still, this snake slithers when he needs to think.) Aziraphale, on the other hand, can keep his thoughts and feelings a lot closer to the chest. It is easier for him to notice something, solve a problem, experience a reaction, form a belief, etc., without showing it to the whole world.

So, let’s put these pieces together.

Why is the Starmaker more naïve than Aziraphale? The Starmaker is in a more privileged position, which means that it is harder for him to identify the oppressive system surrounding him. He additionally has friends and meaningful work that leave him fulfilled and satisfied. He is predisposed to expect those around him to see things the same way he does, and that means that he expects that problems will be solved and questions will be answered.

Why does the Starmaker fall while Aziraphale doesn’t? Recognizing the flaws in the system is not as sudden or dramatic for Aziraphale. He’s in a better position to recognize the flaws in the system. He also, it seems, is far better able to tolerate apparent problems. He doesn’t encounter the world with a clear certainty that solutions can be found and will be accepted. He also can think his thoughts and feel his feelings without making them apparent to others. He doesn’t have friendships the way the Starmaker does, and so he is less likely to be caught up in others’ drama. He has less experience feeling safe and trusted, and so it is easier for him to recognize how he isn't safe and what/who can’t be trusted.

In other words, it’s what we’ve all known all along: the Starmaker fell because he couldn’t imagine it would be dangerous to ask questions. Aziraphale didn’t because he wouldn’t have tried asking them in the first place.

That’s where my thoughts are, right now, at least.

mouseonamoose

The average person has two thoughts a day about Crowley's psychology, whereas Crowleys Georg...

#good omens #good omens meta #starmaker #aziraphale #privilege #oppression #social group #lonely #engineers are problem solvers #self confidence #extrovert #introvert #trust #safety #asking questions

sarahthecoat reblogged

whispsofwind

You know what.

The more I think about it, the less I think Aziraphale is an introvert. At least, not an introvert in the sense that he prefers to keep away from big groups of people all the time, like I occasionally saw him described as. I see this in human AUs especially, where he's sometimes a shut-in snob compared to Crowley's nocturnal social butterfly.

I should preface it by saying that I don't think introvert and extrovert are opposite. They're two extremes on a scale where everyone needs different amounts of human interaction and loneliness to be happy. And it seems to me that Aziraphale is kind of in the middle of this scale.

Looking at his hobbies, the things that make him happy - outside of the books - are all activities that require people around him.

Theatre and concerts and opera are all activities born from common people getting together to enjoy themselves. Going to theatre or listening to opera meant to be surrounded by people. To share the experience.

But ok, one could think Aziraphale enjoyed these activities despite other people.

Except, then there is his "discreet club", with a dance that required a lot of people on the dance floor.

There is his magic act: not only a magic act requires an audience, Aziraphale had signed up for a class.

He had attended a class in the 1870s run by John Maskelyne, and had spent almost a year practicing sleight of hand, palming coins, and taking rabbits out of hats.

In the show we see him go to a Japanese restaurant, and we see that he throughly enjoys every facet of it, knows the chef personally, and is in good terms with the man.

And I can't help but think of Aziraphale, playing a table game all by himself, in a public space, and lightening up like the sun when he recognizes Crowley in the popina.

Even the fact that some of his books are signed "to my dear friend Aziraphale", or something along the same lines, suggests that Aziraphale sought some writers out, perhaps went to literary circles at some point.

What I'm getting at here is that I suspect Aziraphale craves the connection and the companionship. He was denied that connection from his fellow angels, he doesn't fit in there, so he looks for it elsewhere. With humans... and with Crowley.

And then, sometimes, he needs to be alone for a while. To relax in his own private space, sometimes with Crowley (the only person who is even allowed in Aziraphale's private space), and sometimes completely alone. Which is something Crowley understands.

“Not much more,” said Aziraphale, who had never done other to get rid of demons than to hint to them very strongly that he, Aziraphale, had some work to be getting on with, and wasn’t it getting late?

And Crowley had always got the hint.

So what I'm trying to say is, I feel like Aziraphale really loves spending time in good company, and most of his hobbies are enjoyable precisely because they're shared. Obviously Crowley is the best company, but Aziraphale seems to really like spending time with humans as well.

And then, when he's tired, he recharges his batteries in private with the company of his beloved books and perhaps a good cup of tea or hot chocolate.

What do you guys think? Am I completely missing the mark here?

nicnacsnonsense

Ooooo, okay, I had a whole long conversation about this with @poetic----nonsense a few months back. The crux of it was I think the introvert/extrovert dichotomy actually takes a few different axises and tries to smush them all together. As such Aziraphale and Crowley are both introverted and extroverted, depending on which spectrum you’re looking at.

The first is social skills. On a basic level this is how good are you at communicating with other people — understanding what they’re telling you and making yourself understood to them. And at higher levels you get into how good are you at picking up on things that are implied or things that the other person is avoiding saying, as well as how good are you at predicting how another person is going to behave in response to different things. This isn’t a direct measure of introvert/extrovert, but the more socially skilled you are, the more likely people are going to have a positive response to you, which does affect how much time you want to spend around people. I would place Aziraphale as medium on this scale — good at all the basic skills, can struggle with the subtler aspects — and Crowley as very high.

Next is social necessity. Everyone needs at least some interaction with other people, the question is how much you need to feel happy and mentally healthy. I would probably place Aziraphale and Crowley both as relatively low on this scale.

Social energy is the flip side of the previous. Everyone needs at least some time to themselves to recharge, so here the question is how much social interaction can you do before you need to take a break? And honestly this one could probably be broken down as well, considering things like how different types of social interaction can hit differently — how many people, how well do you know them, is it a structured interaction or free form, etc. — and the specifics of recharging being different — how long do you need, do you need complete isolation or just for no one to interact with you directly, etc. I would rate Aziraphale as having medium low social energy and Crowley as having relatively high.

Finally is social enjoyment. How much do you just like interacting with other people. This is important to keep distinct from the previous two because those are about the minimum you need and the maximum you have energy for. But you don’t have to need something to enjoy it, and just because you have the energy for something that doesn’t mean you want to do it (and vice versa on both). This is where I would rate Aziraphale as being fairly high. As you pointed out, he enjoys attending his discrete gentleman’s club and dancing the gavotte, he likes getting to know the chef and owners and serving staff at his favorite restaurants, he likes putting on his magic shows. And further he forms close friendships at times too, Crowley being the obvious example, but also the authors signing their books to their dear friend Aziraphale. Meanwhile I think Crowley is relatively low on this scale. It’s interesting to note that his approach to tempting in addition to being efficient, also minimizes the amount of time he has to spend with other people. Then there’s his tendency to call people things like “army human” and “book girl” rather than by their names. Of course he enjoys Aziraphale’s company a lot and was friends with Leonardo fi Vinci, but he seems more like he has his few close friends that he enjoys spending time with, and isn’t really interested in hanging out with anyone else.

So to sum up, this gives us Aziraphale who can be introverted in that he only has so much energy for social interaction at a time and if need be — eg if people are closing him out because they think he’s weird or rude because of his mid-grade social skills — he can withdraw from social interaction nearly completely and still be okay. However he’s extroverted in that when he has the energy and opportunity he will frequently choose to do social things because they make him happy. Meanwhile Crowley is extroverted in that he has a lot of energy for a lot of social interaction and can be very good at navigating social situations. But he’s introverted because unless there is some other compelling reason for it, he would choose to avoid any social interaction beyond spending time with one of his few close friends.

whispsofwind

Oh this is exactly the kind of breakdown I was hoping for, thank you

I think you are absolutely right

ineffable-endearments

This is lovely and rings so true! Also, there’s probably a bit of a balance thing going on.

For his job, Aziraphale is tasked with minding the “greater good” and likely feels pretty pressured to do so. His life revolves around following other people’s rules. You know...the collectivism of Heaven. I think he sort of craves time to himself, and has come to treasure that time greatly, because he wouldn’t get it in any other way. He’s not, theoretically, even allowed to have a sense of “self” even though he absolutely craves it. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t genuinely enjoy people. Just means he’s got balancing to do.

Meanwhile, Crowley’s job has always been pretty much Look Out for Number One. He likes causing trouble but he obviously isn’t much of a torture aficionado, because he likes humans too, so he’s stuck obeying orders he often isn’t necessarily wild about just to stay alive. And with Hell, if you don’t put your own survival/comfort first at all times, you’re toast. So Crowley wouldn’t really be allowed to connect meaningfully with anyone other than demons, who can’t understand him. At least spiritually, he’s got an excess of solitude. So he wants more time with connections to balance it out. This doesn’t make him an extrovert. Again, it’s just seeking balance.

The thing about “our side” is...Aziraphale will connect meaningfully with Crowley without forcing him, and Crowley will respect Aziraphale’s need for personal time without forcing him to hide.

#good omens #ineffable husbands #good omens meta #introvert #extrovert #social skills #communication #social needs #social energy #social enjoyment #recharge #understanding #our own side

sarahthecoat reblogged

forineffablereasons

Anonymous asked:

Do you think Crowley is an introvert?

forineffablereasons answered:

this is a bit of a question, isn’t it? my gut reaction was like, oh, sure, but i guess i don’t think that’s true now that i’ve thought about it. i think crowley goes to be alone to lick his wounds rather than to recharge or to get some kind of comfort out of it, and he seems to be the one that does more of the seeking out of aziraphale. i also think, judging by the book canon really, that he probably spends more time out among humanity than aziraphale does - he’s up to date on tech, on “what’s cool,” at least to some extent, he watches modern telly, listens to modern music, wears his hair modern, wears modern clothes, etc etc. he also understands more about humanity works - that he can ruin one aspect of many people’s days by, for example, taking down the phone networks, and that that in turn will ruin many people’s days. the book also references the fact that while he has the mayfair flat, he only “lives” there in the sense that he occasionally returns there to store his possessions and occasionally to wait for the next thing to do. so imo crowley is the extrovert - he likes to go out and be in the crowds, he likes to get to know humans, he likes to spend time with aziraphale, etc. retreating into an isolated space isn’t a comfort for him; it’s a lonely, sad thing that he does.

aziraphale, on the other hand, is probably the introvert. he does have that isolated space he retreats to; he wants to be left alone to read his books and do bookish things. he hangs with crowley but also hints when he wants crowley to leave him alone, and crowley does. he’s also shown to have close personal friends with humans - mother shipton signs to mine olde friend aziraphale, there’s implications about both shakespeare and wilde, he talks to the sushi chef in his first scene of the show as a friend, he has a long-term barber apparently - but he doesn’t connect to humanity as a whole, even if he does like it.

so. soft extrovert with alienating eyes doomed to tempt humanity to their worst sides meets soft introvert with calming, fundamentally attractive traits doomed to bring out the best of absolute strangers: thank god this is a comedy because as a tragedy i would be drowning in tears at all times

#good omens #ineffable husbands #darcy answers #good omens meta #aziraphale & crowley #introvert #extrovert