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Come on Vox Machina, go free your boy!

To me, this last episode, particularly Ashton's talk with the titan, highlights where the nuance is failing.

Matt is attempting to show every possible possible outcome as equally viable, without giving it any downsides.

We don't get an exploration of the pro-god perspective because then we'd feel the consequences of the gods being eaten by Predathos

We don't see how the gods harm mortals because then saving the gods keeps us in that eternal cycle.

There are other forces keeping sealed evils at bay, and other sources of divine magic, so we don't need to rely on the gods here

Maybe the world hasn't had enough chaos, and getting rid of the gods would be good. But maybe there was too much chaos before the gods came.

And all of this really feels like when people say "question the man", but don't follow through on it. The questioning is little more than attitude and defiance because "the man", "the authority", "the throne," exists. This is Ashton.

This being in contrast to chesterton's fence (which I briefly mentioned in a previous post on this topic). It's the concept that before in a previous post, but to go more in depth, Chesterton's fence says you should understand why a law, tradition, or structure is in place before removing it. And this is Imagen's perspective.

Overall, the only feedback we're getting is "here's the benefits of this course of action", woth none of the downsides presented. And that's why Bells Hells has been so indecisive. Imogen and Orym can talk all they want about the good things the gods do, but it's abstract and not present for Ashton and Dorian. Ashton and Dorian can talk about how the gods hurt people, but Imogen and Orym don't have the proof that it outweighs the good they do.

We need to see trade offs here

These are the kinds of options we need, that are viable not because they're all net positives, but because we have to weigh the positives and the negatives. Rather than "do what you want, the world will keep spinning"

Bells Hells are desperately searching for answers of what effects their actions will have, and Matt keeps giving them an "I dunno"

re the first three tlovm s3 episode title teaser fr. vex getting [redacted] while standing in front of percy . i will undoubtedly have Thoughts about plot n adaption once the whole season is out but i will say people acting like vex potentially dying again is a betrayal of the arc is . i say this politely. ridiculous. vex’s most common habit aside from haggling and flirting in campaign 1 was being knocked unconscious. she required full ass resurrection spells on four separate occasions. we currently have no idea what the shape of any arc in season 3 will look like beyond broad strokes and teasing shots. if they end up wanting to incorporate the exandrian magic lore of it’s harder to come back each time you die, vex seems like the obvious opportunity to do so. please at the very least save the panic posting for when you actually have something to panic about .

The thing I'd expect them to touch on is how Vax's deal with the Matron works. In the original campaign, he seems to expect it to mean that Vex gets to reach the end of her natural lifespan rather than it being a one-time thing (see: "I thought we had come to an arrangement" in 103 and "I'm about to go ham. We had a deal" in Dalen's Closet) and the Matron doesn't actually disagree with him on that point, she just considers their bargain intact as long as Vex is successfully brought back. So I've been wondering if the series could depict this as a moment where Vex goes down only for the Matron to shove her soul back into her body in a burst of black feathers because, well, they DID have a deal.

I think a huge problem I’m seeing in some attempts at meta with C3 is that there is a subset of viewers who do not understand the place, value, and meaning of real world religion. It breeds takes like “well throw the gods out! Who needs them! They caused characters and the world pain! Free Vax from the Raven Queen!”

I throw that last one in there because it is the most ridiculous yet frequent and is really the crux of the issue. Vax’s story is very much about faith and the importance of faith and devotion. If you place no value on that you’ll end up grossly misunderstanding the character and the nature of his tragedy.

I’m going to out myself as an atheist, but I think the issue with a lot of these takes are that they come from internet atheists who are either resentful of and hostile toward religion because of personal experiences or do not know any devout people in their lives who they respect and can empathize with. And while I am not trying to downplay the very real phenomenon of religious trauma, when healing from it it is crucial to realize that all spiritual traditions are not synonymous with the one that harmed you. I would really implore more people to explore why many good people find spiritual traditions and religion to be a source of solace, community, and meaning before writing off the idea wholesale as something only functioning as a means of power and control that people can be educated out of believing. I encourage you to branch out and here are some examples of things I’ve done to challenge my own judgement over the last ten years: read the writings of gay Catholics exploring the queerness of Jesus. Read some beautiful poetry written by a trans man who specializes in Anglican theology. Explore religious observances different from the ones you experienced and attend a Seder. Go if a coworker invites you to a celebration of Ganesh. Learn the significance of solstice celebrations because your coworker is officiating one for a Wiccan event. Break fast at sundown during Ramadan with in solidarity with your roommate.

Deciding that all fictional religion must be an allegory for a specific kind of toxic nationalistic prosperity gospel Christian cult found in America will only limit how you engage with both fiction and the real world. It took me a long time to get to this place about it and I hope I’ve put the spark of curiosity and not judgment into at least one person reading this.

I had sort of hoped Keyleth would have matured and grown past her anger at the Matron over the past 33 years but I suppose it's in character that she hasn't fully dealt with her grief yet. And the Vorb probably isn't helping her issues either. It just sucks because I think a lot of the fandom take Vox Machina's grief fueled blame and fully accept it as fact when the reality is that Vax's situation is almost entirely his own responsibility. The only other person with any remote culpability is Percy. And even Percy is only really to blame for accidentally Killing Vex, not for Vax's choices. But even if you want to hold Percy accountable for Vax's choice in the tomb as well, that still doesn't make him responsible for Vax's death. Vax could have lived a long full life as the Matron's Champion, as shown by the Delightful Purvan Suul and his companion Galdric.

Vax was a borderline suicidal, self-sacrificing character from day one. He always threw himself into danger headfirst regardless of the cost to himself. Between Percy accidentally setting off the trap creating the circumstances for Vax trading himself to the matron during Vex's resurrection, all the way up to Vax CHOSING to come back as a revenant after being disintegrated in order to help defeat Vecna, the choices have always been his. Especially him, fate touched as he is. Ultimately, Vecna killed Vax and Vax killed Vax. I think it's easier to blame the Matron than to be angry with Vax for being who he was.

The Matron maintains the balance of life and death. She accepted Vax's offers both times, do you think she should have refused? The first refusal would have meant Vex's death, and the second refusal would have meant Vax possibly just staying dead after being disintegrated, and not being there to fight against Vecna, which was truly an all hands on deck situation. There was no time to fuck around with a resurrection ritual that might not even work, the whole world was in danger. One life, a life that was already lost, is a small price to pay to save the world. I'm pretty sure Vax would agree with me!

Frankly, Vox Machina were super lucky and privileged to have so many successful resurrections between them. I think they got a little spoilt and entitled about it honestly. Most people have never even met someone who's been resurrected before, they did it like 20 times! Vax was disintegrated, he chose to come back as a revenant to fight Vecna, protect the world, and help his family. An opportunity he was only given due to his allegiance to the Matron. She gave Vox Machina and Vax extra time together and a chance to help save the world.

For those of you shouting "what about true resurrection!?! I hear you, and Matt said it's complicated and didn't elaborate lol. Personally, I think the Matron has quite the special a barrier of entry to true resurrection, if the spell even works at all in Exandria. I think they touched on it briefly in Calamity but I've forgotten. I can only imagine what insane ritual Matt concocted years ago that he's had plenty of time to work on since. Part of the Matron's whole thing is that everyone must eventually go into death, sure they can avoid it for a while, so some resurrection is fine (the DC gets higher every time), but eventually enough is enough and it's time to go. Hence why necromancers and liches are her enemies.

At any rate, I'm really proud of Keyleth for going to therapy and I hope she goes back when all of this moon business is over because she still needs it and that turtle lady in the frog seemed great lol.

Adding on, personally, I was hoping that the current situation would nudge Keyleth towards realizing that being virulently anti-Raven Queen is not and never has been being pro-Vax. The in-universe god haters were the ones who turned Vax into a screaming orb, he would have been fervently opposed to them even before this over the whole 'wanting to kill his mistress' thing, and I'm pretty sure that with his connection to her now woven into the very fabric of his being, he is NOT going to just be okay if she either dies or is forced to flee Exandria. Even if thirty years of anger aren't going to go away overnight, is it still too much for Keyleth to look at the Matron and go, "Hey, he's your champion and therefore your responsibility, so what kind of help can we expect when we go to de-orb him?"

"building a new exandria free of the gods can only be done atop a pile of corpses"

so I guess fuck all the people that get chewed up and spit out by the gods & their followers now, huh?

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the cost of change may be too high, but that argument seems to suggest that the status quo is perfectly fine & I'm sure it is if you're not one of the people crushed under its heel.

just to name a few, Vax, Kashaw, Opal, Yasha & everyone she killed while under Obann's influence, Fjord, Avantika, everyone killed by Uk'otoa, the entirety of Ruidus, the mindflayer colony & duergar from the first arc of CR1 and everyone they killed, everyone currently suffering because of Desirat, I could undoubtedly keep going.

so yeah, if you think all those people are acceptable sacrifices to maintain the status quo then you're right, there's no point entertaining the possibility of a better world

Thing is, every single one of the examples you bring up would be either not solved or actively made worse by letting Predathos eat the gods or chase them away:

I am genuinely so tired of wasting my breath holding an opinion that's been supported by the narrative multiple times, suggesting that we should consider improving the world, only to have people take my arguments in bad faith and bend over backwards to justify why attempting to improve the world is bad, actually.

"Things is, every single one of the examples you bring up would be either not solved or actively made worse by letting Predathos eat the gods or chase them away." You either misread my post or chose to change the subject unprompted, in which case I suggest you make your own post.

I'm not making any claims about how to solve the problems I brought up. I am in fact, actively recognizing that releasing Predathos may be the wrong choice.

The point of this post is recognizing the harm caused by the gods in the past and present, and point out the logical flaw in the argument that any change will be built on top of corpses. The present is already built on top of corpses. People have died and will continue to die if the status quo is maintained. It's not a neutral choice. Just because the deaths caused by the gods' actions are considered "normal" doesn't make those losses any more acceptable than the potential cost of change. Pretending the present is bloodless is ignorant and disrespectful to all the people that have been hurt by the gods.

I'm not going to argue every single point with you when you're just going to invent reasons to support your position. I never claimed that removing the gods would "fix" any of the things I listed. My point was that if the gods kept their hands off Exandria, then all the people I listed would not have been hurt in the first place. The people I listed are just a handful of the casualties caused by the gods TODAY, and people like them will continue to suffer and die if nothing is changed. That might be the best option, I made no claims otherwise, but the absolute least we can do is acknowledge their suffering.

So in what way do you think their suffering should be acknowledged that it hasn't already been acknowledged by the people who took up divinely-empowered arms against those forces and sought to help their victims? Do you want the gods to personally apologize to every single mortal who has ever been hurt in any way that could be attributed to them, even through the most tenuous of logic? Do you want their followers to schedule a daily Two Minutes Guilt over the crimes of their divine patrons? What is the broad-spectrum naming and blaming and shaming you want to see supposed to actually accomplish in terms of tangible, material aid to those you see as victims of the gods?

Yeah exactly, I want Pelor, the Wildmother, the Raven Queen, Asmodeus, and all of the fictional gods of the fictional world of Exandria to apologize personally to me. /s

You're moving the goalposts. First your issue was that getting rid of the gods wouldn't fix any of the problems I brought up. And when I pointed out that I never said as such, now your problem is that recognizing & holding the gods accountable for their actions is unrealistic.

Why do you think it's okay to talk to another person the way you're talking to me right now? Unlike the characters of Exandria, I am real and I don't appreciate being mocked and ridiculed for having an opinion and posting it on my blog. Why do you care more about defending fictional gods than respecting the opinions and feelings of the human being on the other side of your screen?

You are not going to convince me that you're right and clearly, you think my opinion is laughable, so there's nothing to be gained from yelling at me. If you think my opinion is so ridiculous and absurd, the block button is right there. I didn't force you to comment on my post.

Not that you actually asked your question in good faith or care for my answer but I already said what I want. Multiple times. It's the first line of the OP.

"building a new exandria free of the gods can only be done atop a pile of corpses" I want people to stop making this argument, both in and out of game because it relies on the assumption that people aren't currently dying because of the gods, which is false.

So what it ultimately comes down to is wanting everyone, in-universe and out, to agree with you that two wrongs make a right? Uk'otoa exists, therefore Orym isn't allowed to be upset about Will and Derrig? People are already dying because of the gods, therefore anyone who opposes them is entitled to hurt as many people as they want? Yes, there are times when it's necessary to cause some harm now to prevent greater harm later, but there still needs to be an effort to distinguish genuine cases of necessary evil from people using the concept of necessary evil as an excuse to indulge their own worst impulses, and the desire for people to stop talking about the harm caused by in-universe god-haters is a desire to shut down that discussion instead of engaging with it.

My point is that if you actually want the gods to be "held accountable", you first need to define what that even means in practical terms, instead of lumping together the wildly disparate actions of multiple wildly disparate entities together under the single nebulous header of "harm caused by the gods/the status quo" and demanding "recognition" of that harm without defining what that means either. Quite frankly, the "recognition" you want sounds like exactly what Campaign 3 already has in abundance: endless, endless griping about how much the gods suck that doesn't actually change the characters' decisions because the alternatives presented suck even more, but which we're still forced to sit through because no one introduced Ashton to the saying "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

"building a new exandria free of the gods can only be done atop a pile of corpses"

so I guess fuck all the people that get chewed up and spit out by the gods & their followers now, huh?

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the cost of change may be too high, but that argument seems to suggest that the status quo is perfectly fine & I'm sure it is if you're not one of the people crushed under its heel.

just to name a few, Vax, Kashaw, Opal, Yasha & everyone she killed while under Obann's influence, Fjord, Avantika, everyone killed by Uk'otoa, the entirety of Ruidus, the mindflayer colony & duergar from the first arc of CR1 and everyone they killed, everyone currently suffering because of Desirat, I could undoubtedly keep going.

so yeah, if you think all those people are acceptable sacrifices to maintain the status quo then you're right, there's no point entertaining the possibility of a better world

Thing is, every single one of the examples you bring up would be either not solved or actively made worse by letting Predathos eat the gods or chase them away:

I am genuinely so tired of wasting my breath holding an opinion that's been supported by the narrative multiple times, suggesting that we should consider improving the world, only to have people take my arguments in bad faith and bend over backwards to justify why attempting to improve the world is bad, actually.

"Things is, every single one of the examples you bring up would be either not solved or actively made worse by letting Predathos eat the gods or chase them away." You either misread my post or chose to change the subject unprompted, in which case I suggest you make your own post.

I'm not making any claims about how to solve the problems I brought up. I am in fact, actively recognizing that releasing Predathos may be the wrong choice.

The point of this post is recognizing the harm caused by the gods in the past and present, and point out the logical flaw in the argument that any change will be built on top of corpses. The present is already built on top of corpses. People have died and will continue to die if the status quo is maintained. It's not a neutral choice. Just because the deaths caused by the gods' actions are considered "normal" doesn't make those losses any more acceptable than the potential cost of change. Pretending the present is bloodless is ignorant and disrespectful to all the people that have been hurt by the gods.

I'm not going to argue every single point with you when you're just going to invent reasons to support your position. I never claimed that removing the gods would "fix" any of the things I listed. My point was that if the gods kept their hands off Exandria, then all the people I listed would not have been hurt in the first place. The people I listed are just a handful of the casualties caused by the gods TODAY, and people like them will continue to suffer and die if nothing is changed. That might be the best option, I made no claims otherwise, but the absolute least we can do is acknowledge their suffering.

So in what way do you think their suffering should be acknowledged that it hasn't already been acknowledged by the people who took up divinely-empowered arms against those forces and sought to help their victims? Do you want the gods to personally apologize to every single mortal who has ever been hurt in any way that could be attributed to them, even through the most tenuous of logic? Do you want their followers to schedule a daily Two Minutes Guilt over the crimes of their divine patrons? What is the broad-spectrum naming and blaming and shaming you want to see supposed to actually accomplish in terms of tangible, material aid to those you see as victims of the gods?