what would you have me do?

"redemption arcs are toxic, you shouldn't try to fix someone!"

actually it is so important to me that being in community and experiencing human connection can save people. thanks

No one is beyond redemption so long as they're alive hope this helps

i wish more writers + fandom analysists understood that a character can totally work through their guilt and own up to their mistakes without there having to be some justification for what they did. like sometimes you just genuinely fuck up with no excuse, and the best you can do then is acknowledge it, apologize to those you hurt, and just move on with your life while trying to prevent the same mistake from happening again

it doesn’t always have to be like “you couldn’t help it” or “i understand where you were coming from”, it doesn’t always have to be acceptable!! they don’t always have to be forgiven!! because making a mistake like that doesn’t mean there’s no hope for them in the future, especially if they feel bad about it. just!! let characters use their own mistakes as motivation to better themselves without relying on forgiveness!

actually you know what this applies to real people too y’all could use that reminder

characters that go from villain to weird family member give me strength

characters that go

from villain to weird family

member give me strength

Beep boop! I look for accidental haiku posts. Sometimes I mess up.

Good bot.

Some of y’all really be like “I love redemption arcs but only if they’re not a bad person.“

Some rando: This character should not have the chance to become a better person

Me: Why

Same person: Because they are a bad person!

Me: But what if that character was allowed to become a better person so that they are no longer a bad person?

Same person: You’re an abuse apologist

I would love for every bad person to become a good person. I’d think most humans think that it’d be a cool and great thing if all bad people became good. 

A cool and great thing, which we can play pretend with in fiction, knowing it’s not realistic, just to feel a little better about the shitty real world we live in.

tbh, I think the problem is that people confuse “getting a redemption arc” with “being rewarded with what comes after a redemption arc”

like, redeemed villains are generally friends with the heroes. they get to experience love and The Power of Friendship for the first time, if they haven’t already. they generally get to experience forgiveness. if their motives are based off of some kind of trauma or pain (like a lot of redeemed villains) then they will probably have that resolved and get some sense of closure or inner peace from whatever is hurting them.

so when they say that “this character doesn’t deserve a redemption arc” what they mean is “this character doesn’t deserve to be loved. they don’t deserve happiness, peace, or companionship”. the alternatives I have seen are:

“I hope that this character realizes how awful they are and they kill themselves”

“I hope this character is redeemed by a heroic sacrifice” (meaning they would be redeemed but wouldn’t be alive to experience the “reward” afterwards)

“I hope this character begs and pleads for forgiveness over and over again, but is never forgiven”

it’s pretty disturbing tbh, to treat basic things that every human needs (like being loved) as a “reward” that you get for good behavior. or more accurately: never being bad in the first place. that once you fall from grace you’re damned for eternity.

I think this post exposes a really gross underbelly to purity culture bullshit that I don’t think I examined quite this way before.

If redemption is unacceptable, if bad behavior can never be forgiven, what is the alternative?

Because it sure seems like the alternative is “Indefinate suffering = justice.”

some random redemption arcs that aren’t just ‘zuko, but a little to the left’

We have to stop pushing the idea that a character having a sympathetic backstory means they deserve a redemption arc or that they're going to get a redemption arc

The day people start seeing redemption as an ongoing series of choices that someone decides to make because they want to be better rather than an abstract concept that someone is rewarded with because they're inherently ““deserving”” of it is the day I will know peace.

Because explanation =/= justification. They also have to acknowledge they were wrong and try to make amends.

Maybe consider if you're saying ‘redemption’ when what you really mean is ‘forgiveness.’

Trauma isn't a competition and pain is not an effective way to improve someone's moral character.

i feel like so many people misunderstand redemption arcs. they’re not about forgiving past actions. they’re not about softening previous behavior. redemption arcs are about realizing past behavior was heinous and resolving to be better, do better. that’s why so many redemption arcs fall apart upon close scrutiny.

redemption arcs do not rely on forgiveness! if a character is behaving a certain way just to be forgiven, that is not a good redemption arc! redemption arcs rely on people realizing their own behavior was bad and that they need to own up to the consequences. and those consequences can often include a lack of forgiveness!

A redemption arc is about reliability. Not for the other characters, but for us. The audience. We need to be convinced that a character will do better in the future. That they won’t repeat their past behaviour. That they’ve changed for the better. We need to be shown undeniable evidence supporting that.

Forgiveness is something else entirely. Forgiveness is personal and not always rational. You can forgive someone who doesn’t deserve it. But it’s also possible for someone to have undeniably changed for the better, while remaining unforgivable. You don’t have to forgive those who have hurt you. Even if they’ve redeemed themselves.

Atonement is also not redemption. A character who suffers, be it self-induced, or through punishment, or simply through coincidence, is not automatically redeemed. Even if they feel crushing guilt for their actions, even if they cry their eyes out, this is not redemption. Not until they resolve to do better. Not until they convince us that they will do better. Suffering is not redemption. It is, at most, a plea for sympathy.

A lot of so-called redemption arcs fall in the latter two categories.

Can I just say: That last comment goes for Real Life People as well as stories.

I have actually been giving it a lot of thought and i have come up with a scenario.

Imagine a character when they are first introduced. In this scenario, they must show their worst traits and what makes them bad or villainous. Maybe a line in which they depict their views or an action they do with pleasure.

Then imagine a similar scenario after their redemption. The character must act in a completely different way, almost the opposite as to when they were first introduced.

Here is the tricky part: There is no comment about it. there is nothing that tells this character “you must do this”. It’s just the character, out of their own initiative, behaving in a way that is the exact opposite in both scenarios. But that it is perfectly In-Character for them to do. THAT is a redeemed character.

It’s not them acting that way because they seek redemtpion or forgiveness. it is them doing what comes natural for them to do, which should be the right thing to do.

And can we stop saying that ‘they change only because of XYZ’, because that’s how it works? Good morals aren’t your fucking splieen, you’re not born with it not is it Maybelline, it’s something thought and sure, you can realize something going around it WrongTM, but it’s not the norm?

Cause I’m really tired of it. Sure, it’s much easier to redeem character who starts with good moral and is just Misunderstood, but when someone changed because of outside influence it’s just as good!

[Like, the single thing I cringe at Avatat since it came to Netflix is that people look at Zuko and think that’s the only good way to make redemption. When Zuko has good morals from the starts and even on the bad side wants to save paople. Like sure, it was great arc! Amazing writing! Can we not herald it as the One True Redemption? Thanks.]

Zuko... calm down... let me tell you the story of the old man who turned himself into a pickle. It was the funniest shit i have ever seen...

STOP TELLING ME ABOUT PICKLE RICK UNCLE!!!! IM TRYING TO CAPTURE THE AVATAR!!!

I finally saw the episode, uncle. I am so, so sorry I doubted you. That was the funniest shit I've ever...

Redemption arc at its finest

My favorite form of redemption arc is “I hate that I have morals now”

Like “I realized that I was in the wrong and now I will work hard to atone” is good and all, but “how dare you infect me with morals” will always be so much more entertaining

That moment the former baddie starts to walk away from some bad situation, almost gets out, and then just stops, curses, and turns around to go help?

*chef’s kiss* delicious

This one gets it

And like when they say “I’m only helping you because of [selfish reason that’s not truly the reason]”

“I assure you, my motives are completely selfish” they yell at the group as they fling themself between a giant fuck off monster and an unconscious guy they don’t even like

“Only I get to kill you! That’s it! That’s the only reason! I’m healing you and tending to your wounds because I HATE YOU!” 

People nowadays are so obsessed with redemption arcs like. Give me a good corruption arc. Watch me go wild over my favourite characters going mad and committing atrocious acts against the very nature of humanity