Religion is a Mental Illness

People who love you don’t want to set you on fire for eternity.

Even a parent or guardian who punishes you wants you to learn, so you can grow and do better next time. How does eternal torture allow people who are dead to learn from their mistakes?

I'm so sorry. That's not an accurate portrayal of what hell is. Hell, to a Bible-believing Christian, is for unbelievers only. If you're saved you do still make mistakes! If you're saved you still sin! Jesus RESCUES you. You can't lose your salvation. And children are exempt from the whole system anyway until the age of accountability!!!

What you heard is neither accurate nor Christian nor something parents should be telling their kids.

But 5 billion people in the world should hear it, right? Don't scare the children of Xians, but tell the children of atheists that they'll be burned for eternity because their parents are heathens. Because Xianity is about Love™.

This whole thing demonstrates several of the most vile things about Xianity.

Regardless of whether it's in the bible or not, Xian parents do tell their kids this, because it is a persistent, recurring theme among the thousands of ex-Xians apostates who abandon Xianity every day, and a contributing factor towards Religious Trauma Syndrome. Making a claim about the "accurate portrayal" of an imaginary place that is a fictional boogeymonster created for the explicit purpose of controlling people is several layers of bizarre. It's not even as coherent as pretending to know how Narnia or Middle Earth function, since you can't know until you're dead. We hear that all the time: just wait until you're dead, then you'll find out. What you're trying to pull is something that not only you do not know, but you cannot know.

You don't get to No True Scotsman away the terror Xianity and Xian preachers and parents have deliberately instilled in children as a moral imperative, in the god they are compelled to "love" and "fear" simultaneously. This is the same as when Xians try to suggest that non-believers left only because they'd been abused or mistreated, that there's no logical, reasonable reason to leave, only emotional, irrational contrariness. That is, it's not the fault of the doctrine or the teachings, you just got unlucky and got the "bad" Xians.

What blaming the parents rather than the religion accidentally admits is that Xians can get it wrong and never know it, while believing themselves to be the true faithful.

It literally doesn't even matter whether it has scriptural support, although we will get to that in a moment.

When has that ever stopped the believers? Especially when they don't even read their own scripture. "God helps those who help themselves," "god works in mysterious ways," "love the sinner, hate the sin," and "god will never give you more than you can handle" are well-worn old Xian tropes, and yet none of them are in the bible either, are they? If Xians were limited to what is actually in the bible, they'd still own slaves and stone people to death. Every single apologetic to excuse the bible god for genocide, slavery and all its other atrocities - such as that "fear" means "respect" - aren't accurate either, but y'all rely on that to perpetuate your belief in an evil, malevolent imaginary sky villain.

You don't get to say other people's elaborations are bogus when Xianity itself is propped up entirely by the same kind of thing. Such as this:

It's super weird that "god" would be bounded by human conceptions of maturation; whether that's Jewish notions at 13, or secular notions at 16, 18, 21, 25 or... other, depending on the locality. Especially since there is literally nothing in the bible to support this.

Psalm 51:5

Romans 5:12

If your god did exempt children, then it is entirely the same god's choice that adults be condemned. Particularly considering time is continuous; a child at 13 is only one second older than she was at the last second of being 12. One millisecond. One nanosecond. Or, can she stay exempt by not doing her bat mitzvah or confirmation? What do Xians do? What's the metaphysical difference between a 12 year old and a 13 year old?

If a child is an orphan and the orphanage loses track of the child's age, how do they tell whether she’s "accountable"? What about a child with an intellectual development disorder? Is it really more moral for a child who gets hit by a bus and dies 3 minutes after reaching this "accountability" age to be sent to hell? What's the grace period? And doesn’t this mean that god doesn’t have a plan? Or is it that god’s plan is for her to burn in hell for eternity because she was run down on her birthday?

And how can you even pretend to answer these questions?

That you're proud of sending children to hell who are just old enough is deranged. Why should any child be sent to hell? This is an idiotic assertion. It doesn't stand up for a second.

And again, you can't possibly know any of this. I don't doubt you can manufacture more fandom fiction to fill the gaps. But that's not what I mean. You can't know it. What you're doing is self-soothing, giving yourself a little endorphin buzz for protecting your belief from intrustion by reality.

If he can suspend it, then he can suspend it. If exemptions can be made, then exemptions can be made. The whole thing need not be as barbarous or grossly immoral as it is. The system isn't necessary. The vile wickedness of this system is therefore a choice of your god, who is singularly and wholly responsible for it, as it can only occur if he wants people to go to hell. So, you're not really making the case here that you think you are.

Let's continue with the scripture, shall we?

Hebrews 10:26-27

If you do normal, human things, such as lust, envy or pride, just participating in Halloween, or questioning or doubting the silly tales that don't make sense, then fiery damnation awaits you. Because an imaginary devil - not quite as bad as the Lord character, though - lurks behind every corner hoping to tempt and trick children from the path of righteousness at any moment. Children should be terrified that someone is out to get them. “Not today, Satan.”

Matthew 14:31

James 1:5-8

Children should be terrified of their humanity, of the flaws and nonsense in the story that make them uncertain, and particularly the imperfect nature their god deliberately baked into them.

Matthew 7:13-14

That is, believers walk a tightrope and can fall off the way, and few manage to make it the whole distance. Children are right to be terrified that they may be tempted off the narrow way.

Matthew 7:20–23

Not everyone who believes will get into heaven. Children should be terrified that they might be one who does not, because every Xian thinks they know Jesus, but many don't know that they do not.

You already said that people get it wrong. That was your whole defence to the meme. If they can get it wrong, they can be at risk of damnation. Children are right to be terrified that Jesus will forsake them.

Luke 14:26

Even if you believe in him, you have to hate your family. If you don't, tough luck. Children should be terrified of not loving Jesus enough, or loving their family too much.

James 2:26

Faith without works is insufficient. Children should be terrified that they haven't been good enough, done enough, not godly enough, not pious enough, not self-debasing enough.

For what it's worth, I've made the same argument as you. Matthew 12:31-32 tells us that mere belief is all that is required. Any believer can do as much evil in the world as they want, and never risk their precious afterlife. That's one of the deepest, most core, fundamental immoralities of Xianity. Hitler will go to heaven. I will not. Your system - and the imaginary fairy who created it - is completely, psychotically fucked up. It is wicked and deeply immoral.

This kind of creates an ethical bind for you. Evil Xians will go to heaven, or Xians can go to hell.

But also, this doctrine is so inconsistent, contrived and contradictory that I can easily make both cases simultaneously. Which means not only are you right, you're also wrong. Or to be more accurate, your beliefs are incoherent.

So, don't bring that whole "yOu GoT iT wRoNg" thing. Don't tell us. Don't blame us for pointing out what Xians do to their kids. And don't blame ex-Xians for the trauma their families and their preachers instilled in them in the name of the same fairytale book you share. Tell believers to stop scaring their kids. Tell believers they got it wrong. Tell believers they don't understand the bible and you do.

You won't do that, though.

Hey friends!! Regardless of varying viewpoints, would you please allow me to share what I think?? (I can still be your friend if we disagree... 😉 💜)

What's missing is a proper understanding of the law and Old Covenant, which is what the ten commandments were,

AND

The New Covenant which we are under since Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus' earthly ministry was done under the law; his audience were people under the law. His death was a great reset; he fulfilled the righteousness of the law FOR US. Now, we are under no obligation to it. And yes, that freedom is amazing.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Galatians 2:19 KJV

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. Romans 8:1‭-‬3 NLT

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” Galatians 3:10‭-‬11 NLT

Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Galatians 3:19 NLT

Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:21‭-‬22 NLT

There is a BIG difference between the two covenants. It can be confusing, but law and Grace have to have an "understanding"--and that is Jesus who redeemed is from the law and no longer condemns us, or keeps tabs on our wrongdoing, for we are in Him the Righteousness of God in Christ.

So because we are under the New Covenant, because Jesus has been our Perfect sacrifice... God doesn't really care if you have a tattoo. 😉 The law was given to show men's hopeless, sinful state but now we are not under law, we are under Grace. People who have bad taste in their mouth because Christians have condemned them for what they wear, what kind of pasts theyve had... They were dealing with Christians who have law and Grace unreconciled.

THE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL IS JESUS PLUS NOTHING.

The good news is... Children of God are wholly loved and.accepted by Jesus. And that, my friends, is not good news, it's The Best News Ever.

Ah, there you are.

Yep, right on cue. This is crunchy, munchy word salad.

Translation: “ignore what it says, instead pay attention while I condescend to you about my subjective interpretation and the apologetics I Googled and invented wholecloth. Because I just assume that if my religion makes itself look bad, it can only be because you just don’t understand it.”

You realize we can both understand it and not believe it?

You ignored the part where Lord says that his laws apply for a thousand generations, which has not elapsed yet and which an all-knowing god should have known about, and Jesus says the Old Testament applies forever, even though Xians claim that it no longer does.

You also just asserted a ton of stuff, like things not being in conflict, without justifying why they’re not based on anything tangible, even though they are in conflict. And all you did is quote verses that assert stuff but doesn’t actually resolve anything?

Except, he wasn’t. There is no Jewish prophecy that Jesus fulfils. Otherwise, Judaism would have ended. All the important prophecies that do exist don’t match Jesus. The few he does match are trivial. And many of the ones the New Testament claims Jesus fulfils don’t exist at all.

The cornerstones of all prophecy are vagueness, retrodiction, self-fulfillment, inevitability and denial.

If there was a promise, it remains unfulfilled. Just like the promised return of your savior. 2000 years of nothing.

Basically, you just ignored the fact that your Jesus and your god both insisted that the law applies forever - literally says so - and never actually addressed it in any way. You just did a little *sigh* and talked over the top.

What’s really interesting is that you never quoted Jesus. Not even once. You quoted Galatians multiple times, and Romans once. Not once did you use what Jesus himself said. Paul wasn’t even there; he wasn’t one of the companions of the Jesus character. And Paul insists on refuting what Jesus - and Lord - said.

If we are to go by Paul, then we must disregard Jesus and Lord as having no real idea what they were talking about. Lord and Jesus both said the law was forever, to keep it always. Paul says it ended when Jesus died. Paul. Not Jesus or Lord, but Paul. Jesus was wrong. Which makes everything else he said unreliable. How can both the messiah and the One and Only True God™ get this wrong, and Paul gets it right?

Oh, right. Because it’s all man-made myths and legends.

Either Jesus was right and Paul is wrong, or Paul is wrong and Jesus is right.

You keep quoting Paul, which tells me where you stand - aside from being a Catholic. You’re quoting a televangelist and ignoring what the central characters are saying. This means you’re a follower of Paul, not Jesus, or you’d quote them. You’re accepting Paul as having authority over Jesus, and your faith is in Paul, not Jesus.

What’s most notable about this is that you’re cherry-picking out not just the Old Testament - which is like 2/3 of the entire book -  even though your religion forbids it, but also discarding much of the New Testament, letting Paul abrogate what Jesus himself (supposedly) says.

Although, this is awkward:

Romans 3:31

Faith in Jesus does not abolish the law.

And yet, not once did you actually quote any of the gospels.

Like I did.

This is particularly weird since there is no evidence the character of Paul existed at all in the real world, let alone met Jesus. There is only the assertions of the character himself, as he exists entirely as a claim of the bible, written by some author who-knows-when. There’s more historical reason to think a real person vaguely resembling Jesus existed, than there is to think Paul did.

Translation: Xianity does not lead to morality, just a delusion of immortality.

Matthew 12:31-32

That is, believers get a blank check to do whatever they like. Xians don’t need to be moral or good, they just have to be believers. You confirmed this yourself: “those who belong” rather than “those who are good.” Which is why you will share heaven with Adolf Hitler and all those pedophile priests. They “belong” too. I do not. And I am unbelievably glad.

Xians don’t need to give a shit about this dirty, mortal world, because they have eternity in bliss. And their god will handwave any atrocious deed.

Somehow, everything else in the universe meets its end. But you declare you will not be participating. I guess that’s what you mean by being “in the world bu not of the world.” You’re just passing through a dirty little truckstop on your way to paradise.

Some of us actually live here. So you tourists can mind your own business.

What’s fascinating is that believers are either unaware or in denial that a “soul” or anything beyond “life” is impossible. We know how memories are stored and accessed in the brain. We know how personality manifests. We know you can alter consciousness, inspiration, imagination, memory, behaviour and personality by altering the brain. We can even split the brain into two and it exhibits completely different personalities on each half.

This is a drop-dead knockout to the narcissistic delusion that believers, uniquely, deserve to opt out of death. Without a physical brain, there’s no access to memories, personality, consciousness, behavior, etc, or anything that makes you you.

So, killing someone who didn’t do something absolves everyone else who didn’t do it either.

There’s nothing “righteous” about your god of baby cancer, of unwanted abortions (so-called “miscarriage”), who created evil, created sin, unleashed sin, created humans, didn’t make humans immune to this malady, didn’t even make us resistant to this malady, tried multiple times to fix it, still couldn’t, and still blames us for the whole thing.

Oh, and killed millions:  https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

Also, yes he does.

Luke 12:5

When Lord was done with you, you were dead. It was Jesus who brought hell, eternal condemnation. Jesus condemns people who aren’t in his clique. Regardless of whether they’re good or bad.

This is called extortion. When the mobster does it, they say “pay me or I’ll shoot you.” When Jesus does it he says “worship me or I’ll set you on fire.”

A god that needs worship is, by definition, imperfect and flawed. A perfect thing cannot have need of anything. It must be complete, with no deficiencies, no needs. If worship is needed, then it is necessarily imperfect.

Levititus 25:44-45

This is the law for the non-Israelite slaves. Your god told his followers to go out and enslave the non-Israelites. They are your property, you can own them for life, and you can hand them down to your descendants.

This is chattel slavery.

Numbers: 15:32-36

Deuteronomy 22:13-22

I’m sorry, you’re right, you’re right.

I concede this point. Picking up sticks on the Sabbath is a sin. Not being a virgin on your wedding day is a sin. Owning humans as property, and killing people for “sins” are not themselves sins.

How could the law of Moses “save us” when the rules - including all the slavery and stoning - were so grotesque and vile? And clearly as man-made as the god who ordered them. An eternal, omniscient morality should be astonishing, in any year, at any time in history, not primitive and barbarous only a few centuries later.

So, the only thing that is outstanding is why I should care the slightest about “sin” when it’s not the same as ‘right and wrong.” It’s just your god’s arbitrary law. You yourself said that it was just suddenly changed.

This means morality is not objective - any “new covenant” is itself merely the subjectivity of your god’s fiat - or “sin” and morality are independent domains. Or both. (The answer is both.)

Your god not only created the “law of Moses” - that you’re saying was ineffective and insufficient, revealing a god that is incompetent, not powerful enough, not knowing enough, or not benevolent.

But your god also created our nature. Your god created people (allegedly). If we have any kind of nature - inquisitive, co-operative, violent, benevolent, suspicious, altruistic - then it is solely because your god created that nature. Otherwise it cannot be our Creator. A creator god is necessarily responsible for its creation.

Whenever you believers say nonsense like this, it becomes clear you don’t think very much of humanity at all, by giving us all the blame for this (imaginary) problem.

And yet, you also don’t think very highly of your god either, because you make it clear it’s incapable of being responsible for its actions, like an incompetent child, one you must shield and protect because it cannot stand up to its own accountability.

You give humans all the blame, but none of the power, and your god all of the power, yet strip it of all responsibility. This doesn’t represent a very good opinion of anyone, really. It’s almost like you’re trying to scramble to justify an incoherent narrative. Almost.

An eternal god, by definition, cannot have a “new covenant.” A “new covenant” by the way is just another way of saying that this god is fallible. Especially since it had to throw its “bad” list away well before the “forever” or even the “thousand generations.”

Additionally, your god must also necessarily be solely responsible for the strength of that nature. Your god could have made us stronger in the face of this imaginary “sin” (wearing mixed fibers, picking up sticks on Saturday). But didn’t.

So, that’s three strikes:

The law that your god created. Riiiight. With all the stonings and slavery and shit, which was moral and not-sinful.

The bodies he made capable of this “sin.” Even though we’re not capable of independent flight or living in a vacuum or regrowing limbs. Your god can limit us without restricting free will, but didn’t make us incapable of - or averse to - sin. From your own description, your god didn’t just not make us averse, it made us prone and even enticed by “sin.”

But it wasn’t “like the bodies we sinners have” anyway, was it? Because he walked on water (allegedly) and didn’t even stay dead (purportedly). He got up, walked around with holes in him, and then flew home.

Name another “sinner” that this is “a body like.”

So, this isn’t even true.

Oh good, so it’s all over. By blood magic. Whew. I thought I had something to worry about, but you’re telling me the crisis is sorted. If I have to do anything, then it’s not ended, is it?

So weird that your creator god couldn’t make it so that there was an “end to sin’s control” by just declaring it so. You know, like with a word. Like he did with “let there be light.” He invented light with a word, but couldn’t fix the “sin” thing without ancient blood magic rites? Why didn’t he just die quietly as an anonymous sheep in an everyday butchery? Why does your god need to manipulate humans into murdering him in a dramatic public spectacle? This is an indicator of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

So, you lied. And you insist this is not contradictory and self-refuting. It is.

It’s also a grift. An attempt to impose a contractual consideration for a debt not agreed upon. This is why you call it a “covenant.” It’s an attempt to demand adherence to an imaginary contract by those who did not agree to it.

https://www.upcounsel.com/5-elements-of-a-legally-binding-contract

You don’t get to put a car in my driveway and demand I pay you money. You don’t get to be executed on my behalf before I’m even born and then insist I owe you. Especially when it didn’t stick and you didn’t lose anything.

Had I been there, and if it happened at all - I would have said no. I reject any notions of any debt.

Otherwise you owe Odin for destroying the Ice Giants. You don’t see any Ice Giants, do you? So, pay up. (You see how utterly absurd your mythology is, right?)

The “law” described the sins. You’re insisting that it no longer applies and went away, and yet “sin” is still around, despite it having nothing to describe it. You said yourself the Ten Commandments were of the Old Covenant.

Okay, so name a sin. Go on. One that isn’t in the Old Testament. Oh, some of them still apply? Like not murdering? Wait, that was on the Ten Commandments. Okay, which ones do still apply? It it just open to your interpretation and preference?

We had laws against murder, rape, theft and assault for centuries before Judaism and Xianity. Name a “sin” that is not an existing human moral law and that we already knew was wrong, and that is also not merely offending your god’s delicate sensibilities. Any will do.

“Sin” is the rules of your little club. Like how you don’t talk about Fight Club. I am not in your club. Your religion’s rules for its members do not apply to me. Therefore I cannot sin. Any more than you can be guilty of haram.

Why should I care what your scriptures say about me? Do you care whether the quran says that you cannot enter heaven without acknowledging Muhammad as Allah’s prophet? The quran says that you deserve no protection from rapists because you’re not wearing a hijab.

Why do I care what your book says about me when I don’t believe it any more than you believe the quran?

No, it literally says the opposite. You just quoted it saying the opposite, and inserted a word trick there. Yes, I spotted that. It doesn’t say that those who need to keep the law can’t be right with your god. It says you can’t be right with your god unless you keep the law.

Multiple times. Over and over:

John 7:16-19

Again, this is me quoting Jesus. Whereas you quote someone else. Who wasn’t even there.

You seem to be speaketh-ing of yourself, because you keep changing what your god really means compared to what your god says. Is that for your own glory?

Since the stick picking up and prenuptial intercourse “sin” is ended, but somehow there’s still this “sin” floating around, “sin” seems to be nothing more than an undetectable, immaterial, invisible disease that nobody can be cured of ever, despite your god inventing it and infecting humanity with it in the first place, and it being the crux by which we will be tortured for eternity.

Sounds totally made up. Since it is. It has never had anything to do with right or wrong. I don’t sin. I don’t recognize “sins” as moral imperatives. Any more than you recognize the Klingon code of combat as a moral imperative.

I recognize right and wrong. Morality, which is an evolved trait, and evident in other species as well.

I recognize that a god who prescribes slavery is an immoral god, rather than an eternal god giving temporary rules (which would be self-refuting). I recognize that a god who prescribes stoning a girl to death for not being a virgin at the time of her marriage is a god of evil.

As do you. If you would only be honest about it, and not deflect, distract or lie.

We know there’s a difference between the old and the new. That’s exactly the problem. You pick and you choose what applies. A Xian can claim that gay people are evil based on the old if they want, while the “nice” moderates say that it doesn’t apply. The “nice” ones will still dip into the supposed morality of the Ten Commandments (which are mostly a statement of your god’s narcissism).

You yourself said the Ten Commandments are dead.

What you’re actually saying is that the bible is unreliable at best, nonsense at worst. And that you pick and choose as you see fit, to suit your existing morality. You’re already doing exactly this when you judge your god by your own moral intuitions, and interpret and excise its scripture based on the same.

What’s mind-numbingly gross is how you call (supposed) torture of a (supposed) human person a “great reset.”

Wasn’t your god genociding everybody on the planet, except one incest family, also a Great Reset? Why does your god’s project keep needing to be rebooted? And why is it that nobody is pointing out that the one and only common factor in all of it is your god?

And why do you people venerate death and suffering? Is it because, as your mythology demonstrates, you don’t value life? You’re just marking time until you get out of this mere Earthly waiting room and move on to your eternal, celestial paradise?

And that you worship a god who would think the best solution to its own creation and unleashing of evil, is to goad humans into committing a bloody murder in order resolve that evil. And not only not find that absurd, but also think it’s the most beautiful thing of all.

We don’t need to call such a creature “god” nor worship it.

No, the good news is that we know, factually, this is all complete nonsense.

The good news is we know how the bible was authored.

The good news is we know how it was forged. For example, that the resurrection myth was added in the second century. This isn’t even controversial.

The good news is we know the original authors didn’t include it.

The good news is we also know the original authors weren’t there.

The good news is we know many of the myths that were plagiarized to create the bible myths.

The good news is we know that a god who is eternal and has a “new covenant” cannot exist.

The good news is we know that substitutional atonement/vicarious redemption is astonishingly immoral.

The good news is we know that torturing people when they’re dead for being the way your god (supposedly) made them in the first place, because your all-powerful god couldn’t or wouldn’t just resolve it itself is unjust and immoral.

The good news is we know that holding people to blame for the crimes of their ancestors is immoral and wrong.

The good news is we know that the Garden of Eden never happened, since we know how the human species came about.

The good news is we know that without the Garden of Eden fiasco that your god set up - warned them about the fruit, didn’t warn them about the snake, didn’t give them the knowledge of right and wrong to know that disobeying Lord was wrong - Original Sin doesn’t exist.

The good news is without Original Sin, Jesus serves no purpose. Your Jesus could only either be a myth or have died a fools’s death for a myth. But then we also know that the character, as described in the bible, never existed at all.

That all this is absurd nonsense we can comfortably ignore is the best news of all.

Saying stupid things like this to non-believers is sickeningly ingratiating and supremely condescending.

We cannot be friends, because your immoral belief system says that I deserve nothing less than eternal hellfire, no matter how good a person I am, for not believing in completely absurd tales for which no evidence exists, just a book of stolen, translated, manipulated, translated, altered tales of hearsay, myth and legend.

We cannot be friends, because your ideology casts me as a fallen, damaged, incomplete person, when I’m not. I am not a “sinner”, I don’t need forgiveness for things I didn’t do, nor salvation for crimes I’ve had no part in. I am not perfect, but don’t expect myself or others to be so. I expect myself and others to be human.

And I certainly don’t impose, upon creatures I made imperfect in the first place, laws commanding them to be perfect.

We cannot be friends, because your religion tells you that thinking this way, not just about me, but also yourself, trading in self-esteem and self-possession for degradation and slavery to a fictional monster is a good thing.

We cannot be friends because your religion divides us.

And because of this blood magic, you never ever have to accept responsibility for your actions. You can do anything you like, and then you can get your forgiveness from your god, without ever getting it from the person you wronged.

This is an immoral practice called “scapegoating”. Your guilt and responsibility were heaved onto an animal - a literal goat - which was then sent out to die into the desert to die of starvation and thirst in the wilderness.

This is Jesus. Jesus is the goat.

Jesus, through Lord’s demand for blood magic to be performed, is the New Testament human sacrifice that the goat was in the Old Testament. Which allows people to absolve themselves of their guilt and responsibility. And, of course, the sin that Lord couldn’t fix with the flood, and couldn’t prevent in the Garden in the first place.

Do you have the slightest conception of how insulting it is when you pop out something like this? You act like we don’t believe your stupid superstitions simply because someone was mean to us. You’re implying that our lack of desire to just fall in line with your demands is solely due to an emotional reaction, an emotional ouchie.

You still don’t get it. And you people just will never, ever, ever actually acknowledge the problem, because you explicitly refuse to even identify it.

You will not present your god. You will not substantiate your claims. You will not prove any of your assertions are in any way true. You barf up bits of your bible to justify the bits of your bible. You all claim to know the Truth™ and yet none of you can justify it. Even to each other. Because you all claim different Truth™.

We don’t believe your stupid superstitions, simply because your superstitions are stupid. We understand your stupid superstitions just fine. Many of us have read the bible cover to cover. I have.

Many of us abandoned this nonsense after years of preaching these stupid superstitions. Tim Sledge, Dan Barker, Darwin Chandler, all had multiple decades preaching these silly myths. They are not influenced merely by the ”meanies.”

This is a strawman you’ve concocted to prevent honest reflection about your contradictory, nonsensical, absurd mythology.

In any event, the meanies tell us that you’re not the True Scotsman.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

And, again, all you’re really doing is announcing that the bible is unreliable. If the meanies can get the wrong idea about it, then so can you. And neither of you can figure out who is correct, because you both use worthless “faith” to justify your belief. You justify your belief with faith, they justify theirs with faith. Everybody from every other religion uses their faith to conclude both you and the meanies are wrong.

We agree with all of you. You’re all full of it: “faith”.

I want to revisit this:

Your god condemns us for pasts we don’t even have. If you can reject as unreasonable the meanie Xians who blame people for their pasts, then we can reject as unreasonable your god, who blames everyone for something nobody did.

You rambled at length about how your god holds us responsible for: the sin in the world, despite the fact it created it and keeps faling to destroy it; wants gratitude for the “sacrifice” that nobody asked for; the “nature” that it gave us.

That is, you described your god as being one of the meanies.

I find your god to be one of the most repugnant fictional characters ever concocted. And Jesus, being the bringer of hell, and the gangster sent to lean on everyone for to cough up their protection money, is not far behind.

BTW:

Leviticus 19:19

Deuteronomy 22:5

On what basis do you pretend to dismiss the meanies, when your god (supposedly) also condemned people over what they wear?

Even Paul has opinions on this:

1 Corinthians 11:3-9

Along with a giant dollop of sexism.

Frankly, I’d rather have the honest Xians who don’t lie to me about what their bible says. That’s just my preference, though.

And yet, you ignore the Gospel entirely, and put all your faith into Paul, not Jesus.

In any event, I agree.

Nothing plus nothing equals nothing.

By: A Kabul resident

Published: Aug 16, 2021

“hIjAb iS eMpOwErInG!!1!” right? Especially when you don’t have a choice.

==

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/16/taliban-declares-war-is-over-in-afghanistan-as-us-led-forces-exit-kabul

WWMD? Exactly this. The Taliban, ISIS, al-Qaeda, they’re all exactly what Muhammad would, and did, do. They know with absolute certainty this is what their prophet would want, because he already did it. This is exactly what Islam calls upon its believers to do.

They’re not extremists. They’re fundamentalists.

The people going after the Jan 6 Xian nationalists are sure silent over this, despite it being 100 times worse. I bet we shouldn’t say anything bad because it would be “Islamophobic” and probably racist, and it’s probably culture not religion, and they’re “not true Muslims” anyway.

So, this sure turned out well, huh? Now we have two Irans, when we wanted none.

No these people ARE extremists. If you ever even bothered to read the Quran you would know that what the Taliban is doing goes against Islam. And to say the prophet would want this is just so wrong and disrespectful. Spreading misinformation like “They know with absolute certainty this is what their prophet would want, because he already did it. This is exactly what Islam calls upon its believers to do.” just causes more harm to innocent muslims anywhere when the vast majority of muslims ARE NOT ANYTHING LIKE THIS. Because they actually know what goes against Islam. Yes these are terrorist groups NOT fundamentalists. And yes this is 100% Islamophobic.

Name one thing the Taliban have done that Muhammad did not.

Whenever you’re ready.

Answer: he did all of it. And worse. Here’s a list, with full quran and hadith citations, that shows the things he did:

https://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/WWMD.aspx

They’re using his playbook. That’s why they know they’re doing the right thing. So, if you’re going to call them “terrorists” then you’re calling Muhammad a terrorist too.

Which works for me. I agree.

You can deny them, but you would be lying. And a blasphemer.

False. Read the quran and the hadith. Both Muhammad and Allah (Muhammad again) are clear about what you are supposed to do. If you have read them, then you already know this is false. If you haven’t then peruse the scripture linked above and referenced below - all sourced and linked - find out for yourself, and stop defending things based on nothing but a slogan and a brand name. “iT’s tHe rELiGiOn oF pEeeEEaaAAAcE!!1!”

Literally never said this. You seem to have a comprehension problem. People and ideas are separate. Islam is the idea. Muslims are the people. I don’t know whether you’re ignorant about this, or dishonestly trying to deflect in order to avoid valid scrutiny.

We can absolutely point out and criticize the beliefs, doctrine and everything that justifies what the Taliban are doing, and notice that it’s completely Islamic.

Islam says to conquer the world and spread Islam. Many Muslims do not do this because they don’t want to. It’s not because Islam doesn’t say to do it, nor say not to do it. It’s because they’re good people, but they’re not good Muslims, because they’re defying Islam.

You can be a good person, or you can follow Islam the way the doctrine tells you to and be a “good” Muslim.

They’ve chosen to be good people. The Taliban have chosen to be good Muslims. If you’ve chosen to be a good person, then that’s great. But don’t be ignorant or dishonest and deny what Islamic doctrine literally says.

This is what the Taliban are doing. Firstly, the word of Allah:

24.51

Good Muslims just obey. Good people use their judgement.

8.12

Good Muslims terrorize unbelievers and cut off their heads. Good people don’t.

4.34

Good Muslims beat their wives if they even suspect disobedience or unrighteousness. Good people do not.

5.33

Good Muslims slaughter, crucify, mutilate or banish unbelievers (those who “do corruption” in the land, i.e. oppose Allah and Muhammad). Good people do not.

9.123

Good Muslims fight unbelievers with harshness. Good people do not.

4.95

Good Muslims commit all of themselves to fighting to spread Islam, and the only excuse is to be injured. Good people don’t do this.

Now on to Muhammad:

https://quranx.com/Hadith/IbnMajah/DarusSalam/Volume-4/Book-24/Hadith-2794

Good Muslims shed their own and their horse’s blood in jihad. Good people don’t do things like this.

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Saliheen/In-Book/Book-12/Hadith-1299

Good Muslims rush to war, “seeking martyrdom or slaughter”. Good people find this gross and revolting.

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Saliheen/In-Book/Book-12/Hadith-1290

Good Muslims don’t care about the world, they just care about Allah and the afterlife. Good people find this alarming and realize it’s the justification for terrorism.

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Saliheen/In-Book/Book-12/Hadith-1287

Good Muslims fight for the Cause of Allah. Good people keep their beliefs to themselves.

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-4/Book-52/Hadith-260/

Good Muslims are violently opposed to anyone leaving Islam, and kill apostates. Good people wouldn’t even think of this.

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Saliheen/In-Book/Book-12/Hadith-1311

Good Muslims want to be martyrs who want to be killed 10 times in the name of Allah. Good people have no interest in being martyrs.

See? They’re just doing what Muhammad says.

And before you pop out “tHaT’s nOt wHaT iT mEaNs!!1!”, know that if you do, you’ve already lost the argument. Because you’re agreeing with me that they’re fundamentalists. They take Allah at his word. Unlike you who parses it through their personal (privileged, Western, “imperial”) education and morality lens, remaking Allah in your own image. As soon as you say “interpretation,” you’ve instantly conceded that point.

They are fundamentalists, not extremists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban (Infobox)

What will it take for you to actually acknowledge the truth, instead of desperately scrambling to ease your own panic about Islam’s fundamentals?

LOL, no, sweetie. That’s not gonna fly. “Islamophobia” is an incoherent nonsense word.

You dragging out the decomposing carcass of the dead horse that is the wail of “iSLaMoPhObIa!!1!” at every opportunity to shut people up and “win” the argument is has had its day.

By using it, you’re enabling the “bad” Islam, because you’re trying to protect an idea from valid scrutiny by pretending that doing so is “hate”. Even though you don’t protect any other ideas, like Xianity or Nazism from scrutiny. It means you’re the bigot. And it means you’re a terrorism enabler and supporter, because you’re trying to make people too afraid to criticize Islam when they absolutely should.

All out of a misguided delusion that people and ideas are the same. That criticizing Islam is “hate” for Muslims. They’re not. People know that, even if you don’t. You need to reflect on your flawed logic.

You can say “anti-Muslim bigotry,” in reference to specific targeted hate against Muslim individual people, hate that we should object to and oppose, but pop out “Islamophobia” and you instantly forfeit your right to sit at the grown-up table; go sit on the kiddie table with your juice box. People have had it with this shit, this manipulation. We know what you’re doing.

No matter how triggered discussing Islam honestly might make you, that’s not a reason why we shouldn’t; why we shouldn’t notice that the Taliban, ISIS and al-Qaeda are fully, fundamentalist Islamic. why we shouldn’t notice that people, such as Maajid Nawaz, Zainah Anwar and Amina Wadud who are practicing Muslims, and who are struggling to free Iran and other countries under Islamic rule have been screaming for people to pay attention and help them reform Islam.

Not reform extremists, but reform Islam.

Your triggered feelings are not our problem.

Indeed, you’re part of the problem. You’re trying to silence anyone from saying anything bad (i.e. honest) and in the process, silencing reformist Muslims who are trying to get valid criticism of Islam to be discussed, so they can be free. They want to tell their stories, we want to point out the problems, and you want to shut us all up and pretend Islam is peachy and good. It’s not.

By silencing criticism, you’re siding with the fundamentalists. You’re siding against humans, and with ideas.

You’re holding up Muslims as a human shield to protect Islam, the belief and ideology. Seriously, think about that, and what kind of person you want to be.

It should concern you that you’re spending more time and effort defending Islam, which is merely a belief, than these Afghanis who are already suffering - and will further suffer - under strict, traditional, fundamentalist Islam.

You care about looking virtuous. I don’t. I care about being honest, about truth.

You’re defending mere ideas. We’re criticizing ideas in support of people and the human rights they’re losing because of those ideas. You’re the anti-Muslim here, honey, not me.

Your priorities are screwed up, hun. And your sophistry is not going to work. You’re not fooling anyone.

So, don’t shoot the Messenger.

Or just not do that brainwashing thing he already did to the Pharaoh in the first place to make him not agree. Or kill nobody and do the brainwashing thing again to make him free the Israelites.

(Psst… the Exodus is a myth.)

Through the plagues, God showed his power over all the principal gods that were worshipped in the Nile valley, discrediting them and their presumed power. The God of Israel showed himself to be God over life, health, property, elements, and agriculture. Through the plagues, every Egyptian god and every sign of the gods became a horror and a torment to the people. And every conceivable part of Egyptian existence was affected. He didn’t do it because he “enjoys killing babies.” Also I am aware that God hardened his heart, but he did not take away his free will. Pharoah could have stopped it if he really wanted but chose not to.

Your "god" literally concocted this entire escalating magical arms-race farce, by brainwashing the Pharaoh in the first place. Your god didn’t have to do that if it was genuine. Let’s see how well you are able to exercise your “free will” when you’ve been magically convinced not to care about others. If it was merely a “free will” choice that could be made with or without a hardened heart, then there’s no reason why your god did that at all.

Either it did something ineffective and pointless, having no influence whatsoever on the Pharaoh’s decision making process, making your god an idiot, especially given how often the “hardened heart” quote appears in the story, or it manipulated the entire situation and is a villain. You seem to be admitting that it’s an idiot. Either the hardening did something or it didn’t.

And let’s honestly consider this for a moment. Your god, who absolutely will not violate the Pharaoh’s “free will” was completely happy with killing children who had free will of their own. You know, after all the other plagues and shit. Do you not see how seriously deranged this logic is?

And there it is. Your god’s need to show off, flex its might, prove its street-cred like a common thug, and earn the applause of mere humans. Through the aforementioned stupidity or villainy. He used the Pharaoh, Moses, Aaron and the (fictional) Israelite slaves as pawns in his desire to pump up its own cred.

That it felt the need to prove itself or win at all is an admission of its inferiority. A perfect god wouldn’t need anything, least of all adulation, competition or vengeance. Imagine feeling the need to prove how mighty you are to a nest of ants, to the extent of concocting an escalating war with them in order to make this point. Then recognize this is how pathetic your god truly is. 

So he had no choice and is not all-powerful. Interesting. Was there a way to use his god-magic that didn’t require killing innocent children? An all-knowing god could have thought of one instead of resorting to the primitive blood-magic of child murder. Like the meme suggests, couldn’t even think to just kill the Pharaoh, rather than innocent children loved and adored by their parents. An all-loving god would have. The only way to resolve this escalating war of literal magic - which originated with the brainwashing - was to kill children. Your god had no choice, and didn’t see this coming or he would have found a different tactic. Why do you worship this tiny, limited god? Especially one who already killed even more people - indeed, everybody in the world - with no success?

It’s remarkable to see the stupid excuses and self-refuting, contradictory logic made in the defence of absolute manipulative villainy and child-murder. It speaks to the vacancy of religious morality. Or perhaps just the shallow “cat-attacking-the-red-dot” logic of religious apologetics.

Also, you’re admitting that - in Bible-Land, at least, which Xtianity thinks is Real-World-Land - there is more than one god. So, when we ask you “which god?”, you can wipe that annoyed look off your face.

Thank goodness this god is trapped inside its silly book.

LOL, no.

Find a single reference anywhere to Hitler actually renouncing his Catholicism.

Meanwhile...

Associated Press article from when Hitler was Chancellor and prior to being notorious:

From “Mein Kampf” (1925-1926):

Prayer, May 1, 1933:

Speer, Albert. “Inside the Third Reich” (1997):

Speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood (1989). Hitler: The Path to Power:

Speech delivered at Munich 12 April 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed. (1942). The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939:

Note: from 1922.

Speech in Passau 27 October 1928 Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf; from Richard Steigmann-Gall (2003). Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945:

Again, note that the above speech was mede in 1928.

Speech delivered at Stuttgart 15 February 1933; from Norman H. Baynes, ed. (1969). The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939:

Ernst Christian Helmreich. “The German Churches Under Hitler: Background, Struggle, and Epilogue.” (1979):

What you’re saying is also super-weird. That in the entirety of his... shall we call, “career,” Hitler never thought, “you know what, I’ve got enough power that I don’t need to keep this ruse up any longer.” That is, he needed to keep up the ruse in order to sustain the support of the Xtians. Consider that for a moment. This line of reasoning doesn’t do what you think it does.

Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich (quoted from Helmreich) was sufficiently convinced of his faith:

It’s weird that you are more certain of Hitler’s mind, having never met him, than the Cardinal who did.

Birthday message instructed by Pope Pius XII, sent by Cardinal Bertram:

Similar messages were sent every year on April 20.

None of the messages were excommunication notices, since literally nothing he did qualified for excommunication.

John Toland, “Adolf Hitler” (1992):

He repeatedly described Jesus as a “warrior” and saw himself following in the same “warrior” footsteps.

Speech in Munich December 1926; from Richard Steigmann-Gall (2003). Holy Reich: Nazi conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945:

Seriously, just... stop.

Your sacred beliefs are pseudepigrapha lies.

Believe what you want, but as mythology you have to understand the seed of wiseness hidden beyond the words.

If you prefer to stay stuck to the doorway as you wish. Anyway everyone nourish it’s beliefs as they want…

Still most of the New testament has been rewritten by Roman emperor in order to drive this new religion that would have overthrown they into a more “satisfying” message.

Nontheless keep in mind that this new testament has been the best work to merge humanism seen by the 2 great Occidental cultures : Greeks(taken and developed from mesopotamia) and Hebrew which inherited from Egyptians.

Since we have had many spouts from this time, Islam, Protestantism, and even unions born from Indian Buddhism and Tao as the Psychology, New Age and the Spiritism that merged more lately.

Anyway, all of those are flowers that sprout from great spirits born into men and women.

Don’t throw away the baby with the bath waters. The important thing is to practice rituals that bring well being, pragmatical understanding of our place in this world and spirit awakening to Life and it’s treasures.

PS: I insist on the pragmatical… Mystics are so messy… 😏

Like slavery is pretty good, and raped women should be married off to their rapist? Maybe that disease is caused by demons, or that you should deny a woman who seeks your assistance because she’s different - you should instead call her a literal “dog.”

Because humans are broken from birth, should feel guilty for things they didn’t do, and this can only be resolved by a fake public blood sacrifice performance conducted to satisfy the theatrics of the main character’s vanity. And later, look forward to returning and burning the entire planet during your comeback tour.

That sort of wisdom?

Empty, pseudo-profound platitude. 

Meaning you’re contradicting yourself. If you believed this, you’d have no business being here. Least of all rambling about “doorways” or whatever. You’re trying to have it both ways, where you get to lecture people, then feign congeniality when you get pushback, taking the role of put-upon martyr. You don’t think that isn’t transparent?

So, yes, it is lies. Why then are you arguing about this meme.

No, it was created so that it could be forced down the throats of the populace to control them. Everybody who wasn’t the “right” kind of Xtian, or a Xtian at all, could be, and was, arrested and executed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

Which is to say, it was a “satisfying message” to the people who wanted to dominate and marginalize others, including dissenters. It replaced one form of persecution with a more violent and pervasive form of persecution, crafted by and for the ones who wanted to be doing the persecuting. Which continued for more than a millennium, through multiple Inquisitions.

None of which changes the fact that it’s falsehoods and lies.

And yes, Islam learned at the feet of Xtianity.

It’s plagiarized from multiple other cultures, provides no new, novel insights, drops most of the nuance, such as the 42 Principles of Ma’at, the Egyptian Wisdom Texts, Epic of Gilgamesh, Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, while introducing the immorality of eternal torture for finite slights (including thought crime), infinite moral exoneration for submission to its edicts, and inserting the narcissistic, jealous, capricious, vengeful god character as the central point of the story, in both ghost and meat forms.... and you think this monstrous, nonsensical, contradictory tome is the “best work”?

It’s an immoral tale of hate, violence and intolerance. And yes, that includes the New Testament.

Literal flowery nonsense.

Due to the evolution of human morality, which can be found in other animals as well - altruism, empathy, protection, concern for wellbeing. Not understanding this doesn’t defend a book used to perpetrate hate and justify tyranny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

I will absolutely throw out the worthless and the pointless. Not to mention the false and dishonest. I care about what’s true.

The key point, which you’re steadfastly refusing to address or even acknowledge, is that the book is filled with forgeries. It’s presented as the wisdom of a god, but they’re lies. This doesn’t seem to bother you in the least.

When the book’s key lesson is to submit yourself to life-long subjugation to an invisible sky-demon, or suffer unimaginable torture for eternity, it matters whether or not this threat is true or a lie.

Unless you are confessing to your own sociopathy, humans already do this. Have been for millennia, all around the world, including where Xtianity had never been heard of.

In any event, this means that we don’t need the bible at all. We can use the stories of Star Trek or Harry Potter.

It’s notable that you didn’t say that the important thing is truth.

Science does this. Without the intellectual dishonesty and the bias. Oh, and the fraud, don’t forget the fraud.

Empty, pseudo-profound bullshit. Define “spirit”. I dare you.

And yet, you provide nothing but mystical word salad, devoid of pragmatism. Go on, measure the practical success of “spirit”. How do you plan to pragmatically detect and measure “spirit awakening”?

http://wisdomofchopra.com

You want pragmatism? Let’s count the number of wars instigated or conducted in the name of the god of this fairytale. How about the number of deaths?

Let’s see who is out there in the world doing good for the sake of good, and who is out there trying to score points to attend the Life afterparty. Let’s see who needs the bible to be good, and who doesn’t. Can’t get much more pragmatic than that.

There is literally nothing that this fraudulent storybook provides that cannot - and is not - achieved without it. You spout about “humanism” and yet you’re explicitly erasing the achievements of secular humanists who tirelessly work to make the world better - without this blood-soaked tome. You’re explicitly denying the morality which evolved in other native cultures in North America, South America, Asia, Australia and many other locations which formed cohesive, moral communities based on wellbeing and harmony, well away from Xtian dogma and biblical falsehoods. By definition. Since, if they had not, they would be extinct. Immoral societies do not survive.

Perhaps worst of all is that you appear to care nothing whatsoever about the greatest victim of all in this: truth. Seemingly, not even a priority. Literally no mention of it. Your entire little rant can be summarized as “oh, it’s a lie, but it’s a nice lie.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/PastorArrested

Get your shit together, and stop valuing barbaric bronze-age tales over actual humans and the value we have to each other. And maybe one say start considering what’s true, rather than what fluffs up your sense of self-importance.

Kindness includes being willing to tell someone the truth. Rather than pander to their delusions, simply because it’s “easier” or feels nicer. To validate comforting lies is to regard the other person as too stupid to be able to do any better, incapable of handling truth.

Consciousness is an activity of the brain. If someone doesn’t have it, wishing it to them won’t endow it... because it means they are dead.

When your “perfect human” - so perfect that even Adam, the first human, already knew about and admired him - is a child raping pedophile warlord, you’ve already forfeited the right to whine about “muh religious sentiments,” or lecture anyone whatsoever about being “offended.”

you know, it really doesn’t help to spread shit like this around. first of all, Muslims definitely do not all agree that this happened at all as the historical evidence is basically non-existent and even islamic sources (the hadith quoted above) do not agree with each other on Aisha’s age. They were written more than 200 years after Muhammad may or may not have existed. There is a chance she never existed at all.

Yes, Islam has problems and certain things need to be critiqued, and the belief of some muslims in this is definitely an issue, but to spread this around as if all believe that or its an indisputable truth is just ridiculous and antagonistic, and doesn’t help anything - doesn’t help people leave Islam, doesn’t help the religion reform. All it does is further antagonise a religion that Westerners barely know anything about.

All authentic sources of Aisha’s own testimony confirm she was aged nine at the time. These alternate ages have been derived from misquotations, indirect sources, fuzzy dating techniques, and slander, in an attempt to cast doubt upon facts which have been unquestionably accepted by Muslims for almost 1,500 years.

Even today, the vast majority of the world's Muslims acknowledge and accept Aisha's young age and many of these honest Muslims take offense to these lies propagated by western apologists for Islam who are embarrassed by the Islamic prophet's actions. In fact, Islamic scholar and teacher of Fiqh at Sunnipath.com and Livingislam.org, Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad's work can be read here.

Let’s be clear about the references in the meme, since there are people in the comments claiming that they’re “fake” or “false.”

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/6

https://quranx.com/hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-7/Book-62/Hadith-88/

https://quranx.com/65.4

https://quranx.com/68.4

https://quranx.com/33.21

Those are the verses from the hadith and quran referenced in the meme. So, is the meme lying, or are the apologists?

Let’s go a little further, shall we?

https://muslim-library.com/books/2019/05/en_Tabari_Volume_09.pdf#131

https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-5/Book-58/Hadith-234/

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/4/99

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/51/16

https://sunnah.com/nasai/26/183:

Playing with dolls and similar images is forbidden in Islam, unless you are a child who has yet to reach the age of puberty. Thus, the doll-playing exegesis applied to the relevant hadith narrations prove that Aisha remained pre-pubertal at the time of consummation.

http://al-quran.info/#65:4

The “not yet” part is agreed to by Islamic scholars, linguistically distinct from a wife who has stopped (menopause). Of course, the notion that you can divorce this child necessarily requires it’s legal and acceptable that you married her in the first place.

https://sunnah.com/muslim/16/84

Disputed (naturally) due to other factors around Islamic marriage, but since the hadiths are clear about the ages, for this apologetic to work, it must necessarily be an admission they’re unreliable.

What you’re actually trying to say is that the key texts that underpin the entire Islamic faith, including when and how to pray, what is halal and what is haram, are vague and opaque and unreliable, and anybody’s guess is as good as anyone else’s, because nobody can know anything about anything. That Islamic scholars who have dedicated their lives to studying and understanding them are just misguided. As judged by a random 20 year old American on Tumblr, who would be executed in several Islamic countries.

And yet, it’s only the moral panic of modern non-Muslim busybody apologists within the last 50 years that have tried to rewrite and remake what has been well understood and accepted for over a millennium. It’s weird that this was never in contention until recently, and it’s notable who are the ones contending it.

Indeed, in countries ruled according to Sharia law, child welfare agencies have been frustrated with not being able to get much traction, since banning of child marriage is in direct opposition to Islam, since Muhammad was the most perfect human to ever exist, and thus the model for all humanity.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/pakistan-court-allows-men-to-marry-underage-girls/

https://iranian.com/2009/09/10/domestic-violence-against-single-and-married-women-in-iranian-society/

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=455_1220899763

So, apparently these deeply Islamic countries have national laws that, oops, they’ve just misunderstood.

Good thing you’re here to set them right.

Excellent. That’s what this meme is doing. Unless you think the central figure’s pedophilia is somehow irrelevant... even though it’s well documented in the exact same foundational texts from which the Sharia practices like prayer and halal are directly derived... and that said pedophilia needs to be kept quiet. (You don’t work for the Catholic Church do you?)

If you’re determined to spend your life feeling antagonized simply because facts are stated, you’re sure not going to enjoy very much of the rest of your life.

I’ve consistently said that the entire religion is a con perpetrated by a pedophile warlord, predating the same “self-authenticating prophet” scam pulled by Joseph Smith to create Mormonism. But it’s “true” in the sense that it’s true that this is what Islam teaches and believes. It doesn’t matter if you find this ridiculous.

Since it’s understood and accepted by Islamic scholars, this appears to be more about your own sensibilities, and alleviating your discomfort, through what is nothing more than denial.

Whether or not it’s indisputable truth is quite frankly irrelevant. Muslims believe it to be truth, as much as Muhammad being Allah’s prophet is believed by Muslims to be truth. His... “relationship” with Aisha is a key component of the foundation of their religion, attesting to Muhammad’s perfection. And yet, here you are “fixing” it for them, because...?

Here are two comprehensive refutations of the “bUt, bUt mAyBe sHe wAs 0lDer!1!” apologetic. You will, of course, whine that it’s a wiki, in order to strategically ignore the fact is comprehensively sourced in the references.

For reference, WikiIslam is run by the ex-Muslims of North America, an advocacy and support group for people apostasizing from Islam. They, more than any other group, and certainly more than you, should know what information is valuable to those apostasizing.

It’s funny that you think actively deconverting people is the purpose this meme serves. As if a mere meme is all it takes to dissolve lifelong faith and indoctrination.

It couldn’t be that it’s instead intended to remind people, both devout Muslims and non-Muslims alike, that nobody is under any obligation to bend the knee to Islam’s demands or sensibilities, that no idea is beyond criticism or scrutiny, or reveal to the unfamiliar what type of beliefs actually reside within the Islamic faith. And maybe to set off a little buzz of discomfort in the minds of moderate Muslims who might be susceptible to questioning their beliefs.

Meanwhile, here you are, getting upset on other people’s behalf. And making Kettle Logic apologetics.

As with whether or not it’s indisputable truth, either figure actually existing in reality is completely irrelevant. Jesus doesn’t need to actually have existed in reality for people to believe he did, praise him as their savior and hold up John 3:16 cards at sporting matches.

We have no reason to think their god exists either. But Muslims believe it’s true, they believe it happened, and they believe Muhammad was the perfect human, chosen by Allah himself.

What’s more remarkable, though is to say that Aisha and/or Muhammad never existed at all is even more blasphemous, insulting and offensive to Islam than pointing out what the hadiths themselves plainly say, and what learned Islamic scholars acknowledge. If Muhammad didn’t exist, then the quran is not the revealed word of Allah. Your “defence” of islam, therefore, is that it’s completely false because their beloved prophet and his favorite wife are lies.

Yes, that’s much better than citing hadith that state an acknowledged thing.

I’m sure it’s a great comfort to Samuel Paty, Theo van Gogh and the people from the Notre Dame basilica that they may have died over cartoons of fictional prophets. Cause that’s not even more appalling. /s

I’d love to watch you Islamsplain that to any devout Muslim on Twitter.

[michaeljackson-popcorn.gif]

In a completely unrelated note, are you particularly fond of the angle at which your head connects to your body, or is it really just more of a preference?

https://religion-is-a-mental-illness.tumblr.com/tagged/behead-those-who-insult-islam

As you’ve clearly demonstrated.

Only someone deeply ignorant of Islam and determined to defend it, as ignorantly and blasphemously as they do vigorously - in the way a cat defends the house from the red dot - would resort to such silly and demonstrably false assertions.

A good question.

Why do actions have long term consequences ?

They clearly do. Some people think if they don’t accept this it will not be so, yet it is.

Some things just need to be treated with respect.

If Religion says anything it is surely that there is a wider reality outside of our limited experience and that reality is dangerous and requires respect, just as someone working on live high voltage power transformers acts with care and with respect for the consequences of acting carelessly.

This is unbelievably vacuous. It’s presented as if it’s some kind of “answer”, yet it’s just empty platitudes with all the depth of a child explaining to their younger sibling how Santa delivers so many presents in one night.

Just stating things as if they’re true covers none of the distance to actually demonstrating they are true. Argument by assertion is a fallacy and does not constitute proof.

It is up to you to prove that your god exists at all, and that these abominable, immoral consequences are real. Islam says that if you don’t devote your life to living up to the moral standard of the pedophile prophet, you will be justifiably burned in Jahannam, because you denied Allah, rejected Muhammad as his prophet, and failed to live to the rules of Sharia.

You are clearly unbothered by this. You think that if you don’t accept this it will not be so, yet it is. According to Islam.

There are thousands of afterlife consequences that await you, for various actions various gods and prophets don’t want you to do. Which even Homer Simpson figured out decades ago.

You see the problem? We don’t need to treat things with respect that do not exist. Especially when you refuse to actually prove that they do exist, and accidentally reveal that you can only find them if you think that they already do exist.

Meanwhile, your religion does not promote morality. Indeed, it rewards immorality.

Jesus should know, he wouldn’t get something like that wrong, would he?

There is no amount of raping you can do, no amount of pedophilia (explaining your Catholic priests), no amount of abuse, genocide, torture, embezzlement, theft or corruption you can perpetrate that will not be unquestioningly forgiven. Adolf Hitler will be in heaven. So will Jeffery Dahmer. Their sins have been forgiven, like they never even happened. Enjoy your eternity with them.

Because your broken morality says that you do not even need the forgiveness of the one you wronged to have the sin expunged. You can hurt someone, send a poem to your god, and all is right with the world. What happens to your victim is irrelevant. You cast a +10 “Spell of Repentance” and the dungeon master says the path ahead of you is clear. Just like with your pedophile priests. They’re right with god. What does it matter if mere mortal humans pass judgement on them? What’s a scant few years in this dirty, sinful, temporary, mortal realm when you’ve got your golden ticket to eternal paradise stamped and ready to go? What does it matter how you affect the lives of mere humans, when only god’s opinion matters, only god’s consequences are relevant, only god can judge you, right? Pedophilia isn’t in the Ten, is it? Your god’s spokesman even told conquering warriors to kill everyone but the virgin girls, who the warriors should take for their own purposes. Which means your god endorsed it. If you have a problem with pedophile priests remaining in the clergy, then you’re explicitly rejecting your god’s system.

You spout about actions having long-term consequences. Yet literally the only action that (supposedly) has long-term consequences is lack of belief. Just like how you don’t believe that Muhammad was the perfect prophet of Allah. Or that Quetalcoatl is the divine feathered serpent. Or that Mbombo vomited the world into existence. Or that Hel resides over the underworld realm of Hel. Or that Anubis undertakes the ceremony of the Weighing of the Heart to decide if you will proceed to Aaru or be condemned to Duat, your heart consumed by Ammit.

All of these have long-term consequences and need to be treated with respect. Just like your... thing.

Your god cares nothing about the consequences of acting carelessly - or even deliberately maliciously - against real, tangible humans in this life. Your god literally doesn’t give a shit. The god of your fairytale book cares only about itself. Its priority is itself. As demonstrated by the top four of its Ten Commandments, the most important rules are not about real consequences to real people. The consequences are about feeding its own neediness. Your god needs to be worshipped. Which, by definition of the word “perfect”, makes it imperfect. (Perfect things do not, by definition, need anything. A perfect god that needs to be worshipped or even recognized or acknowledged is a god that cannot exist.) As Revelation tells us, your god’s endgame is the reward in heaven that it gives to itself: worship-slaves at the foot of its throne for eternity, endlessly, mindlessly praising it. You are the reward, not the receiver of the reward.

The “consequences” your god cares about have nothing to do with right and wrong, with a real threat like being electrocuted, which we can detect, verify and measure. Let’s measure your god. Let’s verify its existence. You know, outside of your bible, and outside of “I feel him in my heart,” and outside of “jUsT lo0k aR0uNd y0u!1!”

You think this is an “answer”, yet it’s simply a rationalization for yourself, for why you believe the (imaginary) gun you think is pointed at your head, like the threat of a mafia boss, is a good thing. Even though there is literally no reason to think the gun exists at all.

Which means that your silly attempt to equate it with something real and measurable is laughable. You don’t seem to know how any of this logic stuff actually works. Meanwhile, the risk is imposed by your god. Things can’t exist without your god creating them, right? Hell, the consequences, the test, the rules by which this stupid process works, are all the responsibility of your god. Your god put the power lines there, turned them on, and then hung them over your head. Your god created the danger itself. And you think this is a good thing.

It means that either your god wanted this process to exist, whereby the overwhelming majority of people, including those who existed prior to Jesus, are tortured in hell for eternity, or it had no choice. Only 31% of people worldwide are Xtians - we will ignore for a moment the fact that most of you who follow flavors of Xtianity think all those who follow the other flavors are damned as well - so your god has set up this deranged “consequences” system so that the majority of all humans worldwide will suffer eternal torment.

And yet, despite this urgency, this critical threat to human afterlife (which we know to be a myth), the most dire peril to the entirety of the human race, beyond even the coronavirus itself, the only PSA it has ever cared to put out is a plagiarized, forged, translated, multiply revised tale of stolen myths written by nobody who was actually there, about what people think happened. Which don’t even agree with each other. And is the only reason you think any of this craziness is “true” at all.

Your god apparently wants it this way. Or doesn’t really care enough to get a higher score. Or possibly has no say in the matter. Whichever it is, it doesn’t reflect well on your god.

(”Mysterious ways,” right? That’s what you’re thinking. But as soon as you do that, you forfeit the right to claim anything about your god. You can’t claim to know things about the unknown or unknowable. And you’ve so far claimed you do know, by pretending to offer answers.)

A loving parent does not set traps around the house for their children to fall into, to suffer permanent, irreversible injury. A loving parent does not set these traps, then give vague, contradictory, “open to interpretation” instructions about avoiding them. A loving parent does not blame the child when they are injured by the traps that have been set in the house by the parent: “I told you, so these are the consequences.” We imprison parents like that, as abusive and unfit, and take away their children. We are aghast that a parent would be satisfied with only 31% of their children surviving life in this house of traps and deliberately constructed dangers. Let alone proclaim their own parental perfection for setting this up in the first place.

And yet, you act like this celestial parent of traps and tests and maiming and eternal punishments is the most loving, most fit parent of all. For the sole reason that you believe if it can do something, when it does it, it’s justified and righteous in doing that thing. Whatever it does is justified and righteous, because it says that whatever it does is justified and righteous. (i.e. it is its own validation of its own actions. Which eliminates objective morality, BTW.) Like a bully who says that she’s allowed to push you into the mud because she can push you into the mud.

You must think the Jigsaw Killer to be the hero of the Jigsaw movies. He puts a risk in front of you. The risk must be respected. It is there to teach you the consequences of your actions, of living carelessly, of not living up to the Jigsaw Killer’s standards of morality. Indeed, he’s more moral, as he seeks only for the players in his games to learn lessons for themselves, not to feed his own narcissism like your god. The test is real and tangible, and he is clear about the rules of the game, not vague and acting in “mysterious ways” such that nobody can verify the game - or the killer himself - exists at all. And if they fail the test, they are simply dead. He doesn’t torture them forever for failing the test. Your god is a lesser moral being than the Jigsaw Killer.

A god that demands respect is not worthy of it. A god that is worthy of respect would not demand it. Everything you said simply reinforces the meme. Of how immoral and appalling your vile god is, and how ready you are to rationalize and corrupt your own morality in defence of the indefensible.

Because you’re afraid of it and what it will do to you. That is, you’re obedient, not good.

Thank goodness we have no reason to worry that it exists at all. Any more than we need to be worried about our hearts being consumed by Ammit.

If it turns out that your god of baby cancer, who punishes reasonable disbelief in the absence of evidence and the lack of any method of distinguishing it from every other human-created god, yet handwaves torture, rape, cannibalism and genocide on the basis of having its ego stroked by its besties actually exists, and if that’s how its system works, then I will wade neck-deep into the deep end of the lake of lave with a smile on my face, and spend eternity grinning ear to ear in the knowledge I am a moral colossus compared to your immoral, depraved, sick fuck of a Hitler-cuddling, Dahmer-canoodling god.

Also, Santa doesn’t exist.