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#science vs religion – @religion-is-a-mental-illness on Tumblr

Religion is a Mental Illness

@religion-is-a-mental-illness / religion-is-a-mental-illness.tumblr.com

Tribeless. Problematic. Triggering. Faith is a cognitive sickness.
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This is atheism in a nutshell: one person says, "there's a god." An atheist says, "can you prove that?" They say, "no." The atheist says "I don't believe you."
That's it. That's all it is.
You see, if you took every holy book, every holy book there's ever been, every religious book, every bits of spirituality and hid them or destroyed them, okay, they went away. Then you took every science book and destroyed that, in a thousand years' time, those science books would be back, exactly the same. Because the tests would always turn out the same.
Those religious books would either never exist or they'd be totally different. Because there's no test.
Source: twitter.com
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By: Eliezer Yudkowsky

Published; Aug 4, 2007

The earliest account I know of a scientific experiment is, ironically, the story of Elijah and the priests of Baal.
The people of Israel are wavering between Jehovah and Baal, so Elijah announces that he will conduct an experiment to settle it—quite a novel concept in those days! The priests of Baal will place their bull on an altar, and Elijah will place Jehovah’s bull on an altar, but neither will be allowed to start the fire; whichever God is real will call down fire on His sacrifice. The priests of Baal serve as control group for Elijah—the same wooden fuel, the same bull, and the same priests making invocations, but to a false god. Then Elijah pours water on his altar—ruining the experimental symmetry, but this was back in the early days—to signify deliberate acceptance of the burden of proof, like needing a 0.05 significance level. The fire comes down on Elijah’s altar, which is the experimental observation. The watching people of Israel shout “The Lord is God!”—peer review.
And then the people haul the 450 priests of Baal down to the river Kishon and slit their throats. This is stern, but necessary. You must firmly discard the falsified hypothesis, and do so swiftly, before it can generate excuses to protect itself. If the priests of Baal are allowed to survive, they will start babbling about how religion is a separate magisterium which can be neither proven nor disproven.
Back in the old days, people actually believed their religions instead of just believing in them. The biblical archaeologists who went in search of Noah’s Ark did not think they were wasting their time; they anticipated they might become famous. Only after failing to find confirming evidence—and finding disconfirming evidence in its place—did religionists execute what William Bartley called the retreat to commitment, “I believe because I believe.”
Back in the old days, there was no concept of religion’s being a separate magisterium. The Old Testament is a stream-of-consciousness culture dump: history, law, moral parables, and yes, models of how the universe works—like the universe being created in six days (which is a metaphor for the Big Bang), or rabbits chewing their cud. (Which is a metaphor for . . .)
Back in the old days, saying the local religion “could not be proven” would have gotten you burned at the stake. One of the core beliefs of Orthodox Judaism is that God appeared at Mount Sinai and said in a thundering voice, “Yeah, it’s all true.” From a Bayesian perspective that’s some darned unambiguous evidence of a superhumanly powerful entity. (Although it doesn’t prove that the entity is God per se, or that the entity is benevolent—it could be alien teenagers.) The vast majority of religions in human history—excepting only those invented extremely recently—tell stories of events that would constitute completely unmistakable evidence if they’d actually happened. The orthogonality of religion and factual questions is a recent and strictly Western concept. The people who wrote the original scriptures didn’t even know the difference.
The Roman Empire inherited philosophy from the ancient Greeks; imposed law and order within its provinces; kept bureaucratic records; and enforced religious tolerance. The New Testament, created during the time of the Roman Empire, bears some traces of modernity as a result. You couldn’t invent a story about God completely obliterating the city of Rome (a la Sodom and Gomorrah), because the Roman historians would call you on it, and you couldn’t just stone them.
In contrast, the people who invented the Old Testament stories could make up pretty much anything they liked. Early Egyptologists were genuinely shocked to find no trace whatsoever of Hebrew tribes having ever been in Egypt—they weren’t expecting to find a record of the Ten Plagues, but they expected to find something. As it turned out, they did find something. They found out that, during the supposed time of the Exodus, Egypt ruled much of Canaan. That’s one huge historical error, but if there are no libraries, nobody can call you on it.
The Roman Empire did have libraries. Thus, the New Testament doesn’t claim big, showy, large-scale geopolitical miracles as the Old Testament routinely did. Instead the New Testament claims smaller miracles which nonetheless fit into the same framework of evidence. A boy falls down and froths at the mouth; the cause is an unclean spirit; an unclean spirit could reasonably be expected to flee from a true prophet, but not to flee from a charlatan; Jesus casts out the unclean spirit; therefore Jesus is a true prophet and not a charlatan. This is perfectly ordinary Bayesian reasoning, if you grant the basic premise that epilepsy is caused by demons (and that the end of an epileptic fit proves the demon fled).
Not only did religion used to make claims about factual and scientific matters, religion used to make claims about everything. Religion laid down a code of law—before legislative bodies; religion laid down history—before historians and archaeologists; religion laid down the sexual morals—before Women’s Lib; religion described the forms of government—before constitutions; and religion answered scientific questions from biological taxonomy to the formation of stars.1 The modern concept of religion as purely ethical derives from every other area’s having been taken over by better institutions. Ethics is what’s left.
Or rather, people think ethics is what’s left. Take a culture dump from 2,500 years ago. Over time, humanity will progress immensely, and pieces of the ancient culture dump will become ever more glaringly obsolete. Ethics has not been immune to human progress—for example, we now frown upon such Bible-approved practices as keeping slaves. Why do people think that ethics is still fair game?
Intrinsically, there’s nothing small about the ethical problem with slaughtering thousands of innocent first-born male children to convince an unelected Pharaoh to release slaves who logically could have been teleported out of the country. It should be more glaring than the comparatively trivial scientific error of saying that grasshoppers have four legs. And yet, if you say the Earth is flat, people will look at you like you’re crazy. But if you say the Bible is your source of ethics, women will not slap you. Most people’s concept of rationality is determined by what they think they can get away with; they think they can get away with endorsing Bible ethics; and so it only requires a manageable effort of self-deception for them to overlook the Bible’s moral problems. Everyone has agreed not to notice the elephant in the living room, and this state of affairs can sustain itself for a time.
Maybe someday, humanity will advance further, and anyone who endorses the Bible as a source of ethics will be treated the same way as Trent Lott endorsing Strom Thurmond’s presidential campaign. And then it will be said that religion’s “true core” has always been genealogy or something.
The idea that religion is a separate magisterium that cannot be proven or disproven is a Big Lie—a lie which is repeated over and over again, so that people will say it without thinking; yet which is, on critical examination, simply false. It is a wild distortion of how religion happened historically, of how all scriptures present their beliefs, of what children are told to persuade them, and of what the majority of religious people on Earth still believe. You have to admire its sheer brazenness, on a par with Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. The prosecutor whips out the bloody axe, and the defendant, momentarily shocked, thinks quickly and says: “But you can’t disprove my innocence by mere evidence—it’s a separate magisterium!”
And if that doesn’t work, grab a piece of paper and scribble yourself a Get Out of Jail Free card.

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1 The Old Testament doesn't talk about a sense of wonder at the complexity of the universe, perhaps because it was too busy laying down the death penalty for women who wore mens clothing, which was solid and satisfying religious content of that era.

==

I've said this myself less eloquently. Believers say, "pffth, you're not supposed to take it literally." Since when? Where does it say that?

The scripture was written as a science book, a morality book, a law book, a history book. For over a thousand years it was regarded as "true."

Now that we've figured out it's wrong, all of a sudden, it's not supposed to be taken literally? That sure is embarrassing for all of the governments, courtrooms, schools and institutions that based their laws, judgements, teachings and understandings of the world on the bible, never knowing they weren't supposed to take it literally. All the people convicted of crimes, imprisoned or executed, subjected to "healing" and "remedies," denounced as heretics and blasphemers because of the bible. Oopsie!

[ Thanks to a follower for the recommendation. ]

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"Stay away from the church. In the battle over science vs. religion, science offers credible evidence for all the serious claims it makes. The church says, 'oh, it's right here in this book, see? The one written by people who thought the sun was magic?' I for one would like to see some proof that there is a god. And if you say 'a baby's smile' I'm going to kick you right in the stomach." -- Seth MacFarlane
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"Muslims are bound by two choices with no third: Either to benefit from the scientific heritage of mankind or remain ignorant... In order to get rid of the recession they are in, they should only know that there is no harmful knowledge nor beneficial ignorance, and that all evil comes from ignorance and all good comes from knowledge." -- Abdullah al-Qasemi
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Moyers: Do you give people who make this case, that that was the beginning and that there had to be something that provoked the beginning, do you give them an A at least for trying to reconcile faith and reason?
Tyson: I don’t think they’re reconcilable.
Moyers: What do you mean?
Tyson: Well, so let me say that differently. All efforts that have been invested by brilliant people of the past have failed at that exercise. They just fail. And so I don’t, the track record is so poor that going forward, I have essentially zero confidence, near zero confidence, that there will be fruitful things to emerge from the effort to reconcile them.
So, for example, if you knew nothing about science, and you read, say, the Bible, the Old Testament, which in Genesis, is an account of nature, that’s what that is, and I said to you, give me your description of the natural world based only on this, you would say the world was created in six days, and that stars are just little points of light much lesser than the sun. And that in fact, they can fall out of the sky, right, because that’s what happens during the Revelation.
You know, one of the signs that the second coming, is that the stars will fall out of the sky and land on Earth. To even write that means you don’t know what those things are. You have no concept of what the actual universe is. So everybody who tried to make proclamations about the physical universe based on Bible passages got the wrong answer.
So what happened was, when science discovers things, and you want to stay religious, or you want to continue to believe that the Bible is unerring, what you would do is you would say, “Well, let me go back to the Bible and reinterpret it.” Then you’d say things like, “Oh, well they didn’t really mean that literally. They meant that figuratively.”
So, this whole sort of reinterpretation of the, how figurative the poetic passages of the Bible are came after science showed that this is not how things unfolded. And so the educated religious people are perfectly fine with that. It’s the fundamentalists who want to say that the Bible is the literally, literal truth of God, that and want to see the Bible as a science textbook, who are knocking on the science doors of the schools, trying to put that content in the science room. Enlightened religious people are not behaving that way. So saying that science is cool, we’re good with that, and use the Bible for, to get your spiritual enlightenment and your emotional fulfillment.
Moyers: Do you have any sympathy for people who seem to only feel safe in the vastness of the universe you describe in your show if they can infer a personal God who makes it more hospitable to them, who cares for them?
Tyson: In this, what we tell ourselves is a free country, which means you should have freedom of thought, I don't care what you think. I just don't. Go think whatever you want. Go ahead. Think that there is one God, two gods, ten gods, or no gods. That is what it means to live in a free country. The problem arises is if you have a religious philosophy that is not based in objective realities, that you then want to put into the science classroom. Then I am going to stand there and say no I am not going to allow you in the science classroom. I am not telling you what to think. I am just telling you in the science classroom you are not doing science. This is not science. Keep it out. That is when I stand up. Otherwise, go ahead. I am not telling you how to think.

==

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Even the bible says that faith and reason are irreconcilable.

Faith rebukes reason.

Source: twitter.com
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"Science rewards people who disprove it. Religion calls them heretics and, some times kills them. This is why science is better."

Only religious ideas need to be protected with threats. Which is a reliable indicator of truth.

"Science rewards people who disprove it"

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unterwaesche

I see zero difference between calling someone a heretic and calling them a science denier.

The former is denying superstitious, unevidenced nonsense, such as a being who stops the Earth from rotating, who floods the planet drowning all the babies and puppies (but nobody in China, Australia or South America noticed), and who walks on water, kills a tree with a spell, tricks people into murdering it and then comes back to life and flies up into the sky.

The latter is denying reality itself, such as the immutable binary of sex, the shape of the planet, the existence of microscopic contaminants which can cause illness, and all the thousands of principles that put a device in your hand connected to a satellite in space empowering you to tell millions of people that you don't understand how science works, but it's stupid anyway, because something something Fauci something.

"Science denier" is an inaccurate term. Most "science deniers" love the science that's convenient to them, especially their clean water, cross-country flights, iPhones, and not dying at 22 due to an infection from a minor cut. What they deny is science that challenges their assumptions, prejudices and, worse, politics. They're not so much "science deniers" as science hypocrites.

Science has evidence for its claims, its claims are proportionate to the data and evidence, and science can be corrected with better science, more data, more evidence, through the worldwide collaborative scientific endeavour of millions of scientists.

Faith is subject to the whims and intuitions of the believer themselves or absorbed uncritically through the con artist they pay every Sunday to read to them, regularly adapts only through Ad Hoc Rescue, and grants the believer themselves divine authority over their god, deciding its intentions, properties, and what of its scripture is a metaphor and what's not.

Making these complete polar opposites.

You're welcome.

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"Science rewards people who disprove it. Religion calls them heretics and, some times kills them. This is why science is better."

Only religious ideas need to be protected with threats. Which is a reliable indicator of truth.

Whether they were Xians is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is whether they make their scientific discoveries using "faith" (no) or using evidence (yes), and how many of them, knowing how claims are substantiated, proved the god claim (none). If any had, we would be able to easily find it in a journal. Hell, it should be on the news cycle 24/7: "True God Found, Other Religions Collapse"

If anyone should be able to validate a god, you would think a scientist would be in the best position of all. They know about defeasibility, falsifiability, reproducibility, etc, etc. Justifying ideas to further knowledge is their entire mission brief.

And yet...

What you've stated isn't an argument for the validity of Xianity. Or any religious tradition. It's an argument for the inconsistency of humans, the reasons why we don't trust unchecked subjective human perception, which are things we already know, and the exact thing science seeks to solve, avoid and mitigate. It does this by having everyone else disbelieve the claim by default and accept it only to the extent the evidence supports it and the method and results can be reproduced. That's also how you get to be an atheist, by the way.

“It’s not WHAT the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but HOW and WHY he believes it.
His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on EVIDENCE, not on authority or intuition.”
-- Bertrand Russell

No scientist can just shrug and say "I just have faith" when their claim collapses under scrutiny. But that's the bread and butter of religious faith, which is, by definition, unreasonable, since there is no evidence that could convince a believer to abandon their belief, no way to detect an error. And since they can't all be right, most, if not all, religious faiths are in error. Religions promote as a virtue doubling down on faith when faith is not working out as preferred.

That is, religious scientists are inconsistent about how they decide what is true. That people are able to rationalize and compartmentalize inconsistent ways of viewing the world to protect emotionally-derived beliefs isn't remarkable. Rather, it's quite well understood as a family of cognitive biases (motivated reasoning, emotional reasoning, etc).

But that doesn't mean we need to endorse it or give it a free pass.

It doesn't exonerate faith and it doesn't undermine the scientific process.

Indeed, what you've said actually endorses the meme. We have only one understanding of gravity, of flight, of light, of quantum theory, etc. There are thousands of religions. A Xian (for example) scientist is able to participate in one of thousands of fractious, contentious, inconsistent superstitions, but this irrational recreational activity doesn't impede upon the consistency of human knowledge. Just like how fans can argue endlessly and absurdly over Thor's hammer, whether Han shot first, and which football team is the best, to the point of hating each other, yet those same warring tribes must set aside their irrationalities to perform science and produce knowledge that is fit to survive the ravages of scientific competition.

Think about it. People who believe that a magical space ghost made of nothing magicked everything from nothing, drowned all the babies, kittens and puppies in the world, sent two female bears to murder 42 children, birthed itself as its own meat puppet, then tricked humans into murdering it before coming back to life and flying up into the sky... are not barred from helping to put a robot on Mars, satellites in orbit, a phone in your hand, and double the human life expectancy. So long as they follow the rules of doing science. That's pretty remarkable for such a disadvantaged people to be able to contribute so much in spite of their obvious inadequacies. And it's all thanks to leaving their bible at home, not bringing it to the lab.

What is remarkable isn't that there are religious scientists, but how vastly different the demographics of believer vs non-believer are in the field of science compared to in the general population: in science it's something like (at least) 20 believer/80 non-believer. That says more than cherry-picking out any one or two or a handful of believers who have been able to cognitively quarantine their evidence-based profession from their unevidenced, unfalsifiable faith superstition. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing.

P.S. Here's my list.

Enjoy.

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