I was having this argument with this Muslim person i know who kept saying that islam is the true religion and is accurate because there are some parts in the Koran that mention stuff about embryos and astronomy in a way that is scientifically accurate and that this was all written before scientists made said discoveries themselves. What are your thoughts on this?
They love to say stuff like that, but it's simply not true. For starters, remember that Islam began in the 600s. The study of embryology goes back to ancient Egypt, India and Greece, including Hippocrates, he of the medical Hippocratic Oath, and around 1000 years before Islam.
And we've been studying the sky since we could first look up.
With that in mind, whether or not it's "scientifically accurate" is thoroughly unremarkable.
But let's take a look at the Islamic scripture that purports this supposedly previously unknown knowledge.
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O People, if you should be in doubt about the Resurrection, then [consider that] indeed, We created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clinging clot, and then from a lump of flesh, formed and unformed - that We may show you. And We settle in the wombs whom We will for a specified term, then We bring you out as a child, and then [We develop you] that you may reach your [time of] maturity. [The rest of the ayah is not relevant.]
And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators.
It is He who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clinging clot; then He brings you out as a child; then [He develops you] that you reach your [time of] maturity, then [further] that you become elders. And among you is he who is taken in death before [that], so that you reach a specified term; and perhaps you will use reason.
This in no way reflects embryology, except to the scientifically illiterate. There is no mention of the egg. You don't develop as a skeleton and then skin and flesh grows on it. Humans aren't made of dirt or clay, and if this is a metaphor, it is by definition, unscientific. Science is precise. On the other hand, a clot of blood is precise, and it makes no sense to mix a metaphor with a precise biological term... one which is inaccurate anyway.
Ibn Kathir's tafsir (exegesis) is clear:
(It is He, Who has created you from dust, then from a Nutfah then from a clot (a piece of coagulated blood), then brings you forth as an infant, then (makes you grow) to reach the age of full strength, and afterwards to be old.) meaning, He is the One Who Alone, with no partner or associate, causes you to pass through these different stages, and this happens in accordance with His command, will and decree.
He isn't trying to explain this as being metaphorical, he's saying, yep, these are the stages, Allah is the one who makes all these accurate things happen.
But an embryo is not "coagulated blood." And the entire development of the embryo is skimmed in a couple of words, making it useless.
It's far more remarkable what's missing from and inaccurate in the quran, how little Allah seems to know, how much other human cultures studying embryology had already figured out long before the quran was "revealed."
There are literally dozens of ayahs that say stupid things about astronomy, about the stars, the sun, the moon, the shape of the Earth, the sky itself.
Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers
These are described as literal layers. When Muhammad later flies up into heaven on Buraq (the Night Journey), he ascends through the heavens one at a time, like going up the storeys in a building.
Also:
Earth’s atmosphere has five major and several secondary layers. From lowest to highest, the major layers are the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere.
There are five major atmospheric layers, so the notion of this describing the atmosphere is wrong too.
Granting "heavens" as atmospheric layers makes the problem worse, because this means the quran puts the stars inside the Earth's atmosphere, on the "nearest heaven," the troposphere.
Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars
It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.
The stars are set into the underside of the nearest layer of heaven. And were made after the Earth.
And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.
The stars are, again, embedded in the underside of the heavens. And are weapons which will be fired at the devils like projectiles.
[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
The sky is not a real thing, least of all a "ceiling." The Earth is an object in space, with a thin later of atmosphere clinging to its surface. What we perceive as the sky is us looking away from that object into an infinite space.
Also, the quran says the Earth is spread out like a bed. i.e. flat.
[It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.
The quran also seems to suggest that rain is sent down from the heavens/sky, and it's not a natural cycle of evaporation, condensation, precipitation. It rains because there is already water on Earth.
It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne and made subject the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.
This again, seriously misunderstands what the sky is, and it only "makes sense" if the Earth is static and immovable and the sky/heavens are a thing being pulled down by its gravity. And again, as metaphors it's completely worthless to science.
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."
And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
The sun goes into a spring of dark mud. The sun has a stopping place, a resting place. Except, in reality, the sun doesn't go anywhere. It's always day somewhere on Earth, and night is just when we're spinning away from it. Where does it "go"? Where and how does it "stop"?
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
Apparently under Allah's throne, where it lies stretched out on the ground (prostrate) until it's told otherwise. And some day it will rise from its setting place. What is the "science" of this?
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? And We placed within the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with them, and We made therein [mountain] passes [as] roads that they might be guided. And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away. And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.
So much stuff here. The "heavens" are not a thing. The Earth formed out of material that coalesced through gravity. Everything is not made of water - again, metaphors are scientifically useless. Mountains do not stablize the Earth, they're created by tectonic shifts - mountains demonstrate the instability of Earth, which we know as earthquakes. There's no "ceiling" in the sky. The only way the last thing makes sense is if Allah thinks everything is orbiting the Earth, since the sun, moon and everything else, are grouped together as being alike.
Again, let's go to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir to explain this and see if what we think it says is what it means:
Do they not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, i.e. in the beginning they were all one piece, attached to one another and piled up on top of one another, then He separated them from one another, and made the heavens seven and the earth seven, placing the air between the earth and the lowest heaven.
The Earth and heavens were one "piece."
Continuing...
Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from his father from `Ikrimah that Ibn `Abbas was asked; "Did the night come first or the day'' He said, "Do you think that when the heavens and the earth were joined together, there was anything between them except darkness Thus you may know that the night came before the day. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Umar said that a man came to him and questioned him about when the heavens and earth were joined together then they were parted. He said, "Go to that old man (Shaykh) and ask him, then come and tell me what he says to you.'' So he went to Ibn `Abbas and asked him. Ibn `Abbas said: "Yes, the heavens were joined together and it did not rain, and the earth was joined together and nothing grew. When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.'' The man went back to Ibn `Umar and told him what had been said. Ibn `Umar said, "Now I know that Ibn `Abbas has been given knowledge of the Qur'an. He has spoken the truth, and this is how it was.'' Ibn `Umar said: "I did not like the daring attitude of Ibn `Abbas in his Tafsir of the Qur'an, but now I know that he has been given knowledge of the Qur'an.'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said: "The heavens and the earth were attached to one another, then when the heavens were raised up, the earth became separate from them, and this is their parting which was mentioned by Allah in His Book.'' Al-Hasan and Qatadah said, "They were joined together, then they were separated by this air.''
In the real world, the sun existed before the Earth. At no point in the existence of Earth as a recognizable planet was there not stuff with the light of the sun shining on it, and stuff in shadow. Everybody in this story is certain of things that one could only claim to be true if you had no knowledge of how the Earth formed and works.
Continuing...
(And We have placed on the earth firm mountains,) means, mountains which stabilize the earth and keep it steady and lend it weight, lest it should shake with the people, i.e., move and tremble so that they would not be able to stand firm on it -- because it is covered with water, apart from one-quarter of its surface. So the land is exposed to the air and sun, so that its people may see the sky with its dazzling signs and evidence. So Allah says, (lest it should shake with them, ) meaning, so that it will not shake with them.
The mountains prevent the Earth from shaking. Except we know that earthquakes happen where tectonic action occurs. So this is the opposite of the truth.
When the sun is wrapped up [in darkness] And when the stars fall, dispersing, And when the mountains are removed
Apparently, the stars can fall. The mountains can be removed, because they're things placed there to weigh the Earth down ("lend it weight" as Ibn Kathir said above).
What will happen on the Day of Judgement, and that is the rolling up of the Sun `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas: (When the sun is Kuwwirat.) "This means it will be darkened.'' Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas; "It will go away.'' Qatadah said, "Its light will go away.'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "Kuwwirat means it will sink in.'' Abu Salih said, "Kuwwirat means it will be thrown down.'' At-Takwir means to gather one part of something with another part of it (i.e., folding). From it comes the folding of the turban (`Imamah) and the folding of clothes together. Thus, the meaning of Allah's statement, (Kuwwirat) is that part of it will be folded up into another part of it. Then it will be rolled up and thrown away. When this is done to it, its light will go away. Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, (The sun and the moon will be rolled up on the Day of Judgement.) Al-Bukhari was alone in recording this Hadith and this is his wording of it. Dispersing the Stars (And when the stars Inkadarat.) meaning, when they are scattered. This is as Allah says, (And when the stars have fallen and scattered.) (82:2) The basis of the word Inkidar is Insibab, which means to be poured out. Ar-Rabi` bin Anas reported from Abu Al-`Aliyah, who reported from Ubayy bin Ka`b that he said, "Six signs will take place before the Day of Judgement. The people will be in their marketplaces when the sun's light will go away. When they are in that situation, the stars will be scattered. When they are in that situation, the mountains will fall down upon the face of the earth, and the earth will move, quake and be in a state of mixed up confusion. So the Jinns will then flee in fright to the humans and the humans will flee to the Jinns. [Continues...]
The sun and moon will be rolled up, folded up, like the folding of a turban. The sun will be darkened and people will be there to see it. This is amazingly wrong and demonstrates the impression of the sun as a smaller thing. When the sun collapses in 7+ billion years, it will have already first become a red giant and expanded to engulf and destroy Earth.
The tafsir mentions ayah 82.2:
And when the stars fall, scattering,
In the bible, Jesus himself says the same thing. The idea that the stars can fall demonstrates blatant ignorance of what they are. The tafsir then concludes that the mountains will "fall".... somehow, and the Earth will then be unstable due to their collapse - remember, they're "weights" holding the Earth stable.
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I could honestly keep going and going with this. There are many more astronomical problems, and even the ones I've mentioned have more ayahs that reinforce it. On the topic of the flat Earth alone, spread out like a carpet, there's a good dozen or so.
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This is worth considering or posing to any Muslim who wants to pretend that the quran is scientifically accurate. Ask them to identify a single ayah that meets these criteria. If they object to the criteria, ask them why. Why Allah's divine word isn't resilient enough to withstand this examination.
For a statement to be Qur'anic foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:
- It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
- It must be in the Qur'an. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it is not in the Qur'an, because Qur'anic by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Qur'an itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Qur'an.
- It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
- It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
- It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Qur'anic foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.
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The big problem with the quran and its scientific inaccuracy isn't just that what it says is frequently explicitly wrong, but also what it doesn't say. It doesn't give us any new information, such as about bacteria, viruses, the structure of the solar system, or even the other continents. It doesn't use any scientific language or concepts. It doesn't give us any formulas, it doesn't give us any math. You can't start with the quran and discover anything scientifically useful. It doesn't predict or describe anything in the future beyond a desert warlord's limited misunderstanding of the world. All you can do is look back with 20/20 hindsight, squint and pretend it said it the whole time... metaphorically.
What this really means is that the quran is not authoritative. Needing to be "interpreted" makes quranic knowledge subservient to human knowledge and understanding.
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
Interpreting it is forbidden, as it means Muslims are looking to make it work for them, rather than simply doing as it says. The entire notion of interpreting it means it isn't “easy” and "clear" as the quran itself claims to be.
And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?
The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion.
It also means that the "truths," if we must, of the quran are subservient to human science. You must use science as the authority to validate the quran, rather than the other way around.
Of course as we know, any mistakes in the quran obliterates Islam.
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.
Since it does contain much contradiction, given it contradicts reality itself, then Islam is false.
