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Religion is a Mental Illness

@religion-is-a-mental-illness / religion-is-a-mental-illness.tumblr.com

Tribeless. Problematic. Triggering. Faith is a cognitive sickness.
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Okay, but if Jesus isn't real, why do historians believe he is real if the gospels are made up?

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There are two things we need to be careful of: what we mean by "historians" and what we mean by "Jesus."

History is studied based on evidence. There are multiple lines of evidence for someone like Alexander the Great or even Pontius Pilate. For Jesus, there are zero. Jesus never wrote anything. People who supposedly knew him didn't write anything about him. No record keepers - or what we might regard today as journalists - traveled along with him to see what was up with this amazing man who definitely existed.

If a person existed today who could verifiably walk on water, wouldn't journalists and reporters follow that person around trying to get interviews and pictures and record everything they could about what this unique-in-all-of-history person said and did?

The bible says that people came from far and wide to have their illnesses cured. There aren't any records from doctors to indicate anything of the sort occurred. There aren't any records showing chronic leprosy outbreaks suddenly vanishing. We should be able to trace a pathway through the Middle East as he conducted his ministry, a route along which diseases were miraculously eliminated, with unusual levels of health and wellbeing. Even if we can’t find him, we should be able to see the effects of his activities.

Instead, what we have in the bible is stories written decades after by anonymous authors who weren't there, revised, expanded, rewritten and elaborated for 200 years before being canonized. There’s nothing anyone can tell us about Jesus that doesn’t come from the bible.

The only thing we can find in history is people who believed he existed. Even the bible admits this. But this doesn’t get us anywhere. We can also find people in history who believe Slenderman, Paul Bunyan and interstellar aliens existed.

None of the gospels were actually written by anyone named for the books. Believers often claim that they're eyewitness accounts, but we know they're not, and we know that the names given to them are by tradition, not by authorship.

The four canonical gospels were probably written between AD 66 and 110. All four were anonymous (with the modern names added in the 2nd century), almost certainly none were by eyewitnesses, and all are the end-products of long oral and written transmission.

The word “pseudepigrapha“ is a deliberately obscurantist term referring to bible lies. Many of the non-gospel writings, such as the epistles have questionable authorship: a good half of Paul’s epistles are regarded as fraudulent (that is, pseudepigrapha), having been written by other people pretending to be Paul; while other epistles are anonymous, falsely attributed to people who didn’t write them, or ambiguous.

Mark was the first gospel, and wasn't written until at least 30 years after Jesus' death. Believers like to cite writers like Thallos, whose writings were sketchy at best, and Josephus and Tacitus, despite Josephus not even being born until at least four years after Jesus’ supposed death.

Thirty years ago, the Rodney King riots broke out in Los Angeles. Imagine if no record of this event existed until today. Imagine if we relied entirely upon the records of someone born four years after, in 1996, to understand what happened at that time. The problem with citing either Josephus or the gospels themselves is that we know they didn’t get it first-hand. If these writers had sources, we should be getting those sources instead. But we’re not.

We know that the Resurrection story from Mark 16:9 onwards was added on much later by someone else (i.e. it's fraudulent). This isn't even controversial. We also know that Matthew is an attempt to revise and redact Mark and was written even later. In many cases it copies word-for-word what Mark says. Luke is similar. When they're not copying each other verbatim, they're often saying completely contradictory things.

John makes things even worse. The Jesus of John might as well be a completely different person. He's doing different things for different reasons. He isn't the “gentle Jesus, meek and mild” Jesus of Mark, Matthew and Luke, he's bolder and unambiguously divine. Or as one writer put it: "John portrays Jesus as 'a God striding over the face of the earth.'" Just the kind of story you'd write if you were creating propaganda for a new cult.

We know that the nativity story was added at least a hundred years later. We know that the crucifixion story is ahistorical; crucifixions were not carried out that way or for those crimes, and bodies were left up to rot as a warning to others. He would not have been taken down and buried; the Romans would never have cared about Jewish custom. And there are no records of the other men who were supposedly crucified alongside him.

We also know that the depictions of characters such as Pontius Pilate contradict what we know of the real people. And nobody can actually find where Jesus supposedly was or did at any particular time.

We know the Cleansing of the Temple - where Jesus disrupted the moneychangers - is ahistorical. Despite most artwork showing a few dozen people being chased out of a church, the temple itself was multiple times larger than a sports stadium, taking multiple years to finish.

Reconstruction of the temple under Herod began with a massive expansion of the Temple Mount temenos. For example, the Temple Mount complex initially measured 7 hectares (17 acres) in size, but Herod expanded it to 14.4 hectares (36 acres) and so doubled its area.

Because the moneychangers were a necessary part of Jewish worship - pilgrims were expected to bring an animal to sacrifice, but many traveling from afar would need to buy one locally and would only have their own currency - the act itself would have been regarded as an antisemitic scandal, comparable to plastering swastikas all over your local sports stadium, and reverberating throughout the Jewish community. It's written about nowhere in Jewish records. And considering it was supposedly perpetrated by a Jewish man, it’s clear the author had no idea of the significance of these practices.

None of this constitutes "history." It's not just that the gospels are explicitly not historical, it's that the history we do know about doesn't line up with what the bible says.

This is historical Neil Patrick Harris.

This is Harold and Kumar (H&K) Neil Patrick Harris.

Historical NPH is a gay man. H&K NPH is a drugged-out, heterosexual creep. It’s entirely possible that Historical NPH has gone to White Castle at some point in time. Does that make H&K NPH real? No. The existence of Historical NPH goes no way towards making H&K NPH real. 

Likewise, even if anyone could find a Historical Yeshua - and nobody can - we can concede the existence of some Jewish apocalypse preacher roaming around the countryside without any anxiety or pain. His existence goes nowhere towards substantiating the claims of the bible.

The Jesus of the bible was specific. He did specific acts, said specific things. Although even the bible itself is contradictory about what those things are. For example, the bible gives two contradictory genealogies leading from Adam - who we know to be fictional anyway - through to Jesus. As mentioned, we know that the Pilate of the bible is a fictional version of real-world Pilate, in the same way as H&K NPH.

Historical fiction is a genre of writing. “Gone With the Wind” is set against the backdrop of the American Civil War and Reconstruction. Didn’t happen. The film Contact depicts then-US President Bill Clinton telling us about alien contact. Didn’t happen.

We know that it’s only recently that writings in the “biography” genre are intended to be historically accurate. Prior to only a couple of hundred years ago, “biography” referred to a class of writings that were intended to be inspirational or to promote admiration for the subject, not tell an unbiased, accurate account of their life. In the case of Xianity, “hagiography” refers to this kind of propaganda intended to inspire people to convert.

The bible not being a historical document is even stated so at times by the authors. Paul openly states that he lies - he becomes like one of whomever he wants to convince. The author of John, in a section literally calledThe Purpose of John’s Gospel,” claims to have written it so “that you may believe,” not to state reliably what happened. The author of Luke begins by saying that there are a lot of stories about what went on in those days, and that he’s going to provide the true account. And then proceeds to mostly regurgitate Mark.

The gospels aren’t even written like eyewitness accounts, being consistently in the third-person no matter who is around, including when Jesus is alone by himself, when Jesus is alone with Pilate, or alone with the Devil. Nor are they written like historical record, since they don’t provide the account of where this information came from, who told who, the records the author used to construct this history. They’re all written like fictional narratives. It’s weird believers don’t notice this.

The argument around a historical, real-world counterpart to the character in the bible is nothing but a distraction. Believers propose a divine, magical man, literally the son of a god, but when pressed on it instead try to justify it by the mere existence of some unremarkable Jewish man. It’s what’s called “playing tennis without a net.” When the net is imaginary, every ball you serve, no matter how weak, goes over it.

Any amount of historicity in the bible - and there isn’t as much as most believers think - is irrelevant.

Believers must find their magical, water-walking, water-to-wine-making, demons-in-pigs, fig-tree-cursing, flying-into-the-sky Jesus. The one the bible actually describes.

But first, they should actually try to write down a coherent sequence of events of his life using all the gospels, without leaving anything out. When they figure out that it’s not possible to form a coherent history of Jesus’ life, they should reconsider why they thought any of it was historical in the first place.

Until they can and do, we don’t need to put much thought into storybook characters. Much less worship them.

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“No matter how hard even the most dedicated theologian may try, the extraordinary beliefs held by the religious cannot be validated, and the very existence of their gods, angels, demons, miracles, etc., cannot be proven.
Christianity has even failed to prove the historicity of its central character, Jesus Christ, nor the existence of his ragtag band of followers that we know as "Apostles."
It's not like they haven't had enough time.”
-- Al Stephanelli

Absence of evidence might not be evidence of absence, but after 2000 years we’re entitled to conclude that the likelihood of the Jesus story being true is comparable to the likelihood Lord of the Rings is true.

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“That Matthew is essentially a redaction of Mark is almost universally agreed. He borrows extensively from Mark (nearly the whole narrative), and frequently duplicates his material verbatim. Matthew then added a ridiculous Nativity Narrative (which no reasonable historian should regard as anything but fiction) and a brief but vague resurrection-appearance narrative (to fix what he may have regarded as the unsatisfying ending of Mark), which most historians also doubt is historical, and then revised the material in between, often altering or expanding on the stories Mark invented, occasionally inventing new ones and adding large sections attributing new teachings to Jesus.”
-- Richard Carrier, “On the Historicity of Jesus”
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"On the Cleansing of the Temple: Of course, that scene is hardly believable: the temple grounds were enormous, occupying many acres (the temple as a whole occupied nearly forty acres, and a large portion of that, at least ten acres, was devoted to public space), extensively populated (there would have been _hundreds_ of merchants and moneychangers there), and heavily guarded by an armed force deployed to prevent just this sort of thing. They would have *killed Jesus on the spot*. So the story is obviously fiction even on that point alone.”
-- Richard Carrier, “On the Historicity of Jesus”

Even the mundane, non-magical claims in the bible are wrong. To get even the basics wrong but still insist that the extraordinary, supernatural claims are true is delusional.

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“The New Testament underwent a considerable amount of editing, interpolation and revising over the course of its first two centuries...
This is not something to sweep under the rug. It makes a real difference in how we estimate probabilities.
Unlike most other questions in history, the evidence for Jesus is among the most compromised bodies of evidence in the whole of ancient history.”
-- Richard Carrier
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Is there any evidence of Jesus having existed outside the bible?

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There is no evidence the character described in the bible existed in the real world. Nobody wrote about him, nobody could find him, nobody noticed him during his supposed lifetime; one of the most commonly cited writers, Josephus, wasn't even born until several years after the supposed crucifixion/resurrection.

I would argue that it's not even possible for there to be evidence for the existence of this character in the real world, given both the magical claims, and the impossibility of constructing a coherent, reliable profile of the character.

We need not get into the weeds of the inconsistencies between the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, because the Jesus of the Gospel of John comes off as a completely different person than the Jesus of the other three Gospels.

The key moments in his life are known fabrications - birth, ministry, execution and resurrection - many of them invented a hundred years or more after the fact. This isn't even a secret or controversial.

There may well be evidence of one or more Jewish preachers roaming around the countryside, but that's no more evidence for the Jesus of the bible than the crazy person with the tinfoil hat ranting about aliens and secret agencies on the corner is evidence that the Men in Black organization of the movies exists in the real world.

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Anonymous asked:

Why do anti-theists insist that Jesus wasn't a real person? The historical documentation for this random street preacher/cult leader is much better than it was for, say, Leif Erikson, so why do anti-theists insist that Yeshua Nazarene didn't exist, as opposed to his resurrection being a collective hallucination experienced by his grieving followers that then got garbled by the time it was recorded 80 years later?

Apparently you've been spamming my Inbox, and I've been responding in reverse order.

Since I've already covered it, all I need to post is this.

You have to justify the character depicted in the bible, not some rando you've nominated in the real world. You haven't, and you can't, since the bible is ahistorical and contradicts itself.

You can't even tell us anything concrete about this Yeshua fellow anyway, so the claim that "historical documentation... is much better" is delusional or dishonest. While being completely irrelevant to the fictional character in the bible.

Historical Jesus ≠ Bible Jesus. Just as Real NPH ≠ H&K NPH.

The only thing you said that's true is the last part. Except it's more likely an urban legend, not a hallucination. None of the characters involved in it is any more historical than Jesus himself, since again, they only appear in the bible (e.g. how and when did Judas die?).

It's curious that you're so fixated on this, rather than on the truth of the bible. Why aren’t you proving that Jesus cast out devils? Or that he walked on water? Or that he fed thousands from a few scraps of food? What does Alexander have to do with the divinity of Jesus and the (purported) promise of salvation and eternal life?

Why are you aiming so low, at the trivial and the unremarkable? It’s like you’ve got one of the famous unsolvable equations up on a board, and you’re dicking around showing me what a plus sign means. What does any of this have to do with the truth of Xianity, of a creator god and his son/self whose blood is a pathway to eternal life in paradise?

It just kind of seems like it isn't true. And if the bible isn't true, then Xianity is false.

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Anonymous asked:

Why do you continually insist that a particular random street preacher didn't exist when you have no interest in archeology or knowledge of how historical documentation works before the age of the printing press?

Two reasons:

Firstly, you can't tell me anything about him that isn't in the bible, a book with a man made from dirt, a woman made from a rib, a magical fruit, a talking donkey, a talking snake, a magical zoo boat, demons, witches and other literal magic, and justifies them with absolutely nothing. Jesus is said to have been seen by over 500 people after his death... but can't name them, say what they saw, how they knew what it was, and all of them were believers anyway.

This is literally the entirety of what it says:

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

This is not how history works.

The bible is not a historical document, which is even stated so at times by the authors. Paul, for example, openly states that he lies - he becomes like one of whomever he wants to convince. The author of John, in a section literally calledThe Purpose of John’s Gospel,” claims to have written it so "that you may believe," not to state reliably what happened.

But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

Secondly, I can concede some Jewish preacher roaming about the region roaming about the land preaching about one thing or another without any discomfort. Hell, spend the day walking around the streets of any decently sized city and you'll find dozens of street preachers doing exactly that. Exactly the same thing.

But that's not what you're supposed to be doing, is it? The bible is specific about what it says happens. What you're doing is intellectually dishonest. It's called "playing tennis without a net."

This one relates to the existence of a god, but it's the same principle. You're aiming to get the ball over a net on the far left. Instead of "Timeless first mover" it's labelled "particular random street preacher." You're welcome to get your ball over that net, but you're supposed to be getting it over the one at the far right end.

You need to show that your Jesus/Yeshua existed as described in the bible, in the real world. That he defied physics, history, medicine and death, as described in the bible.

Neil Patrick Harris appears in "Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle," drugged out of his brain and looking for "poontang" (his word). H&K Neil Patrick Harris is a fictional version of the real Neil Patrick Harris. H&K NPH doesn't exist, and never did those things. Pointing to a real world Yeshua-equivalent - and none of you can actually find him, let's be clear about that - does nothing, literally nothing, to substantiate the specific claims in the bible. We know NPH exists, so the logic you're using actually means that H&K is more historical than the bible.

It's up to you to prove your thing. The whole thing, as described. And I know you can't. Because it's full of holes, contradictory and claims things that never happened. The crucifixion, for example, is historically inaccurate, and the crucified were left up to rot as a warning.

“When we crucify criminals the most frequented roads are chosen, where the greatest number of people can look and be seized by this fear. For every punishment has less to do with the offence than with the example.”
– Quintilian, Declamations, 274.13, English translation in Quintilian: The Lesser Declamations, 2 vols; ed. and trans. D. R. Shackleton Bailey; Loeb Classical Library (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 2006), 1:259.

The Romans would never have been concerned with Jewish sensibilities, and Jesus’ carcass would have rotted on the crucifix just like those of everyone who was ever crucified. The entire entombment is ahistorical.

The Cleansing of the Temple violated an important rite of Jewish worship - it allowed pilgrims traveling from afar to buy an animal locally for sacrifice from their own currency, rather than having to drag one all the way from where they came - and was profoundly antisemitic, and would have been as scandalous among the Jews of the time as Harvey Weinstein or Jan 6. And yet it's written nowhere else. No one else noticed this gross, public - and let’s not forget, theatrical - violation of Jewish practices; essentially a hate crime.

Nobody ever heard of or wrote about the bible character while he was alive. And that's the problem you have to solve, not "particular random street preacher."

It's funny how much we do know about everything else prior to the printing press, though, as well as how we came to know it and what evidence we have for it.

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Even if they found irrefutable proof of the trivial and uncontroversial existence of a real Jewish preacher named Yeshua - and they haven't - this covers none of the distance to virgin-birth, son-of-a-god, god-made-flesh, walk-on-water, magic-healing, water-into-wine, loaves-and-fishes, table-flipping, fig-tree-cursing, resurrecting, flying-into-the-sky, bible-Jesus.

--

Historical Mark Twain | 24th Century Spaceship Mark Twain

Historical Great Dane | Talking, Crime-Solving Great Dane

Source: twitter.com
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Hello, I've got a doubt- Did the figure of Jesus really exist (a laic version without all that religious idiocies) and after his death he was mythologized, or was he created from scratch or even better, people took a cue from other cultures? Just genuinely curious. Thanks in advance and sorry for my English, it's not my mother tongue

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Yes?

...

All of the above?

...

So, what we're talking about is a Historical Jesus, as opposed to Bible Jesus.

We can be certain that Bible Jesus is a falsehood, for a number of reasons, including knowing that stories such as the resurrection were added later by someone else; that people we know to have existed are depicted inaccurately compared to how they're known to have been; the Jesus character is portrayed significantly differently across the Gospels, bordering on a different character altogether; that the Gospels are either quoting each other verbatim or else contradict each other in irresolvable ways; that these stories didn't emerge until decades later; the persistent third-person perspective of nobody who was there; the stories contain many historical inaccuracies; many of the stories don't claim to even be eyewitness accounts or outright say that they're not; it's already known that the biography genre of the era was not focused on accuracy anyway, but veneration; and that the magic tricks of this character are simultaneously in violation of reality and completely petty and small for a divine son of god.

Historical Jesus is another matter.

There seems to be a general sentiment among bible scholars, even the non-believers, that calling Historical Jesus an outright myth is a fringe opinion, that Historical Jesus certainly existed in some form.

The problem is that none of the scholars can really agree on much of anything about this person. They can't really agree on what he was like, what he did, where he went, what he thought or what he taught. The two events they appear to be most confident about are his baptism and execution (which doesn't mean resurrection). Except that they can't really agree on those either, such as why he was executed.

It's honestly all very tiresome.

In science, it's sometimes the case that you discover that there's something there before you discover what it is. Dark matter, neutrons, etc. But there's a model for how it functions, and there's a conceptual way to detect and measure it, even if a way to do so in reality doesn't exist yet.

That isn't the case here. Imagine a small room packed full of people and all of them are looking around the room, nodding their heads, but saying different words in different languages. They're all certain and all in agreement, but all about different things. This is how the historical search for Jesus appears to me.

As far as Xianity is concerned, it seems like Bible Jesus was not constructed entirely from scratch. There was at least some form of local legend, maybe a real person(s) as the inspiration. There is undoubtedly elements of the bible character which have been lifted or inspired by other cultures, myths and traditions that have been grafted on, either because the legends evolved or the church sought to bolster their Mary Sue. But there's also elements of the character which have been written specifically to try and meet the stuff in the Old Testament that they had access to.

My perspective is basically that Bible Jesus is false. I reject the character outright. This character, as described and depicted, never existed and never did the things the book says he did.

It's also that the/any real-world person behind the bible character is both more interesting and more irrelevant. As a human person, he would be more interesting to learn about and understand, without the bullshit mythology and magic of his bible/fictional counterpart. But also irrelevant because he's not the one Xians are trying to ram down our throats.

I'm content to leave the historians to their attempts to find him or agree about anything significant about him. If they ever do, I'd be interested in hearing his story; until they do, I'm not especially interested in their vague hypotheses or attempts to conjure him from inductive reasoning, rather than verifiability.

Suffice to say, I won't be holding my breath.

And none of it makes the bible true.

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Currently trying to get my mom off my back about religion. But, recently she's showed me some things, and I'm still having doubts about whether I should be a Christian, or Agnostic. Is the bible historically accurate? Like they have sites, and things that show people actually existed. But I see other people point out how the bible isn't historically accurate. I am confusion.

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No, it’s not historically accurate. There are some real places and people described in it, but that doesn’t make it accurate.

I’m going to skip over the fact that Genesis is historically inaccurate. Everything we understand about the world contradicts special creation, a worldwide flood, and people living to 900+ years. Instead, I’ll give you a few simple examples that are based on history, rather than science that she might reject and/or not understand.

1. We know the Exodus never occurred. If about two million people (Exodus 12:37: ”about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children” if we grant each man, on average, a wife and one child) migrated from Egypt to Israel, it should have been noticed. Egypt’s economy should have been decimated by this huge manual labor force leaving. There should have been a record of all the dead firstborn. There should have been a huge cultural shift in Egypt as a result of both. There should be traces of this huge migration throughout the region. There should be stories of two million people wandering around lost in the 429km between Cairo and Jerusalem - that you can traverse on foot in two weeks - for 40 years. One estimate suggests that if they walked ten-abreast, with comfortable distancing between each row, complete with animals, etc, the parade should have reached half the distance of the direct route. That is, by the time the last ones left, the first ones should have reached the halfway point.

Instead, there is nothing. No physical evidence, no local tales. Jewish scholars recognize this as myth.

2. In the “Cleansing of the Temple,” Jesus goes all rampagey through the temple, disrupting the money changers. This is a story that could only have been written by someone who didn’t know anything about Jewish worship practices.

Jewish tradition held that you were to make a sacrifice at the temple. Pilgrims would travel from afar, but it was impractical to drag a sacrificial animal with them the whole way. Instead, they’d bring their money and buy one locally to be sacrificed. As any traveller knows, money in one location can be different from that in another. And that’s what the money changers were there for. To exchange foreign currency for local currency, so that pilgrims could buy an animal for their offering. The money changers were absolutely crucial to Jewish worship.

Jesus should certainly have known this, if he existed at all. This supposed “anti-capitalist” gesture would actually be regarded as one of the most anti-Semitic scandals for decades to have reverberated through Jewish culture. But, again, nothing.

Only someone who didn’t understand how all this worked would invent such a story.

3. Crucifixions weren’t conducted in the manner described. The Romans only crucified the absolute worst criminals. As far as the Romans were concerned, he was a crackpot blasphemer, which was not a crime that earned crucifixion. Even if we accept that the Romans were scared of Jesus, he was said to have been crucified alongside two men who were merely thieves. And who were, conveniently, unidentified. Thieves would not have been crucified. So, that’s nonsensical in itself.

Even if we leave that aside, the Romans left the dead bodies strung up to act as a warning and deterrent to others.

“When we crucify criminals the most frequented roads are chosen, where the greatest number of people can look and be seized by this fear. For every punishment has less to do with the offence than with the example.”
- Quintilian (first-century Roman rhetorician)

If he’d been crucified, Jesus would never have had a tomb in which to kick back for a day and a half. The Romans wouldn’t have given a shit about Jewish sensibilities, and Jesus would have decomposed on the cross where he was nailed, as a warning to others.

To say nothing of the in-story inconsistencies of how many of who went where, when, and what they saw, which is irreconcilable from one Gospel to the next. And that the Gospel of Mark ended (Mark 16:8) with the women running away when they saw the empty tomb; Jesus is never actually seen.

“Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.” - Mark 16:8

Everything beyond this point in Mark is an addendum a forgery from a later author. And Matthew and Luke, which “borrow” from Mark, simply absorb and replicate this retcon, as if it was always there.

Bonus: There’s tons of lots of little things. According to the bible:

  • The first ever rainbow didn’t occur until after the worldwide flood, so there was no water cycle for all that time.
  • Fictional versions of actual people such as Herod and Pilate; actual historical records describe them very differently than their scriptural fictional counterparts. Herod even died before Jesus’ supposed birth.
  • Every human spoke the same language, until the Tower of Babel episode.
  • Literal giants (Nephilium) existed.
  • The Sun and the Moon stopped moving for an entire day to allow Joshua to finish his killing.
  • Dragons exist.

You may enjoy some books by David Fitzgerald, Michael Paulkovich or Richard Carrier.

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There’s bigger problems though.

Any amount of historical accuracy is not the problem. Any number of “hits” doesn’t address the plethora of “misses.” The problem is how a book that cannot get basic human events correct could be regarded as reliably conveying an accurate understanding of the celestial creator and ruler of the entire universe. Or that it exists at all. Defending the bible on the basis of translation errors, oral history, metaphors or pretty any other reason casts a shadow over how valid the literally supernatural notions are. Why would we trust a map that has all the landmarks on it in the correct places, but all the roads are wrong? Or vice versa?

Worse than all of this is why is the bible even relevant at all? Why should we care what it says? Isn’t this just arguing about who can and can’t pick up Thor’s hammer?

Even if James Cameron had avoided all the inaccuracies in Titanic, this still doesn’t mean Jack and Rose existed and sailed on it.

Historical stories can have fictional characters. Take Forrest Gump or Gone With The Wind. Xtianity doesn’t live or die by whether or not so-and-so was Pharaoh of Egypt, or such-and-such was Emperor of Rome. It doesn’t even live or die based on whether a man named Yeshua existed and traveled around preaching love, division and killing pigs. We can concede that such a man may have existed without any pain. Even though there’s no reason to think such a man did exist, beyond a composite of the Jewish prophets roaming around at the time.

What matters is whether we have any reason to think he was literally magical. Or “divine” if you prefer. If he wasn’t, then Xtianity is false.

We don’t have to prove that he wasn’t, but if there’s no evidence to support this requirement, then we don’t have to worry about Xtianity, let alone how historically accurate the bible is or is not.

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What’s most interesting about this line of argument is what it reveals about the believer: they don’t believe in their god. They believe in their bible as primary, not their god. They believe their bible, the bible says the god exists, therefore the god exists. The bible bootstraps the entire process.

“Weird how no one ever hears from Jesus before they hear about Jesus.” - MrOzAtheist

The other option is that they believe in their god, which can be verified without the bible, and therefore they believe in the bible. That is, you can start with the god as primary, then refer to the bible and verify, yes this is the same guy.

But as far as I can tell, almost none of them seem to believe in their god as primary. If they did, they wouldn’t spend so much time fixating on the bible.

♬ I know the Good Book’s good because the Good Book says it’s good. ♪ - Tim Minchin

We don’t have to “believe” in evolution solely due to On the Origin of Species. We can - and do - ignore Charles Darwin’s book entirely, and still understand evolution. Other scientists around the world and throughout history had previously noticed this phenomenon as well.

In the case of the bible, they seem to have placed their “faith” in these unreliable humans, who got history and science wrong, who claim that a god exists and that they’ve captured “god’s word.” Aren’t all the attributes and qualities and properties their god supposedly possesses only supplied by the bible? When you’re told “god is love,” isn’t this only because the bible says so? Isn’t literally everything about this god ultimately defended by citing a bible verse?

I think that would be a fascinating question to ask her: does she believe in the bible OR does she believe in god. Which one is the starting point for belief in the other? I think, like many, she only believes in the bible, which is where she finds her god, which then authenticates the bible, in nice circular affirming-the-consequent “logic.”

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whether I should be a Christian, or Agnostic.

You don’t have to “be” anything. You either believe a thing or you don’t. Decide that first. If you had to make a list of all the things you believe exist, are you willing to put “a god/gods” onto that list? This isn’t a question about gods, and whether or not they exist, whether or not we can know they exist... it’s a question about you. If you’re not willing to write “a god or gods” as a positive belief on your list, then I’d call you an atheist; a belief in a god or gods is not a thing you possess.

Agnostic isn’t a middle-ground between belief and non-belief. Agnostic is an adjective, not a noun, and relates to knowledge, not belief.

An agnostic atheist doesn’t believe (atheist) a god exists, but doesn’t claim to know (agnostic).

A gnostic atheist doesn’t believe a god exists and claims to know one does not.

Ditto theism. An agnostic theist believes a god exists, but doesn’t claim to know for sure, or claim that it’s even knowable at all. A ghostic theist believes and claims to know that their god exists.

Figure out what you believe and what you don’t believe. The rest is just labels. They’re not an identity to “be”.

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You find the same basic story in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Sometimes, within the basic story, you have exact accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. There are verbatim agreements: you’ll have the same story, word-for-word agreement.
The only explanation as to why you can have this word- for-word agreement, in the opinion of most scholars, is that one of these Gospels is being used as a source for the other two. In other words, there must be copying going on.
I sometimes have difficulty convincing my students that if you have three accounts of the same event that are in the same words, somebody has to be copying somebody else.
The way I try to convince these 19- and 20-year- olds of his is, I do this little exercise where I come into class a couple of minutes late to make sure everybody’s there; I fiddle around in front of the class; I turn on the overhead projector; I put down my briefcase; I roll up my sleeves; and I do a few other things.
Then I ask everybody in the class to write down everything they’ve seen me do in the last three minutes. The students, all 400 of them, write down what they’ve just seen me do.
Then, I collect four of the papers and say, “Now, I want you all to do a synoptic comparison. I’m going to read what each of these sources has to say, and I want to know whether you have a single sentence that is exactly like someone else’s.”
In all of my years of doing this—15, 16 years of doing this—I’ve never had anybody with two sentences exactly the same.
So I ask my students, “What would you think would happen if I took up two of these pieces of paper and I had two paragraphs that were verbatim, the same, exactly alike?”
I typically get the answer, “Well, somebody copied off from someone else.” Exactly, somebody copied from someone else.
Then I will ask, “Now imagine we didn’t do the writing part of this exercise today. Suppose we waited 30 or 40 years, and, instead of asking you to write down what happened that day in class, I asked friends of yours that you had told about what had happened in class. If I then got two accounts that were exactly the same, what would you assume had happened?”
There’s always some wise guy in the back row that raises his hand and says, “It’s a miracle.” Right. Well, those are the two options, actually: it’s either a miracle, or else somebody’s copying somebody else.
What If It’s a Miracle?
If you explain the similarities on the basis of a miracle, then you have trouble explaining the discrepancies.
People don’t typically notice the discrepancies among the Gospels because of the way they are read. The way people read the Gospels is they read Matthew, it’s about the life and death of Jesus; then they read Mark, and it sounds a lot like Matthew sounded; then they read Luke, and that sounds a lot like Matthew and Mark sounded.
When you read them this way, vertically, one at a time, they all sound very much alike. Yet when you read them horizontally— one story in Matthew, then the same story in Mark, and the same story in Luke—you begin to notice discrepancies that are very hard to reconcile with one another.
What scholars think today is that Mark was the first Gospel written, and that Matthew and Luke both had access to Mark, and used Mark as one of their sources. Matthew and Luke had other sources available to them as well.
[..]
The Gospel of John does not contain most of the stories found in the synoptic Gospels. For example, in John there’s no account of Jesus actually being baptized. There’s no account of his birth either. There’s no account of him going to the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. Jesus never tells a parable in the Gospel of John. Jesus never casts out a demon in the Gospel of John. Jesus does not go up to the Mount of Transfiguration in the Gospel of John. Jesus does not have his last supper, in which he gives out the bread and the wine and says, “This is my body, this is my blood,” in the Gospel of John. Jesus is not put on trial before the Jewish Sanhedrin in the Gospel of John.
There are wide-ranging differences where John doesn’t have the same stories as the synoptics. John has a different set of stories; it has a different set of miracles, including the first miracle in the Gospel of John where Jesus turns the water into wine. John has many dialogues betweenJesus and someone else that are found only in John.
For example, there is Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus in chapter 3, or with the Samaritan women in chapter 4. Many of Jesus’ sayings are found in John, only in John.
The term “Gospel” comes from the Old English word for “good news.” These books do not claim to be objective histories; they claim to be proclamations of good news. In other words, these books are not historically accurate accounts of things that Jesus said and did. These are books that are proclaiming information about Jesus that is meant to provide information needed for salvation. These books are the good news of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Most Xtians don’t seem to know that the “bio” genre as accurate historical record is only a recent phenomenon of the last couple of hundred years. The historical purpose of biographies was to provide stories and legends to create inspirational characters, not to verifiably document the subject. This makes sense when you notice that the bible is written in the third person, and includes stories when he was alone or with “Satan.”

“Jesus” is a historical figure in the same way Odysseus and Paul Bunyan are historical figures, and Slender Man and the Hanako-san will be in the future. 

The bible is a sales brochure for an imaginary product. Like an ad for a time-share that claims you won’t regret it.

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