@religion-is-a-mental-illness / religion-is-a-mental-illness.tumblr.com
"This is Jimmy. He loves you very, very much. and he wants to havea relationship with you. But Jimmy doesn't want to force you to love him, that's why he hides so you can figure he's there, by making the right guesses. And if you don't figure out he's there, you'll be separated from him, for ever, in everlasting suffering."
This is what you sound like when you describe your vile god.
WORDS THAT CHRISTIANS MISUSE
Study: What most Christians call "Bible study" is actually "Bible worship."
Truth: Truth is the conformity with fact or reality. Truth is dictated by supporting evidence, not mere claims. Simply claiming that something, or someone, is the "truth" is a misuse of the word.
Morality: Morality is the act of doing what causes the least amount of harm to others. Christians say that morality is dictated by God but the act of doing what one demands is the definition of submission, not morality.
Adultery: Jesus says that lust is adultery in Matthew 5:28. The word adultery means having sex with a person who is married to another. The word lust means to have sexual desires. Having the desire to do something is not the same as doing something.
Free Will: What Christians commonly call "freewill" is actually just "will." In the Bible God only gave us the ability to choose what we want to do (will), but not the freedom to act upon those choices. As it is told, we are required to do as God commands or we will be subject to an eternity of torment.
Love: Love is an intense affection for someone or something. Calling God "love" does not mean his actions automatically fit such a definition. Just as calling a pig an "airplane" does not mean it suddenly can fly. God doesn't even fit the definition of love given by Paul in 1 Cor. 13:4-8.
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But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
If you're already guilty, might as well actually do it...
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Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
"Lord" is the exact opposite of love.
Sexual themes
Is there free will in heaven? If so, does that mean there's sin in heaven? Lucifer sinned in heaven (pride), so apparently heaven isn't inherently sinless. But if there's sin, how do you get forgiveness? Why would you bother, since you're already in heaven? What happens if you don't seek forgiveness? What happens to the person(s) you may have sinned against? Their heavenly vacation has been spoiled.
If there's not sin in heaven, that means we're there (eventually) with our same souls and our same bodies, but no free will? From which part of of body or our soul was that removed? And does that mean we're just mindless automatons wandering around heaven thinking only what god wants us to think?
I suspect some Xians may say you retain the ability to sin in heaven, but lack all desire to do so. But desire isn't a prerequisite for sin. People sin without knowledge or desire to do so all the time.
All reasonable questions. There are so many problems with religious thought, and particularly the mythical afterlife, when you actually seriously contemplate the claims.
Do dogs go to Heaven? Only pets, not wild animals? If only humans go to Heaven, how far back? Homo erectus? Australopithecus? Only people who lived after Jesus? Not Abraham, Moses or Elijah, then. Which “you” will be in Heaven? Senile you with dementia? Midlife-crisis you?
-- Richard Dawkins
Of course whenever anyone claims to have answers to any of these questions, we must recognize that not only do they not, they cannot. No matter how confident they are in their belief, no matter what anecdotes they might tell, no matter what scripture they cite, they cannot know it.
I think it's unavoidable that you can either believe these things or you can understand them. You can't do both. To understand means realizing how bizarre and nonsensical the whole thing is. To believe means keeping your intellectual distance, not looking too closely, and certainly not thinking about it too deeply.
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
Don't think too hard, least of all about things of which god or Jesus would disapprove.
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind, The Sovereign of mankind. The God of mankind From the evil of the retreating whisperer - Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind - From among the jinn and mankind."
Doubts are evil, the whispers of the devil. Silence them.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Unquestioning faith is a virtue.
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah may peace be upon him) observed:
The Satan comes to everyone. of you and says: Who created this and that? till he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in Allah and keep away (from such idle thoughts).
Questions are of the devil.
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
Faith is blind.
It was narrated that Abu Hurairah said:
"The Messenger of Allah said: 'Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, has forgiven my Ummah for what is whispered to them or what enters their minds, so long as they do not act upon it or speak of it.'"
Thoughtcrimes are forgiven only if you silence them.
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Accept people whose faith is weak, shun those who doubt.
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah may peace be upon him) observed:
The Satan comes to everyone of you and says: Who created this and that? till he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in Allah and keep away (from such idle thoughts).
Anyone who tries to use basic logic on you is of Satan.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Unquestioning belief; don't think for yourself.
Believers are not encouraged to think, they're encouraged to limit their thinking at the threat of social ostracism and existential peril. Their religion makes ignorance and incuriosity a virtue.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then from whence comes evil?"
Theodicies are developed to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil, thus resolving the issue of the problem of evil.
In science, when an idea is falsified, it's either thrown out, or withdrawn and revised. In theology, you invent an entire bogus domain to pretend it's still true. Theodicy is that domain. The entire reason it exists at all is because the Problem of Evil shows the god claim doesn't work, but they won't admit it.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Follow up:
EVERYTHING WE THINK OF AS THE SOUL HAS PHYSICAL CAUSES
The sciences of neurology and neuropsychology are in their infancy. But they are advancing by astonishing leaps and bounds, even as we speak. And what they are finding -- consistently. thoroughly, across the board -- is that. whatever consciousness is, it is inextricably linked to the brain.
Everything we think of as the soul -- consciousness, identity, character, free will -- all of that is powerfully affected by physical changes to the brain and body. Changes in the brain result in changes in consciousness... sometimes so drastically. they make a personality unrecognizable. Changes in consciousness can be seen. with magnetic resonance imagery, as changes in the brain. Illness, injury, drugs and medicines, sleep deprivation, etc... all of these can make changes to the supposed ‘soul,’ both subtle and dramatic. And death, of course, is a physical change that renders a person's personality and character, not only unrecognizable, but non-existent.
So the obvious conclusion is that consciousness and identity, character and free will, are products of the brain and the body. They're biological processes, governed by laws of physical cause and effect. With any other phenomenon, if we can show that physical forces and actions produce observable effects, we think of that as a physical phenomenon. Why should the 'soul' be any different?
In short: Souls don't exist!
Written by: Greta Christina
You are not in your body, you are your body. And there’s no room for a “soul.”
“God gave you free will so that you have the choice to either worship him or go to hell.”
-- Ricky Gervais
Free will enables me to change my mind when I have a good reason to. If a god exists and has free will but doesn’t give me a reason, then it’s comfortable with my conclusion. If it won’t, then it it has no recourse. If it can’t or doesn’t know to, then it’s not a god.
The article goes on to point out a number of bible verses that seem to contradict that notion as well as a couple of the aforementioned arguments but one I'm surprised to never see anyone bring up is: if god already knows whether or not were gonna follow his "rules" and either way were still following his "plan" then why impose rules in the first place?
[cont'd] I still don't find Abrahamic religions to be particularly believable for a number of reasons but I'd say this at least gives them a lot more internal consistency
The Abrahamic god was created to supplant polytheistic religions and their various gods, all of whom had unique interests or quirks or tendencies. The competing interests of those various gods could explain the unpredictability of the world. You pray to the goddess of the harvest for rain for your crops, but she's at war with the god of the sun, so whether your crops will grow or shrivel in a drought depends on the fates of the gods, none of whom was omni in nature, or singularly held power.
Monotheism consolidated these gods down into a single god, so that there is a single word of god, single doctrine, rather than the mishmash of devotees of the sun god, the war god, the harvest god, etc, etc, all with their own practices. Abrahamism attempts to control everyone consistently, and therefore makes one god responsible for all of it, made "omni" by granting it all the powers and qualities of all the gods combined.
The problem is that the world is not consistent, and the cracks in this mythology show much more readily. Especially around its omni-ness. The polytheistic pantheons had an excuse: all the various gods had domain over only whatever they had domain over. They were one of many. The contentions and relationships and drama between the gods may give you some rain but not enough for your crops to survive.
But a monotheistic god has domain over everything. It is solely responsible. If you don't get enough rain, it's because your omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnitemporal god somehow doesn't want you to, doesn't know yo need it, or can't give it to you.
Not being omni does make the story more internally consistent. But it also makes randomness more powerful than the deity, and undercuts the entire point of theism in the first place. Because if a god isn't in control of everything, then god doesn't have control of everything. And trying to explain randomness, due to people's discomfort with it, is one the key driving factors for religiosity in the first place. That there is some kind of order to the universe, that something is in control and will prevent it all from spiralling into utter chaos, as well as being able to seek some form of control themselves, that they can petition for help from, or the favor of, god. That there's a reason for the lightning, the drought, the floods, the infant mortality, not just the indifferent arbitrariness of nature. If god doesn't have those omni qualities, then nobody is fully in control, and help from above is bounded by limitations. This god is subject to the restrictions and boundaries of the universe, like anyone.
So, while it’s more consistent narratively, it’s more unpalatable to the believer and what they need from their imaginary friends.
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The bible is explicit about predestination. It says it again and again that "Lord" doesn't just already know, but decided and made things, chose people to believe and those not to believe, right from the very beginning, before anything even existed.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
"Lord" made unbelievers, deliberately makes people to not believe the purported "truth" of Xianity, even "tricks" them into non-belief.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
So it's not even just that this god already knows, and therefore it's all completely unnecessary, the bible is unrelentingly insistent that it's outright what it wants, what it intends, what this creator god, this "potter" who has "power over the clay," created by design.
Xians don’t love their god, they’re afraid of it.
The “love” is just Stockholm Syndrome.
“Acceptance of atheism at once pulls down caste and religious barriers between man and man. There is no longer a Hindu, a Muslim or a Christian. All are human beings. Further, the atheistic outlookputs man on his legs. There is neither divine will nor fate to control his actions. The release of free will awakens Harijans and the depressed classes from the stupor of inferiority into which they were pressed all these ages when they were made to believe that they were fated to be untouchables. After all it is man that created god to make society moral and to silence restless inquisitiveness about the how and the why of natural phenomena.”
-- Goparaju Ramachandra Rad
This completely makes sense to them.
Narrated Ibn `Umar:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five which nobody knows but Allah... nobody knows what will happen tomorrow; nobody knows what is in the womb; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and nobody knows when it will rain."
Narrated Ibn `Umar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The keys of the unseen are five and none knows them but Allah: (1) None knows (the sex) what is in the womb, but Allah: (2) None knows what will happen tomorrow, but Allah; (3) None knows when it will rain, but Allah; (4) None knows where he will die, but Allah (knows that); (5) and none knows when the Hour will be established, but Allah."
Indeed, Allah ˹alone˺ has the knowledge of the Hour. He sends down the rain,1 and knows what is in the wombs.2 No soul knows what it will earn for tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.
... therefore Islam is false.
Reminder: an “all knowing” god and “free will” are mutually exclusive.
How much does it matter on whether or not an atheist thinks that free will exists? I know that free will’s existence is a very big component of Christianity and other religions, but I’ve also taken part on very secular discussions on the topic of free will’s existence as well that didn’t rely on discussing religion at all. I do think that free will exists for what its worth, but I also do often wonder if believing that makes me ‘bad atheist’ (so to speak) when talking about it.
I don't think it's very relevant to non-believers at all. I don't think there's any "right" answer to free will for an atheist. Other than that having it or not is not the result of a god.
The problem of free will is really an issue for theists whose gods were invented as a primitive way of explaining why things are and why things happen, while also needing to feel taken care of. Believers who insist that humans bear the blame alone for evil/sin/everything-bad-in-the-world while their god gets the credit alone for good/love/everything-good-in-the-world and is too fragile and immature to be held responsible for the bad things, despite having set the entire world up this way in the first place. The same god they pray to to change things to their liking, the same god they insist does not violate free will, and yet has a "plan" for their life and steps in to circumvent or override free will at convenient moments to suit their petty wishes.
Any theist who steps into "free will" territory is basically doing one of those obnoxious swimming pool bomb dives into quicksand.
We appear to have free will, but I don't think it's as entirely "free" as it may appear to us. We all have history, experiences, culture, upbringing, expectations, memories and habits that influence how we act and how we make choices.
Can you quit your job or your studies, travel half way around the world, switch your political alignment, become a vegan/start eating meat and shave your head/grow your hair out to your knees?
Yes, you can choose that. But will you? No, you're not going to do that.
Can you choose to get up every day at 4:00am and train 12 hours a day to become the worldwide triathlon champion? Sure, you can choose that. But are you going to? No, you're not. Somebody will or does, otherwise there wouldn't be a champion at all. But you and I, while we seem to have the freedom to do that, we're not going to.
That's not to say that I think everything is predestined. But we make small choices, small decisions one at a time, and in many cases there is only small differentiation between the choices, or with sufficient information one could probably predict the choice someone is going to make. Those choices also affect other people, even if those choices are small, because we don't know the flow-on effects of those choices and have to make the best ones we can with what we know. So things that happen aren't merely the result of our own free will (such as it is) but the result of everyone else on the planet.
Believers act like it's merely all on us. That I choose hell because I choose to deny Jesus as Lord, or MuhAllah as the true prophet/god. But I just heard the stories they taught us and found them absurd, while my parents chose that particular church that was boring, that church chose those particular priests who were all obnoxious and uncompelling, and so on, and so on. Did I have a choice to not believe, or was it simply inevitable?
Can I choose to believe now? Can Xians choose to believe in Vishnu, Quetzalcoatl or Kahless? Can they choose not to believe? Like, actually not believe, rather than just "oOh, LoOk aT Me, I'M An aThEiSt, I ThInK NoThInG CaN CrEaTe eVeRyThInG CaMe fRoM NoThInG AnD A MoNkEy iS My cOuSiN!"
So, while I don't think we have absolute free will, it's not because the universe doesn't allow it, but because we don't. Or at least, our psychology doesn't. There are things we like or prefer, we're creatures of habit, there are experiences that didn't go well that we want to avoid, desires or ambitions we've already conceived, etc, etc. Even then, we can be influenced by such things as fear of success or failure, fear of being alone, among other impulses. How many times have you made a choice and then changed your mind at the last second?
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Imagine how chaotic the world would be if everyone had absolute free will at all times. Although, we'd presumably have evolved and adapted to such a world and wouldn't know it any other way anyway.
As far as I can tell, free will or not is largely irrelevant to non-believers. It's an interesting philosophical question, but I don't think the atheist position lives or dies on it. Even if we had (have) absolute free will, I don't see how that undermines disbelief in a god - even if I could choose belief, I don't have a justification to do so for any one god over any other god; I would also have to choose cognitive dissonance.
And it doesn't undermine secular morality either; indeed, if we have absolute free will, then people choosing to act morally far more often than not is all the more admirable. And if we don't, then why do we need a god?
Hey, man, I was reading you. You have fair points there. God is the most powerful and creator of hell.
But he also doesn't want people to go there. If he doesn't want them to, but doesn't stop them, how is this coherent? By the free will.
Because of that, it exist an angel who CHOSE not to follow God, because he wanted to be as powerful as him. It was a big fight and then he was expelled to the Hell. But that guy still wants followers as God has. Hence, that's the reason why he acts that way.
And the free will is the reason why THE PEOPLE STILL CAN CHOOSE to not be with God, hence, be tempted by the devil, hence, be in hell.
he also doesn't want people to go there.
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You seem to be following a god you made up yourself. Cause it sure ain’t the Xian god of the bible.
If he didn't want people to go there, then people wouldn't go there. It wouldn't even exist. Your god created everything, including hell and Satan and the rules about how people are judged. You know, based on belief alone, not morality or good deeds.
Which means that, as devout Xians, Adolf Hitler and Jeffery Dahmer will be in heaven. Because of the way your god set up the world.
angels to humans, has free will
"Free will." You people bleat that, and yet it doesn't hold up. Is it "free will" alone that prevents you from flapping your arms and flying? Is that why you don't fly? What about regrowing a severed limb? Is it just because you choose not to?
You see the problem here, right? Your god (supposedly) limits us already in ways you do not perceive as violating free will. There are things that we cannot do that we can’t even imagine being capable of doing. It invented the ability to regrow limbs -- and then gave it to salamanders. Your god could have designed us such that we had free will, but we went to heaven. I mean, is your god all-powerful or not? Is it that it couldn't set things up that way, or that it didn't want to?
When you pin your entire argument on “free will” you’re saying that your god authorizes and condones all evil done using that free will.
If I spot one of your pedophile preachers or priests raping a child, and I can intervene and help, but I don’t, then I’m complicit. I’m authorizing and condoning the rape of that child.
Your god authorizes child rape every day. Your god is everywhere, can intervene, and does not. And your god prioritizes the free will of the pedophile priest over the free will of the child to not be raped. So, your god does not really value free will. Or it does, just not that of a helpless child crying desperately to the god that refuses to help them. Your god chooses the priest.
“They’ll be punished later,” you might say. Well, i’m sure that’s consolation to the child, but it’s weird that the Xian line of reasoning halts all empathy whatsoever for the child, and is entirely about protecting the cosmic entity rather than the mortal tiny human. Why is it that humans have to protect their gods, while the gods leave the humans to their own devices?
And anyway, no they won’t.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Raping children does not put you in danger of eternal damnation. The god-believing, child raping priest will go to heaven. The child who grows up to realize god isn’t there will be tortured forever. Your god’s system is immoral.
A “good” god would prioritize the success and wellbeing of its creatures over its own narcissistic needs. But your god’s top three commandments are literally only about itself. It couldn’t spare two of those commandments to tell people not to rape, nor enslave each other. Its only unforgivable sin is only about its own hubris. You believers like to pretend that your god is like a parent. Except that parents put their needs behind those of the children. They sacrifice their own needs to ensure the safety and wellbeing of their children. Your criminal-neglect parent god leaves its children to starve, be raped and suffer in the world that it created. A world that is exactly as your god wanted it to be (by necessity, otherwise it’s not a god).
Every action your god does in the bible is to further its own needs, its selfish, conceited, narcissistic hunger for the applause of mere humans.
Never mind that your "free will" absolutist god has (supposedly) spent every moment from the beginning of time meddling in the affairs of humans. Your god killed millions in the bible because it didn't like them.
“But god is god, he can do anything he wants.” Including violate free will, evidently, eliminating free will as a defence of your god at all. You don’t get to have both.
Your god killed Onan for not wanting to impregnate his widowed sister in law. Your god brainwashed the Pharaoh to "harden his heart" in order to escalate the Egyptian-Israelite magic war, specifically to show his "signs" so that they would know him (stated explicitly in Exodus). Your god killed everybody in the world, violating their free will, except one incestuous family because of vague "iniquity." Your god violated the free will of the firstborn of Egypt by murdering them. For things they didn’t do. Your god spent pretty much the entire Old Testament violating the free will of people, from satisfying the blood-lust requests of those who came to see it, to waging its own war on humanity out of the spite of the first humans exercising who exercised their “free will.” (Even though they were childlike and absent any knowledge of right and wrong.)
The free will that it grants and then punishes for. “Follow me or be tortured for eternity.” “Here, have free will, now do exactly what I say or I’ll set you on fire.”
It’s not even possible to freely choose to follow your god when it has a constant gun to your head. For will to be truly free, there must be no duress whatsoever. And you’ve already made it clear, it’s not. Belief or torture. Choose one or the other, no other options, no ability to not play the game, forced to play this game... against your will. That is, even the parameters of your supposed “free will” choice aren’t free.
Well, I do choose. I choose neither. I choose not to play. Now what? Does your god execute one of the two limited options, or does it honor my free will choice not to play? Is my will free or not? Can your god impose specific limitations or not? If it can limit the choices to two specific outcomes without violating free will, then it can design us to know and accept your god (and therefore be destined for heaven like you claim your god wants for everyone) without violating free will.
If you want to present this “free will” argument, you’re going to have to get your god to take the threats off the table. Until then, this claim is nullified, because it is not, and cannot be, “free will” by definition.
Your god also violates free will to deliver its followers their petty prayer-wishes. If you pray, then you already don't believe your own silly story. Every time you pray for something - to pass a test, for patience, for help - you're asking the world to be shifted by your god in violation of free will. You're asking for your god's intervention.
Remember that the next time you pray for anything: know clearly and surely that you're refuting this story you're trying to spin.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The bible says that your god is the potter who makes vessels unto honor or unto dishonor. That is, once again, your god makes us as believers and unbelievers, saved and damned, righteous or unrighteous. Your god is responsible.
You're saying the bible is wrong.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Your bible literally says that your god sends people there and that your god predestined them to go there. You're saying the bible is wrong.
That bears repeating: you are saying that the bible is wrong, that what it says about predestining the holy before the foundation of the world, is false. Your god being the potter making us unto honor or dishonor is wrong.
Excellent. We need pay no further attention to the only book that claims your god exists at all. If it's wrong, then it's unreliable. (If it's "open to interpretation" then it's also unreliable. If "it's a metaphor" then it's... you guessed it... unreliable.)
an angel who CHOSE not to follow God
Did your god make this angel, knowing full well what would happen? Or did it not know? Is your god all-knowing or is it not? Again, your god must bear all the blame alone. Either it knew the result and is ultimately responsible, or it didn't and it's not a god and therefore not entitled to judge us about the human experience it can never know or understand. Choose. Which one is it? Is your god culpable or ignorant?
If you're going to lean completely into the free will thing, then you've already chosen "ignorant." Free will refutes omniscience. Your god knows what you will eat for lunch tomorrow - try to eat anything else. If you can, then your god is not omniscient. If you can't, you don't have free will.
If you're going to put all your eggs in the "free will" basket, then you're saying not only that your god doesn't know all, but it can't know all. It's disqualified from judging humans when it doesn't know what it's like to be one, what we feel, what we experience, what our lives are like.
Additionally, you’re accidentally saying that there is evil and sin in heaven. If iniquity is caused by free will, then the devil choosing to oppose god - you know, having been made that way by the potter - must mean that free will can be exercised in heaven, and thus evil exists there. If evil cannot exist there, then neither can free will. Ergo, the citizens of heaven are slaves without free will. If evil cannot exist there, then you’re making up nonsense about the “angel who chose not to follow god” to excuse your god creating that angel to fulfil a particular role. Can evil exist in heaven and thus the devil had free will? Or can evil not exist in heaven, and the devil just did what he was designed and predestined to do? Which will it be? Awkward...
(You’ve never thought any of this through, have you?)
hence, be tempted by the devil, hence, be in hell.
The same devil that your god made and won't destroy? Or can't. Again, your god is responsible for the continued existence of this devil. It could not exist unless your god wanted it to exist. Your god destroyed Sodom and turned a woman into salt, but it won't destroy its primary enemy? Can your god only do the really easy magicks?
If the devil can continue to exist without your god wishing it so, then the devil is more powerful than your god, and your god is a lesser creature not worthy of being called a "god".
Can your god not change the rules about how all of this functions in order to undermine the devil’s intentions? Or doesn't it want to? Yet again, this swings back around to your god being solely responsible. Unless, of course, the devil is more powerful than your god.
(Are you getting it yet? You can't have a god that is not responsible. it's either responsible or it's not a god. With all power comes all responsibility.)
But that guy still wants followers as God has.
Satan followers are Xians. I am not an Xian. Your imaginary enemy is no more real to me than your imaginary god. I don't follow Satan any more than I follow Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or Sauron. To follow the devil, you must believe in it. Atheists do not. Therefore, we cannot go to hell, since we aren't its followers.
But that's not good enough for your god is it? Your god needs belief and worship (by definition, it's not perfect, since perfect things cannot be deficient or in need of anything). Your god therefore condemns me anyway.
If non-believers are unwittingly followers of Satan by default, then that’s on your god for setting things up this way. Responsibility goes entirely to your god once again.
If I will go to hell, then you're lying. Or at least, making this garbage up as you go along and haven't figured out it doesn't work. If I will go to heaven, then your bible is wrong. Again. If I will go to neither, then I need do nothing, because nothing is at risk. I already expect to die after the one and only life I will ever live ends.
Which means, you have very big problems to solve in your mythology. Starting with the fact your mythology only works in a fandom and fictional universe I'm not a part of.
PEOPLE STILL CAN CHOOSE to not be with God
Use your free will to believe in Zeus. Go on. Or Quetzalcoatl. Just for a minute or two. Show me how it’s done. Go on, do it. I can name a dozen gods if you like, but here’s a list; any of them will do. Pick just one, any of them. Use your free will. Become a follower of Mbombo for five minutes. Or Chandra? Maybe Freya? You have free will, right? The free will to CHOOSE to be with a particular god. So, use it. Put up or shut up. Come on, do it.
Do it.
Do.
It.
Or is your argument so patently stupid, absurd and false that it refutes itself?
If you can't will yourself into sincerely believing in a (different) god, then you can shut up forever about "sending yourself to hell" or "CHOOSE to not be with God." If your god wanted to be known, it would be known. Then people could choose whether or not to follow it. But your "mysterious ways" god can't be bothered doing that.
Your god punishes people for not choosing something that can't be known. Your god is immoral. And fortunately, fictitious, since all of the above pretty much refutes your god out of existence.
Unless you can prove that you can choose to believe something you have no good reason to believe, then you're lying. You are lying to protect and defend your monster-god. And you know it. You know your god is immoral, you know your god is responsible for all of it, and you're lying your ass off, trying to rescue your faith.
Believers who think this fairytale horror story is true don’t have a free will choice, because as we saw earlier, they think the threat is real. And now we also know that you can’t just free will-choose to believe it’s true and the god is real in the first place.
It’s time you stopped making this argument, because with all of this taken together, it’s not only nullified, it’s completely incoherent.
We're not stupid, you know. We can tell when you don’t have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about. We're not gullible fools who will be placated by stupid, incoherent fables you invented about your imaginary god in a desperate attempt to fix the first set of stupid incoherent fables (the bible) that invented your god in the first place.
Yes, yes, yes, go off in a huff of “I’ll pray for you.” I’ll continue to think for you. One of us has to.
P.S. For a porn blog, you’re pretty sanctimonious. Reported.
Believers think the entire universe couldn’t exist without this cosmic mastermind.
