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Random Thought Depository

@random-thought-depository / random-thought-depository.tumblr.com

Science fiction fan and aspiring science fiction author. 39 year old male. I made this because I wanted a place to put my random thoughts.
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The Children's Crusade

You know - we've had to imagine the war here, and we have imagined that it was being fought by aging men like ourselves. We had forgotten that wars were fought by babies. When I saw those freshly shaved faces, it was a shock. 'My God, my God - ' I said to myself, 'It's the Children's Crusade. — Kurt Vonnegut

Here’s a consequence of Covid that I didn’t expect! Reduced contact with people for a few years makes familiar things novel again, and you get the chance to see them again for the first time. And I’ve gone through about eight heckin’ airports in the last month, so the people-watching is pretty intense. In particular, the soldiers.

If I recall correctly from the Before Times, it’s unusual but not strange to see large groups of soldiers moving through airports in uniform sometimes, particularly around the holidays when all the bases let them out. But for obvious reasons I hadn’t observed the phenomenon in a few years now, so it’s the first time I’ve had unfiltered contact with a large gaggle of soldiers in quite a while. Talking to them is a pretty fun game; the uniforms make them even more self-conscious than people usually are at that age (which is a lot), so if you can trick them into smiling they immediately blush because they’re not sure if they’re allowed to look happy or not.

But there’s the rub, right? “At that age.” When I say I haven’t seen a large group of soldiers in a while, what I mean is that I haven’t seen a large group of soldiers since I was firmly in my 30s and thinking of myself as an adult by default. I looked up the stats; the current average age of an enlisted soldier is 27, and that’s considered surprisingly old by historical standards. Probably I was seeing some boot camps being let out, because the age range I was seeing was well short of that, more like college students. And one of the things that changes in your 30s is that people in that 18-24 year old range start feeling a lot like kids.

I don’t mean that in a patronizing way, at least I hope not. Certainly I’m not saying that people of that age should be treated like small children or denied the advantages of independence and adulthood. But my instinct when faced with a 20 year old is to cultivate and teach; the default is to ask myself what I can do for them and what my responsibilities to them are. Basically I’m looking at them from the tall side of a power differential. Probably I have a more acute case of this than most, because of my history teaching folks in that age range, so a lot of my background involves actual formalized power over these kids. But I have to figure that most people start feeling this way at least a little bit by the time they’re in their mid 30s; there’s a reason for that ‘half your age plus seven’ rule.

Anyway, my point is that 20 is the modal age of US soldiers killed in Afghanistan. I don’t know the age distribution for the other guys, but I doubt it was much older.

That’s what hit me all at once, when I was going through the airport. We sometimes make those “How do you do, fellow kids,” jokes about 25 or 30 year old actors playing high school students, right? But even more often, Hollywood does the same thing with soldiers, in a way that’s far less questioned and far more depraved. Sampling randomly from the cast of Saving Private Ryan, the age of four actors playing the rank of ‘private’ was 28, 28, 30, and 31. A PFC is generally going to be in their first year of military service; a realistic portrayal of these people would put them at 18 or 19 in most cases. We’re systematically lying to ourselves, pretending that the front lines of war are a contest between these powerful, mature warriors. But that’s not what war is.

Jennifer Lawrence was 22 when she played Katniss Everdeen in The Hunger Games, and Josh Hutcherson was 20. That’s the closest that Hollywood has come to realistically portraying the age of soldiers who fight in modern wars, I think.

It’s not like this message doesn’t already exist in culture here and there. “They were so young” is a steady refrain when people talk about death in combat, in real life and on tv. When Kurt Vonnegut- a veteran of WWII himself- had his narrator write a book about that war in Slaughterhouse Five, he named the fictional text The Children’s Crusade. I may be a little more sensitive to this interpretation than some, but once you hit a certain age and have a certain relationship with these kids, there’s no way not to see. It’s just glaringly obvious. We know what we’re doing, and we know the words for it: child sacrifice.

That’s what war is, once you get past all the bullshit. It’s not only that. It’s a few other things too, some of them practical and in a local sense necessary. But it’s never been other than the large scale and systematic effort to sacrifice our children more effectively than our enemies do. It was the foundation of Feudalism, it was the foundation of the Wars of Religion and the Crusades, it’s the foundation of the Westphalian Nation-State, and unless we’re very, very lucky, it will be the foundation of whatever political order comes next. When we beat the Nazis in WWII, we did so because we managed to kill the Nazis’ kids faster than they managed to kill our kids.

Imagine a story about Fall Blau, a 1942 German offensive, that correctly cast almost all of the attacking Nazi soldiers as teenagers (being composed mostly of 1942’s graduating class). Imagine heroic action sequences in which allied forces- themselves buttressed by the ranks of young people who were still figuring out how to shave correctly- killed these teens by hundreds and thousands, to the sound of triumphant brass soundtracks. Not some 28 year old actor wearing a letter jacket, actual high school seniors. We couldn’t do it. It would be sick, a mockery. Because in our stories, we need to lie. We need ‘soldier’ to be an aspirational thing, a hero to emulate or a villain to fear. Anything but a kid.

I used to think of holidays like Veterans Day as rather unabashed propaganda for cultural militarism, a way to elevate the practice of war and honor those who conduct it. But I’ve since revised that opinion somewhat. Because when the priests pull out their knives, and when the god of war demands more human sacrifices to withhold calamity for another year, you don’t just send your children up the temple steps without ceremony or ritual. You put them in white robes, you give them gold bands to wear on their wrists and around their neck. You throw flower petals along their path. You wrap them in layer after layer after layer of story and meaning and glory, because that’s the only tool you have left to look away, to grab for any reality other than the body of a child crumpled on the floor in front of you.

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loki-zen

As someone who’s worked in the Industry, I don’t think this is deliberate pro-war propaganda. We tend to avoid casting real teenagers because, on average, they are less good at acting, and less able to handle other aspects of the job. With under-18s, at least in my country, there’s also awkwardness involving labour laws that I think the army (which I think can still recruit from 16?) is exempt from!

But I still cast real 14-18-year-olds in my production of Romeo and Juliet, because the fact that not-real-teenagers is the norm makes going for realism a strong artistic choice with its own merits, and hell yes I’d like to see someone do this with a war movie. It’d have the same effect of highlighting the senselessness of the deaths and the culpability of the adults in the positions of power.

The people I’ve been staying with have this big book about the history of the A Song of Ice And Fire/Game of Thrones world that I’ve been dipping into a bit, and reading this post caused me to think a little about how subtly horrifying it is when it’ll casually mention some guy being 17 or 16 or even 14 years old at the time of one of the early battles of his career.

Like, people talk about that series being grimdark, often with an implication that it wallows in the ugliness and brutality of the world it depicts (I haven’t read the books or watched the TV show so I can’t say how fair that is), but I feel like what’s really horrifying about that in this sense is there isn’t any dwelling on or even really acknowledgement of the implicit horror of it, it’s just mentioned in passing, in passages like this:

“One such was Dalton Greyjoy, the wild young son of the heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands. Of him, Hake writes, “He loved three things, the sea, his sword, and women.” A fearless child, headstrong and hot-tempered, he is said to have been rowing at five and reaving at ten, sailing with his uncle to the Basilisk Isles to raid the pirate towns for plunder.

By the age of ten-and-four, Dalton Greyjoy had sailed as far as Old Ghis, fought in a dozen actions, and claimed four salt wives. His men loved him (more than can be said for his wives, for he tired of women quickly). His own love was his blade, a Valyrian steel longsword he had taken off a dead corsair and named Nightfall. In his fifteenth year, while fighting in the Stepstones as a sellsail, he saw his uncle slain and avenged his death, but he took a dozen wounds and emerged from the fight drenched head to heel in blood. From that day forth, men called him the Red Kraken.

Tonally and in context, this passage clearly reads as talking up what a scary bad guy this person was, and his precocious participation in combat is used as a way to communicate and reinforce that. It’s kind of jarring when I take a step back, start to really process the fact that passage is saying this person was a child soldier, and re-examine it while thinking about it in those terms. I’m not sure whether the authors are subtly communicating how normalized this sort of thing is in the world they’re depicting (the book is ostensibly an in-universe document), or if they just didn’t really pause to really think about what they’re depicting in those terms themselves.

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It occurs to me that one relatively sympathetic aspect of these people might be that, their founding population having been abducted as small children and raised by an inhuman monster, they might lack a lot of the stupid prejudices that regular humans in a low-tech setting are likely to have if real history is any guide.

Think about what’s going to happen with that first generation. It sounds to me like the dragon abducts them when they’re very young, the better to brainwash them. The dragon is probably both ignorant of and uninterested in a lot of human culture, it just wants to raise up some dragon-worshipping brainwashed thralls. Which is probably going to be bad in a lot of ways, but it also means the transmission chains of a lot of stupid prejudices get broken. There’s no-one around to tell those kids that darker-skinned people are inferior. There’s no-one around to stigmatize left-handedness and force the left-handed ones to hide being left-handed. There’s no-one around to socialize them into complicated and rigid gender roles and tell them men should be in charge. There’s no-one around to tell them they shouldn’t share a washing bowl with a Cagot. There’s no-one around to tell them some people are Untouchables and karmically deserving of low status and suffering and you should take a ritual bath if one of them touches you. The dragon probably doesn’t even know about half that stuff and doesn’t care about most of the other half. The dragon might actually actively discourage a lot of prejudices like this if they do show up, because they’d interfere with its human stock being efficient thralls (“You’re telling me you want to reduce the military effectiveness and productivity of my dragon cult because you don’t want to share tools with people who have a particular surname? Yeah, no, we’re not doing that; any tool that is not personal property belongs to me and will be used by any of my thralls who is doing work that requires it”).

What happens when these kids reach puberty? The dragon probably wants its dragon cult making babies, so it’s probably going to tell them how baby-making works and make it clear it expects them to make some new thralls for it sooner or later, but as long as the thralls are making approximately the right number of babies and aren’t killing each other it probably won’t care much about the details. So... These people are going to start experiencing attraction to each other and sometimes falling in love with each other, and... Some of them are going to fall in love with people of the same sex, and there’s no-one around to tell them homosexuality is wrong. Some of them are going to fall in love with more than one person, and there’s no-one around to tell them they aren’t allowed to have multiple partners, and there’s no-one around to tell them that people who already have a partner are “taken” and off-limits, and there’s no-one around to tell them that if you’re a man another man having sex with your female partner is a huge deadly insult to your honor. The original write-up talks about dragons selectively breeding their human thralls, so there might be significant reproductive control and coercion happening, but it’s probably pretty orthogonal to the sort that happens in patriarchal societies.

This is simplifying in ways that might paint an over-optimistic picture. Even small children may have picked up some prejudices from the societies they spent their first years in. And some of that stuff might get reinvented. Children often detect and react with hostility to difference even without much or any prompting from adults, and I suspect some prejudices of this sort are ultimately rooted in that sort of reflexive xenophobia. And I think at least a rough “men do more of the fighting and heavy labor, women do more of the child-care and less strength-intensive work” division of labor is probably going to emerge, because it’s a natural and logical reaction to physical sex differences in a low-tech context. Though on that note, I can think of a few factors that might work to keep dragon cults more gender-equal than regular human societies:

Dragons likely won’t want their cults getting too numerous. A numerous cult would be harder to control and more likely to develop power centers independent of the dragon. Dragon cults would also be more secure against external threats than other human groups of their size, because they’ve got a giant fire-breathing monster on their side, so they wouldn’t have as much pressure to make sure they’ve got lots of fighters to defend their land (though the dragon would likely be a “tall poppy,” it’s likely that lots of people will want to kill it to stop its depredations and plunder its hoard and have the glory of defeating it, so that’ll partly cancel that out). Put this together, dragon cults might be at least a little less pro-natalist than their regular human neighbors. I mean, they’ll probably still have big families by modern standards because of how many people die young in low-tech societies, they’ll probably still need to have 3-5 children per couple just for replacement rate, but this might make at least a little difference. And high birth rates, large families, and pro-natalism are an important load-bearing pillar of strong gender roles; it’s not an accident that we started treating women a lot better after we invented or popularized vaccination, antibiotics, indoor plumbing, and birth control pills (the first three things made high birth rates unnecessary and even undesirable, the last thing made low birth rates easier to maintain). Compared to other human women, dragon cult women might have more time and energy to devote to things that aren’t making and raising babies.

I think dragon cults are also likely to be socially hierarchical but economically communalistic, with little private property and relatively high social mobility. From the original write-up it sounds like dragons want totalitarian control over their cults, so they won’t want their cults to have power centers independent of the dragon. Dynastic families and sizeable accumulations of private property are power centers independent of the dragon, so the dragon will discourage their formation. In low-tech male privilege societies powerful families and stable inherited property are major bulwarks of patriarchy; they make it important who your father is, and they make it important to avoid family instability that may result in division of the property or otherwise endanger the family’s claim to the property. If patrilineal descent chains don’t matter much, women are likely to have more sexual freedom and by knock-on effects of that more freedom in general and are under less pressure to marry early and produce lots of potential heirs for their husbands.

Finally, the write-up mentioned dragons selectively breeding their human thralls for size and strength, and maybe implied also selectively breeding them for precocious physical maturity. If they’re doing that, dragons might also selectively breed their thralls for reduced sexual dimorphism. From the dragon’s point of view, why wouldn’t you want to double your pool of potential strong fighters? So after two or twenty centuries of selective breeding dragon cult women might have size and upper body strength a lot closer to males. Dragon cults would probably still have some kind of “men do more of the fighting and women do more of the work compatible with having a baby or child in close proximity” gendered division of labor, but reducing sexual dimorphism would tend to weaken gendered divisions of labor and hence gender roles in general.

I mean, we’re talking about a creepy high-control cult here. And “nobody was there to tell them...” would definitely have potential dark sides, like “nobody was there to tell them rape and incest are wrong” and “nobody was there to tell them that an adult shouldn’t casually slap around or beat up a child when they’re angry at them.” They’d probably develop some taboos on that sort of stuff just to keep their society somewhat functional, and the dragon would probably give them rules against the aspects of that sort of behavior that might lower their efficiency as thralls or endanger the viability of the dragon cult, but “basically functional levels of rape, incest, and casual physical abuse of children” might look pretty horrifying (though given what a lot of actual historical societies looked like I’m not sure they’d really be worse on the rape and casually beating up their children fronts than their non-dragon cult neighbors). So this isn’t going to be any kind of utopia. If dragon cultists showed up in a story they’d probably be bad guys. But, like:

“And because they serve dragons, they sometimes get the good stuff. Picture a 15- year-old kid with the physique of Conan, wearing the golden armor of ancient kings and armed with magic spears. The kid is also illiterate, covered in fleas, and thinks that humans were created by dragons.”

I suggest that this kid might be a girl, who has a girlfriend and a boyfriend, in a world where a female person being a warrior and interacting on a footing of easy familiarity and equality with rough violent men and having multiple partners is very much not a regular thing in most human societies. And while from one point of view this person is a brainwashed slave of a giant fire-breathing mammal-like reptile, she can look forward to having a lot more personal freedom than most non-dragon cult women (e.g. the 15 year old farmer’s daughter whose father and older brother she just eviscerated). Would fit into: “And its not hard fascism either.  Their barbarian tribes don't chafe at the collar.  They've believe in their dragon.  And when you stand in front of a dragon, you can see why.” If that girl has some idea of how much less freedom and power she’d probably have if she’d been born into one of the surrounding more normal human societies, that knowledge surely cements her loyalty to her dragon. It’d make the whole thing more insidious in a way.

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Aside: the one thing that kind of bugged me about the Goblin Punch post is where it says dragon cultists “never build cities or roofs.” So what do they do when it rains, or is freezing cold, or burning hot? I’m interpreting this as they live in tent-like structures and don’t build permanent houses with thick walls, cause otherwise that bit is just grimderp.

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yes profanity is funny but what would be funnier is a vicious, morally reprehensible, unredeemable villain character who steadfastly refuses to say anything stronger than oh gosh golly. just a truly unlikeable evil little shit, but they clutch their pearls like a scandalized country preacher every time someone drops an f-bomb

Helpless victim, currently being disemboweled, disintegrated, or otherwise made not-alive in a slow and painful way: oh FUCK oh for the love of GOD FUCK it hurts GOD FUCK-

Villain, holding a knife/disintegrator, blood/ash to the elbows: now, there is no need to be so uncouth about this.

It’s not even like this has to be a goofy concept: “is deeply invested in a superficial appearance of politeness but incredibly abusive, will use perceived or real but trivial violations of superficial politeness as an excuse to abuse people, is often highly privileged and in some sort of position of authority” is a very real type of abuser.

There’s probably a lot of real parents and teachers who’d punish a child they had authority over by doing something physically painful to them and then add more punishment if the child said a “bad” word because of the pain (and might say something like “there is no need to be so uncouth about this” completely unironically in that situation). And if that type is somewhat less common today, I expect in 1910 people like that were very common.

@loving-not-heyting is that what your reaction image was getting at?

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earlgraytay

the santa claus discourse that’s stretching across my dash (in the form of one very long argument two of my mutuals are having) is making me flames-on-the-side-of-my-face incandescently angry

but like, I know for most kids who celebrate Christmas Santa probably is just a Fun Pretend Game that gently teaches life lessons about consequences, as opposed to A Tool Of Manipulation

and that for most people the word ‘consequences’ does not bring to mind a decade of gaslighting

and that there really is no point getting into any of this, because a) Your Experiences Are Not Universal and b) people generally do not like remembering that there are a lot of deeply flawed parents out there and many commonly used parenting techniques can do a number on a kid when used poorly

but i have just enough of a migraine that i can’t let this one go without kvetching about it

This seemed worth sharing, I hope you don’t mind me reblogging it. My condolences on you having this experience (sorry if that sounds weird, I can’t think of a better way to say what I want to say).

For anyone worried about me, the OP here doesn’t reflect my experiences; the people who raised me were good parents, and I have good associations with Christmas. As I said, it just seemed a perspective worth reblogging to me.

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