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#nomenclature – @prokopetz on Tumblr
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David J Prokopetz

@prokopetz / prokopetz.tumblr.com

Social Justice Henchman; main website at prokopetz.net
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People who treat D&D's classes as like being in any way representative of fiction outside of D&D are my nemesis, I just saw a post that was like "remember the difference between a Sorcerer a Warlock and a Wizard is this" and treating like those words as if their very D&D specific meanings were like universally accepted I'm going to start taking hostages

"remember as we all know a Paladin is like this" Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that Charlemagne's twelve peers could all use divine smite and divine sense and cast divine sense and summon magic horses. You piece of shit. Don't ever talk to me

"the difference between a Druid and a Cleric" You are nothing. Words mean things here in the real world.

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prokopetz

The definitions aren't even consistent across different editions of Dungeons & Dragons. The earliest codified use of the term "sorcerer" in D&D had X-Men style mutant powers rather than being a wizard variant. Druids in 2nd Edition were a militant brotherhood who determined their internal rankings by having anime-style tournament arcs. The bard's first core-book appearance was as as a high-level prestige class for dual-class fighter/druids. If you wanted to be a wizard with a sword in BD&D you had to be an elf, because the race/class split didn't exist, and "elf" was the hybrid arcane caster class. "Warlock" has meant about four different things. If you're trying to universalise these definitions, you aren't just going to be wrong about fantasy fiction more generally, you're also going to be wrong about most iterations of D&D.

Hell, let's look at "wizard" specifically. Over the history of Dungeons & Dragons and its various first-party campaign settings, a "wizard" has variously been:

  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a mystical attunement with one of the world's three moons, and whose strength waxes and wanes with their chosen moon's phases
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from draining the life from nearby plants and animals each time they cast a spell, as part of a hilariously unsubtle environmentalist allegory which positions arcane magic as the equivalent of the oil industry
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a curse that's slowly warping their body and mind, and if they cast too many spells they'll turn into a werewolf or a Frankenstein monster or some shit
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a little elemental familiar; when they want to cast a spell, they need to send their little buddy to fetch the spell (spells are physical objects) from the Elemental Planes, and sometimes it comes back with the wrong spell

Again, this is all just from material the game's publisher has historically seen fit to put their official seal of approval on. The game doesn't even agree with itself about what a wizard is; that's not a great basis for a universal taxonomy!

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infrabeest

Wait which setting is that third one from? I recognize Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and Al-Qadim, but not that one.

Originally from Ravenloft, I believe.

(Confusingly, the 2.5E supplement Player's Option: Spells and Magic later renamed the Ravenloft wizard the "warlock", being one of the several different uses of that term I mentioned above.)

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marcmagus

I had forgotten about the "Druids are in touch with nature so of course they fight over territory and have such a strict hierarchy that you can't level up past a certain point unless you go find another druid and beat them in ceremonial combat to take their place" thing!

The funny thing about the Druids' fighting each other to rise in their hierarchy thing: it's based on a real-world thing, but one that has nothing to do with Druids and that might actually have been a Roman fabrication.

The high priest of the cult of Diana at Lake Nemi, the Rex Nemorensis, was supposedly a position that could be usurped simply by killing the current high priest. I think Gygax may have gotten the idea from a book called The Golden Bough, a work of comparative mythology from the early 1900s, which proliferated that legend, and simply decided to apply it to Druids in D&D.

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reblogged

People who treat D&D's classes as like being in any way representative of fiction outside of D&D are my nemesis, I just saw a post that was like "remember the difference between a Sorcerer a Warlock and a Wizard is this" and treating like those words as if their very D&D specific meanings were like universally accepted I'm going to start taking hostages

"remember as we all know a Paladin is like this" Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that Charlemagne's twelve peers could all use divine smite and divine sense and cast divine sense and summon magic horses. You piece of shit. Don't ever talk to me

"the difference between a Druid and a Cleric" You are nothing. Words mean things here in the real world.

Avatar
prokopetz

The definitions aren't even consistent across different editions of Dungeons & Dragons. The earliest codified use of the term "sorcerer" in D&D had X-Men style mutant powers rather than being a wizard variant. Druids in 2nd Edition were a militant brotherhood who determined their internal rankings by having anime-style tournament arcs. The bard's first core-book appearance was as as a high-level prestige class for dual-class fighter/druids. If you wanted to be a wizard with a sword in BD&D you had to be an elf, because the race/class split didn't exist, and "elf" was the hybrid arcane caster class. "Warlock" has meant about four different things. If you're trying to universalise these definitions, you aren't just going to be wrong about fantasy fiction more generally, you're also going to be wrong about most iterations of D&D.

Hell, let's look at "wizard" specifically. Over the history of Dungeons & Dragons and its various first-party campaign settings, a "wizard" has variously been:

  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a mystical attunement with one of the world's three moons, and whose strength waxes and wanes with their chosen moon's phases
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from draining the life from nearby plants and animals each time they cast a spell, as part of a hilariously unsubtle environmentalist allegory which positions arcane magic as the equivalent of the oil industry
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a curse that's slowly warping their body and mind, and if they cast too many spells they'll turn into a werewolf or a Frankenstein monster or some shit
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a little elemental familiar; when they want to cast a spell, they need to send their little buddy to fetch the spell (spells are physical objects) from the Elemental Planes, and sometimes it comes back with the wrong spell

Again, this is all just from material the game's publisher has historically seen fit to put their official seal of approval on. The game doesn't even agree with itself about what a wizard is; that's not a great basis for a universal taxonomy!

Avatar
infrabeest

Wait which setting is that third one from? I recognize Dragonlance, Dark Sun, and Al-Qadim, but not that one.

Originally from Ravenloft, I believe.

(Confusingly, the 2.5E supplement Player's Option: Spells and Magic later renamed the Ravenloft wizard the "warlock", being one of the several different uses of that term I mentioned above.)

Avatar
reblogged

People who treat D&D's classes as like being in any way representative of fiction outside of D&D are my nemesis, I just saw a post that was like "remember the difference between a Sorcerer a Warlock and a Wizard is this" and treating like those words as if their very D&D specific meanings were like universally accepted I'm going to start taking hostages

"remember as we all know a Paladin is like this" Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that Charlemagne's twelve peers could all use divine smite and divine sense and cast divine sense and summon magic horses. You piece of shit. Don't ever talk to me

"the difference between a Druid and a Cleric" You are nothing. Words mean things here in the real world.

Avatar
prokopetz

The definitions aren't even consistent across different editions of Dungeons & Dragons. The earliest codified use of the term "sorcerer" in D&D had X-Men style mutant powers rather than being a wizard variant. Druids in 2nd Edition were a militant brotherhood who determined their internal rankings by having anime-style tournament arcs. The bard's first core-book appearance was as as a high-level prestige class for dual-class fighter/druids. If you wanted to be a wizard with a sword in BD&D you had to be an elf, because the race/class split didn't exist, and "elf" was the hybrid arcane caster class. "Warlock" has meant about four different things. If you're trying to universalise these definitions, you aren't just going to be wrong about fantasy fiction more generally, you're also going to be wrong about most iterations of D&D.

Hell, let's look at "wizard" specifically. Over the history of Dungeons & Dragons and its various first-party campaign settings, a "wizard" has variously been:

  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a mystical attunement with one of the world's three moons, and whose strength waxes and wanes with their chosen moon's phases
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from draining the life from nearby plants and animals each time they cast a spell, as part of a hilariously unsubtle environmentalist allegory which positions arcane magic as the equivalent of the oil industry
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a curse that's slowly warping their body and mind, and if they cast too many spells they'll turn into a werewolf or a Frankenstein monster or some shit
  • A spellcaster whose power derives from a little elemental familiar; when they want to cast a spell, they need to send their little buddy to fetch the spell (spells are physical objects) from the Elemental Planes, and sometimes it comes back with the wrong spell

Again, this is all just from material the game's publisher has historically seen fit to put their official seal of approval on. The game doesn't even agree with itself about what a wizard is; that's not a great basis for a universal taxonomy!

Avatar
reblogged

People who treat D&D's classes as like being in any way representative of fiction outside of D&D are my nemesis, I just saw a post that was like "remember the difference between a Sorcerer a Warlock and a Wizard is this" and treating like those words as if their very D&D specific meanings were like universally accepted I'm going to start taking hostages

"remember as we all know a Paladin is like this" Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that Charlemagne's twelve peers could all use divine smite and divine sense and cast divine sense and summon magic horses. You piece of shit. Don't ever talk to me

"the difference between a Druid and a Cleric" You are nothing. Words mean things here in the real world.

Avatar
prokopetz

The definitions aren't even consistent across different editions of Dungeons & Dragons. The earliest codified use of the term "sorcerer" in D&D had X-Men style mutant powers rather than being a wizard variant. Druids in 2nd Edition were a militant brotherhood who determined their internal rankings by having anime-style tournament arcs. The bard's first core-book appearance was as a high-level prestige class for dual-class fighter/druids. If you wanted to be a wizard with a sword in BD&D you had to be an elf, because the race/class split didn't exist, and "elf" was the hybrid arcane caster class. "Warlock" has meant about four different things. If you're trying to universalise these definitions, you aren't just going to be wrong about fantasy fiction more generally, you're also going to be wrong about most iterations of D&D.

Avatar
reblogged
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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

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beokirby

I'm afraid that would be countably infinite damage.

Technically, this doesn't specify; it could be any infinity. However, the art and flavour text implies recursive infinity, which is necessarily countable.

(And as far as I'm aware, even the silver sets have never printed a creature with power or toughness outside the rational numbers, which would allow us to infer countable infinity. Even if they snuck in a root 2 or something, algebraic numbers are also countable - though maybe WotC has printed a pi/pi creature since I last played Magic.)

While the card itself doesn't specify, MTG's backend rulings come to the rescue.

Specifically, the statement says "Infinity Elemental has the greatest power among creatures on the battlefield (and off the battlefield for that matter), although it will tie with other Infinity Elementals."

By the axiom of countable choice, the supremum of the reals is ℵ0. Thus, Infinity Elemental is countable unless Magic prints a creature with power ℵ0.

Uncountably infinite damage? I've got you fam.

This is countably infinite tokens copies of Doubling Season; after this, all you need is a card that puts a single +1/+1 counter on an attacking creature, which will result in a creature with 2^ℵ0 power and toughness.

(Credit to Reddit user u/lucariomaster2 on r/BadMtgCombos)

The problem here is how to resolve the countably infinite number of Doubling Season activations and proceed to a board state that allows anything else to happen. By RAW, this wouldn't work, as order must be chosen for replacement effects that modify the same event. This would essentially just "crash the game", with the activating player processing Doubling Season forever.

But if you allowed players to "skip" ordering events where every possible ordering would result in the same outcome, then yeah, this checks out. (This is something that any sensible group would do - but violates Turing machine rules.)

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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

Avatar
beokirby

I'm afraid that would be countably infinite damage.

Technically, this doesn't specify; it could be any infinity. However, the art and flavour text implies recursive infinity, which is necessarily countable.

(And as far as I'm aware, even the silver sets have never printed a creature with power or toughness outside the rational numbers, which would allow us to infer countable infinity. Even if they snuck in a root 2 or something, algebraic numbers are also countable - though maybe WotC has printed a pi/pi creature since I last played Magic.)

While the card itself doesn't specify, MTG's backend rulings come to the rescue.

Specifically, the statement says "Infinity Elemental has the greatest power among creatures on the battlefield (and off the battlefield for that matter), although it will tie with other Infinity Elementals."

By the axiom of countable choice, the supremum of the reals is ℵ0. Thus, Infinity Elemental is countable unless Magic prints a creature with power ℵ0.

Uncountably infinite damage? I've got you fam.

This is countably infinite tokens copies of Doubling Season; after this, all you need is a card that puts a single +1/+1 counter on an attacking creature, which will result in a creature with 2^ℵ0 power and toughness.

(Credit to Reddit user u/lucariomaster2 on r/BadMtgCombos)

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reblogged
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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

Avatar
beokirby

I'm afraid that would be countably infinite damage.

Technically, this doesn't specify; it could be any infinity. However, the art and flavour text implies recursive infinity, which is necessarily countable.

(And as far as I'm aware, even the silver sets have never printed a creature with power or toughness outside the rational numbers, which would allow us to infer countable infinity. Even if they snuck in a root 2 or something, algebraic numbers are also countable - though maybe WotC has printed a pi/pi creature since I last played Magic.)

While the card itself doesn't specify, MTG's backend rulings come to the rescue.

Specifically, the statement says "Infinity Elemental has the greatest power among creatures on the battlefield (and off the battlefield for that matter), although it will tie with other Infinity Elementals."

By the axiom of countable choice, the supremum of the reals is ℵ0. Thus, Infinity Elemental is countable unless Magic prints a creature with power ℵ0.

Avatar
reblogged
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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

Most combos in MTG are infinite but require some form of human action (e.g. declaring an ability's activation), so they're only as infinite as the human playing the game is. Even if a combo were to be set up that indefinitely created new state changes without human input, it's impossible to go uncountable because of the stack - even simultaneous objects must be declared to enter the stack in some order, which establishes a bijection between the naturals and your MTG board state no matter how many iterations are completed.

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reblogged
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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

Avatar
beokirby

I'm afraid that would be countably infinite damage.

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reblogged
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prokopetz

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

...This implies that there theoretically bigger combos that might potentially be possible in MTG than going infinite.

Well, yes, non-countable infinities are by definition "bigger" than countable infinities (infinitely so, in fact!). However, I'm not aware of any Magic: the Gathering combo which inflicts a non-countably infinite amount of damage, and knowing what I do of the game's rules I'm pretty sure it can't happen. I'd love to be corrected, though!

Avatar

I know Exalted 3rd Edition is just using "uncountable" as a game-mechanical term of art because saying "infinite" would clash tonally, but I kind of love the idea that some baddies can punch you so hard that they inflict a non-countably infinite number of levels of damage. I'm not sure what inflicting non-countably infinite damage would look like in practice, but I'd like to see it.

Avatar
reblogged
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prokopetz

don't answer that last ask I sent you actually. a) because I've since realized you rightfully don't give a shit about wizards of the coast, and would be justified in deleting the info I wanted from your brain as soon as you learned it, b) because I realized you aren't Google, and c) because I Googled it and found out myself.

on a related note, did you know wizards copyrighted the term "d20 system??" wtf. that was the last place I expected to have problems. I thought it'd be, like, "armor class" or "difficulty class" or something else similarly oppressive and cruel to copyright that would force me to change my whole rules document, and mess with my player's ability to remember which mechanics have had their name changed.

Somehow copyrighting the term "d20 system" feels even wronger than that.

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Wizards of the Coast is the outfit that popularised the idea of categorising game systems according to the shape of the dice you roll in the first place. There are a few prior examples of games with similar naming conventions, including West End Games' D6 System – which is where WotC probably got the idea – but the idea of "dX systems", where X is the shape of the dice you roll, as coherent categories of games is very much a post-d20 System phenomenon.

That is, it's not that WotC trademarked (note: not "copyrighted") an existing piece of in-use terminology when they trademarked the term "d20 System"; it's that the idea of lumping all game systems which make use of twenty-sided dice together under the category of "d20 systems" was popularised by WotC's trademark.

(Indeed, if one were feeling conspiratorial, one might observe that the idea that all systems which roll the same-shaped dice are basically interchangeable with one another is a notion whose popularisation has proven very convenient for WotC's post-3E marketing strategy!)

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This reminds me of one person who namedropped "2d6 system" as something everyone should understand, and I was like, okay, do you mean Traveller or PbtA or tons of indie games that use 2d6?

(It was PbtA, not sure which one)

Yeah, that's a pretty good illustration of what I mean. The idea that Traveller, Apocalypse World, and Big Eyes, Small Mouth constitute a coherent category of games simply because they all have task and/or conflict resolution mechanisms which involve rolling a sum of 2d6 is just about as sensible as treating "d20 systems" as a meaningful term.

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don't answer that last ask I sent you actually. a) because I've since realized you rightfully don't give a shit about wizards of the coast, and would be justified in deleting the info I wanted from your brain as soon as you learned it, b) because I realized you aren't Google, and c) because I Googled it and found out myself.

on a related note, did you know wizards copyrighted the term "d20 system??" wtf. that was the last place I expected to have problems. I thought it'd be, like, "armor class" or "difficulty class" or something else similarly oppressive and cruel to copyright that would force me to change my whole rules document, and mess with my player's ability to remember which mechanics have had their name changed.

Somehow copyrighting the term "d20 system" feels even wronger than that.

Avatar

Wizards of the Coast is the outfit that popularised the idea of categorising game systems according to the shape of the dice you roll in the first place. There are a few prior examples of games with similar naming conventions, including West End Games' D6 System – which is where WotC probably got the idea – but the idea of "dX systems", where X is the shape of the dice you roll, as coherent categories of games is very much a post-d20 System phenomenon.

That is, it's not that WotC trademarked (note: not "copyrighted") an existing piece of in-use terminology when they trademarked the term "d20 System"; it's that the idea of lumping all game systems which make use of twenty-sided dice together under the category of "d20 systems" was popularised by WotC's trademark.

(Indeed, if one were feeling conspiratorial, one might observe that the idea that all systems which roll the same-shaped dice are basically interchangeable with one another is a notion whose popularisation has proven very convenient for WotC's post-3E marketing strategy!)

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reblogged
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prokopetz

While I sympathise in principle with folks who object to the term "old man yaoi" being used to describe characters in their mid thirties, as someone who's repeatedly been disappointed to hear a character described as a "MILF", only to discover that the speaker is using "MILF" to mean "literally any woman who's visibly over 25" – often by the very same crowd who are now being persnickety about the definition of "old man" – I confess there's a part of me that's just thinking how does it feel now that the shoe's on the other foot, huh?

I… do not think the people complaining about “old man yaoi” including 30-year-olds and the people defining MILFs as any woman visibly over 25 are the same people at all, actually.

I need to emphasise that I'm not speaking hypothetically – I have literally seen many of the exact same individuals on my dashboard both abusing the term "MILF" and complaining about inappropriate use of the term "old man yaoi". Like, on multiple unconnected occasions.

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While I sympathise in principle with folks who object to the term "old man yaoi" being used to describe characters in their mid thirties, as someone who's repeatedly been disappointed to hear a character described as a "MILF", only to discover that the speaker is using "MILF" to mean "literally any woman who's visibly over 25" – often by the very same crowd who are now being persnickety about the definition of "old man" – I confess there's a part of me that's just thinking how does it feel now that the shoe's on the other foot, huh?

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reblogged
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prokopetz

I understand that coming up with interesting ways to describe penises is a perennial challenge for fanfiction authors of a particular bent, and it's not my intention to impose additional hurdles; however, it's unavoidably true that – unless one consciously adopts a very distanced tone – even fiction written in the third person has an implicit viewpoint character, and that one's word choices consequently imply things about that implicit viewpoint character's perspective.

All of which is to say that no, I'm afraid I don't in fact believe that this particular character would think of her penis as a "fuckpole".

(I sometimes encounter an extended version of this problem where – most commonly – both participants are depicted as being kind of shy and awkward, but the body parts and actions are described in very aggressive terms. Whose point of view are these interjections meant to reflect? Is there someone else in the room? Why is sex between two repressed nerds being narrated by a pro wrestling announcer? Actually, on second thought, that sounds kind of awesome.)

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