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Words Have Power

@pistachioinfernal / pistachioinfernal.tumblr.com

ON HIATUS: Be brave, be kind. Feminist, socialist, anti-fascist, she/her. I once asked Chuck Tingle if he might write a kids book. AO3. Multifandom blog. About. Follow 'wholesome' tag for cute stuff. 50ish age
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Pride and Prejudice (2005) + facts | part 2

One of the many reasons this movie is a masterpiece is that Joe Wright allowed for happy accidents like this. It's difficult for me to think of other films that have such rich background action or subtle reaction shots as this one. Instead of concentrating only on dialogue, he keeps the cameras running long enough to pick up all the nonverbal acting, and then actually USED it in the final edit. DIRECTORS DON'T DO THAT ANY MORE.

Dang this movie is so good.

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You know what I realize that people underestimate with Pride & Prejudice is the strategic importance of Jane.

Because like, I recently saw Charlotte and Elizabeth contrasted as the former being pragmatic and the latter holding out for a love match, because she's younger and prettier and thinks she can afford it, and that is very much not what's happening.

The Charlotte take is correct, but the Elizabeth is all wrong. Lizzie doesn't insist on a love match. That's serendipitous and rather unexpected. She wants, exactly as Mr. Bennet says, someone she can respect. Contempt won't do. Mr. Bennet puts it in weirdly sexist terms like he's trying to avoid acknowledging what he did to himself by marrying a self-absorbed idiot, but it's still true. That's what Elizabeth is shooting for: a marriage that won't make her unhappy.

She's grown up watching how miserable her parents make one another; she's not willing to sign up for a lifetime of being bitter and lonely in her own home.

I think she is very aware, in refusing Mr. Collins, that it's reasonably unlikely that anyone she actually respects is going to want her, with her few accomplishments and her lack of property. That she is turning down security and the chance keep the house she grew up in, and all she gets in return may be spinsterhood.

But, crucially, she has absolute faith in Jane.

The bit about teaching Jane's daughters to embroider badly? That's a joke, but it's also a serious potential life plan. Jane is the best creature in the world, and a beauty; there's no chance at all she won't get married to someone worthwhile.

(Bingley mucks this up by breaking Jane's heart, but her prospects remain reasonable if their mother would lay off!)

And if Elizabeth can't replicate that feat, then there's also no doubt in her mind that Jane will let her live in her house as a dependent as long as she likes, and never let it be made shameful or awful to be that impoverished spinster aunt. It will be okay never to be married at all, because she has her sister, whom she trusts absolutely to succeed and to protect her.

And if something eventually happens to Jane's family and they can't keep her anymore, she can throw herself upon the mercy of the Gardeners, who have money and like her very much, and are likewise good people. She has a support network--not a perfect or impregnable one, but it exists. It gives her realistic options.

Spinsterhood was a very dangerous choice; there are reasons you would go to considerable lengths not to risk it.

But Elizabeth has Jane, and her pride, and an understanding of what marrying someone who will make you miserable costs.

That's part of the thesis of the book, I would say! Recurring Austen thought. How important it is not to marry someone who will make you, specifically, unhappy.

She would rather be a dependent of people she likes and trusts than of someone she doesn't, even if the latter is formally considered more secure; she would rather live in a happy, reasonable household as an extra than be the mistress of her own home, but that home is full of Mr. Collins and her mother.

This is a calculation she's making consciously! She's not counting on a better marriage coming along. She just feels the most likely bad outcome from refusing Mr. Collins is still much better than the certain outcome of accepting him. Which is being stuck with Mr. Collins forever.

Elizabeth is also being pragmatic. Austen also endorses her choice, for the person she is and the concerns she has. She's just picking different trade-offs than Charlotte.

Elizabeth's flaw is not in her own priorities; she doesn't make a reckless choice and get lucky. But in being unable to accept that Charlotte's are different, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Charlotte.

Because realistically, when your marriage is your whole family and career forever, and you only get to pick the ones that offer themselves to you, when you are legally bound to the status of dependent, you're always going to be making some trade-offs.

😂 Even the unrealistically ideal dream scenario of wealthy handsome clever ethical Mr. Darcy still asks you to undergo personal growth, accommodate someone else's communication style, and eat a little crow.

I feel like Austen fandom overcorrected with Charlotte some 15-20 years ago, and we're long overdue to pull back from it. Yes, Charlotte isn't being foolish or heedless in marrying Mr. Collins. She's making a calculated decision that she'd rather be the mistress of her own home (and eventually, of the estate of Longbourn) than a spinster daughter (and bear in mind, Charlotte's father's estate is substantial, and not entailed away; spinsterhood for her would be quite comfortable; the 2005 movie's "I'm a burden to my family" is pure invention).

But the book doesn't admire her for this decision. It accepts her calculation, but it - and Elizabeth - ultimately conclude that to have made that calculation says some less than complimentary things about Charlotte. As the poster above writes, Charlotte is more able to put up with being the wife of Mrs. Collins, and constantly at the beck and call of Lady Catherine and her daughter, whereas Elizabeth wouldn't last five minutes in that life. But the book is also clear on the point that this doesn't speak well of Charlotte. That this combination of self-effacement (because she's willing to kowtow to fundamentally worthless people) and arrogance (because she fundamentally doesn't care about them, and thus doesn't mind that they impose on her) is a pretty shitty way to be. If I'm not mistaken Elizabeth even observes that she and Charlotte can never be as close as they once were, now that she's gained a greater understanding of who her friend is and what she's willing to put up with for money.

i already argued with that addition myself but i like these tags

that last bit in particular, like lizzie being overconfident in passing judgement and learning better is kind of vital to the narrative. just because she has a reaction doesn't mean that's meant to be the reader takeaway.

Yeah, in the end, when she is engaged to Mr. Darcy and Charlotte comes over because she 'really rejoiced in the match', Elizabeth finds a lot of plessure in her company.

Also, where is this line from, to teach Jane's daughters embroidery badly?

I think a key piece this conversation is missing are the letters Mr Bennet receives from Mr Collins. Remember the Mr. Collins writes to the Bennets advising them is disown Lydia, stating that her basic character must be bad. He wants them to leave Lydia destitute, possibly homeless and pregnant, because she's a silly 15 year old and hasn't had "proper" adult supervision. And then, when he writes to congratulate them on Jane's marriage, he says that Charlotte is pregnant. Did you just feel a chill? You should have.

This is not a man a woman would in charge of her or her children and even if he never has the opportunity to disown a child, this attitude will come through in many smaller ways in day to day life as Charlotte is trying to raise their kids. The bigger threat? She'll know it's there.

[Oh, and I think the bit about embroidery comes from one of the movies. Folks are mixing up the movies, where Lizzie does sometimes state she will only marry for love, with the books, where she very much does not say that]

Yeah I've been over that being from the '95, which I have not actually watched and was merely referencing for ease of comprehension as one does a popular meme, several times now. I did not expect this post to circulate.

But wrt Mr. Collins being a bad father...that's true, and it's the sort of thing the reader is very much intended to reflect on, but I think it's pretty irrelevant to 'whether Charlotte's decision was bad,' because just as with holding out for a man she actually liked or any of the other things very manifestly wrong with him, the odds of getting someone better were so low as to be basically zero.

Collins is not a monster. He is a very normal, unremarkable, lame self-absorbed sort of shithead. He would disown a child for disgrace but he's incredibly unlikely to beat his dependents in anger; he is indifferent to his wife's personhood but has no particular interest in meddling with her exercise of agency as long as his life isn't disrupted; he is boring and annoying and embarrassing but he will not use his absolute legal control over all their finances to bring ruin on them both. And so forth. He sucks, but considering the menu on offer he's fine.

He represents a median outcome of marriage for a woman without particular prospects, as would a man of somewhat better character and far less financial security.

He's a critique of the whole institution and the positions in which it tended to place the legally infantilized gentlewoman, but I think it's a terrible mistake to understand that as a critique of Charlotte Lucas for engaging with the flawed institution on the terms she felt were the best she was going to get.

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koheletgirl

the thing about mr darcy. is that everything he does he does because of his eldest sibling syndrome. it's so important that he has a younger sister and it's so important that she's 16 and it's so important that their parents are dead. it's so important that georgiana is friendly and cheerful and that he hates everyone. it's so important that he loathes wickham for what he did to her and gets involved to stop him from destroying lizzy's younger sister's life. it's so important that he moves bingley away because he thinks he's about to get his heart broken. it's so important that bingley is a lot like georgiana. like seriously darcy is an asshole because he's an eldest sibling and he's so so sweet because he's an eldest sibling that's the whole point

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cocomonerd

No because pride and prejudice isn't "I changed myself for you so you would love me back." It's "your blatant rejection and disdain for me made me realize things about myself no one had ever been bold enough to tell me so I sat down and evaluated all my behavior patterns and why they came about and came to the realization myself that I had to work on myself. Also I don't expect you to love me now that I'm a work in progress, so I'm just going to do nice things for you because I don't like seeing you hurt." No wonder P&P fans refuse to settle.

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Consider this (based on a conversation I had with some friends a while ago): Pride and Prejudice and Zombies for people who actually like Pride and Prejudice. Look–I tried to read Pride and Prejudice and Zombies and I got about 20 pages in before I came to the conclusion that the person who wrote it did so out of the belief that the original Pride and Prejudice was stuffy and boring. There were out of character vulgar puns. And the trailer for the movie did not convince me that I had missed anything by cutting short my reading experience. So, what I’m talking about here is this premise: the world of Pride and Prejudice, but if you die, it’s highly likely, almost certain that your corpse will get up and try to eat people. But no one dies in Pride and Prejudice, you might say. In fact, few or no people die in any Jane Austen novel. This is true. But people do get sick with some regularity. Imagine the tension added to Jane getting sick after going to visit Bingley if there was the chance that she would become a zombie after she died. Becoming a zombie in an eligible bachelor’s house probably would have seriously wrecked any chances of any of the living sisters ending up with him. Imagine Mr. Collins, as a minister, having the duty upon someone’s death of severing their head with a ceremonial plate or something that would prevent the corpse from rising. Obviously important, but this only makes him more self-important and obnoxious. And dangerous. For you see, in this version, Mr. Bennett, who stays in his office all the time, whose life is the only thing allowing Mrs. Bennett and her daughters to stay in the house–Mr. Bennett is definitely a zombie. He died at home, and Mrs. Bennett decided that, no way were they dealing with this, and so…just started faking it. Jane and Elizabeth know. The younger sisters don’t. In this universe, I think we have to go with zombies that are not any faster or stronger than the humans they were, and in fact tend to get weaker as time passes because their flesh is rotting. And…hmm, okay, how about they are pretty violent upon rising, and for about a week afterward, trying to bite people and spread the infection (even though most people are carriers anyway, but getting a nasty bite from a corpse will give you other stuff that will have you die while carrying the virus). But then they calm down and basically just start sort of attempting to act like they did in life, that is, taking habitual actions with no consciousness, in a depressing and desiccated way. So Mr. Bennett is a zombie, and Mrs. Bennett’s number one goal is to get her daughters married before anyone finds that out. And this, actually, makes Elizabeth’s refusal of Mr. Collins more frustrating for Mrs. Bennett–obviously Mr. Bennett didn’t tell Elizabeth that she could refuse Mr. Collins, because Mr. Bennett is dead, but Mrs. Bennett can’t say anything or the game would be up. Another question in this version–does Mr. Darcy find out about Mr. Bennett being a zombie somehow? Does Elizabeth find out that he knows and didn’t say anything and this is something that helps repair his earlier actions? Anyway, this is the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies that I was looking for.

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tienriu

Mr Collinses

Reddit user TheABrown describes “nice guy” in literary terms and nails it:

A friend of mine who is big into English literature has described a big chunk of them as “The Mr Collinses of the world who are bewildered and angry that not even Charlotte Lucas will have them now that she has more options.”

For those who haven’t read Pride and Prejudice, Mr Collins is a character who has a decent income, isn’t vicious, but he’s annoying and unpleasant.  After being rejected by the heroine, he marries another woman called Charlotte Lucas, who marries him because she’s getting older, not likely to have another proposal, and is worried about living the rest of her life as the maiden aunt in genteel poverty dependent on her father or brother. [source]

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arrghigiveup

I also like the second comment:

I mean, the feckless Wickhams of the world will always attract the silly Lydias; and the genuinely decent and honourable Bingleys and Darcys seem to find their Janes and Elizabeths - but the modern Charlottes - well, lots of them, now that it’s socially acceptable, and financially viable, to be single, would much prefer to spend the rest of their lives living in their own little one-bedroom flats, working their sensible, modestly renumerated jobs, and spending their evenings with friends, pizza, wine, and their pet cats if their options for marriage and partnership are Mr Collinses, regardless of whether Mr Collins has a respectable career or a nice house in the suburbs.
The Mr Collinses are (usually) not vicious or nasty or even objectively a terrible life decision (like a Wickham), but most Charlottes don’t want to spend their lives with them if there’s another option.
The other problem of course is that a lot of Mr Collinses are under some sort of delusion that they’re Mr Darcy/Mr Bingley/Mr Knightley etc.
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musicalhell

I think the best definition of a “Nice Guy” is “Someone who’s convinced he’s Mr. Darcy but is really Mr. Collins.”

^ Yes this.

Mind you his travelling fifty miles to…er…commiserate on Lydia’s disgrace? Is maybe not vicious in the physical sense but at BEST it’s horribly tone deaf and at worse outright gloating.

Also worth pointing out: 

Collins is turned down by Lizzie and disbelieves her. She says several times in the strongest terms that she doesn’t want him but NOPE, she can’t possibly be serious. It takes her leaving the room to get it through his head.

Darcy, by contrast, is turned down and is shocked, but he doesn’t NOT TAKE HER SERIOUSLY. He’s appalled that she would ever think of turning him down, he demands to know why (and by gum does she let him have it) but he takes her at her word. At which point he leaves.

AND THEN TRIES TO DO BETTER.

Mr Collins bumbles off and proposes to the first woman who doesn’t roll her eyes at him. Darcy goes off and attempts to amend his faults, not to win Lizzie over but Because She Is Right and He Was Being An Arse.

“The recollection of what I then said, of my conduct, my manners, my expressions during the whole of it, is now, and has been many months, inexpressibly painful to me. Your reproof, so well applied, I shall never forget: “had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner.” Those were your words. You know not, you can scarcely conceive, how they have tortured me; – though it was some time, I confess, before I was reasonable enough to allow their justice.”

I love me some Pride and Prejudice. (points at videos)

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lvslie
Anonymous asked:

pride and prejudice wasn't written as a resistance to the patriarchy djdjfhdhsj what

i mean i’ve been staring at this message for a solid minute now pondering how to reply, trying to figure out how ro reply, but honestly it boils down to one question: have you read it?

because literally the prevalent theme of pride & prejudice as well as other works of Austen—perhaps most visibly, sense & sensibility—is the ironic social commentary on the degraded role of women, as subjected and dependent on the way of whether they would marry well as they used to be?

like, honestly, what did you think it was about? sure it has a romance in it, but it’s probably one of the the most politically designed and carried out romantical arcs in literature, as it relies not so much on mutual affection, but rather darcy aknowledging his fault of diminishing elizabeth as an intelligent human being. at first, we see him as quite obviously set upon taking her for granted and applying stereotypes; startled with her outspoken attitude and clueless as to why she would reject him. because it IS surprising, that’s the point, given the context of Austen’s novel, the commonly praised choice would be to accept not only darcy, but mr collins without another thought. what do you think is the reason mrs bennet was so distraught all the time? there was no way of securing the future of her daughters other than marriage, we hear it being repeated over and over again—they cannot inherit their father’s fortune.

and—good grief. that’s the romantic ‘main plot’ concerning darcy and elizabeth alone, because the whole point is that he changes his beliefs and acknowledges elizabeth as an equal in the end. darcy isn’t exceptional for being surly and broody, he’s exceptional because he listens and learns.

but all the rest? the whole arc of charlotte, and her unhappy and dull marriage to mr collins, and the stark contrast with elizabeth. charlotte is not WRONG, she does the only thing she knows for certain will allow her to live in a respectful way without becoming ‘a burden to her parents’. the arc of lydia, basing off her portrayal against wickham? even with all his debt, infamy and faults, wickham’s opinion is at no point more blemished than lydia’s. that’s the point, that’s reiteraring the original notion of the disparity between men and women in regency England. the radiating, stinging paternalistic attitude of mr collins towards elizabeth when he marries charlotte and TELLS her that she would probably get no better chance. his absolute belief—corresponding with darcy’s, and contrasted with the latter’s rehabilitation later on—that elizabeth has no choice but accept him.

and elizabeth herself—for all the composition and impeccable manners, she IS a controversial figure in the novel. take the scene when she’s bashed by lady catherine de bourgh, the ongoing commentary on her being too forward with her opinions, the continuous bashing coming from her mother—the lingering threat that lizzy’s ‘stubbornness’ will cause her much trouble and, above all, prevent her from securing both her and the other sisters from absolute poverty when their father dies.

and, just … of course it’s written subtly, it’s conveyed in elizabeth’s wit, in austen’s slightly ironic narrative. the problem with the situation of women is not EXPLICITLY named and stated. it’s not modern times where we’re accustomed to forward addressing of feminist issues. no: it’s shown. it is not only the consistent theme in her works, it’s the prevalent theme of them. i mean, come on, there’s tonnes and tonnes of books that were NOT written with a purpose of targeting partiarchy. fuck, there are much MORE of such books than there is of the latter kind. But to choose Pride & Prejudice specifically, a novel which became one of the most famous books in the world, renowned for e x a c t l y t h i s … i cannot comprehend. please, at least consider this: do you really think the purpose of austen writing p&p was writing a romance? really? why would it become so much of a literature landmark, then?

i don’t mean to be nasty and honestly, go and have your opinion, you’re perfectly entitled to it, but it does make me sad that a novel that is a witty, outsanding and one of a kind social commentary on the plight of women in a specific time period written by a woman IN the time period is turned into something as common as a novel with a romantic plot. that’s all.

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The Mr. Darcy Fantasy isn’t based in what it’s usually made out to be based in

The fantasy isn’t that a brooding “tall, dark and handsome” man will come and swoop you of your feet. 

Darcy changes for Elizabeth. She rejects him, she stands up to him, she insults him in a magnitude of ways, both warranted and not, and he takes all of that, and he reflects on it, and he changes his behavior. He tries to be better. Because he respects Elizabeth and he finds her opinion valuable. 

Think about it. A usual response, both back then and today, would be to dismiss Elizabeth as a “crazy bitch.” He doesn’t do that at all, no, he takes valid criticism found among misunderstandings and takes it to heart. 

The Mr. Darcy Fantasy is a fantasy about being respected and having your opinion be valued very highly. 

The Mr. Darcy Fantasy is that a man would be willing to change his behavior just to be worthy of you. 

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