[@dreamersscape I started a new thread because our old post was getting so long - link to the previous post is here, just to keep this conversation coherent!]
“raw love and affection” > That’s it exactly. The perfect descriptor. Untempered, unqualified, unconditional, unrestrained - Naruto’s love is just like his jutsu, a giant explosion that you can’t dodge or block, and the wielder is shouting and running straight at you the whole time he throws it right at your face XD You just can’t escape him. He’s gonna love you no matter who you are or what you’ve done or how fast you run away from him, which poor Sasuke has been figuring out for years (to his everlasting irritation, I’m sure). Kakashi needs people like that – like Gai, actually, who’s a little bit similar in the sense that he’s determined to be Kakashi’s friend no matter how much Kakashi resists. And I do love the fact that Naruto and Kakashi will be able to connect about Naruto’s parents now that the secret is out – it wasn’t possible before, and they’ve all been running a million miles an hour since Naruto found out, but eventually, once things calm down, it will such a good thing for both of them to complete that circuit. That’s the way things are supposed to be – the connections between generations are supposed to be maintained and strengthened by the people left behind, like Iruka says in the early days of the show -
When someone passes away, it’s the end. His past and future, all the dreams he once had - they disappear along with him. This is true even if he dies honorably in battle, as so many have…all the ties that bind him to the living are severed. All but one, the most important of all: people. Parents, siblings, friends, lovers - the people who were important to him. And these people, the ones left behind, are joined together in a great circle by their shared memories of him. A circle of friendship, trust, and sacrifice that grows larger and stronger as time passes.
It’s so good that Naruto and Kakashi are soon going to be in a space where they will be able to re-forge the links that were disrupted by a malicious system that wasn’t serving either of them.
Well, I don’t want to build it up like the show makes A Big Deal out of it
Oh, don’t worry. I was already expecting it to be the tiniest crumb they could possibly give us. But even crumbs will make me very happy, for these two! XD
But I think he might have doubts that Yamato would want/choose him as a source of help, given the circumstances of Yamato’s capture and torture?
THAT. Yamato getting captured taking care of Kakashi’s kids would have been complicated enough to navigate enough on its own, but the fact that the person who orchestrated all of it was Obito makes it a truly labyrinthine mess. The number of layers of guilt that Kakashi feels - not all of them rational or accurate, obviously, but in his mind they’re real - given all those things, of course he’s uncertain that Yamato would want his help. Kakashi’s internal blame calculator right now is like -
GUILTY [was weak. wanted companionship too much. let you share my burdens.] GUILTY [took advantage of your loyalty] GUILTY [put you in harm’s way] GUILTY [abandoned you to die] GUILTY [created the person who hurt you (by being the reason obito ‘died,’ by failing to save rin)] GUILTY [still love the person who hurt you] GUILTY [still grieving for the person who hurt you]
It’s complicated enough just handling the “i put you in this position and then didn’t even come to save you” level of things, but adding in the “my personal hero/most sacred, precious source of inspiration is the one who did this to you” level makes it practically impossible to manage, especially when Kakashi is actively experiencing (natural and out of his control) feelings of grief for the person who caused Yamato’s entire ordeal. Kakashi doesn’t condone or excuse anything Obito did - he fully understands that Obito caused unforgivable harm to untold numbers of people (himself included) - but he still feels things for him, and he can’t do anything about that, and even if he’s accepted that fact on a private level, I still don’t think he’s entirely comfortable feeling those things in the context of Yamato’s situation.
It’s like what you said about him “wanting to be very careful not to ‘force’ his company on Yamato” - I think he feels like Yamato has every right to reassess or step back from their relationship, given everything that’s happened. Kakashi may recognize on some level that he can’t control his own feelings about the Obito situation, but he also doesn’t think Yamato should have to be understanding of that. Kakashi has never considered himself an appropriate recipient of anyone’s respect or devotion to begin with (“you should find someone more suitable”/“then drop the ‘senpai’”), but with Yamato, especially, I think Kakashi feels now that he’s lost whatever scrap of credibility/worthiness he ever had of being looked up to, and he would be very careful not to put Yamato in a position where Yamato feels pressure to accommodate or defer to Kakashi for any reason, whether it be because of the difference in their ranks or the potential lingering feelings of gratitude/debt that Yamato might still associate with the things Kakashi has done for him in the past. (But of course, like you said, Yamato would probably interpret this as “reticence,” or deliberate distancing, and obviously that would heighten his pre-existing anxieties, which would just complicate things further.)
…it wouldn’t be about the name itself, it’d be Yamato trying to find a way to express that he doesn’t want Kakashi to keep seeing him as the “Tenzo” he’s always known…as his subordinate “Tenzo” that he has to “take care of”…
THIS. I totally agree with you - I can definitely see Yamato getting frustrated at being (unintentionally) put into a box by Kakashi, because even though Kakashi absolutely does not mean it this way, the fact of the matter is that Kakashi taking on all of the responsibility/guilt/blame about this situation disregards the active choices and sacrifices Yamato made. It’s almost…disrespectful. Dismissive of Yamato’s agency. And of course we as the audience know that it isn’t intended that way at all - Kakashi respects Yamato more than anyone in the world, and his reaction comes from a very real place where he legitimately feels that he’s been taking advantage of unearned/undeserved loyalty and devotion - but I absolutely can see Yamato getting snappy about being treated like what happened to him was the result of something Kakashi “made” him do, like all the work he’s been doing for the last year was just him following orders and not something he also had a personal stake in.
The whole point of Yamato escaping the Foundation (and even the ANBU) was that he wouldn’t have to be anybody’s lapdog anymore. It wasn’t about him trading one master for another. He doesn’t follow Kakashi because he’s obligated to do so; he does it because he believes Kakashi is worthy of being followed. It’s not that Yamato doesn’t feel a debt of gratitude to Kakashi; he does, and he probably always will, but Yamato also believes in the same mission as Kakashi, cares about the same children, wants to protect the same future. Maybe, when he accepted that first substitute assignment from Tsunade, he did so in the spirit or following orders or doing Kakashi a favor, but at this point, Yamato is just as invested in the struggle as everyone else. He cares about the kids just as much, and he’s just as committed to saving the world. He ended up getting captured because he was willing to give his life for the cause, and he deserves to have that decision honored as the true sacrifice it is, instead of having it minimized as an artificial choice that he was compelled or deceived into making.
I think, deep down, it’s hard for Kakashi to conceive of the idea that someone would choose to follow him for valid reasons. He feels like everyone who loves and respects him does so because they’re laboring under a false impression of his goodness. But for Yamato, hearing this is essentially tantamount to being told that he’s still someone else’s thrall. Like he isn’t making his own informed decisions about who to follow or who to serve, like he’s still being led around by the nose by someone who can make him do anything they want, like someone else (however benevolent) still has him under their thumb. I’m sure he knows Kakashi doesn’t mean it that way, but I also can imagine, in a moment of upset, that he would react poorly to being portrayed like that - at the implication, however unintentional, that he isn’t truly free.
It’s like you said - Yamato doesn’t want Kakashi to keep thinking of him as a prisoner who needs to be rescued. He doesn’t want to be limited to being a tool in someone else’s hands (especially not a tool for Kakashi’s continued self-flagellation), and he doesn’t want his friendship with Kakashi to be limited to what it was back when Yamato was an enslaved child. He needs Kakashi to give him credit for his own decisions, which means he needs Kakashi to let go of the guilt and absorb the message ‘i have not been coerced into caring about you!’ Tenzo, in his capacity as Kakashi’s comrade, has never been confused about what kind of person Kakashi is. He hasn’t been taken advantage of or manipulated into doing something he didn’t want to do. He has never been a tool for Kakashi to use; he has always been Kakashi’s willing partner. His loyalty to Kakashi is not unquestioning obedience or obligatory repayment of a debt; it’s justified respect, genuine admiration, and more-than-earned affection. All Yamato did during the war was take the same risks that Kakashi himself has taken on Yamato’s behalf countless times, and if Kakashi can’t accept the fact that Yamato took those risks willingly - if Tenzo can only be “Tenzo, Kakashi’s charge” instead of “Tenzo, a true equal” - then maybe it’s time to leave that old identity behind entirely.
I do think they’ll eventually figure this all out and it will be okay. But I 100% understand why we might see Yamato chafing at being addressed in a certain way prior to all these knots being untangled.
He doesn’t need to be “Yamato” to Kakashi, but he might be unconsciously seeking reassurance Kakashi still wants “Yamato” around.
Ohh, this…I’m… 😭😭😭
I was reminded of the word “boundless” the other day, and I think it’s quite pertinent as a descriptor for Naruto’s love. :D
That’s the way things are supposed to be – the connections between generations are supposed to be maintained and strengthened by the people left behind, like Iruka says in the early days of the show -
When someone passes away, it’s the end. His past and future, all the dreams he once had - they disappear along with him. This is true even if he dies honorably in battle, as so many have…all the ties that bind him to the living are severed. All but one, the most important of all: people. Parents, siblings, friends, lovers - the people who were important to him. And these people, the ones left behind, are joined together in a great circle by their shared memories of him. A circle of friendship, trust, and sacrifice that grows larger and stronger as time passes.
OH. I forgot about this quote. 😍🥺
Yeah, it’s such a complicated, intricate situation Yamato and Kakashi will have to navigate. For Kakashi, he thinks he’s undeserving of having a friend like Tenzo (or of having anyone’s regard, as you said) and probably thinks he’s the last person Yamato wants around right now (or maybe ever if he’s smart), and yet wouldn’t it be worse to “abandon” him further by not being there when he needs it? And he’s acutely aware of how much he cares about Yamato and that just makes him more guilty, how selfish can he be when Yamato would probably be so much happier and better off not having Kakashi dragging him down– (He was making so much progress with his estimation of hiw own self-worth, and he’ll still get back to building on that, but this will most likely derail things for a bit.)
And then with Yamato, it should be great because he’s lived his dream, literally! But now he’ll be afraid that it was only a pipe dream, that he was the only one who would wish for it. How can he ask that of anyone, especially after he let everyone down by allowing himself to be captured and that led to so many losses among his allies. He desperately doesn’t want to be alone anymore, but Kakashi’s probably right to distance himself from ‘someone like [him]’.
They want the world for each other, but each think they aren’t the right person to be a part of that. 😭
Kakashi doesn’t condone or excuse anything Obito did - he fully understands that Obito caused unforgivable harm to untold numbers of people (himself included) - but he still feels things for him, and he can’t do anything about that, and even if he’s accepted that fact on a private level, I still don’t think he’s entirely comfortable feeling those things in the context of Yamato’s situation.
Exactly. I’m so glad you get me, Pan!
I just had a very hurtful thought about this of which I am very sorry for in advance. How awful would it be for Kakashi, who’s keeping all his feelings about Obito locked deep down inside and doing all he can not to let on anything to Yamato, if while Yamato’s getting filled in, Naruto jumps in like, “Yeah, but Obito changed! And he really helped us out in the end, right Kakashi-sensei?” etc., etc., before Naruto knows what Yamato went through partially by Obito’s hands? Hopefully Naruto and Yamato have different debriefings, or Naruto’s busy having his arm examined during Yamato’s 'cause YIKES.
Kakashi has never considered himself an appropriate recipient of anyone’s respect or devotion to begin with (“you should find someone more suitable”/“then drop the ‘senpai’”), but with Yamato, especially, I think Kakashi feels now that he’s lost whatever scrap of credibility/worthiness he ever had of being looked up to
Uh-huh. 😢
but I absolutely can see Yamato getting snappy about being treated like what happened to him was the result of something Kakashi “made” him do, like all the work he’s been doing for the last year was just him following orders and not something he also had a personal stake in.
Yep. 😢
(I feel so mean, thinking it’s very likely they’ll have so many “knots” to pick apart, but none of this is contrived miscommunication; it’s things that they’re textually struggling with!)
He doesn’t follow Kakashi because he’s obligated to do so; he does it because he believes Kakashi is worthy of being followed. It’s not that Yamato doesn’t feel a debt of gratitude to Kakashi; he does, and he probably always will, but Yamato also believes in the same mission as Kakashi, cares about the same children, wants to protect the same future. Maybe, when he accepted that first substitute assignment from Tsunade, he did so in the spirit or following orders or doing Kakashi a favor, but at this point, Yamato is just as invested in the struggle as everyone else. He cares about the kids just as much, and he’s just as committed to saving the world. He ended up getting captured because he was willing to give his life for the cause, and he deserves to have that decision honored as the true sacrifice it is, instead of having it minimized as an artificial choice that he was compelled or deceived into making.
THIS!!!
I think, deep down, it’s hard for Kakashi to conceive of the idea that someone would choose to follow him for valid reasons. He feels like everyone who loves and respects him does so because they’re laboring under a false impression of his goodness….[Yamato] doesn’t want to be limited to being a tool in someone else’s hands (especially not a tool for Kakashi’s continued self-flagellation), and he doesn’t want his friendship with Kakashi to be limited to what it was back when Yamato was an enslaved child. He needs Kakashi to give him credit for his own decisions, which means he needs Kakashi to let go of the guilt and absorb the message ‘i have not been coerced into caring about you!’ Tenzo, in his capacity as Kakashi’s comrade, has never been confused about what kind of person Kakashi is. He hasn’t been taken advantage of or manipulated into doing something he didn’t want to do. He has never been a tool for Kakashi to use; he has always been Kakashi’s willing partner. His loyalty to Kakashi is not unquestioning obedience or obligatory repayment of a debt; it’s justified respect, genuine admiration, and more-than-earned affection.
*AGGRESSIVE BOBBLEHEAD NODDING*
So this is a little silly, but all I’m picturing now is:
Kakashi: I’m sorry, I won’t call you that anymore if that’s what you want. I know I’ve been a pretty terrible teammate, you’ve had to put up with more than you should’ve–
Yamato (mortified to have yelled at Kakashi): No no no, I’m sorry! I didn’t mean it like that! It’s an honor to have had you as my captain, in comparison I’m just a pale imitation–
Kakashi: Whoa, whoa, whoa, what did you just say about yourself? C'mon, Yamato, I know you’re not dumb enough to really believe–
Yamato: No, YOU’RE dumb! Just let someone care about you for once in your life, will you?!
Kakashi: …………………………………………………….wha???
Yamato: I gotta go. *melts into the nearest wall*
—
Kakashi: –and then he just left! I thought it’d just upset him more if I went after him, but I’m not sure how I hurt him in the first place. I was trying to cheer him up. What am I missing here, Gai?
Gai: Absolutely nothing, my dear rival! I am as lost as you are! *gives a hearty thumbs-up* But I do have the perfect solution to help a friend in need. Two words: Dumpling. Shop.
Kakashi: Ah… hm. (his shoulders slump.) I think you may be right. It’s come to this. (determined and not-at-all reluctant or careless:) He’s more than worth it.
—
[Yamato walking along aimlessly, wool-gathering.]
Kakashi (dropping out of nowhere from a tree): Hey, do you wanna go get dumplings with me? It doesn’t have to be dumplings… (I really rather it not be honestly…)
(I’ve never actually seen Frozen as it happens, can you tell?)
So yeah, that was really rough even for a lighthearted sketch of a conversation, but I can imagine them talking past each other similarly, just with better, more in-character dialogue. And really, having it affirmed that the other one wants their company, wants to spend time with them, wants them around–that would help! And then they can untangle their misunderstandings and misplaced guilt over a nice meal. Win-win!
I do think they’ll eventually figure this all out and it will be okay. But I 100% understand why we might see Yamato chafing at being addressed in a certain way prior to all these knots being untangled.
I like that we keep reiterating this, but like, confidently! I truly have zero doubt they’ll work it out and come out stronger and closer than ever, because they’re too important to each other to not put in the work. They love each other and they’re gonna show the other person they are lovable too. :) :) :) (Awkwardly worded, but I bet you know what I mean.) Perhaps that’s why my brain so eagerly goes looking for the angstiest parts of this situation, 'cause it’s reassured that it’ll be okay in the long run. (And also because it craves that sweet sweet emotional hurt/comfort mineral. 😂)
#because yamato is back to being 'tenzo’ now; and kakashi has never tried to stay in touch with 'tenzo’ before#'yamato’ had something essential to offer#and now that the mission he was assigned is over#'yamato’ doesn’t exist anymore#'yamato’ was just a code name. it was a pretend identity.#this entire year with team 7 was a temporary assignment#and yamato knew that#but what he didn’t know was how desperately he wouldn’t want it to end#living outside the anbu was like a dream; and yamato doesn’t want to wake up#we know that. we SAW that. canonically - what he wants most in the world is to stay right where he is#his tsukuyomi dream is to hear kakashi say 'this is where you truly belong’#and it makes sense that yamato isn’t sure if 'tenzo’ can achieve that#because kakashi always let 'tenzo’ drift away before#and of course that had everything to do with kakashi’s own personal issues and nothing to do with yamato#but how is yamato supposed to know that?#i just think…yamato is more afraid of going home than of anything that ever happened to him during the war#because nothing can possibly be worse that being that alone again
I am SO relieved you understood what I was trying to convey! Also, the bolded bit? The other thing he doesn’t know is how much Kakashi didn’t want it to end either!
I’m sorry. We can cry together? I will be.
how selfish can he be
YES. I had to pull this word out to highlight it, because this is EXACTLY how I think Kakashi views this entire situation. He was “selfish” for keeping Yamato around past the point where he “should” have - Hashirama’s necklace was destroyed during the Pain arc, and Yamato himself says that without it, his ability to suppress the Nine-Tails isn’t anything to write home about, but Kakashi keeps him on as co-captain anyway, and I think Kakashi looks back on this as a selfish decision, one he made not out of necessity but out of personal desire, or weakness, because he WANTED Yamato there, he wanted somebody to share his burdens, he LIKED having Yamato beside him (too much, he thinks; it was too much of a comfort to him; he wanted it too badly) - and so he didn’t dismiss Yamato from his service when he “should” have. He didn’t want Yamato to leave, and that was selfish, and it ultimately led to Yamato getting hurt.
especially after he let everyone down by allowing himself to be captured and that led to so many losses among his allies
Yeah, I can’t stop thinking about how Controlled!Yamato was literally holding off the ENTIRE SHINOBI ARMY at once. The combined forces of the whole Alliance and six Kage at the same time (granted, five of the Kage were very drained after their fight with Madara, but STILL). That’s. Mind-blowing. Makes you think about what Yamato could really do, and what he chooses not to do, every day. This is what it would be like if he’d ever agreed to be the weapon he was designed to be, but instead he protects children and rebuilds homes that have been destroyed and repairs damage that Naruto did to a random inn they stayed at one time and catches falling baby birds in a new nest that he made for them. The idea of him waking up and seeing the absolute devastation that he’s wrought on this landscape, the realization that despite how hard he fought to be more than what his original captors wanted him for, someone still managed to use him like the weapon he was intended to be…that’s very upsetting. ;_;
Kakashi: What am I missing here, Gai?
Gai: Absolutely nothing, my dear rival! I am as lost as you are! *gives a hearty thumbs-up* But I do have the perfect solution to help a friend in need. Two words: Dumpling. Shop.
LMAOO THIS IS SO IN-CHARACTER; I LOVE IT 💯💯💯
lolllll at Kakashi going to Gai for interpersonal advice; this is SO believable, as is Gai having no actual clue what the problem might be but providing his tried and true catch-all solution XD XD XD
do you wanna go get dumplings with me? It doesn’t have to be dumplings… (I’d really rather it not be honestly…)
“i’d really rather it not be honestly” I HEARD THIS IN KAKASHI’S VOICE; ahaha thank you so much for this; I love it
re: Yamato losing his cool - you’re so right, Yamato *would* be mortified if he ever lost his temper with Kakashi…partially because he didn’t actually mean to do it, or want to do it, obviously, but also partially because the whole “obeying/respecting your superiors” programming is still so deeply ingrained in him…what a nightmare for him!
Kakashi, on the other hand, would be delighted (once the conflict has been resolved and the need for concern has passed)…he’s been unsuccessfully trying to get Yamato to stop calling him “senpai” for years; he certainly never expected Yamato to forget they’re in an hierarchical relationship altogether and straight-up shout at him.
Now I’m imagining Kakashi and his gentle teasing turning this into the MOST annoying meme for Yamato, once things are better and they both know it’s something they can laugh about…like, every time they’re out and about and they encounter even the tiniest piece of insignificant public conflict, no matter how minor, Kakashi nods solemnly like he’s deep in thought and goes “You know what this reminds me of? That time you yelled at me.”
(Kakashi is always 100% serious and straight-faced about it, no matter what they’re looking at, even as the situations get progressively more ridiculous - )
bbq shop owner: *reading someone the riot act (*cough*lee*cough*) for intoxicated destruction of property* kakashi: hmmm. this is just like that time you yelled at me.
sakura: *pummeling naruto (and sai) for being intentionally (and unintentionally) Rude* kakashi: you know what this reminds me of? yamato: *hands full of brawling kids* nO kakashi: that time you yelled at me.
ninja cat: *lightly swats at pakkun* kakashi: *shaking his head* wow. that was just like that time you yelled at me.
kakashi: *texts yamato that famous wildlife photo of the mice fighting in a subway station* kakashi’s caption: #that time you yelled at me
yamato, fed up: senpai PLEASE kakashi: what are you gonna do? yell at me? kids, eager: YELL AT HIM, CAPTAIN