HOTD finale leaks, Daenerys and TPtwP, retcon?

Okay. So this is something that is just irritating as hell right now. Currently some Jon fans (and I am one myself too--to some extent-- so this is not coming from a Jon hater) are really unhappy that the leaks show that Daemon already saw centuries ago that Dany will be the The Prince that was Promised. They are alleging that this is somehow a retcon of the original. To them, here is my question: Original what? Show or Book?

In the show, there is no clear Prince that was Promised. The last time the Prophecy is mentioned is in 7x02 when it is clarified that it is nuetral with respect to gender. It never shows up in season 8. Nor do the events of season 8 give us any further clue on the prophecy. Every plan made by Jon and Dany failed to stop the Night King in 8x03. By the end of the episode both Jon and Dany are in hopeless situations. Only the surprise attack by Arya (of all people) defeated the Night King after he had, by all rights, won. Arya, of course, if we follow the show's narrative was prepared by the Lord of Light (and knew nothing about any of this) and had nothing to do with Jon and Dany. Not even the show claimed that Arya was the Prince that was promised.

In the books, there is no case for claiming that this is a retcon in any way. In fact, by the end of Book 5 (the last one so far released), Dany is the most obvious candidate for the position. We have the red priests proclaiming it (btw they are also proclaiming it in the show, recall Kinvara). Maester Aemon, who seems to have spent his whole life looking for the fulfilment of the prophecy and is an expert on it also identifies Dany. The signs are all there ('dragons from stone' etc.). Born amidst 'salt and smoke' (Dragonstone), 'bleeding star' (red comet) and so on.

So what gives?

I should also point something out that is essentially stated again and again as if it were established canon:

That Jon IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, becasue he is THE SON OF ICE (Stark) AND FIRE (Targaryen). It seems that the ones who make this argument think that repeating it often enough and loudly, along with derisive dismissals of those who do not agree with them is sufficient to make it a canonical fact. However, none of this changes the fact that THIS IS AN UNCONFIRMED FAN THEORY.

I will be the last to deny that there is evidence poiting towards Jon as well. However, as of ADwD, Jon and Dany are the only plausible characters who can be TPtwP. To make either fit, some parts of the prophecy need to be interpreted metaphorically (with there being canonical support for such metaphorical interpretations, no less) while the others fit literally (for example, 'sword' has to be given a metaphorical interpretation for Dany, while she fulfils the part about awakening dragons from stone literally). If one of them is the one, it can hardly be called retcon.

If we take creator statements to be truthful, specifically that "Aegon called his dream the Song of Ice and Fire" came directly from Martin, then would that fan theory not already be essentially debunked? If it's just the in-universe name for Aegon's visions, then we're not looking for a specific person or event, and identifying Jon (or anyone else) as "the ice and fire" makes no actual sense.

What Could Have Been - Ray Cheng and Sting

I’m sorry but you all aren’t listening, lyctorhood itself is not the “indelible sin” and you can pry this theory from my cold dead hands, honestly, maybe not even then. TazMuir herself could not dissuade me until she explicitly tells me otherwise. My proof for this you ask? Pyrrha’s conversation with Varun in NtN chapter 9.

But let’s backtrack for a second. John has stated that the resurrection beasts are after him and the lyctors for committing the indelible sin of lyctorhood, and as such the lyctors can never return to the Dominican System for fear of drawing the RBs back to the Nine Houses. I’ve never believed this was true given the fact that John is always the greatest common denominator when it comes to the presence of an RB and there’s no mention of an RB going after a lone lyctor. Sure, lyctors have been killed fighting resurrection beasts but there’s a huge difference between being caught in the crossfire and starting a firefight. For me, Nona the Ninth only reinforced that what we’ve been told is the “indelible sin” is either John misunderstanding the RBs (doubtful) or lying for his own purposes (more likely).

In chapter 9 of NtN, Nona recounts the story of her disastrous beach trip and towards the end of this recitation Nona says that Pyrrha;

Pyrrha stands in front of Nona, bathed in the light of Varun the Eater, and proceeds to have a conversation with it. We only get one side but based on the context of the last line, “No, I don’t blame you, man … He was always looking for things to throw himself on.” Varun seemingly apologizes to Pyrrha for killing G1deon. It’s proven later on in the book that Varun can speak to Nona, and while it could be argued that since G1deon is dead and his soul is gone the “indelible sin” has been undone this still begs the question; why would the punisher apologize to the sinner?

If Varun and the other RBs are hunting the lyctors to dole out justice for their sins why would they apologize for doing the very thing they sought to do unless that wasn’t their true intent. The “indelible sin” is not the consumption of another soul, it is the consumption of a specific soul. It is John taking Alecto into himself, not being able to house all of her and instead making an exchange. Housing a piece of her in him, and a piece of him in her. Splintering the soul of a great and terrible force into manageable parts. Which explains Varun’s ominous presence hanging over the planet in the first place.

If RBs are hunting Lyctors there are no lyctors on this planet. Palamedes has not consumed Camilla’s soul, G1deon is gone, Harrow is in the River, Gideon is thumbtacked to her dead body, the only soul of any significance to Varun is Nona. Later on in chapter 13 Varun, by way of Judith, says to Nona;

And in chapter 27,

What did HE do to you!!! what did HE do to YOU!! To give John credit he doesn’t deserve he may not realize it himself but the RBs have been looking for Alecto this whole time. They don’t want the lyctors, they want what John stole, they want the piece of Alecto inside of him. Want to make her whole again, their misused green thing. She’s almost there. She has her piece back from harrow’s body, united with the piece of her hidden in the locked tomb. She only has 1 piece left to collect. And god knows what will happen when the green and breathing thing is whole once again.

I think you’re absolutely right, and John more or less admits it at the end of Harrow the Ninth, when he comes back from the dead:

John’s been lying about the Resurrection Beasts from the beginning, because here’s his first and oldest Saint who clearly believed that the RBs were a threat. The RBs were always coming after John and John alone, because he was the one who killed them and transformed and imprisoned their (sister? fellow planet? not sure how the RBs exactly relate to Alecto and one another). He lied about the “indelible sin” in order to keep the Lyctors feeling guilty (because that’s a good lever to motivate them to do what he wants) and keep them close to him rather than going off on their own in the Dominican System or elsewhere. He’s been lying about the Heralds - I doubt they affect him in the slightest - and the RB’s madness effects in order to get his Lyctors to kill the RBs for him. And on and on. 

Now, the interesting question is: why does John not want to get his hands dirty? Why does he insist on “rip[ping] the very fingers from my hands...throw[ing] them into the jaws of the monsters who hunt me”? (Note: “me,” not “us.”) After all, we know the RBs can’t hurt him and John’s certainly powerful enough to go toe-to-toe against an RB, so I don’t think he’s withdrawing out of caution or cowardice. It could be that he’s using the RBs as a way to bump off his Lyctors, but he’s strong enough to do that on his own, so I don’t think that’s it.  I see two possible explanations. One is that John doesn’t want to fight the RBs, because the main method the Lyctors have gravitated towards of going into the River to fight the spirit of the RB while their cavs animate their bodies against the Heralds might give the game away vis-a-vis Alecto being John’s cavalier. The second is that John isn’t afraid of the RBs, but rather the process of dragging them into the depths of the River is dangerous to him because of the stoma, as their connection to Hell might not kill him but seems like it could definitely imprison him. (Maybe this has something to do with the Tower and the emergence of the devils, but I’ve got no idea what.)

I know the other Mandalorian kids like 'why can't we come on missions it's not fair why does Grogu get to go he's only a baby' and their parents are like 'because Grogu's dad is a fucking idiot'

They probably stopped saying that after 3x7 imo, and switched focus to resentful jealousy over what his dad got him

I’ve been reading those Locked Tomb books you hear about on the news, I’m on the second one right now and like. You know those married couples who need a divorce but have a kid instead and then use that kid as their pretext to stay together even though they hate each other? Now imagine that instead of having a kid, they adopted the two meanest girls at your high school, and instead of being a married couple, it’s one of those Toxic Polycules you hear about from the Pacific Northwest who put an ad in a queer housing group on facebook that’s like “you will live in a broom closet and all dishes will be your responsibility. Scorpios need not apply.” This is what every scene with John and the Lyctors is like.

It’s like that but also one of the two girls joins the polycule, and the other was already having a torrid affair with one member’s estranged wife

I think it’s interesting that Watts proposed to Cinder the idea that she isn’t worthy of this power and now Cinder is probably thinking about that. She really is.

And he allows that she deserved it, which I think contributed to her hearing him out and thinking it over. That framing suggests recognition that it’s hers, that she’s labored for it, and she’s earned it. But at the same time he makes the case that she’s misused it, making herself unworthy of it. Worthiness of her magic, unlike the right to possessing it, is a continuous endeavor. 

When Fria first woke up at the end of v7 up we saw a tremendous explosion of energy, and a winter cyclone reaching far up into the sky above Atlas. While Cinder is on the rooftop with Watts, thinking back to the suffering she’s endured, it’s happening on a backdrop of a firestorm struggling to emerge around her. It’s the seasonal opposite of the snowstorm that signaled Fria’s awakening, but its not able to reach the same heights. That’s either Cinder struggling to demonstrate that she’s no less worthy than the others, and failing, or a subconscious acknowledgement that she already knows she’s not. 

of course the question I have now is when was that set, shortly after ROTS or malachor

was he looking for rex too?

I’d go with after Malachor. I saw the red reflection near the eye piece of his helmet as a visual callback to his exposed face when Ahsoka broke his mask, and the bird cry, whether that was a Convor or not, seems intended to be suggestive of one. It’s also more haunting if this is immediately after she vanished before his eyes in an ancient doomsday temple, for him to only then find the decades old wreckage of their ship, and the graves of all the troopers they knew, resting alongside Ahsoka’s own figurative grave.

Why am I getting like all optimistic again? Someone knock me down or reaffirm my optimism because my poor woman’s heart can’t take what they’re doing to my bb girls on this stupid ass show.

 I gotchu, one of the leakers did a Q&A like 30 minutes ago and just reaffirmed everything. Jon takes the black. King Bran. Jaime literally dying in Cerseis arms. Humanizing Cersei.

Just, the worst of the worst imaginable. There ya go. I’ve knocked you down. Don’t watch this travesty.

I read of FF that the leaker that got everything right has provided pictures to the mods. They also state that Dany won’t accept the bells of surrender and will start the pillaging. So there’s no hope.

“They also state that Dany won’t accept the bells of surrender”

As opposed to what? She’s already accepted two surrenders and a truce.

Glad y’all made up, but the real question from me is…. is Nora going to continue to live in 2019? Is the time line just like not gonna get messed up anymore than it already has (which was not a lot considering the amount of time that she has been there.) Is future Iris not looking for her, does she not notice her absence???

If I correctly understand the literary reference in “the girl with the red lightning,” they seem to be suggesting that she’ll stay.

How’d they describe their time travel mechanic? “The more you break the rules, the less they apply to you,” IIRC?  She’s already gone back and forth in time so many times, and in different ways, and while recording her memories for herself in her diary and with Gideon, that it probably doesn’t matter any more.