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Sarcastic Pretension

@oblivionhold / oblivionhold.tumblr.com

He/him, mostly just here for fandom and general sarcasm.
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Anonymous asked:

this has been rattling around in my mind like a marle in an empty soda can, so I remember the "two bumbling lesbians in charge of an international power" and the only conclusion my mind can make outta that means Marinette fucking dupain-cheng and Lila "EU-brand CIA" Rossi is president and vice president respectively and thought "hey that would be good" and then I remembered that this whole au is [i assume] named after THE terror and I believe now the ladybug/Marinette presidency is the biggest shitshow in french history

YOURE ALMOST RIGHT ANON ! unfortunately for the french its a different pair of bumbling lesbians who have taken reign of the country....

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generalluxun

Who do you think is more fitting to be “Creator’s Pet” of the show: Astruc’s virtual daughter Marinette or perfect and flawless Adrien?

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Okay, before I start- I don't like the term creator's pet, it tends to suggest currying favor on the 'pet' part, and obviously Marinette or Adrien can't do that.

Perhaps 'favorite'? and let me lay some ground rules.

This is not character salt! Nothing here should be used to deride the characters. This is about the narrative woven with/around them. This is examining the external biases at play.

We must recognize that Marinette is the PoV character for the show. That is value-neutral. We can't hold screen time as evidence.

That said let's tackle Adrien being 'perfect' first. I know the show and creator use that word a lot but it is very clear in the show that ... He's not. He makes mistakes, he gets *called out* for his mistakes, he gets upset, he apologizes. He's not perfect.

So, why/how/what is the purpose of the perfect mantra in the show? It's because Adrien is a *trophy*. He was Gabriel's trophy, and now he's Marinette's. A trophy must be 'perfect', or how can it be a trophy? He makes no demands(his flirting as Cat Noir was shown as him being wrong and he corrected his behavior to be more perfect), he gives everything, he carries emotional baggage and costs nothing.

All of his perfection benefits *other people* in the narrative, not himself. Does that sound like a favorite? No it sounds like something you *give* to your favorite.

Because yes, I do believe Marinette suffers from an above-average attachment by her creator(and some fans) I say suffers from because I think it hurts her as a character. Superficially it seems to her benefit, but below the surface it's empty calories.

Marinette makes mistakes too, but they are always framed as best intentions. At the end of any disagreement she is the one in the right. Her pain is always the focus/valid one in any situation. S5 amped this up to the point I call it 'Poor Mari' when it happens. Any emotional situation must make you sympathize with Marinette first and often only. It doesn't matter what or who is involved. The entire Agreste Arc has been summed up by the emotional impact *Adrien's family being the villains and his father dying* have on *Marinette* not Adrien. Marinette gets the sympathy for someone else's crisis. How weird is that? It's not even that she did anything wrong (before the lie) but no one else seems to be allowed to experience more emotion than she does, no matter the situation.

That is a strange choice and one that hurts the narrative and her character. (As they find new/more/repeat ways to put her in emotional turmoil to keep her always center all the time)

As an example from before S5, we can look at how Luka/Kagami were handled. It's two parallel situations, handled at the same time. How they're handled gives the insight you are asking for.

Marinette's struggle is the first an foremost thing in Truth. Luka is the sweetest bean, and even when he's akumatized it is all about her pain the end and her having to break up with him. He's upset but he never blames her, never corrects her. After the breakup he is still completely supportive and always there. He works to find her happiness, even though he openly admits to still being in love with her. Marinette is handled gently and put on a pedestal.

Meanwhile, Lies focuses more on Kagami and her efforts to connect with Adrien who is pining for Ladybug( just as Marinette is pining for Adrien) She gets mad at him. She breaks up with him. She holds him accountable for his behavior. She gets over him. When she finally joins team Adrienette it is for *Marinette's* sake, not Adrien's. (MP72)

So yes, Marinette is favored heavily, beyond simply 'the main character' she is the center of this world physically and emotionally in a way that is only more noticable as time goes on.

Oh- and another easy metric: How many people have said Marinette is the best Ladybug ever vs. has anyone ever given Cat Noir the time of day except Ladybug when she felt bad about leaving him out of the loop?

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flightfoot

Yeah agreed on this. Honestly one of my major issues with the London Special and with a bunch of fics about it, is how heavily they favor Marinette's emotions, moreso than Adrien, who's actually had his world destroyed. Marinette's the main character so things tend to revolve around her, even when they shouldn't.

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generalluxun

You know, Chloé honestly shouldn't be the way she is in the show, even with André and Audrey. Why?

Ballet.

Specifically the kind of extremely expensive top tier ballet she would be thrust into. As of Frightingale she had 8yrs of ballet. That's starting at 5-6, latest.

No high class ballet teacher will take anything from a 5-6yr old. No mayor will intimidate them. They will boot anyone they feel is slacking. Making it this long Chloé could be a bully, she could be vicious, she could be mean, but she *should* be driven, and disciplined. She should value physical precision and poise. Picking on Marinette for being clumsy flows perfectly from that, but only if we see her comparing herself favorably.

In the absence of a strong parental figure, that teacher should be an integral part of her life.

We got none of that though, because 'lol spoiled rich girl' and the story writing isn't as deliberate as they claim. The '8yrs of dance' was a throw away line made up for one episode without thought.

Going beyond her character, this helps explain a lot of the other ??? Moments and lose ends too.

Instead of a punching bag, Chloe should have been the Black Knight to Marinette's White Knight. (To use the Reverse Fairy Tale theme they wanted)

She should have been a real, credible threat. A 'warrior' with her own code, as twisted as it may be. Their battles should have been a recurring and close-fought thing throughout the series. Ladybug might fight Hawkmoth, but Marinette should have battled Chloe. That should have been her personal stake.

Instead we got a whipping girl who is manipulated by everyone and can't even pronounce democracy.

The stakes have never been lower.

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flightfoot

Ooh, this presents interesting ways to rewrite Chloe's character...

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flightfoot
Anonymous asked:

The thing about the London special not outright accepting or condemning Marinette's actions itself, to me, feels like giving her more sympathy and grace than she deserves for her actions. There is no moral ambiguity here. Marinette is 100% in the wrong. And the London special goes out of its way to try and frame this as some "no right answer" type of situation and takes away every opportunity it can to have someone meaningfully confront Marinette about the impact her actions could have on Adrien.

They deny her the chance to even consider it beyond "is lying wrong?" She's almost gaslighting her boyfriend into thinking his abuser was a good person, and now she doesn't even have the excuse of not knowing how bad it was. The whole special focused on how awful Marinette felt for doing something so despicable. And I apologize for my harsh words, but that's really just how bad it is. There's no way around it, and it's honestly quite disheartening to see all the posts about Marinette being under a lot of stress and being 14 or whatever. Like sure, but I don't see nearly the same number of posts sympathizing with Adrien, who is by all means Marinette's own victim now. And anytime someone points out the very reasonable critique that Marinette is doing an incredibly bad thing, they get swamped with these excuses.

Hm... okay. So I agree that Marinette's actions in the London Special were wrong, and that she should have told Adrien the truth, even if it hurt, instead of lying to him. I disagree about there being no moral ambiguity, since "wanting Adrien not to be hurt worse than he already is and wanting to honor the last wish of a dead man, even if he was awful" are reasonable things to value, they just don't override Adrien's right to know about things that concern him, and the way she's done it is likely just as, if not more upsetting than just telling Adrien the truth.

So with the focus on Marinette during the special (and in a bunch of the fanfics that were made based off of the special, though there haven't been all that many) being mostly around Marinette's feelings about the lie, being sympathetic towards her... yeah I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think showing her perspective is valuable to understand why she did what she did, and to show that she was conflicted about it and honestly believed that she was doing the right thing, or trying to do the right thing at least.

On the other hand, it did sometimes feel like the London Special went beyond "these are the reasons Marinette did this, and this is the effect this decision has had on her, please empathize with her reasoning even if you disagree with her choices (even she isn't sure her choices were correct)" to "Poor Marinette, struggling under the burden of the choices she made, but she will bravely shoulder them for Adrien's happiness." I thought it mostly did okay with balancing it except for the last part, with Ladybug and Chat Noir talking about secrets and them both hugging each other over the burden of what they can't tell their partner. Because Ladybug COULD tell Chat Noir, and the person she's hiding all this stuff from IS him, so it felt icky to me to have him help in comforting her for it, when he didn't even understand what he was comforting her over.

I have the same problem with most of the fanfics about the London Special which have cropped up. I'm okay with there being some sympathy towards Marinette in the narrative for being conflicted and feeling like she should lie to Adrien "for his own good", given that she has good intentions, but a lot of it traipses into "poor Marinette is struggling heroically with having to sacrifice her commitment to the truth for the sake of Adrien's happiness." I especially don't like when Adrien feels guilty about Marinette feeling bad over that. While that's not totally out of character for him, I feel like his feelings over his own horrific situation should be centered more, rather than Marinette's guilt over feeling like she should lie to him in an effort to make his situation seem better.

Marinette IS only 14 and I can see why she honestly thinks that lying to Adrien about his father being a better person than he is would be better for him, she hasn't exactly had a lot of classes on the effects of child abuse and the different forms it could take. But there is the angle that Adrien is ALSO 14 and doesn't even have the luxury of any amount of control over the horrible situation he's in with his father.

The main sympathy I've seen given to Marinette is that well, what would YOU do if you were thrown into the situation of having to tell your crush that his father was a supervillain, he was gonna die anyway, and decided to do the one good thing of sacrificing what remained of his life to save your substitute mom? Which... yeah I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable having that conversation, but I wouldn't lie to Adrien either, I'd foist it off on Nathalie. (I do agree with the criticism that Nathalie ought to have been responsible for telling Adrien all these uncomfortable truths, given how deeply she was involved in both Gabriel's supervillainy and in Adrien's creation, but the show has decided to give Marinette all the power and all the responsibility of deciding what to tell Adrien, so here we are).

I would like there to be more attention paid to how Adrien must be feeling after all of this, with finding out his father died and being led to believe that he was actually trying to protect him the whole time, and dealing with that knowledge, than just sympathy for Marinette's position. Marinette had a choice in what to do. Adrien did not.

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oblivionhold

I do think this is a natural extension of how much support Marinette has in comparison to Adrien in general. It's one thing for Marinette to have a wide variety of friends and love interests to comfort her when she's breaking down under the various stressors her in her life while Adrien has a lot less, but at this point it really does seem like the writers are more sympathetic towards Marinette, or at least want to portray being more sympathetic to Marinette. Main character bias has some part of it, too; we simply spend more time in Marinette's 'perspective than we do Adrien's, so it's easier to sympathize with her as compared to him.

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Marinette after being cheered on by the city, comforted by Alya, and receiving 2 pep talks from Chat Noir: My powers didn't change my life, I changed the way I saw myself. I decided to love myself--to love the world around me. And I decided that I could fix what was wrong in it. Adrien, after being progressively pushed out of the team and dealing with his problems alone: me, I managed to go on living, trying to be happy as she wanted me to. I have my friends to comfort me. I'm okay now. I'm as well as I can be, anyway. It must be painful for someone who doesn't have any close friends or anyone to comfort them.

all I'm saying is, adrien and alt adrien's problems aren't as disparate as the show would like us to believe.

It's ironic:

Adrien in all five seasons has had such little development with his personal friendships and actual focus on his grief and how he deals with it (save the Christmas special) that his quote of his comes across more as him desperately trying to convince himself of a happy lie than anything else. Because I'm reasonably certain that the most supportive his friends have been was when they sent that video-message, and while Nino at least has good intentions there's no real depth to their friendship on screen. Everyone else is a step down from there except for Plagg who... tries.

He tries.

Marinette meanwhile has been showered with support from day one of having the earrings. Sure, she started off as a seemingly alone figure in class (disregarding Derision, which still shows her as at least being on friendly terms with the girl squad when Chloe wasn't around and Socqueline, who Marinette apparently just forgot), but literally from the moment Alya stepped into class she was getting emotional support.

Alya protected her in class, just because she saw Chloe bullying her. As Ladybug she was given a sidekick who upheld her in her first moment of weakness (despite the fact that she'd literally thrown him into a Rock Monster's hand with way to know it wouldn't just crush him the last time they'd met) and any time thereafter. And she only accumulated support in both identities from there.

Maybe you could argue that her powers weren't the reason that her life got better; but it's not because "she changed the way she saw herself", not because she decide to "love herself". It's certainly not because she decided she could fix "what was wrong in her life". It's because Alya happened to be there that day and apparently she was enough to drive off Chloe "I nearly killed a girl and drove away Socqueline" Bourgeois and let Marinette's friend group form.

If anyone is dealing with their grief and problems on their own, it's Adrien. But the thing is, both Chat Noir and Claw Noir are essentially in the same position. They're both Adriens who live without the emotional care of their remaining parental figure, it's just that one was able to go to school, and the other one...

Honestly? I don't know. There's an argument that Hesperia might keep his Adrien even more cooped-up than Hawkmoth did his, simply because the dangers of his world are that much greater. But there's no real reason why Claw Noir should have gone feral compared to Chat Noir save the influence of The Supreme likely encouraging his worst traits while Plagg literally had no say.

Either way, the point is the main Adrien's words about how "It must be painful for someone who doesn't have any close friends or anyone to comfort them" apply to him. Nino's about the best he has for human connection, and that friendship just doesn't have the development to be considered substantial outside of fanworks.

It's actually hilarious just how far off base it all is.

Martinette is apparently oblivious to the wealth of support she has and the effect it had on her. In reality the only evident deciding difference between her own and Shadybug's situation was Alya stepping into her life; but Marinette honestly thinks the change in her life was something she did herself.

Adrien meanwhile is on his back from getting his arse kicked by himself, expounding on the merits of deep friendships we've never seen on screen. It's like he's in such deep denial that he's deluded himself into believing in his preferred reality. He's a Chūnibyō; except that he's actually a magical catboy whose great act of pretend is that he has friends who helped him with living with his grief.

But it's just been him and a lone cheese-addled spirit.

You could legitimately play this for comedy.

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generalluxun

I don't put this on Marinette in character. These speeches are 'lessons' being funneled in the moment. If anyone is unaware it's the writing room.

They've given Marinette all the love and support in the world because that feels good and is healthy and people should get it. It's a staple of the magical girl genre for good reason.

But There's this core disconnect caused by the 'reverse fairy tale!' thing they wanted to do. Instead of examining the elements of old fairy tales critically they just swapped Marinette into the male/active/hero role.

The person in that role has to he self made, it's classic male social roles. They have to win via grit, determination and personal prowess/merit. That's just how those tales go.

So you get weird moments like this. 80s comic book Marinette living a magical girl life.

Adrien's the same boat. As the female/princess role he's there to support. Give the hero a favor. Trick the villain so the hero can land a killing blow. Be helpful and pretty. Absolutely do not *inconvenience* the hero in any way though. Do not *require* anything other than rescuing. He must he in peril but unaffected by that peril. (Or he wouldn't he much of a prize)

It's a sign of the creativity and determination of the fandom that we weave a narrative out of these tangled priorities. It'd be nice if we didn't't have to do the creator's job for them though.

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marimbles

It was wrong for Marinette to lie.

Marinette did what she thought was right at the time.

Marinette was acting out of love.

It is unfair that Marinette has to bear such heavy burdens at such a young age.

Marinette’s lie is a huge sacrifice that causes her deep pain.

Marinette should not make decisions about Adrien’s life for him.

Marinette is inadvertently perpetuating Gabriel’s abuse.

Marinette is a good person trying to navigate a very difficult situation.

Marinette needs to come clean and try to fix her mistake. That is a sign of heroism.

Adrien has a right to know the truth, even if it’s painful.

Marinette’s lie will cause him additional trauma.

Adrien loves Marinette and will understand that she was trying to protect him.

Adrien has a right to be angry/hurt about the lie.

Adrien needs space to express negative feelings he has never been allowed to express.

Adrien has been controlled for his entire life and is now being controlled by Marinette.

Adrien’s story arc has always been about breaking free, and a satisfying conclusion to that story requires his FULL knowledge and reconciliation of all the painful truths of his life.

The love square relationship is and will be severely damaged because of Marinette’s choice, and for it to be repaired, all of these true statements need to be acknowledged and given proper weight in the narrative.

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buggachat

Ranking the texts that the Miraculous Class sent to Juleka after she ran to the bathroom to cry in Guilttrip

I'm not going to explain myself here

S Tier: An actual text!

Marinette is the only character that (explicitly) sent Juleka an actual text with actual words here. She apologized for the situation getting out of hand. Completely normal text. The only S tier.

Everyone else sent emojis. We're ranking emojis from here on out.

A Tier: A nice sentiment

Mylène, Nino, Kim, and Alix sent her hearts. Uncontroversial, sweet. Clearly telling her that they care for her. Alix chose a cupid heart, which is a bit of a choice, but I'll allow it.

B Tier: A bit confused, but they've got the spirit

Max's emoji is a bit too smiley for my taste given the situation (she just ran off to cry!), and Nathaniel's borders on flirting, but I think the sentiment they were trying to convey is clear enough, even if they missed the mark just a smidge. Still sweet enough for a B.

C Tier: Weirdly passive aggressive???

Sabrina, what were you thinking? Imagine someone in your class (who has helped bully you in the past!!!!) sent you this emoji while you were crying. I kind of love the audacity of it, tbh. I'm sure this isn't meant to be passive aggressive, so let's just hope Juleka knows that, too.

(Side note: we see later that Marinette ALSO sent this emoji? Presumably after the "I'm so sorry!" text? Marinette? ??? Why? I think this emoji actually undermines her text. Maybe Marinette should also be bumped down to C tier.)

And that brings us to last, and also least...

F(lirting) Tier:

Come the fuck on, guys.

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reblogged

every time a tumblr post mlb rewrite mentions the fact that they're taking out marinette's 'obsessive stalker' characteristics an angel gets run over by a steamroller and fucking dies

clarification on the sideblog: this is not me saying i personally think the show adequately addressed what they had set up in terms of her stalking behavior. this is not me saying she didn't theoretically violate people's boundaries. this is me saying I want marinette to be a villain protagonist. stop writing it out guys. MAKE IT WORSE

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