Why Lan Wangji Endures

I breifly touched on this topic before in this post, but I wanted to go more in-depth with it in combination with this post. When Lan Wangji says this:

—Chapt. 99: A Hatred for Life Part 2, boat-full-of-lotus-pods

...he is not making a statement on the morality of either his or Wei Wuxian's actions. In fact, his opinions about the moral righteousness of their actions are separate from his opinions on his clan's (and the greater cultivation world's) meted-out punishments. Why? Because the rules and laws of the cultivation world are now wholly separate from what is moral, and so Lan Wangji has matched Wei Wuxian in cleaving his sense of morality from what is considered acceptable by the status quo. Lan Wangji cannot confirm to Lan Xichen (or the Lan Clan, or the cultivation world as a whole) whether Wei Wuxian was right or wrong because they are not operating under the same understanding of "right and wrong." At the same time, Lan Wangji's (summarized via Lan Xichen's) speech above is not in conversation with his brother but actually in conversation with Wei Wuxian's speech back in Yiling:

—Chapt. 75: Distance, exr

Wei Wuxian was put into a dead-end situation where any act of self-defense or defense of innocents was an automatic crime. In the end, he experienced the ultimate consequence of death because his act of self-defense led to the death of an important individual, a death that was seen as "unforgivable" in the eyes of the cultivation world, unlike the deaths of Wei Wuxian and the Wen remnants. Likewise, Lan Wangji's actions in protecting Wei Wuxian against his clan were met with punishment, because even though he had good cause in rescuing the Wen remnants' only protector, going against his clan is "unforgivable" in the eyes of a society ruled by tradition and orthodoxy over morality. This is why Wei Wuxian says that the self must judge the self, and why Lan Wangji is following that creed by enduring the Lan Clan punishment while maintaining an unshakeable belief in Wei Wuxian's righteousness.

It was never about Lan Wangji doubting his or Wei Wuxian's morals. It was never about Lan Wangji putting love above righteousness. It was always about how Lan Wangji so much believed in Wei Wuxian's morality and the righteousness of his actions that he was willing to protect the man when the entire world said he was in the wrong, when his own family stood opposite him. And just like Wei Wuxian eventually accepted the consequences of his actions and used his last moments to attempt to destroy the Stygian Tiger Seal, Lan Wangji, too, endured being whipped 33 times by the discipline whip, then went on to rescue Wen Yuan and raise him and the other Lan disciples with morals so strong that they could transcend the mob mentality that their parents never learned to unsubscribe from. Lan Wangji's steadfastness in the face of the incredible hypocrisy and corruption baked into the system he lived in is why Wei Wuxian is able to resurrect into a world where the new generation can look up to him as a hero and a mentor rather than a scourge and a terror.

This endurance is Lan Wangji's ultimate act of love.

It's true that the cultivation world and the two of them were working on two different lines of morals. Where the society saw criminals and their protector, they saw tortured prisoners and innocence. I can't quite say if LWJ meant that his right and wrong was different from the society's right or wrong, or if he was talking about WWX in Nightless City, where he was clearly innocent, clearly provoked and yet everyone in attendance was attacked (and people killed).

But LWJ wasn't there at the beginning of Nightless City, was he? He just came when WWX was playing his flute. So damn.

I don't know what exactly LWJ was saying then, but he did mean to act as one in the eyes of the world. He just took WWX to the one place that could protect him and let himself be exposed to the judgement of the cultivation world, believing (or hoping?) he would be judged as acting in concert with WWX.

I say hoping, because I honestly don't think he thought WWX would die. Or at least, he thought he could convince or turn his clansmen somehow. Or maybe he was just grasping at straws to turn the tables on what would certainly be WWX's death with no intervention from someone else. He just had to be that someone else.

I think you place too much weight on Lan Wangji’s opinions of the cultivation world. He didn’t help Wei Wuxian in Nightless City because he wanted the cultivation world to judge them together. He did it because that was the man he loved and, separately, it was the right thing to do. What the cultivation world thought or how they would judge him was not a thought in his mind, because they do not matter. Same with the Lan Clan: Lan Wangji’s actions weren’t to convince any of his clansmen of anything, because just as he knows what’s right and wrong, so, theoretically, would they. The Lan Clan was willing to massacre the Wen remnants and stand against Wei Wuxian because they are a part of the same corrupt gentry that believes that the powerful should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they adhere to hierarchy and social niceties. There was no changing people’s minds by that, so Lan Wangji doesn’t bother. If his actions inspire others to be better people (like the juniors) then that’s fine. If others repudiate and ostracize him for it (like Lan Qiren and the Lan contingency of the second siege), then that’s fine too.

I don't know where I said his actions were due to anything but his convictions? Lan Wangji is a kind of person who doesn't care about judgements or opinions of the people. His actions are taken solely because of his judgement of what he thinks is right or wrong.

For example, he spoke up for WQ & WN when they gave themselves up. This was literally after Jin Zixuan died, after the entire cultivation world blamed Wen Ning and Wei Wuxian for Jin Zixuan's death. I think something like that takes an unimaginable level of guts or an utter disregard for the opinions of others.

I think, that Lan Wangji's actions were based very much on his own righteousness. But, I also think that while he did not have a high opinion on the cultivation world's righteousness, you are also not being kind enough to them.

There were many pieces of information that most of the cultivation world were not aware of, that made them dance to the Jin's tune. To be perfectly honest, the one person who had the most amount of information and the ability to turn the tides was Jiang Cheng, and his disregard for Wei Wuxian became pivotal in the Jin's plan to destroy him.

The Lan Sect honestly isn't that bad.

Firstly, when Wei Wuxian stormed in during the Jin banquet, he only asked for Wen Ning. And everyone was quite aware of the fact that the people who were broken out of the camps did not contain any elderly or young people. They only knew that WWX had done a jailbreak, stealing away all the Wen cultivators from the camp and going to the burial mound, which gave WWX the strongest source of power. Power he needed for... what?

Cultivation world is stupid and did not realize that WWX needed the power to defend himself from them. They thought he needed the power to build a stronger army or something, they didn't know, but if the Jins, who were the most informed in the situation said so, it must be so, right??

Second, the meeting was called so an explanation for Wei Wuxian's actions could be provided. What did JC do here? He said "WWX has always been like this, we'll promise reparations". Did he ever say if WWX was right or wrong? When Lan Xichen said that WQ had been innocent and never killed people, NMJ asked why exactly did she need to be treated differently from the other Wen cultivators? Did she expect special treatment just because they didn't know if she had killed or not? She was still on the enemy side. Had she done something for them, that she needed to be treated differently?

Here, JC stayed quiet.

No one knew that the Wens were anything other than young healthy cultivators. They knew about WN, WQ and cultivators taken from the prison. JC went and told WWX "no one could defend you during the meeting" when it was only he who had not defended WWX. LWJ, LXC, LQY had.

By nightless city, what exactly did the cultivating clans know? They knew that WN & WWX had killed JZX. They knew that WN & WQ had arrived at their doorstep, and that LWJ had stepped up to speak for them. That when WN went berserk, THE LANS died trying to stop his rampage. Someone needed to take responsibility.

The Nightless City seemed more like a show of support for the Jins than an actual promise of assistance against WWX, but they all had their reasons for being there. They did genuinely consider WWX as evil. No one defended him, no one told them that he wasn't evil and nor was any evidence given to the contrary.

Then the Nightless City massacre happened.

Honestly, unlike us, who have the omniscient viewpoint, people only got to know things due to people's gossips or talking about incidents. With so many people injured or dead, what could they do?

See, here you missed that though LXC was already quite influenced by JGY, he also wasn't a bad guy. The Lans, probably cause of LWJ, were the ones who actually took a lot of damage due to "WWX". And still, during the first siege, the Nie and Lan forces were so small that they might as well not have been there.

I feel like the impression the Sect gave to WWX, who actually did break all the rules all the time, made people think really badly of the Sect itself.

Honestly, most of the problems in WWX's first life happened because of JC and the Jins. JC was the one who was exempted from being attacked by the hundreds of corpses outside BM, who "took advantage of WWX's weakness to lead the attack". The weakness could have been that the 50 Wens were old and weak people, could have been his very presence which meant the corpses wouldn't attack him, would allow him to pass by unharmed and start killing the Wens and destroying WWX's inventions. Or it could have meant he knew that WWX was busy doing something like destroying his Stygian Tiger Seal and he would be weakened during this period.

So, no, I resent being told that the Lans were as bad as the rest of the cultivation world, who were also not as bad as your saying, but still pretty much the dirt under our boots, just not upgraded to complete shit until the Siege. The Lans were that bad because of LXC's unconditional support for JGY, and they were anything close to good at any point of time due to LWJ.

I only brought up the Lan Wangji is not caring about anyone else’s opinions because you ended your commentary saying that he might have hoped to save his clansmen’s minds through his actions. I may have misunderstood what you meant by adding that, but I def don’t agree with this added comment. The Lan were absolutely as bad as everyone else. No they didn’t go to the Burial Mounds settlement to verify the truth but… that was their negligence. Not following Wei Wuxian to the labor camp was Lan Xichen’s negligence. (The Qiongqi Path labor camp was also a joint-clan endeavor, but that's neither here nor there.) The Jin were spinning lies about Wei Wuxian and not only do Nie Mingjue and Lan Xichen close ranks around the lies, Lan Xichen praised Jin Guangyao for them in private while publicly contradicting Lan Wangji who called the lies out (proof). Lan Xichen is neither ignorant to or naive about any of the Jin's intentions nor specifically of Jin Guangyao's crimes (proof). It is a running theme that leads directly to his narrative punishment and subsequent character growth.

Nobody thought that Wei Wuxian was “building an army.” That is runaway fanon. Their grievances against Wei Wuxian were that he, a mere servant's son was more powerful and popular than them, and the lies they told to justify hating him was that he’d build his own cultivation clan that would overshadow the orthodox clans, thereby challenging their power and authority as the ones who must be given deference by everyone (proof from Wen Qing):

—Chapt. 73: Recklessness, exr

And even if he was building an army? The cultivation world sat still while the QishanWen built up an army and trampled over anyone they felt like. The same cultivation world sat still while the LanlingJin did the exact same thing directly after the Sunshot Campaign, despite having the power to do something about it before the Jin became unimpeachable (proof and proof 2). Yet Wei Wuxian is the only one they felt moved to go against. Gee, wonder why.

And even if them thinking that Wei Wuxian had an army was canon? They certainly didn’t by the time they showed up and slaughtered a settlement of impoverished farmers and threw their bodies into the blood pool (proof). None of the participants of the second siege are shocked by the existence of the Wen remnants crawling out of the blood pool, including the Lan. They knew. Somebody smashed Granny Wen's head in, and a bunch of other somebodys watched. The cultivation world isn’t stupidly “choosing to believe the Jin’s lies.” They were active and willing participants in the spreading of these lies with the explicit intent of restoring the classist hierarchy by tearing the “servant’s son” down from what they considered their rightful place on top of the food chain. Just like they all sat back when Xue Yang was running around massacring clans and only Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan stepped in to stop him.

Okay, it was a misunderstanding about LWJ.

Its true that evil intentions can easily start that mob mentality, and it was even more convenient to do so when there were SO MANY bad points against WWX. His demonic cultivation, the Wen prison escapee, his personality shift, his own Sect Leader unable or unwilling to defend him.

The problem was that there was no one willing to speak on his behalf, and when WWX did speak, he was brushed off easily with some reason or the other. The only time Wei Wuxian attempted to speak up was in the Jin banquet and he realized that their unreasonableness was because they knew and weren't willing to tell him due to their own malicious reasons.

The reason, I think, that no one followed Wei Wuxian when he went to the camps was so they had the ability to pretend ignorance. They already knew that Wen Ning was being being used as bait by the Jins as the Wens had done during Indoctrination Camp. They could infer that many cruel things were happening and no one wanted a part of that.

I think LXC wasn't a knowingly cruel person. He wouldn't be cruel knowingly, but he was unsympathetic, and did not really care about much, others than his immediate surroundings. One of the things that is very common between the gentry is a mentality of "we are different from them". The mentality that makes people look and go "oh we solved the problem, oops we destroyed the farming land? It's not our problem, whatever".

I don't think the cultivations world is that great either, but I think Lan Xichen wasn't a completely bad person either. He was the only one who brought up that Wen Qing was known to have not killed anyone during the Sunshot Campaign, but when NMJ spoke up, he didn't say anything.

The Lans have a mentality of "we are not involved", even LWJ has it, though not in a bad way. LWJ isn't nosy, while WWX very much is. LXC is also not nosy. He wouldn't interfere in the working of other sects or their issues.

If WWX went off into the burial mounds...How is it their problem? He still spoke up for LWJ's sake, probably. But I think he was mostly just not planning to interfere much. WWX kept rejecting his brother, so it was the Jiang Sect's duty to deal with him. But the problem is, he's invested in JGY who keeps bringing the other Sects in tow, and keeps involving the Lans and therefore the Nies.

Whenever JGY calls, LXC comes running. This is not to mean that it is LXC's genuine opinion. But he's kind of stupid, thinking he's helping his A-Yao. Showing him support and preventing people in the Jin Sect from bullying him. LXC had to keep showing more and more support to JGY until that support was what helped him become the goddamn Chief Cultivator, but even then (in LXC's eyes) he was still being bullied. Oh, what a poor, pitiful brother he had, even in the highest position he could acquire, he still had to listen to people insulting him and his mother...

So, I think LXC was incredibly stupid, but also, I don't think he actually meant harm to WWX until maybe WN killed his people (who he brought to show more support to A-Yao!) or maybe even Nightless City (where he once again brought people to show support for his A-Yao).

LXC is extremely hypocritical, because he doesn't care about anything other than JGY, and it seems that way because JGY takes advantage of LXC's character flaw.

Actually, there were more things that LXC knew. Sorry about not being able to tag the actual book conversations. But LWJ said he "heard" about Xue Yang being brought to the Jins, and who else but LXC would he have heard it from? I think LWJ scorned LXC for not taking a proper stance then (LXC: cause JGY was on the opposite side) and claiming neutrality instead of doing what a Sect Leader of a righteous Sect was supposed to do.

Remember that LXC stood against NMJ to save Xue Yang for JGY's sake as well, and the only reason why LWJ would have been able to state what happened to clearly without adding his own suppositions was if he was told so directly by one of the involved parties aka his brother.

Also... I'm not sure what you meant by contradicting his brother in public? The linked post is about LXC dissing WWX, basically.

And honestly, if we're talking about Sect Leader's negligence...That part I think, falls right onto JC, actually. I don't know why that parts is slipping through so much. JC was WWX's defendant and Sect Leader. If WWX does something wrong, then naturally, the Sect Leader must take responsibility and say "he will be punished for his wrongdoing after investigation". It is literally not the place of the other Sects to punish or reprimand one of their Sect disciples. It was JC's duty to tell them to fuck off. The Wens used to discipline other disciples often and it was referenced many many times in the novel, that it invited a lot of scorn.

You don't disciple other Sect's disciples. It's kind of okay if it's harmless ones, or you are in a position of authority over the one you're disciplining, but WWX was the head disciple. The only one above him were the Sect Leaders. No other Sect disciple had the authority to discipline him, not even LWJ, even if he was the romantic love interest.

WWX being that strong without a lineage... was a threat, that's true. But it wasn't the only reason. Remember JC told WWX that if he stood on their side, he was praised and if he was on the opposite, then he would be condemned?

Honestly, someone that's strong...Being a threat was the problem. The lineage was an excuse. It was because he wasn't controllable. If he was strong and he stayed within his limits, if he had married LWJ or stayed in Yunmeng, yeah, he'd still be scorned a bit, but not as much. Out of power, lineage, and righteousness, he had two, after all.

I'm not saying lineage wasn't the reason for them condemning him so heavily. He was condemned in the Sunshot Campaign too. But I think one of the reasons was his personality change showing exactly how uncontrollable he was. He wouldn't even smile and pretend to play along, instead demanding his will be met.

The lineage was always there. He was always the son of a servant. But he was still so fucking smart and charismatic that people would STILL open the doors for him. Not like JGY, who kept repeating his lacking lineage like a broken record. Actually, somewhere in the Guanyin Temple or maybe in the extras, I'm not completely sure, it was said that JGY actually scorned his lineage the most. He wanted his rightful throne, wanted to discard his heritage of being a prostitute's son. Unlike wwx, who embraced that his parents were a loving real couple along with their lineages.

Also, they moved against WWX cause that's exactly where JGY was leading it to? No one actually wanted to go against the Wens. They didn't have enough reason to then, because they thought they would be safe. Against WWX, the first thing they knew was that he was uncontrollable, was the son of a servant and scorned the power of the Sects (going against the Jin and all). JGY raised the amount of danger they were put in because of WWX and viola! Reasons were created.

I mean, I don’t think Lan Xichen stupid; he is just unwilling to see his loved ones in a bad light and, like you said, does not care about much else outside of that. Lan Wangji does speak up for Wei Wuxian, and that is the moment Lan Xichen contradicts him in favor of Jin Guangyao’s intentional slander:

—Chapt. 72: Recklessness, exr

But the reason I said that nobody following Wei Wuxian to the labor camp to verify the Jin Clan’s crimes is Lan Xichen’s (and everyone else’s) negligence is that Wei Wuxian publicly charged the Jin with corruption and amassing power to become like the same clan that they all just had to put down lest they be killed. This isn’t about “punishing another clan’s disciple,” this is about making sure another war isn’t gonna need to happen some years down the line! A person caring for righteousness at most and the safety of their people at least would have followed up. Lan Xichen does not. Therefore, everything that happens after to his clan is his own fault for failing to care past “I can’t leave, now, jgy got tea poured on him!” Just like everything that happened to the Nie Clan post-emergency conference is Nie Mingjue’s fault for willingly standing with Jin Guangyao’s lies as long as it meant that nobody would side with any Wen, regardless of their innocence. It's not that the Lan are particularly isolationist, either, but that the entire cultivation world is "it's none of my business" about inhumanity committed against other, less powerful people and only care if their loves ones or power is on the line, hence why it took the QishanWen finally just outright attacking the Nie Clan for the Sunshot Campaign to start, despite the fact that they had already burned down the Cloud Recesses and had killed 2/5 great clan leaders in living memory.

And following that thread back to the Sunshot Campaign: nobody criticized Wei Wuxian during the war except Lan Wangji. It is a whole commentary on the hypocrisy of the cultivation world and why Lan Wangji is different, because when everyone could benefit from his ghost path, they all loved it—in fact, they thought Lan Wangji was unreasonable for criticizing Wei Wuxian!—but when it was peacetime and Wei Wuxian refused to bow to hierarchy and play the part of the servant to their whims, then suddenly his cultivation is “a crooked path” and the yon tiger tally “needs to be controlled by other clans, not one person.” Lan Wangji was the only one consistent in how he treated Wei Wuxian’s cultivation, and that was because he was operating under the false assumption that Wei Wuxian’s change in personality came from his nee cultivation and not from a missing golden core and having to survive so many traumatic events around the time of its removal. Wei Wuxian doesn’t practice demonic cultivation, and he isn’t deemed “uncontrollable” because of it but because he refuses to “fall in line.” He is slandered as a “demonic cultivator” because people are jealous and covetous of his power.

As long as Wei Wuxian refused to become blindly loyal like Wen Zhuliu or morally repugnant like Xue Yang and as long as he didn’t remain a humble background ornament like Jinzhu and Yinzhu so as not to seem more powerful than their “betters” (the gentry), Wei Wuxian was doomed to never be accepted by the greater cultivation world. There was no “holding doors open for him despite his lineage,” because if there’s one thing rich and powerful people hate, it’s someone who’s better than them and won’t let them forget it. A