Dash of Mystery to go with Misery

So re: Qin Su's death, one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that she did not just conveniently kill herself due to her high level of distress, at the exact moment most convenient to a person she was super mad at.

Because, frankly, mxtx is not that shitty a writer. She doesn't sweat the details or logistics of things, characters are allowed to coincidentally turn up in the right place to make the plot work and so forth, but these novels are intensely concerned with character motive and internal life. Everyone does things for their own reasons.

People do what the plot requires, but a defining feature of her writing is that everyone is fashioned into the shape of the kind of person who would do that thing in this situation. Sometimes whole scenes or subplots exist mainly to put on display the underlying cognitive patterns that justify as individual choices the kinds of things stock characters routinely do in genre novels, for no reason than that they are The Type Of Character who Does That.

If Qin Su was going to commit suicide about the bad news, there would have been hints that this was the direction her thoughts were trending during the preceding scene, where we're introduced to her reactions. And there aren't.

Her primary reaction is anger. She's scared to death when her husband paralyzes her and puts her on his dismemberment table to interrogate later for the name of her informant. She is contemptuous of his caring almost exclusively about what all these horrors could do to their reputation.

There is nothing in the scene to suggest she would, given the opportunity to denounce him to the cultivation world, choose instead to escape by knife.

The interpretation of this sequence that says she Just Did That really annoys me, because it requires ignoring basically every single piece of information about the character other than the fact that Wei Wuxian always thought since they were kids that she wasn't very bright.

Furthermore, it would be out of character for Jin Guangyao to have knowingly arranged a situation likely to go so badly for him, and wildly unusual for him to get so lucky if he had. This man has shit luck normally.

The sensible thing for him to do, in a universe where Qin Su just conveniently opted for suicide instead of ratting on him, would have been to take the ten to twenty minutes of prep time he had to work with to disappear her the same way he did nmj's head.

This might have required killing her first, since we don't know where he put it, but while I'm sure he didn't want to do that I'm equally sure he was entirely capable. He had a convenient scapegoat handy to blame for her disappearance.

He had no reason to allow her to be visible and capable of independent action when his cavalcade of guests arrived. But there she was, dazed but unrestrained. And then...cursed knife time.

Super convenient! She's dead and can't blab, and lots of important people saw her do it and saw how horrified he was and are disposed to be sympathetic. Works out much better for him than the risk of being blamed if she disappears.

So Wei Wuxian's assumption that jgy set the suicide up and compelled her somehow is the most logical inference. Neither of their characters is really compatible with the other scenario.

If Jin Guangyao had actual mind control powers he definitely would have used them a lot, so the most straightforward version of what happened is he used some technique or drug that would confuse her and suppress her cognition, then deliberately put 'cursed dagger that preys on your negative feelings and makes you kill yourself' within reach just before everyone entered.

I'm sure if it hadn't worked, and she'd just kind of stared into the distance while he talked his way out of the unproveable allegations and weaponized Mo Xuanyu's bad reputation and so forth, he'd have been happy with that outcome too, since it would still have meant a lot of important people saw her alive and not freaking out, and then he'd still have been able to torture her for information later. (Again, something I'm sure he didn't want to do, but absolutely would have.)

But this worked out well and got rid of two exposure threats at once while buying him sympathy points.

Although considering his shit luck, I wouldn't rule out that his plan only went as far as sedating her so she couldn't make trouble and he could show everyone how not paralyzed on his murder table she was, and he'd forgotten he had an evil dagger that compelled you to kill yourself lying around in reach of a woman whose ability to exert force of will he'd just reduced to nothing.

And he wasn't expecting that result at all.

#side note op what's your source for 'wwx thought she wasn't bright ever since they were kids?' #I don't think they knew each other. I do remember him thinking she didn't seem that bright though

#I don't think she was dim. not the sharpest knife in the drawer but to be fair there were some very very sharp knives in there #she wasn't politically motivated and she trusted easily. so what #she was kind and had a strong sense of justice and she was *brave*. (@helendamnationx)

Okay tbh that was my very slapdash and ungenerous synthesis of three passages. (Old fan translation excerpted because I do not have 100 dollars for danmei.) This one, from right at the start of the confrontation with jgy:

And this one, from her first appearance earlier in the same chapter:

With this bit from wayyyyyy back in 'Refinement' when Nie Huaisang first appears.

From all this, and the parallel constructions of how 'everyone knew' Qin Su and Wei Wuxian's backstories adjacent to the second and third passages, I drew the conclusion that it's much more likely that Wei Wuxian's passing familiarity with Qin Su dates from the same before-age-fifteen casual social exposure alluded to with Nie Huaisang, than that she made any impression whatsoever on him during or after the Sunshot Campaign.

I also got the strong sense he regarded her as something of an intellectual lightweight, though admittedly he doesn't exactly say that, he just harps on the immaturity vibe. But like. We both got that feel, right? Right.

I think Qin Su is a very neat character with her one (1) entire actual scene of page time, which is part of why interpretations where she really just did that on her own bug me so much.

(The other part is that it falls into the pattern of readings that make the book dumber for the sake of exculpating blorbo lmao. If we want to excuse jgy from intentionally killing his wife the 'forgot about the evil dagger because he owns so much creepy shit' reading is right there.)

Also lmaoooooo some very sharp knives in that drawer. All of them however somehow idiots.

Daily reminder that when the Cloud Recesses got attacked, and LXC went on the run and JGY saved him and helped him hide, the Wens were in full power. They were the undisputed ruling clan. So much so that they could demand the other sects to send their heirs to them as hostages, and nearly kill the said heirs, fearing no consequences. And no sect had decided to try anything against them yet. They didn't think that ALL THE OTHER SECTS TOGETHER could do anything against the Wens. (And they truly couldn't if it weren't for Meng Yao.)

A little insignificant outcast like Meng Yao was FUCKED if he was caught hiding away THE Zewu-Jun.

And yet he did it! He didn't like...drag LXC to a doctor and said "I found this mysterious wounded man with an unknown identity. He's your problem now. Ciao. :)" No! He fully took care of him and hid him away and helped him rebuild the Cloud Recesses! (And listen, the Xiyao agenda of the show when Meng Yao specifically thinks of "Zewu-Jun" when he hears about the fall of the cloud recesses while he himself is bleeding on the ground and goes to save LXC after his banishment is very beautiful, especially for LXC. Imagine seeing this cute guy that you developed a crush on with one look and a total of 5 minutes of interaction before the guy left. And then suddenly in your worst & most desperate situation, the guy suddenly appears like an angel like you've manifested him and saves you and nurses you back to health and takes your hand in rebuilding your sect every step of the way. BUT! Book!Meng Yao didn't even know LXC! There has never been a tender hand touch and LXC gracefully saving him from an awkward and cruel social situation! He just saw a man and saved him out of the kindness of his heart regardless of the risks for himself!)

And LXC wasn't even the only person he saved individually. He saved Qin Su, too. if he's saved these two individually who knows if he had saved more people. Daily reminder that JGY is the kind of person who will go out of his way to help people when he can.

Let's not forget the watchtowers! Normal people that were too far from large cultivation sects were dying, and he used a *shit ton* of political capitol on pushing through an unpopular agenda that would help them! It was actually a pretty big risk for him, and he could have chosen to spend that political capitol in other ways that more directly benefited himself! And yes, some of his strategies did involve murder and so on, but the reason he used such extreme measures to take out his political opponents was that helping the common people was pretty unpopular with the cultivators, actually!

Y'all, he's WWXs foil for a reason, and it's not because he's an uncomplicated mustache twirler

What never came across in either translation or the drama is that JGY spoke in kindergarten teacher voice (the one people often say the use to pacify angry customers) almost all the time, esp during guanyin temple.

The reason I assume he does this (pardon me as I have not checked canon in a while) is because he adds a 呀 (polite lighthearted exclaimation) to the end of some of his sentences under REALLY TENSE SITUATIONS. The cultural equivalence would be saying "oh my..." at the beginning, but it's much more subtle so I understand not translating it that way.

some of the tags on this post are a goldmine

this also feels like a (somewhat) calculated gamble that NMJ is less likely to kill him if he's on his knees apologizing. that NMJ would find that kind of execution distasteful, especially in front of LXC who has already shown he is willing to oppose NMJ to protect MY. "i'm delicate and poor and very very sorry. wouldn't it be dishonorable to strike me down as i willingly submit myself to your fair judgement?"

the gamble works, but with the (unintended, fatal) consequence that this act of submission itself becomes suspect. is the apology just an act? MY isn't this defenseless, NMJ just saw that, so... which of his deeds, which of his words are genuine?

i'd argue that in this specific moment, where nmj has already demonstrated he's perfectly willing to swing a blade at meng yao's head even with lxc right there to intercede, meng yao is defenceless. he is stepping out from behind lxc's back and going to his knees in front of a man who he knows wants to kill him, and absolutely possesses the capability to do so; in this situation, is it actually wrong of him to play what cards he does have, in the hopes that it will convince nmj to spare his life? does making himself small and vulnerable automatically mean that his apology isn't sincere?

meng yao has no way of knowing that nmj won't try to strike him down again, but he does this anyway. if it's calculated to play on nmj's sense of honour, it is meng yao's only way of parrying a blade that would otherwise mean his death. also ftr, i personally think he's sincerely sorry.

#I don't remember if it's after or before this that he sees nmj's blade coming and just#closes his eyes and accepts it#he didn't even try to dodge#I think it's before this? when lxc then stops baxia with his own sword#which says something about his willingness to put himself in strike zone AGAIN to apologize#didn't he also do the same when nmj expelled him from the clan????#jgy is apparently willing to die by nmj's hand. until he isn't.#mdzs#also something something parallels with lxc closing his eyes and accepting to die with him in the temple (via @kn-rainbowblood)

this happens before that final blow that nmj delivers, which meng yao rightly expects to land on his own head, but which cleaves something else in half instead. and you're so right that this is the second time that meng yao voluntarily goes to his knees in front of nmj and is prepared to die by his hand. until, as you point out, he isn't anymore.

imo i don't think cql handles that change in jgy's mindset very well at all. in the novel it is clear just how much time and energy (physical and spiritual!) jgy has put into trying, and failing, both to regain nmj's good will while balancing the contradictory expectations and obligations placed upon him by his father. the stairs incident is explicitly where he pivots from working himself to the bone to get through to nmj, to deciding he's Done and ready to do some sworn fratricide. in cql it's very... wibbly-wobbly, nefarious villain music, which i think also contributes to, shall we say, less than charitable interpretations of meng yao's motivations in this specific scene in the scorching sun palace.

#Some other day I'll write something about JGY's fight flight freeze or fawn responses#And how this being arguably a fawn response does not make it insincere#And how it's fucking incredible the scrutiny this man is under that the audience is expected/made to ask whether he's sincere in this momen#Rather than acknowledging how fucked up it is that he's put in a position that requires a fawn response#It's important to remember where he is in his story right now- what he's already done vs hasn't done yet#This is before he's done ANY of the things fandom agrees are reprehensible#Only NMJ himself believes that of MY at this point (via @rejectedfables)

please don't leave the gold buried in your tags!!!

#zhu zanjin thank you so much for this shot#seriously it would have been so cheap and bad without his acting choices#the way he looks at lan xichen when he realizes he’s staying#ugh#the love and gratitude and regret and guilt#and that final flicker of determination#but also the shocked relief#he wasn’t expecting lan xichen to actually stay#there is SO MUCH in that look#and lan xichen’s eyes are closed!#he doesn’t see any of it!#it’s not for his benefit it’s just#he loves him and he knows he’s hurt him and he knows he doesn’t deserve him#and when has anyone ever shown remorse for hurting jin guangyao#this is very possibly the first and only time in his life#where the person who hurt him didn’t mean to and showed him#that they wished they hadn’t#and tried to take it back and make up for it#and it’s also the moment he deserves that consideration the least#and so he just#can’t#let lan xichen do this#but lan xichen doesn’t see any of this!#he just sees the outstretched hand and that pained face after he pushes him#this kills the man 

hey quick question @madtomedgar. how dare you?

#I’ll never be over how he’s just taunting xichen with that line#stay and die with me! betcha you won’t do it!#knew you wouldn’t-wait you’re actually DOING IT?#even after YEARS#of playing xichen and not playing him and just thoroughly knowing him either way#xichen can still take him by surprise by just being himself#and being kind#and jgy has simultaneously won and lost in that one second#he now knows just how thoroughly he’s fucked xichen up FOR LIFE#but he now KNOWS he had at least one person who genuinely cared for him#and most of all he absolutely knows he won’t actually allow xichen to die with him#idk man I still have a lot of feelings about this scene#even after dissecting it a hundred different ways a hundred different times ( @bilboo )

Completely and utterly baffling to see a take that so bluntly says Nie Huaisang is scarier than Jin Guangyao.

Nie Huaisang isn't scary because we know what he wants, why he wants it, and that he can be satisfied once it is given to him. His revenge even satisfies a SMART goal in that it is specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time-based. He wants Jin Guangyao's crimes exposed and he wants Jin Guangyao brought to justice before anymore people are killed and harmed by Jin Guangyao, and he wants this to happen within the next month, thanks, please see these anonymous letters for more details! And once all is said and done, Wei Wuxian even shrugs off any concerns about Nie Huaisang because this revenge was focused and reasonable and now it's all over.

Jin Guangyao is scary because he is a hollow of greed and ambition and entitlement that can never be satisfied. His goals require harming and killing people because his goals depend on people treating him like he can do no wrong, that he is the only victim here, that what he says is how things should go, and that no one should disagree with him, ever. He doesn't want to work with people, he wants to have power and authority over them, which is what he believes is his birthright as the son of Sect Leader. He complains about how others don't offer him even the barest amount of respect at the same time the respect he shows others isn't real and is just a veneer hiding a sharpened blade. He treats no one like friends or family or allies, just potential enemies or useful tools for him to use.

Nie Huaisang isn't scary because betraying his family and friends or harming the innocent wouldn't give him what he wants, so he never tries.

Jin Guangyao is scary because betraying his family and friends MIGHT get him a step closer to what he wants, and he never hesitates to sacrifice others for his own potential gain.

Jin Guangyao is scary because you can literally be minding your business at home while he comes over to poison you to death, or he hires you for your normal job and then orders you to fuck his father to death and continue fucking the corpse (and then he kills you after), or he frames your good uncle for murder and now you and your little children are going to be tortured to death via demonic cultivation. Whether you are his family, friend, enemy, or complete stranger, there is literally no escape from Jin Guangyao.

Jin Guangyao is scary because everything he does happens right under everyone's nose and even reportedly good people like Lan Xichen turn a blind to his crimes because they think it's for the better good. Jin Guangyao is scary because he killed everyone who opposed him to his face and thus there was only one (1) person left to use secrecy in an attempt to to stop him.

Nie Huaisang is only scary if you fuck around with him and his family first. Just don't betray him and poison his brother's mind and get his brother killed and you're good, yeah? But oh right! Jin Guangyao already betrayed and killed Nie Huaisang's one and only brother. That means there is nothing left for anyone else to worry about, because Jin Guangyao already hurt Nie Huaisang in the worst way possible and thus was dealt the worse Nie Huaisang had to offer.

Nie Huaisang might come across as scary for one isolated revenge plot that can never be repeated, but Jin Guangyao is scary because of the kind of person he was. Let's not get these confused.