“Within the novel of MDZS, no guardians (aside from Yu Ziyuan) are shown to talk to their children the way Jiang Cheng does.”
> nie mingjue has entered the chat
thanks for your reply! i can see how you’ve come to your conclusions too. to be honest i do suspect a lot of it comes down to cultural differences, plus some fundamental differences in how we approach analyzing works of fiction.
sorry for being kind of bitchy about the quotes, and thanks for providing more context/surrounding text this time. that’s really helpful.
regarding point two:
first, i'm glad that we agree that jiang cheng does not physically abuse jin ling. i'm also glad that we agree that, at the very least, jiang cheng and jin ling's relationship is not the same as that between yu ziyuan and jiang cheng himself.
second, regarding the excerpts from the second siege of the burial mounds scene you pulled: you are correct in your assessment that, in that scene, jiang cheng is much colder and harsher towards jin ling than the other parents are to their children. jiang cheng really could stand to not be so cold to jin ling in this scene, and it’s pretty sad that he isn’t. evidently this guy has been pickling in resentment, grief, and uncertainty for the past few years, and it has affected his parenting. he’s certainly not a perfect parent.
that said, i don’t think jiang cheng’s behavior here is necessarily representative of how he always acts? one has to remember that jiang cheng in the text of MDZS is at the most emotionally unstable he’s been for all of the past 13 years, since wei wuxian’s return means that all of jiang cheng’s wounds are getting dug open again. in this scene, not only are they in a highly dangerous hostage situation, jiang cheng is also already irritated with jin ling for having disappeared for the past few days, and is also dealing with the incredibly complex and nasty emotions that must have arisen from wei wuxian’s return and the public’s realization of said return.
i also just don’t think jiang cheng’s behavior in this specific scene is abusive. he’s being quite cold, but i wouldn’t call it verbally abusive.
third, regarding the following scene at jinlintai that you discussed here (here’s how it goes in the seven seas translation):
Jin Ling trailed out after Jin Guangyao, still not daring to see Jiang Cheng on his own. He hid behind Jin Guangyao and mumbled a greeting. “Jiujiu.”
“You still know to call me jiujiu?!” Jiang Cheng reprimanded sharply.
Jin Ling hurriedly tugged the back of Jin Guangyao’s jacket. Jin Guangyao, who seemed born to resolve conflicts, appeased Jiang Cheng thusly. “Aiyah, Sect Leader Jiang, A-Ling already knows he was wrong. He’s been fretting so much about you punishing him that he hasn’t been able to eat these past few days. Children are mischievous. You dote on him the most out of us all, so don’t be so hard on him, okay?”
Jin Ling hurriedly added, “Yes, yes, that’s right! Xiao-shushu can back me up, my appetite has been terrible!”
“Terrible?” Jiang Cheng scoffed. “You look fine enough; I doubt you’ve missed any meals!”
Jin Ling was about to talk back again when he noticed Wei Wuxian behind Lan Wangji and was instantly stunned.
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy
i don’t think i’ll be able to fully convey my own reading to you, but i read this scene quite differently? to me, nothing in this scene indicates that jin ling is being abused. instead, everyone in this scene - even both jin ling and jiang cheng theselves - seems to be used to this kind of scene and are therefore largely unconcerned. jiang cheng does not read to me as actively threatening; instead, he sounds like a Wronged Mother. istg my own mom has said 你还知道叫我吗 (you still know to call me mother?) in that exact tone of voice. i also don’t consider jin ling hiding behind jin guangyao in this specific scene to be indication of any particularly outstanding avoidant behavior, since in my experience, teenagers trying to get the other parent to defuse the first parent’s anger when the first parent is annoyed with them is quite normal. just as it’s normal to want to hide from your parent when you know they’re going to lecture you about not having done your homework.
i also think that concluding that jin ling has a more positive relationship with jin guangyao than he does to jiang cheng, simply because jin guangyao is verbally smoother to jin ling, is...a shallow reading of the text. first, one must consider that MDZS’s traditional chinese setting is highly patriarchal. in chinese history, traditionally only been the paternal side of one’s relations have had any staying weight; when a woman marries out of a family, she is considered to be a member of her husband’s family and her ties to her original family cut. if we follow traditional chinese convention, then, jin guangyao as jin ling’s paternal uncle should be jin ling’s primary parental figure; jiang cheng, jin ling’s maternal uncle, should not be in jin ling’s life at all.
yet, in the text of MDZS, it is repeatedly jiang cheng who jin ling goes to for help, jiang cheng who shows up for jin ling’s milestone events, and jiang cheng who jin ling shows his tears to. by contrast, while jin guangyao is verbally gentler with jin ling, he is also more distant from jin ling and does not appear to spend nearly as much time with or emotional energy on jin ling as jiang cheng does. even in a purely modern setting, one would already conclude from these interactions that jin ling is thus closer to jiang cheng; given the social-historical context of the difference between a maternal uncle and a paternal uncle mattering, the fact that jin ling and jiang cheng are spending this much time together is huge.
(this isn’t even to dunk on jin guangyao. he just was not emotionally attached to jin zixuan in the same way that jiang cheng was emotionally attached to jiang yanli.)
on top of all this, there’s also the fact that wei wuxian and lan wangji are directly in this scene. wei wuxian is repeatedly established to be someone who cares deeply about jin ling and who is quite intelligent. so i think that, if we were really meant to see this interaction as evidence of jin ling being abused, then wei wuxian’s internal narration would have commented on it somehow. even if wei wuxian cannot directly act in this scene due to being disguised as mo xuanyu, if he were truly concerned about jin ling’s wellbeing, he would find some way to divert jiang cheng’s attention. at the very least, he would begin to raise concerns about jiang cheng’s parenting with jin ling when he encountered jin ling one-on-one later.
that wei wuxian does not do this, then, has one of two potential explanations. one, wei wuxian is okay with jin ling being abused. two, wei wuxian does not think jin ling is being abused. given wei wuxian’s personality, option two is far more likely.
fourth, regarding your claim that the way in which jiang cheng speaks to jin ling is unique…..i found this claim of yours to be rather interesting, because my own experience is completely different. i’ve read and listened to some of jiang cheng’s original dialogue; to me, his cadence, word choice, and subject matter in speaking to jin ling are all incredibly familiar.
first, the way jiang cheng speaks to jin ling is just how many parents in my real-life community speak to their children. these children (my peers), just like jin ling, by and large know they can shrug off the acerbic nagging. and my peers who most brazenly talk back to their parents are usually the people most secure in their parents’ love for them.
i’ve also watched countless cdramas, both historical and modern-day, in which mothers (it’s pretty much always mothers) berate and nag at their children in the exact same way that jiang cheng berates jin ling. compared to the various mothers scene across countless cdramas, jiang cheng’s speech patterns are completely typical.
in both the cdramas i’ve watched and in real-life interactions i’ve observed, one of the primary indicators of the child’s sense of safety is how freely they talk back to their parents. if the parent and child are actively screaming at each other, then the relationship is probably not good; meanwhile, if the child is just quietly standing there while their parent dresses them down (as with the case between jiang cheng himself and yu ziyuan), that indicates the child may be legitimately scared of their parent. instead, it’s when the child is freely talking back to their parent and giving as much sass as they get, that we generally conclude that the child feels safe around the parent and secure in the knowledge that their parent loves them.
now, you also said that you have not seen any other fictional parent and/or guardian save yu ziyuan herself, both in MDZS and in other xianxia works, speak to their children in the same way that jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. to be honest, i find this incredibly difficult to believe. in my experience, this is simply not true. this claim is not even true within MDZS itself, since multiple other parental figures in MDZS - none of whom MXTX intends for us to read as villains - treat their children with equal if not greater levels of harshness.
the following section is quite long, so here is everyone i’m going to discuss: nie mingjue, madame jin, wen qing, and chu wanning.
first, just look at the example of nie mingjue and nie huaisang. nie mingjue is not nie huaisang’s father; however, given the large age difference between the two, the fact that their father died when nie mingjue was incredibly young, as well as the fact that nie mingjue subsequently ascended to the position of sect leader nie and made nie huaisang his heir, indicates to me that nie mingjue did play a heavily parental role to nie huaisang. this is corroborated by the fact that it is nie mingjue who repeatedly checks on nie huaisang’s grades at the gusu lectures, and who keeps trying (unsuccessfully) to get nie huaisang to practice the saber - both roles highly associated with (asian) parents. clearly nie mingjue is at once a brotherly and a paternal figure for nie huaisang; he can be considered to be nie huaisang’s guardian.
and nie mingjue, nie huaisang’s guardian, speaks to nie huaisang incredibly harshly. he regularly pushes nie huaisang to practice the saber and keeps an eye on nie huaisang’s grades at the gusu lectures; when nie huaisang weasels out of practice and/or is caught being lazy in some other manner, nie mingjue reacts with anger, which then translates into a verbal lashing.
consider the following scene, in which jin guangyao visits nie mingjue in order to begin playing the song of clarity for him, and during his visit gifts nie huaisang several fans. wei wuxian sees this scene through his empathy spell. (note that this scene takes place before jin guangyao has actually played any guqin songs at all for nie mingjue, meaning that, at the time of this scene, nie mingjue is entirely unpoisoned.) for clarity, i will refer to this scene as [Nie Scene 1].
One day, upon returning to the Impure Realm, [Nie Mingjue] entered the main hall to see a dozen or so gold-edged folding fans unfurled and lined up before Nie Huaisang. Nie Huaisang was fondly stroking them one at a time, mumbling to himself as he compared the inscriptions on each fan. Veins instantly popped on Nie Mingjue’s forehead.
“Nie Huaisang!”
Nie Huaisang immediately dropped to the ground, startled into a kneeling position. He clambered to his feet afterward in trepidation and stuttered a greeting. “Da-da-da-da-ge!”
Nie Mingjue demanded, “Where is your saber?”
Nie Huaisang stammered, “In…in my room. Wait, no. At the drilling grounds. No, I… Let me think…”
Wei Wuxian could sense Nie Mingjue’s desire to hack him to bits right where he stood. “You carry dozens of fans with you, but you don’t even know where your own saber is?!”
“I’ll go look for it right now!” Nie Huaisang said hastily.
“Forget it!” Nie Mingjue barked. “You can’t learn anything with it, even if you find it. Burn all of these!”
The color drastically drained from Nie Huaisang’s face. He scooped all the fans into his arms in a panic, saying, “Da-ge, please don’t! These are all gifts from someone!”
Nie Mingjue cracked the table with one slam of his palm. “Who was it? Tell him to get the hell over here!”
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy
in Nie Scene 1 here, nie mingjue speaks every bit as harshly to nie huaisang as jiang cheng has ever spoken to jin ling. frankly, the text speaks for itself. nie huaisang’s behavior angers nie mingjue; in reaction, nie mingjue berates nie huaisang, threatens to destroy his possessions, is described by the narration as feeling the urge to physically harm nie huaisang, and physically breaks furniture in front of nie huaisang. nie huaisang in turn reacts to nie mingjue’s actions with meekness, hesitance, and fear. if jiang cheng is verbally harsh towards jin ling, then in this scene (and other scenes like it), nie mingjue is at the very least matching that level of harshness, if not even exceeding it.
moreover, if jin ling is exhibiting avoidant behavior with regard to jiang cheng in the jinlintai scene you quoted, then nie huaisang is also doing the same in this Nie Scene 1 here, as the scene continues below:
Jin Guangyao strode into the hall. Nie Huaisang exclaimed in delight, as if he’d just sighted his savior. “San-ge, you came!”
It wasn’t that Jin Guangyao could appease Nie Mingjue’s fury—just that that fury was immediately transferred to him as soon as he showed up, leaving Nie Mingjue too preoccupied to scold anyone else. So it really wasn’t much of a stretch to call him Nie Huaisang’s savior. Overjoyed, Nie Huaisang repeatedly greeted, “Hello, san-ge!” as he hurriedly scooped the tableful of fans into his arms. Seeing his younger brother like this, Nie Mingjue was so angry that he now found it faintly ludicrous.
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy
just as jin ling is hiding behind jin guangyao from jiang cheng’s irritation in the section you quoted, here, nie huaisang also aims to use the exact same jin guangyao as a buffer between himself and nie mingjue’s rage. one has to wonder if jin ling’s behavior makes jin guangyao feel some nostalgia; perhaps that’s why he seems so unconcerned and amused even by his own standards in the jinlintai scene. again, this establishes to me that nie mingjue’s treatment of and words towards nie huaisang is every bit as harsh as jiang cheng’s treatment of and words towards jin ling, if not more so. therefore, if jiang cheng is verbally abusive to jin ling, then one must call nie mingjue verbally abusive to nie huaisang based solely on the above excerpt alone as well.
however, i do not believe that we are meant to read nie mingjue’s words in the above Nie Scene 1 alone as verbally abusive. while nie mingjue verbally berates nie huaisang and threatens him in the above scene, and while nie huaisang does react with nervousness and panic, nie huaisang does not run away from the scene: instead, once jin guangyao starts explaining that he’s here to play the song of clarity, nie huaisang immediately begins nosing into the topic with open curiosity and zero fear that nie mingjue is actually going to carry out his threats. instead of fleeing nie mingjue’s wrath at his earliest convenience, as someone who was truly scared of nie mingjue would do, nie huaisang only leaves when nie mingjue directly tells him to go away. in addition, while nie mingjue does threaten to burn nie huaisang’s possessions, the narration later on notes that this is in fact a regular idle threat that nie mingjue has never actually carried out, which nie huaisang also trusts that nie mingjue will never actually carry out. much like jiang cheng’s threats to break jin ling’s legs, i suppose.
more generally, nie mingjue is also not a villain. he may be overly inflexible in his ethics, and he may speak harshly, but he is also one of the people most strictly adherent to a code of ethics in the entire story. the fact that he loves nie huaisang cannot be challenged. the fact that nie huaisang loves him as well cannot be challenged, either: why else would nie huaisang embark on an unnecessary 10+ year plot of targeted destruction just to avenge nie mingjue’s death?
since nie mingjue’s speech towards nie huaisang is matching or even exceeding the harshness levels of jiang cheng’s speech to jin ling, the converse of what i said earlier must also be true: if nie mingjue is not verbally abusive to nie huaisang, then jiang cheng cannot be called verbally abusive to jin ling either. either both of them are verbally abusive in their everyday behavior, or neither of them are.
what’s interesting about Nie Scene 1 is that it contrasts a later scene also involving nie mingjue and nie huaisang, in which nie mingjue’s behavior is actively worse. i will refer to this second scene as Nie Scene 2. the story deliberately contrasts these scenes in order to establish that nie mingjue’s behavior in Nie Scene 2 is out of character, and that Nie Scene 2 evidences nie mingjue’s mental decline from the saber sickness and sheer rage from jin guangyao's behavior. in the following few paragraphs, i will discuss this Nie Scene 2, in which nie mingjue does indeed spectacularly flip his shit. i must preemptively establish, though, the difference between the above Nie Scene 1 and the below Nie Scene 2: Nie Scene 1 is one where [nie mingjue is behaving normally and is not yet affected by saber sickness], and Nie Scene 2 is one where [nie mingjue is behaving abnormally, is affected by saber sickness, and is infuriated due to jin guangyao]. this contrast is crucial to assessing nie mingjue’s behavior.
this Nie Scene 2, set at the unclean realm, takes place a few days after nie mingjue confronts jin guangyao over the issue of xue yang, is infuriated by jin guangyao’s refusal/inability to turn xue yang over for execution, and subsequently kicks jin guangyao down the jinlintai stairs. in this scene, jin guangayo visits the unclean realm again to play the song of cleansing for nie mingjue, and finds nie huaisang once again half-assing his saber training.
“Nie Huaisang, do you want me to cleave your head with this saber?! Get the hell back here!”
If only Nie Huaisang could feel, as Wei Wuxian did, the force with which Nie Mingjue’s anger blazed at that moment—then he would not grin as cheekily. “Da-ge, it’s time for a break!”
“You only just took a break one incense time ago,” Nie Mingjue scolded. “Continue until you master this.”
Nie Huaisang was still feeling complacent. “I’m never going to master it anyway. I’m not training anymore today!”
This was something Nie Huaisang always used to say. But Nie Mingjue’s reaction was unexpectedly completely different from what it had been before. He bellowed, “Even a pig would have already mastered it under my watch, so why are you not getting it?!”
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy
before we can really get into the meat of nie mingjue’s meltdown, let’s look at these preliminary lines of dialogue to once again establish nie mingjue’s previous, baseline, unaffected-by-saber-sickness behavior. here, nie mingjue is berating nie huaisang and threatening him because nie huaisang is slacking off at saber practice. however, instead of reacting with fear, nie huaisang responds with cheek and casualness, and very much does not obey nie mingjue. that nie huaisang responds to nie mingjue’s threats with zero fear and zero change in his behavior indicates to me that, historically, all of nie mingjue’s threats and shouting have been bluster, and that in the past nie huaisang has gotten away completely with ignoring nie mingjue’s nagging. this is supported by the fact that, in this scene, the narration notes that nie huaisang’s flippant replies are “something Nie Huaisang always used to say,” and also by the fact that, when nie mingjue actually does become angrier and push the issue, the narration specifically notes that this behavior is “unexpectedly completely different from what it had been before.”
unfortunately for huaisang, this time nie mingjue is really feeing that saber sickness, so his reaction now is going to be quite different. let’s continue with Nie Scene 2:
Not expecting this sudden outburst, Nie Huaisang cowered toward Jin Guangyao, dumbstruck. At the sight of the two together, Nie Mingjue’s anger surged even higher.
“It’s been a year, and you still haven’t mastered a single set of saber techniques. Complaining after spending a single incense time in the drilling grounds—I’m not asking you to be outstanding, but you can’t even defend yourself! How did the Nie Clan of Qinghe produce such a good-for-nothing?! The two of you ought to be tied up and beaten every day! Fetch all those things from his room!”
This last sentence was directed at the sect disciples standing by the side of the drilling grounds. Nie Huaisang was on tenterhooks as he watched them leave. A short while later, the disciples returned, having really fetched all the calligraphy, paintings, porcelain wares, and folding fans from his room.
Nie Mingjue had always gone on about burning his things in the past but had never actually done it. This time, however, he meant business.
Nie Huaisang panicked and lunged over. “Da-ge! You can’t burn them!”
Seeing this did not bode well, Jin Guangyao piped up too. “Don’t be rash, da-ge.”
But Nie Mingjue had already swung out his saber, engulfing the pile of exquisite things at the center of the drilling grounds in a towering, raging fire. Nie Huaisang let out a tragic wail and pounced into the fire to save them. Jin Guangyao hurriedly pulled him back to stop him.
“Huaisang, careful!”
Nie Mingjue struck out, and the two items of white porcelain Nie Huaisang had grabbed from the fire shattered to pieces in his hands. The scrolls of calligraphy and paintings had already turned to ash. Nie Huaisang watched, speechless and helpless, as all the beloved objects he had collected over the years, from all around the world, were consumed by the flames.
Jin Guangyao grabbed his palms to inspect them. “Were you burned?” He turned to the other sect disciples. “Might I trouble you to go prepare some medicine?”
The sect disciples acknowledged him and left to do so. Nie Huaisang stood rooted to the ground, his whole body shaking as he looked at Nie Mingjue with eyes that were gradually growing bloodshot. Jin Guangyao, noticing this, put his arm around his shoulders.
He said softly, “Huaisang, how are you? Don’t watch this anymore. Let’s go inside to rest.”
Nie Huaisang’s eyes continued to redden. He remained silent. Jin Guangyao continued, “It’s no big deal if they’re gone. San-ge will find more for you in the future…”
“He brings those things into the house again, and I’ll burn them all too,” Nie Mingjue said coldly.”
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 2, Chapter 10: The Beguiling Boy
two things. first, this is straight up worse than anything jiang cheng says or does to jin ling. nie mingjue insults nie huaisang - compares him unfavorably to a pig and says he should be beaten - with a level of cruelty that jiang cheng does not speak to jin ling with. moreover, nie mingjue destroys not just some, but pretty much all of nie huaisang’s art collection. jiang cheng has certainly never destroyed this many (or any at all) of jin ling’s personal possessions anywhere in the text. however you may feel about the question of whether or not jiang cheng abuses jin ling, you have to admit that what nie mingjue is doing here to nie huaisang is worse.
second, this behavior is meant to be read not just as shocking, but specifically as shockingly out of character. nie mingjue’s behavior here can in fact be read as abusive - however, it is also clearly not how he usually behaves. instead, nie mingjue’s poor behavior here is direct evidence that the saber sickness plus rage at jin guangyao's behavior a few days ago is taking a toll on his cognition and mental stability.
here, let me discuss what conclusions about nie mingjue MXTX intends for us to draw, and how those intended conclusions then compare to conclusions MXTX may want us to draw about jiang cheng.
in order to achieve the effect of highlighting nie mingjue’s mental decline, MXTX deliberately contrasts this Nie Scene 2 and the previous Nie Scene 1, in which nie mingjue berated nie huaisang as he typically did, without any mental decline involved. now, let’s consider the question of whether or not MXTX intends for us to read nie mingjue’s regular, non-saber-sickness-affected behavior as abusive as well. personally, i think no. nie mingjue speaks harshly to nie huaisang in Nie Scene 1, yes; however, if the contrast between Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2 is to successfully become stark enough to serve as solid evidence of nie mingjue’s mental decline, then it makes much more sense for MXTX to intend for us to read Nie Scene 1 as ordinary and non-abusive. from MXTX’s point of view, if she writes Nie Scene 1 as non-abusive and Nie Scene 2 as abusive, then the contrast between the two scenes becomes much more apparent, and the reader can immediately see what lan xichen and jin guangyao mean when they say that nie mingjue’s saber sickness is beginning to really affect him. however, if both Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2 are meant to be read as abusive instead, then this contrast effect is lost.
based on this reasoning about the deliberate contrast between Nie Scene 1 and Nie Scene 2, i conclude that nie mingjue’s behavior in Nie Scene 1 is not meant by MXTX to read as abusive, verbally or otherwise.
now, i have previously established that nie mingjue’s behavior and speech towards nie huaisang in Nie Scene 1 is every bit as harsh as jiang cheng’s behavior and speech towards jin ling in general. and as i said earlier, if jiang cheng is verbally abusive to jin ling, then one must call nie mingjue’s baseline + non-saber-sick speech, based on the above excerpt alone, verbally abusive to nie huaisang as well; if nie mingjue’s non-saber-sick speech is not verbally abusive to nie huaisang, then jiang cheng cannot be called verbally abusive to jin ling either. either both of them are verbally abusive in their everyday behavior, or neither of them are. and since i have just established that MXTX does not intend for us to read nie mingjue’s typical, non-saber-sick speech as abusive, then i must conclude that MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng’s speech as abusive either.
of course, one can read all of this and still conclude that nie mingjue has been verbally abusive towards nie huaisang right from the start, even without any saber sickness and mental decline involved. however, the point nonetheless stands that nie mingjue speaks just as harshly to nie huaisang as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. even if you must call nie mingjue's baseline level of speech verbally abusive, the fact that nie mingjue speaks like that at all already disproves your claim that only yu ziyuan and jiang cheng speak to their children like thus.
second, madame jin berates her son, jin zixuan, in pretty much the exact same way. consider this excerpt, taken from the phoenix mountain night-hunt; in this scene (in which madame jin had been trying to get jin zixuan and jiang yanli together), after jin zixuan and jiang yanli’s conversation is interrupted by wei wuxian, a confrontation between jin zixuan + jin zixun and wei wuxian escalates and draws the attention of madame jin.
Jin Zixuan was blank for a moment. “Mother! Why have you come?”
It was then that he realized that both his and Lan Wangji’s sword glares had shot into the sky. Of course Madam Jin would come after witnessing that from the observation deck. He glanced at the many Jin Clan cultivators who’d come with her.
“Why did you bring so many people with you? I don’t need you to interfere with the Siege Hunt.”
Madam Jin clicked her tongue. “Don’t flatter yourself. Who said I’m here for you?!”
She saw Jiang Yanli shrinking behind Wei Wuxian. Her expression immediately softened, and she went over to take her hands and gently comfort her.
“A-Li, what a state you’re in.”
“I am fine, Madam, thank you,” Jiang Yanli replied.
Madam Jin was quick on the uptake. “Did that damned brat bully you again?” she asked.
“Oh, no,” Jiang Yanli quickly denied.
Jin Zixuan jerked. He seemed to want to speak but held himself back. As if Madam Jin wasn’t aware of what her own son was like! Easily able to guess what had transpired, she immediately flew into a rage and loudly rebuked her son.
“Jin Zixuan! Do you have a death wish?! What was it that you told me before you came out here?!”
“I…!” Jin Zixuan tried, but Wei Wuxian cut in.
MDZS Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Peony for the Soon Departed
and then, a bit later in the same scene:
“Oh, please don’t be angry, A-Li,” Madam Jin pleaded. “Just tell me what stupid thing that foul, stubborn brat of mine has done this time. I’ll make him apologize to you properly.”
MDZS Seven Seas Translation, Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Peony for the Soon Departed
in this scene, just like nie mingjue above, madame jin is also every bit as scathing towards jin zixuan as jiang cheng is towards jin ling. of course, it is possible to conclude that madame jin also verbally abuses jin zixuan, especially given her friendship with yu ziyuan. but i don’t think we’re really meant to draw that conclusion. first, jin zixuan is clearly willing to try and talk back in this scene in a way that jiang cheng never once was with yu ziyuan. there is also the fact that madame jin is continuously kind to jiang yanli, and in jiang yanli’s later scenes with madame jin, she does not seem wary of madame jin’s interactions with jin zixuan in the same way that she was wary of yu ziyuan’s interactions with wei wuxian and jiang cheng. finally, we do actually know what madame jin looks like when she’s abusing someone, since she is in fact verbally and physically abusive towards jin guangyao - and that is very much not how she treats jin zixuan.
there is also the fact that the text goes out of its way to highlight madame jin’s grief at jin zixuan’s death:
The Madam Jin in Wei Wuxian’s memory was ruthlessly efficient and resolute…But right now, what Wei Wuxian saw was an ordinary middle-aged woman. She had graying hair at her temples and was dressed in plain white robes of mourning. She had no makeup on, revealing her ashen complexion and her dry, cracked lips.
…She drew a deep breath and adjusted her expression as if she wished to don her usual air of dignity.
But her eyes reddened before she could fully inhale.
She had never allowed herself to show the slightest hint of sorrow in front of Jiang Yanli. The moment she stepped outside, however, the corners of her mouth fell and her features seemed to collapse in on themselves. Her entire body started to shake.
MDZS Seven Seas Translation, Vol. 4, Chapter 18: Night Flight
this is a clear portrait of a woman emotionally devastated by her son’s death, of a woman who truly loved her son. now, it’s entirely plausible to conclude that madame jin truly loved her son and also verbally abused him. however, madame jin also is such a side character that she doesn’t even get her own name; her son, though a plotwise important character, is also given almost no characterization. as such, we can conclude that madame jin’s narrative role is less to be a complex character in her own right and more just to fill in the role of “madame jin.” in this light, [a woman who clearly loved her son but also was verbally abusive towards him] is far beyond the complexity required to fulfill this story role, and is therefore probably not what MXTX intended. meanwhile, if we really were meant to read madame jin as verbally abusive, then the emotions of this scene would become much more muddled than MXTX intended.
therefore, i feel confident in concluding that madame jin is not intended to be read as verbally abusive towards jin zixuan, even though she speaks to him just as scathingly as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. on top of this, there is also the fact that jin ling is even more comfortable talking back to jiang cheng in a way that jin zixuan clearly is not with madame jin - which indicates to me that jin ling also feels more secure around jiang cheng than jin zixuan felt around madame jin.
again, of course one can read all of this and still conclude that madame jin verbally abuses jin zixuan, since madame jin is established as a rather assholeish character (at least, to jin guangyao). however, the point nonetheless stands that madame jin speaks just as harshly to jin zixuan as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. even if you must call madame jin’s speech verbally abusive, the fact that madame jin just does this in the open indicates that, within the world of MDZS, speaking to one’s children with this level of verbal harshness is in fact culturally normal - it is not the jiang-cheng-specific rarity that you are portraying it as.
now let’s look at another example. jiang cheng’s harsh rebukes of jin ling are also rather similar to the way in which wen qing speaks to wen ning, in the few scenes they have together in which they actually speak to each other (it turns out that wen ning and wen qing don’t actually have that many lines of dialogue in which they’re just speaking to each other, since wen ning is either missing or an unconscious fierce corpse for most of wen qing’s scenes). obviously, wen qing is not wen ning’s parent or legal guardian. however, wen ning’s weak constitution and need for medicine combined with wen qing’s high ability and status in wen ruohan’s court does indicate to me that there is some power difference between the two; i find it reasonable to conclude that (a somewhat parentified) wen qing has probably been responsible for wen ning’s wellbeing and protection for most of their lives.
consider this dialogue, taken from the scene after wen ning sneaks wei wuxian and jiang chen ginto wen qing's supervisory office, and wen qing accepts that the latter two are going to be staying at her supervisory office in secret for a bit of time:
Wen Ning hurriedly nodded. “Thank you, jiejie!”
A packet of medicinal herbs was tossed in from outside the door.
“Put in some effort if you really want to thank me!” Wen Qing scolded from afar. “What the hell was that medicine you decocted earlier? Redo it!”
The packet of medicinal herbs smacked right into Wen Ning, but he still very happily said, “Any medicine my sister prepared is sure to be good. A hundred times better than mine. Superb, for certain.”
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 3, Chapter 12: Sandu: The Three Poisons
while this is just one line of dialogue, the acerbic tone here is rather reminiscent of how jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. scolding jin ling with a “what the hell was [that martial arts form / archery shot / talisman drawing / etc]? redo it!” and then throwing something at jin ling does seem very much like something jiang cheng would do. in addition, the fact that wen ning reacts with happiness and does not at all seem surprised or upset by wen qing’s rather harsh address to him indicates to me that wen qing frequently speaks to wen ning this way, that her scolding him in this harsh manner is normal and expected - this in turn makes wen qing even more similar to jiang cheng.
yet we are obviously not supposed to conclude that wen qing is verbally abusive towards wen ning. instead, her other actions indicate that she loves wen ning, arguably more than anything else in the world, and that he knows this. instead, the conclusion we are meant to draw here is that wen qing shows her affection to wen ning (and later to wei wuxian) through verbal sternness, scoldings, and harsh words. to be honest, this is also the conclusion i draw about jiang cheng. and part of the reason why i draw that conclusion about jiang cheng is specifically that the way he speaks to jin ling is so similar to the way wen qing, established to be a deeply loving character despite her prickly exterior, speaks to wen ning, wei wuxian, and her other loved ones.
now i have listed a number of MDZS characters - nie mingjue, madame jin, and wen qing - who speak to their charges with similar, equal, and even greater levels of verbal acidity than jiang cheng speaks to jin ling with. therefore, i must disagree with your claim that “[w]ithin the novel of MDZS, no guardians (aside from Yu Ziyuan) are shown to talk to their children the way Jiang Cheng does.” none of the characters i listed are meant to be read as villains. nie mingjue, for all his flaws, is repeatedly established to have an ironclad code of ethics; furthermore, the fact that nie huaisang enacted a 10+ year plan of vengeance over his murder indicates to me that nie huaisang truly loved nie mingjue and was devastated by his death. madame jin is kind of an asshole character (to jin guangyao specifically), but her straightforwardly kind treatment of jiang yanli and her emotional devastation at jin zixuan’s death both indicate to me that she truly loved jin zixuan. wen qing is a straight-up heroic character and no one can doubt how much she loves wen ning. and yet, all three of these MDZS characters speak to the children and charges under their care with every bit as much verbal harshness as jiang cheng speaks to jin ling. the fact that this many verbally acerbic, non-villainous parental figures do in fact exist in the MDZS story indicates to me that jiang cheng’s verbal harshness to jin ling is not particularly culturally unusual. furthermore, my analysis as to why none of these characters should be read as being abusive towards their specific charges also indicate to me that i should not read jiang cheng as abusive either, since his behavior matches theirs.
now, since you also said that you “have yet to see any other non-villainous parents or guardians talking to their children the way Jiang Cheng or Yu Ziyuan do in the xianxia novels I've read since MDZS,” let’s also discuss these other xianxia works. in general, i also find this claim very difficult to believe, because (in my experience as a chinese person), the relatively harsh treatment of children, to at least the levels of harshness established by jiang cheng and often exceeding said levels, is pretty much normalized and accepted in the genre.
first, physical violence itself against children is already a commonplace trope in chinese historical, wuxia, and xianxia fiction. just take a look at MDZS’s gusu lan, for one: wei wuxian straight up gets physically beaten for violating the gusu lan sect rules, and no one bats an eye. meanwhile, in MXTX’s SVSSS, the current peak lord of baizhan peak, the peak specializing in marital arts, is liu qingge; the story directly states that liu qingge’s style of “teaching” is just beating up all prospective disciples until they either figure things out or leave.
now, if we want to look at a combination of verbal lashings and actual physical lashings, we need look no further than erha’s chu wanning. chu wanning, the romantic lead of erha, is repeatedly established by erha’s narration to be a poor little meow meow so misunderstood by the world, who is socially unsuccessful because others don’t understand him, and who is also uniquely in possession of an ironclad, incorruptible code of righteousness. in other words, erha’s narration goes out of its way to establish that it loves chu wanning and that he is meant to read as straightforwardly good and heroic.
chu wanning is also both verbally harsh and physically violent towards his disciples, pretty much from the moment he appears in the story. not only does he speak to his disciples with every bit of verbal acidity with which jiang cheng speaks to jin ling - if not more, even - he also far exceeds jiang cheng’s behavior by also physically whipping the disciples of his peak with his actual spiritual weapon. jiang cheng, at the very least, never whipped jin ling with zidian with the intent to cause him physical harm. chu wanning, by contrast, is out here whipping minors with tianwen (one of his three spiritual weapons, a willow branch) hard enough to draw blood and to consign disciples hit by it to the infirmary.
and despite this behavior, the story of erha still ultimately concludes that he is heroic. while mo ran (the narrator and protagonist) and his narration do initially dunk on chu wanning as scary and overly strict, the narration comes around on chu wanning incredibly quickly after a certain spoiler moment - despite the fact that chu wanning’s verbal and physical harshness do not change. in fact, instead of castigating chu wanning for his harsh behavior towards his students, the erha story instead just treats said behavior as evidence that chu wanning is a huge tsundere.
(as you can probably tell, i’m not a huge fan of this book.)
all this is to say that, in xianxia and wuxia works, both verbal and physical harshness towards children under one’s care is incredibly normalized, to the point where it’s pretty much a trope of the genre. to put it in other words, this behavior is in fact “something both normal and acceptable in the culture,” or at least in the genre.
finally, let’s take another look at what MXTX intends for us to conclude about jiang cheng, jin ling, and breaking the cycle. i agree with your assessment that jin ling is incredibly brave and ultimately chooses the path of integrity largely of his own power. however, i do still think that children at that age are still heavily influenced by their upbringings in a way that adults are not; therefore, that jin ling is able to choose the path of integrity and forgiveness at the end of the novel speaks highly of jiang cheng’s parenting, since jiang cheng is the one adult with whom jin ling has the strongest relationship.
i do also think that MXTX intends the ending of the novel as it pertains to the juniors specifically to read as straightforwardly hopeful. as you said, the juniors are meant to represent a straightforward hope for the future. and i think that this hope is meant to exist without any major caveats or exceptions. it is for this exact reason that i conclude MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng as abusive.
because if MXTX did want us to read jiang cheng as abusive, she would have had jin ling decisively cut him off at the end of the story. the portion of MDZS’s ending dedicated to the juniors is not meant to be bittersweet or tragicomic; instead, the reader is supposed to be able to invest a straightforward and undiluted hope in the juniors. if jiang cheng was meant to be read as abusive, and then the story ended without jin ling cutting him off, then the junior portion of MDZS’s ending is no longer happy - instead, it becomes quite sad, since jin ling is still stuck with a parental figure who abuses him. therefore, the fact that MDZS ends with jiang cheng and jin ling’s relationship fully intact - that it ends with jin ling not cutting jiang cheng off, but rather running after him and nagging him about what it was he wanted to but did not say to wei wuxian - and that this ending is meant to be read as hopeful, indicates to me that we are not meant to read jiang cheng as abusive.
now, i’ve read some takes that claim that, postcanon, jin ling will try to distance himself from jiang cheng. i do not agree with these takes. for one, there is nothing in the text of the ending or the extras that indicates that this is something jin ling wants to do. instead, the novel ends with jin ling running off after jiang cheng; the extras (particularly the iron hook extra) then establish that jiang cheng and jin ling still have a strong relationship, with jiang cheng go ing as far as to storm jinlintai to ensure that no one tries to steal jin ling’s birthright. now, the text of the iron hook extra does state that jin ling tried to get jiang cheng to leave - however, as wei wuxian accurately figures out, jin ling did that out of concern for jiang cheng: he did not want people to start accusing jiang cheng of trying to take over the jin sect.
Wei Wuxian knew Jin Ling wasn’t willing to show weakness, so he said, “Go to your uncle more often if something’s wrong.”
“It’s not like he’s a Jin,” Jin Ling answered coldly.
Wei Wuxian was taken aback when he heard this, but then understanding hit him. Caught between laughter and tears, he raised a hand and smacked Jin Ling on the back of his head. “Talk sense!”
…Covering his head, [Jin Ling] hollered, “Why did you hit me?!”
“I hit you to remind you to think of your uncle,” Wei Wuxian said. “He’s not a busybody who likes meddling in other people’s affairs, but for your sake, he goes to other people’s houses to throw his weight around. In turn, he gets fingers pointed at him. And you write him off as ‘not a Jin.’ Surely he’d be bitterly disappointed to hear that.”
Jin Ling was stunned for a moment, then began to rage. “I didn’t mean it that way! I—”
“Then what did you mean?” Wei Wuxian replied.
“I!” Jin Ling said. “I…”
The first “I” was full of bluster, while the second “I” was deflated.
“I, I, I. I will help you say what you mean,” Wei Wuxian said. “Jiang Cheng may be your uncle, but he’s still an outsider to the Jin Clan of Lanling. He’s already intervened a few times to help you, but if he continues to overstep his authority in other people’s domains, it will become an excuse for others to denounce him in the future, which will cause him trouble. Am I right?”
Jin Ling fumed. “Duh! So you do understand! Then why did you hit me?!”
Wei Wuxian backhandedly smacked him again. “That is why I’m hitting you! Can’t you just come out with whatever you have to say? How does such a nice sentiment sound so offensive when it comes from your mouth?!”
MDZS Seven Seas translation, Vol. 5: Extra 5: The Iron Hook
this excerpt is also interesting for another reason: as stated above, the text thoroughly establishes that wei wuxian cares deeply for jin ling’s wellbeing and that wei wuxian is an intelligent person. given this and wei wuxian’s own background with yu ziyuan, wei wuxian should logically be able to recognize if jin ling is being abused, and also care enough about jin ling to intervene. thus, if jiang cheng really is meant to be read as abusive, wouldn’t our righteous hero wei wuxian just say to jin ling that jiang cheng is abusing him? if we really are meant to conclude that jin ling would be better off without jiang cheng, wouldn’t our loving hero wei wuxian tell jin ling to leave jiang cheng and free himself - something jin ling is entirely capable of doing, since he’s now the leader of lanling jin, an entirely different sect from yunmeng jiang? why is wei wuxian instead telling jin ling to go to jiang cheng more often? why is wei wuxian instead highlighting what jiang cheng has done for jin ling’s sake? why is wei wuxian instead telling jin ling to be more mindful of jiang cheng’s feelings?
this implies to me that postcanon wei wuxian does not think of jiang cheng as being abusive towards jin ling. and, given everything else i have written above, i think that we are meant to agree with wei wuxian here - just as we are also meant to agree with wei wuxian about pretty much all the other conclusions he draws at the end of the story. i think that this is a big part of why MXTX refers to jiang cheng as a “knife mouth and tofu heart” in her interviews.
as you might have noticed, this writeup deals more heavily with the thesis that [MXTX does not intend for us to read jiang cheng as abusive to jin ling] than it does with the thesis [jiang cheng does not abuse jin ling]. these are not the same thing. as i will further explain in my second response, you as the reader are free to disagree with the conclusions the author intends for you to draw about the events depicted in a story. personally, i do not think that jiang cheng is abusive to jin ling, verbally or otherwise - to me, his speech and behavior towards jin ling read as culturally normal. however, i do not expect to be able to persuade you to see things the same way. you are free to disagree with me and MXTX.
