@minaminokyoko / minaminokyoko.tumblr.com
Currently re-listening to the Dresden Files and this may be an unpopular opinion but I super dislike Susan. Like GIRL this story is not worth your life, CHILL OUT.
Welcome to the fold. I hate her. A lot of us hate her. She's extremely underwritten and annoying and she ruined Harry's life along with her own, so don't feel like you're the odd man out. A bunch of DF fans don't like Susan and I'm probably her biggest hater, tbh. 🤣
So we all know I am the Captain of the S.S. "Fuck Susan Rodriguez," but as I was driving home today, a thought occurred to me that I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on: What did/does Thomas think of Susan? Do you think he likes/dislikes her or is entirely indifferent to her? Do you think if the whole Red Court thing had happened he'd get along with her?
ok wow, I never saw this message in my inbox until now (you posted it a month ago apparently), so sorry for the super late response x__x;;;
I think Thomas was fairly indifferent towards Susan. Mostly it’s because he just never had much time with her, he didn’t get to know her the way he knows all the other important people in Harry’s life. It’s always bugged me that the fact Thomas threw Susan to the vampires in the first place was never addressed. Did he ever apologise? Did he ever feel guilty? What did Susan think of him? By the time Death Masks rolls around, they seem ok for the brief moments they’re around one another - or at least, there’s no angst or awkwardness - but I can’t help thinking there should be some bitterness on Susan’s part and guilt on Thomas’s.
I also think Thomas is best around people who can bounce off his humour. Molly’s great at that due to her peppy attitude, and I really like the dynamic between Thomas and Murphy - they have a pretty strong platonic friendship at this point, which is thanks to how they are both ride or die for Harry. I think with Susan, things would have been a bit weirder maybe? Because Thomas would likely be wary of how he acts around his brother’s girlfriend, and likewise Susan would be on guard around Thomas’s predatory nature, whether or not she was part vampire. I really think any joke Susan makes about finding Thomas attractive would fall flat, specifically because she’s already in a relationship with Harry, and it would be awkward as hell for Harry to overhear that kind of talk - we know how serious he felt with that relationship. Maybe if Thomas & Susan hung out more it would have become a more natural part of their banter? But knowing how sensitive Harry was/is about his relationship with Susan, especially after what happened post-Grave Peril, and post-Changes, I just can’t see it.
Also Susan’s experience with her Hunger is very different to Thomas’s, so I’m not sure if it’s something they could bond over either. Susan has magical coping mechanisms and a support group, while all Thomas has to control his urges is his own willpower and the memory of what he did to Justine.
I feel like I’m being a bit uncharitable towards Susan here, though. Like you, I’m not her biggest fan–IMO she’s too defined by her relationship with Harry in the earlier books for her to really come into her own, and she’s too much of a generic noir genre intriguing/sexy love interest character to develop unique quirks that would allow for interesting interactions with the more well-developed characters in the series.
Overall I don’t think Thomas would hate her, nor would he love her, but I think indifference is too strong a word. He’d probably care about her only because of her relationship with Harry. Susan is someone Harry truly loves, and Thomas would wholeheartedly respect that love, but he would not stan the ship the way he clearly does with Harry/Murph.
No sweat, dearie! It’s easy to miss things on this wacky website.
I agree. I think that it would’ve been a polite, but stiff sort of “I am in the same space as you and that’s about it; we don’t really need to chat and get to know each other” kind of deal between them for the reasons you outlined. And yeah, me and another Dresdenite were also of the mind that I think it’s an oversight of no one addressing what Thomas did, but I also think Grave Peril is the worst book in the series by far for me (and by “worst” I just mean the least enjoyable with far too many flaws and sloppy plotpoints and character moments, it’s not bad per se, but I like it the least out of all the books) so it’s possible Butcher didn’t know at the time how significant Thomas and Susan would be in the long run, so he never addressed if there would be resentment for how things happened. I also think Thomas didn’t know he was Harry’s brother by that point anyhow, so it was a move he made without the proper context of what would happen afterward and who it would be happening to as well.
Indifferent sounds strong, but I think it’s about the right speed. He certainly wouldn’t mind her, but I don’t think they’d at all bond the way Thomas and Murphy do or as you said, Molly and Thomas as well. He’d appreciate the way Harry felt about her and he’d certainly protect her if she had remained in his life.
Side note: “she’s too much of a generic noir genre intriguing/sexy love interest character”–Thank you for putting into words a great percentage of why I dislike her so much. I admit it’s not all her fault. Part of it is Butcher’s fault for underwriting her, and then the remaining percentage of dislike is how her presence affects Harry and her bullshit decisions in both Grave Peril and Changes that finish off why I’m glad she’s dead. I am soulless that way.
Tangent: That all being said, jfc, I am so ready for Uncle Thomas, it’s not even funny. I’m probably going to find time someday to write down some Uncle Thomas shenanigans, because there is no doubt in my mind that Uncle Thomas would spoil the ever-loving fuck out of his niece.
Harry: …did you buy her a freaking iPhone X??? And an XBox X and a PS4???
Thomas: What?
Harry: How much did that cost?!
Thomas: *shrugs* Enough.
Harry: I hate you.
Thomas: Whatever. We’re getting ice cream. Posse out. *scoops her up while “Damn, It Feels Good to be a Gangsta” plays in the background*
It'd have been a lot better if they'd just acknowledged it as lust and attraction, rather than love or a serious relationship. As much as Harry's failed proposal breaks my heart, I don't think that step felt like it would have worked out even if Susan hadn't become a vampire, because there's just too much imbalance in their relationship. Elaine, Murph and Luccio are Harry's equals and can hold their own, but I never felt that with Susan. They were both far too naive.
Yeah, I think that their “love” was a result of Butcher just being a younger writer then. I strongly believe that in order for it to be love, I need concrete reasons why they love each other. I should be able to tell you without a doubt in less than a minute why two characters love each other. I can’t do that with Harry and Susan. I really think it’s just lust that was mistaken for love. Sure, they get along and they enjoy each other’s company, but I think Harry wanted it to be love more than it actually was love between them. Sure, they had passion, but they weren’t compatible. They weren’t heading in the same direction in life.
Plus, Susan was massively underdeveloped. I can’t tell you anything about her. I have zero Susan headcanons. I feel like there’s nothing to her because all we ever see about her is that she’s nosy and sexy and that’s about it. There aren’t any layers to Susan (at least in the early books; I have to reread Changes before I make that a permanent assessment of her) and while she’s not the worst character ever, I just find her frustrating. I don’t like how Harry acts around her. I really don’t. She’s just not the girl for him, super-hot sex scene aside. As mean as it sounds, Susan was more of a plot device than a person in my eyes, and so while I dislike her, I am happy that she was able to give Harry some closure and that she had Maggie, whom I adore.
"Nothing says OTP like picturing your S.O. bashing someone’s head into a door. Marry her, Dresden. Do it now." 100% agreed! Also I'm kind of surprised by your vitriolic hatred of Susan (although it makes for entertaining reading XD). I think my main gripe with Harry/Susan is how there's no basis of love in it. We're just supposed to assume Harry loves her, based on Michael's urging him to confess, without actually seeing anything more than lust between them. (1/ 2)
You read my review?!
Well, yes. I wouldn’t say I hate Susan, but I rather dislike her for the same reason you just mentioned. Harry is absolutely convinced they’re in love, and I’m over here in the corner going, “Uh, are you sure about that? I think your penis loves Susan and you just assumed you do as well.” Michael was well-meaning, but honestly, up until that point, Susan was just a sexy distraction for Harry and little else. I like that she supported him emotionally during Fool Moon and the beginning of Grave Peril, but I honestly think there’s nothing to her. She’s not special. She’s just sort of there, and it’s not quite her fault. Jim Butcher was a younger writer then, and so he wrote a character whom you would typically see in a noir-style urban fantasy mystery series: the alluring beauty who always turns the hero’s head. He later went on to write some kick ass women who are complex and likable, but I feel like he never got around to doing that with Susan.
More in the next ask you sent! Thanks for reading my silly review. :D
