Sansa and Northern Independence

When people talk about the fight for Northern Independence, they always seem forget that Sansa was beaten as punishment for Robb’s victories. Sansa has bled for Northern Independence. She didn’t just lose her family to this war, she bears the scars of Southern oppression, of the cruelty of the Iron Throne.

#tbh this is a PERFECT example of one of the things that grinds my gd gears about this whole new #‘jon didn’t HAVE to bend the knee he CHOSE to bend the knee’ and ‘this has NEVER been a story about northern independence’ trend #because yes actually??? it has??? this has ALWAYS been a story about northern independence??? #it’s not the only thing the story is about but it has always been PART OF THE STORY whether you care about it or not?!?!?? #it has been part of the story since s1/book 1 when ned sansa and arya were made political prisoners in KL #and ned was beheaded while his daughters watched for ‘treason against the crown’ #and robb stark was named KitN BY HIS OWN PEOPLE and declared war on the lannisters #and bran and rickon were forced to flee their own home where they were betrayed and being held prisoner by someone they trusted #and Sansa Stark was held hostage and mentally and physically tortured and brutalized on a daily basis for her ‘family’s crimes’ at 11 #and arya stark was forced to flee and become a child soldier at 9 #and robb and cat were murdered by their own gd banner men bc no one could beat robb stark on the battlefield #and sansa became a child bride against her will to someone whose family murdered her own #and escaped KL only to become a prisoner in her own home married to a sadistic rapist who also helped murder her family #and sansa and jon went to war against the boltons to take back their home and the north #and their little brother was taken hostage and then murdered right in front of jon’s eyes #and sansa had to make a deal with the man who literally sold her out to the boltons so they had enough of an army to fight #and arya wanting to go home again only when she found out jon snow was in control of the north #the starks (and indirectly the north) have been fighting for the ENTIRE SERIES to regain their agency and sovereignty and self determination #NORTHERN INDEPENDENCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE STORY!!! #and what the story has DEFINITELY been about is that no one should be going around DEMANDING that people bend the knee #and give up their agency and their freedom #that no one is ‘born’ deserving to have that kind of power over their fellow men #that no one man is more entitled or more deserving of freedom than any other #and the fact that people seem to be arguing vehemently against that really confuses me!? #when jon bent the knee he didn’t do so only on his own behalf?? #he did so on behalf of hundred of other people who have been fighting the ENTIRE SERIES to get their independence back #people who have fought and bled and suffered and died just so they could have power over themselves and their own lives #but please! by all means! #continue to mock every one who is ANNOYED AF that they FINALLY got this long awaited pay out only to have it be given up and taken away #it’s really fun to watch (via @goodqueenalys)

#the starks (and indirectly the north) have been fighting for the ENTIRE SERIES to regain their agency and sovereignty and self determination

No they haven’t. They’ve been fighting for their safety and their family. Northern Independence has been a cause thrust on them, not a cause they chose themselves. Robb did not seek to be King in the North, he submitted to being named King in the North for multiple reasons, primary among them being the fact that he needed the North’s power to protect his family. Jon did not seek to be King in the North and he’s shown multiple times that he’s uneasy with the role. He submitted to being named King in the North (just like he did being named Lord Commander) for multiple reasons, primary among them being the fact that he needs the North’s power to defeat the White Walkers, just like he needs Daenerys Targaryen’s power and her dragons/dragonglass. Sansa has never wanted sovereignty. She’s wanted safety, and the current ruler in King’s Landing is a direct threat to her safety. Sovereignty is absolutely a path to their goal, but it isn’t, in and of itself, their goal.

Saying they’ve been fighting the entire series to get their independence back is a really strange misrepresentation of seven seasons of content, as is the mockery business.

And a reminder: these people don’t exist. The show is not a documentary. Being genuinely angry over the things fictional people do is guaranteed to end in frustration.

I agree with this so much - Northern independence was almost an accidental outcome resulting from personal choices and grievances, and hence I have been so baffled recently about all the talk of ‘betrayal’…

To me, I suppose this seems to be a bit like splitting hairs…

If Northern Independence has been the means the Starks have used to achieve the goals they have been fighting for: safety from outside influences and threats to their home and their family and their livelihood; if Northern Independence has been the “accidental outcome” resulting from personal choices and grievances through out the series… How does that change anything?

Narratively, Northern Independence has been the only way presented that the Starks could keep their family and their home safe. If it’s been thrust upon them, it’s because there have been no other options. If it’s been the resolution of grievances and the result of personal choices, it’s because it has helped to reach their desired outcome. The dangers that have been threatening them through out the series have almost completely come (directly or indirectly) from the Iron Throne and the people working for it (the Lannisters, the King’s Guard, the Boltons, the Freys, Petyr Baelish, ect.) What other way do they have to eliminate those threats then to remove themselves from the influence of the southern monarchy and the Iron Throne? (Obviously I know that there is the looming threat of Night’s King and the BftD, but that isn’t so much a threat just against the Stark’s safety as it is a threat to literally everyone and everything everywhere.)

To present independence (symbolized, in this case, by the Northerners’ choice of an elective monarch/KitN) as something that was thrust or inflicted upon the Starks and the North seems to be a confusing or odd way to present it for me. Freedom and independence aren’t things that are inflicted, or thrust, or burdened upon anyone. An individual’s safety and autonomy; and his rights to his person, his home, and his property; as well as a population’s right to sovereignty and self-determination; should be things people have by default, not things that they should have to work for or fight for or accidentally stumble upon or claim as a last resort. Honestly, to me, they feel like things that shouldn’t even be threatened in the first place; nor should they have to be sacrificed to meet other goals or needs if they are fought for and won. I know this is fiction; but even so, it seems to me that those principles should still stand, that feels instinctual. Whether Northern Independence vs. family and safety is the ends or the means in this case seems to me to be an unnecessary distinction. I understand how the distinction is being made and it’s a fair and accurate one, but at this point in the narrative they seem to be mutually exclusive; the Starks fighting for family and safety symbolizes the fight for Northern Independence and vice versa. No other way has been presented where one can be successfully achieved without the other in seven seasons of an eight season show.

I am not trying to argue about whether bending the knee was the right or wrong move in the moment or in the long run. I’m especially not trying to argue about whether or not it was a good move in the long run, because I have no idea about that. For all I know, the series will end with someone perched on the Iron Throne ruling as usual and everything will be all hunky dory. What I am simply saying is that this particular arc/story had seemed to finally be reaching the point where the Starks were safe from being controlled by outside influences  and/or threats from the monarchy and the Iron Throne. It’s a storyline I have been personally invested in with characters I care a lot about. So yeah, to have yet another obstacle presented to that when it finally seemed to be a storyline reaching it’s resolution while so many others remain up in the air, and have it be a seemingly needless obstacle given that Jon bent the knee after a contingency free offer of help, is narratively frustrating af for me personally.

arguably one of the most prominent catchphrases—for lack of a better word—is “the north remembers”/“the northeners will never forget” and y'all are really going around saying this isn’t about northern independence….sure jan

Also tbh someone arguing about something in fandom then being like "this is all fictional you know" really fucking irks me. You're engaging in deep conversations about it too. What the fuck. Either shut the fuck up and don't say anything or acknowledge that you're doing the same shit we all are, don't sit there on a high horse saying "it's all fiction 🙃" that's honestly so condescending and gross