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#the anti discourse – @lilietsblog on Tumblr
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Aremo Shitai Koremo Shitai Onna no Ko ni Mietatte

@lilietsblog / lilietsblog.tumblr.com

Wow, it's been like 10 years since I updated this. Neat. I've made a dreamwidth blog just in case tumblr dies. I think dreamwidth is neat. My username on Discord is Liliet#1061 (and no I don't intend to update it, they're asking but they haven't tried to force me yet). My username on reddit is LilietB. Read PGTE. Homestuck is great. Peace and love on the planet Earth. I'm Ukrainian. Wish us luck.
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reblogged

No seriously, why is it minors dni and not the age of consent? Wdym that I’m allowed to go out and actually engage in sexual stuff but then not allowed to READ about it?

(Sorry, english isn’t my first language, so this might not make sense..)

The age of consent is different from country to country. And it just got me thinking how it’s always 18+ plus minors DNI. But I realized that people at the age of 15 in Denmark are allowed to ACTUALLY engage in sexual actions so why is it always 18+ plus only, if people in a different country are allowed this kind of stuff? I guess it’s so that you don’t get any complaints from REALLY young people, I get that. But how many KIDS are actually on fanfiction sites? I really hope someone understands what I mean.

It just doesn’t make sense to me how a 15-year old is allowed to actually do these things but not READ about it.

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lilietsblog

It's because the Americans want to not get into legal trouble where their age of consent is in fact 18 (I think) and then everyone else copies them.

When I was a teen (age 14-16) I spent a lot of time on Russian-speaking RP forums. They always had something like "NC-17" or "NC-21" listed in the header, which was taken to understand "this is a place where we can rp sex / violence / etc" and never served as a means to actually exclude people by age. Like those forums were STARTED by mid-teens, they just copied the rating to show that this is a cool adult place.

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theothin

in the US, the age of consent varies from 16 to 18 while the age of being allowed to access porn is consistently 18, so it doesn't even require interaction between countries to come up. it's just kind of a mess

I started clicking on "yes I am over 18" buttons when I was like 14, and I know plenty of people did that at the same age or younger. and attempts to enforce actual age verification are. bad

Lol i posted that ages ago 😭✋

I think it’s no surprise that teenagers are sexual beings. I understand that it can be extreme to be introduced to that kind of stuff when you’re young and inexperienced. And I FULLY agree that we shouldn’t encourage porn to minors !

I feel like there’s a difference between video porn (Idk what the fuck its called), and smut. Smut is mainly written by women who therefore don’t (always) portray a wrong image of the female gender.

And I’m also just talking about fanfiction sites here..not full on actual companies or something.

When you’re on the internet you can meet all kinds of fucked up stuff, even stuff you weren’t even trying to find. It’s just obvious that there’s always a risk when going on the internet. Also wtf roleplaying violence I’ve never heard that before wtf 😭✋✋ oh and also i get what @lilietsblog is trying to say, but I’ve just seen a lot of “if you’re under 18, you’ll get blocked”. I understand that people have different boundaries and if its YOUR BLOG you decide that for yourself, but I just found it kinda ironic that as a 15-year old, where I’m from, u can go out and particepate in the situations, that u can find online too (legally).

Just my pov

ALSO yes my writing is a mess, sorry guys 😔

roleplaying violence is something youve never heard before???? what do you think DnD's whole thing is???????? what do you think LARPers normally do with their foam swords in the woods??????

(ofc written freeform forum roleplaying leans more heavily towards the descriptive, potentially in gory detail, so it's different, but still... violence is one of the most common things roleplayed out there, both in the tabletop sense and also in the erotic sense lmao)

and yeah i think those people who say that thing nowadays are just trying to cover their ass / shield themselves from harassment by antis who get reeeeally weird about this sort of thing. its not something they genuinely think its something they feel they have to say to keep themselves safe and unharassed.

(also I started watching porn at 14 and clicked all the "yeah im 18 pinky promise" without shame and I think that's an option that should be open to 14 year olds of all stripes as long as they click through a "this is for adults" first)

(it was actually the written erotic rp forum i went on that one time that made me feel uncomfortable, followed by me leaving peacefully and having no problems thereafter, having discovered some things about myself and my preferences. passively watching/reading is very different from roleplaying with a real alive person and is a much bigger distinction than visual / written in my experience)

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lazaruspiss

People know that the whole "don't portray [harmful action] because viewers might recreate it" thing is a rule for children's shows right? It's supposed to be shit like "don't show peppa pig playing with fire so we don't get sued if a kid watches it and burns their house down." Not like, fanfiction for adults.

prev i hope u dont mind me sharing ur tags bc yeah this is an interesting add on

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just want to contribute a little something to the anti discourse

so for a while now, arguments in favor of making whatever you want have felt kinda incomplete to me. I mean arguing from the principle of "it doesn't actually harm people while harassment definitely does" is fully valid and very true but that's not all there is to it

what does art do? what is good about art? what IS art?

art is a form of thinking

When you create or perceive art, when you engage with art in any way whatsoever, you are inevitably thinking about what is depicted in it. Your brain is making connections. You are gaining new associations. From conscious philosophizing to subconscious info gathering, you get Thoughts about it.

So this is the question then, people who want to ban every icky topic that makes you upset: do you want people to stop thinking about it? Do you want people to not think about sexual assault? Racism? Abusive relationships? Most of the time people encounter the concept of these things, said out loud and defined as such, in art. In real life you can have an abusive relationship for your entire life and have no clue that's what it is. People who do not experience Nasty Shit are almost exclusively taught how to sympathize with people who do by art. (Their friends and family who experience it are frequently too busy trying to survive said nasty shit to do an educational dance for them)

This is why conservative/oppressive political forces dislike art. It's for the same reason they push back on science that doesn't support their narrative: they don't want people getting ideas. They don't want their children to think anything more than what they tell them! That's why they demand everything "icky" be censored and combed out in the name of thinking about children: you wouldn't want your child to have an opinion on a scary, difficult and complicated topic that you didn't teach them, would you?

This is why the nasty icky art that upsets you so much not only deserves to exist, but needs to. "Don't even think about it" is not a workable harm prevention strategy. Imagine an architect about to build a bridge: if you tell them "don't even THINK about the bridge collapsing", would them actually NOT THINKING about it make the bridge more or less likely to collapse? We are all architects of our own behavior. And we all need to spend some time pondering over notebooks full of calculations of what to do so the bridge stands.

You might ask then, why fiction? Why porn? Why not serious philosophical tomes and psychology textbooks? Why disrespect the serious and important topics so? Why should people play with them?

Well, first, because play is essential to mental wellbeing. We all need to unwind and relax, and for most people philosophical tomes and psychology textbooks are just not something they can fit into their limited rest & relaxation time, not without sacrificing more than they gain in terms of ability to control their mood and behavior. People need to play, and if there's a way to get shit done while playing, well, that's just a productivity hack right there.

Second, more importantly, humans learn best through play. Bat the concept around, try it on like a hat, draw a smiley face on it, then erase it and draw a frowny one instead. Let it permeate your imagination, spread itself around through it, infiltrate your thought patterns. THEN you will remember it. Then you have the material basis to have serious thinky thoughts about it. Basis for comparison. Material for contemplation. Memories of engagement.

And yes, this includes being sexual with it! Sexual thoughts are not actually so sacred, special and separate that they would be importantly different from other sorts of voluntary play. If that's how people want to engage with the material, if that's the toy room their brain conjures most easily, well there's straight up just, nothing wrong with that, is the thing. From the point of view of education and serious thinky thoughts it's just a tumbler you put the thing in to be vibrated and tossed around.

Now, a crucial word here is voluntary. A classroom environment is a whole different beast, that warrants a whole separate discussion. Hopefully nobody out there is proposing to make it mandatory for middle schoolers to read abusive incest pornfic in class out loud; I sure as hell haven't heard this idea from "proshippers". In fact, privacy and comprehensive safeguards to make sure people ONLY engage with what they want are pretty key values to the abusive incest pornfic community.

Do people write abusive incest pornfic in order to make other people think deeply about it and engage with the concept? I mean, not always, and I would venture to guess it's not usually the primary motivation, though I'd guess it's A motivation for more people than you'd imagine offhand. But here's the thing: the fact the primary motivation is different is exactly what creates so much engagement and propagates the thinky thoughts. Few people like to think upsetting thoughts for their own sake on their own free time. Making it play is how you get it out to a wide audience (and what I mean by it, let's just say, the topic as a whole); and yes, abusive incest pornfics don't usually have that wide an audience. What audience they do have benefits from them, though. (Shoutout to Lolita, which did and does have a pretty damn wide audience, and is an abusive incest pornfic if you don't squint too closely at definitions and authorial intent)

And if someone's reference pool is so shallow they don't pick up on the "bad" part where things are bad, well... honestly, the fic community is their best chance to mend this gap in education. Because people who are into writing about bad things often love to not spare any detail in rendering how bad they are. People have figured out they are in a cult from researching how to write about a cult for a fic before.

The purpose of art is play, and the effect of art is thinking.

Thank you for your time.

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wis-art

"there are minors on this website and you're posting these inappropriate drawings" this sounds familiar where have I heard this kind of moral panic before, and why is it always queer artists getting singled out,,,,,,,

Telling this to parents next "there are CHILDREN in your house and you still have sex in it that's so irresponsible and disgusting"

"you mean you get naked every day and spray yourself with warm water and slather yourself with foamy slime??? Is this some kind of a fetish, you do know that children can hear you through that door right, so disgusting, I only care about the safety of CHILDREN".

This is how you sound when you say this type of shit, you sensationalize queer sexuality and make it sound like a disgusting thing to be feared, you are a transphobic piece of shit.

Last example reminded me of that one comics that english part of internet would really benefit from tbh

Translation:

"what are you doing, you damned soul! In front of children no less!"

"why did you bring children in my shower?"

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reblogged
Anonymous asked:

758648137243049984

The thing is, authors usually assume you already have some sort of moral framework in place before you start reading their books.

Therefore, I could read a book that features a romance between full-blooded siblings in which other people are framed as wrong for trying to keep them apart because "they just don't understand our true love" - and I can empathize with the way the characters are feeling in that situation -- get this -- WITHOUT applying that same attitude and belief into real-world situations.

Posting as a response to a previous ask.

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Anonymous asked:

Wait, isn't "anti" stuff more like "anti-pedophilia" and stuff? Like, you have a point about anti-porn attitudes, but from what I've heard just "anti" on its own means against stuff like kid porn and incest porn and legitimately f*cked up sh*t like that.

Okay!  So this, I think, is actually a great example of what I was talking about, and a really useful thing to understand.  (CW rape, child abuse, etc)

Smarter people than me have written much better essays about why policing thoughtcrimes is a bad road to go down, and I will probably reblog some of them next time they cross my dash for more context.  What I want to talk about is the trigger mechanism, the ‘oh, this looks like danger!!!’ immune response in how we look at different kinds of porn, and how that applies to anti culture.

Here’s the thing: I am anti-pedophilia.  I think that, for most people, that’s a stance that largely goes without saying!  Adults who prey on children are bad.  I’m also against incest; relatives who prey on their family members are bad.  Above all I oppose rape.  Sexual predation of any kind is bad.  In fact, I’d say that’s the most important item on the list.  There is plenty of room to argue about where the lines are between ‘adult’ and ‘child’ and how teenagers fit in the middle, and there’s plenty of room to get historical about the lines between ethically terrible incest, distasteful-but-bearable “aristocratic inbreeding” between distant cousins, and the kind of consanguinity that tends to develop in a small town where everyone’s vaguely related to everyone else by now anyway.  The core of the issue is consent, and it has always been consent.  Pedophilia and incest are horrific because they are rape scenarios where the abuser has far more power and their victim far fewer resources to cope, both practically and emotionally; because harm to children is, to us as a culture, worse than harm to adults, for a lot of very valid reasons; and because they constitute betrayal of trust the victim should have been able to put in their abuser as well as rape--but they are all rape scenarios, and that’s why they’re awful. 

These things are bad.  It is good for us to have a social immune response system that recognizes these things when they’re happening and insists we step in.  That is a good thing to develop!  It helps us, as a society.  It can help the people being victimized.  It’s the same reason educators and childcare workers in the US are all mandated reporters, why we do background checks on people working near kids.  These things happen, and they’re terrible, and it’s good that we try to be aware and prepared for them.  (Though obviously studies show we’re a lot less good at protecting the vulnerable than we’d like to pretend we are.)

The question is: why does that same social immune response trigger, and trigger so angrily, in response to fiction?

Anti culture is fundamentally an expression of that social immune response.  Specifically, it’s that social immune response when it is set off by a situation that, while it has some similarities to the very bad real-life crime of sexual predation including pedophilia and incest, is in and of itself harmless.

If you’re instinct is to flare up in anger or dismissiveness because I’m calling these things harmless, I want to ask you to just take a deep breath and bear with me for a bit longer.  What you’re feeling right now is an allergic reaction.

Humans tell and read and listen to stories about “legitimately fucked up shit” all the time.  It’s part of the human condition.  It’s part of how we process those things happening, not just to use, but to other people in the world around us.  It’s part of how we process completely unrelated fucked-up shit, playing with fears and furies and insecurities that we all have, through so may layers of fiction that we don’t even recognize them any more, playing with power dynamics in metaphor and making characters suffer for fun.  Aside from the fact that literally all stories do this to some extent or another; aside from the fact that drawing lines between ‘ok that’s good storytelling’ and ‘that’s too fucked-up to write about’ is arbitrary, subjective, and dangerous in its own right; aside from all of that, these stories are stories.  All of them. 

Even the ones about rape, about incest, about pedophilia.  They’re words on a page.  No real children were harmed, touched, or even glanced at in the making of this work of fiction.  This story, pornographic though it may be, is part of a conversation between consenting adults.  (And if a teenager lies about their age to consent, that is a different problem altogether.)

Stories in and of themselves, no matter what they’re about, are no more dangerous than a crate full of oranges.  Which is to say: utterly harmless, unless all you have to eat is oranges, all day every day, and you find yourself dying slowly of nutrient deficiency--which is why representation matters.  Or unless someone wields one deliberately, violently, as a tool to cause harm, and someone gets acid in their eye--which is the fault of the person holding the orange. And unless you happen to be allergic to citrus.

The key here is this twofold understanding:  First, the thing that hurts you can also have value to others.  Real, legitimate value.  Whether you’ve undergone trauma and certain story elements are straight-up PTSD triggers or you just don’t like orange juice, that story, those tropes, that crate of oranges may be somewhere between icky and fundamentally abhorrent--but we understand that that is still your reaction.  Even if you don’t understand how anybody could ever enjoy it; even if every single person you surround yourself with is as sensitive and disgusted and itchy about this thing that makes your eyes hurt and your throat stop working as you; that doesn’t make it true for everyone.  That doesn’t make oranges poisonous.  No real children were involved in the writing of this story.  It is words on a page.

But, secondly: the thing that has value to others can also hurt you.  Just because a story isn’t inherently poison doesn’t mean it can’t cause you, personally, pain.  That’s what a PTSD trigger is: an allergic reaction, psychological anaphylaxis, a brain that’s trying so hard to protect its own from a threat that isn’t actually present (but was once, and the brain is trained to respond) that it causes far more harm and misery than the trigger itself possibly could.  And no, it’s not just people with PTSD who sometimes get hurt by stories.  There are many, many ways a story can poke the part of your brain that says, this is Bad, I don’t like this, I don’t want to be here.  The story is still, always, every time, pixels on a screen and ink on paper.  The story causes no physical harm.  But it can poke your brain into misery, it can stir up your emotions, it can make you want to cringe and run away.  It can make you want to scream and fight and go after the author who brought this thing into existence.  It can make you hurt.

This is an allergic reaction.  This is your brain and body, your reflexes and instincts, trying to protect you from something that isn’t really happening.  And just like a literal allergic reaction, it can do actual harm to you if it gets set off.  This is real.  The fact that stories can upset you to the point of pain and mental/emotional injury is real, even though it’s coming from your own brain and not the story itself.  There are stories you shouldn’t read.  There are stories I shouldn’t read, regret reading, will never read, because they hurt me.  That doesn’t mean they’re the same stories that would hurt you.  That doesn’t mean they don’t have value.

And, finally:

If getting upset about stories is fundamentally an individual person’s allergic reaction, their brain freaking out and firing off painful survival instincts in the face of a thing that isn’t, in and of itself, a threat?  Then the anti movement is a cultural allergic reaction.

Fandom as a whole has a pretty active immune system, which doesn’t mean we have a good immune system.  We try very hard to be aware of all the viruses and -isms and abuse and manipulation and cruelty, both systematic and individual, that exists around and within our community.  We’re primed and ready to shout about things at all times.  The anti movement is that system, that culture, screaming and shouting and fighting at a harmless thing on a grand scale.  It wants to stop that thing, that scary awful thing that trips all of its well-primed danger sensors, at all costs.  It’ll swell up and block off our airways (our archives) if it has to.  It’ll turn on the body it came from.  It’s scared and protective and trying to fight, and it’s ready to fight and destroy itself.

Luckily, fans and fanfic and fandom and fan culture are a lot bigger and older than they often get credit for, and it’s not like these cultural allergies are anything new.  We could talk about shippers and slashers in the X-Files fandom in the 90s.  We could talk about the birth of fandom in the days of Star Trek.  We could talk about censorship and book burning going back centuries.  We survived that and we’ll survive this, too.

But god, does the anti movement my throat and eyes itch.  Man is it irritating, and sometimes a little suffocating, to realize how many stories just aren’t getting told out of fear of what the antis will say.  And that’s the real danger, I think.  What are we losing that would have so much value to someone?  What are we missing out?

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boreal-sea

I really think everyone needs to truly internalize this:

Fictional characters are objects.

They are not people. You cannot "objectify" them, because they have no personhood to be deprived of. They have no humanity to be erased. You cannot "disrespect" them, because they are not real.

I know this has good intentions, so I will just add the "how you treat them, even as objects of fiction, can speak about your own character, be careful out there"

Your addition is actually completely antithetical to my message. It is literally the opposite of what I am conveying.

Stop telling people to encourage the cop inside their head.

How you treat fictional characters, given they are entirely objects of fiction, does NOT necessarily speak to your own character, and you do not need to be "careful".

It is not dangerous to imagine dark things happening to fictional characters. It does not mean you are secretly a bad person. It does not mean you unconsciously want to hurt people in real life. It is not a "slippery slope" to doing bad things to people in real life. You cannot damage your brain or turn yourself into a bad person by consuming "dark" fanfic.

I can write tentacle noncon of my favorite character all day long and be a fierce anti-sexual assault advocate in real life because what I do in my head is not the same thing as what I do in real life.

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askinfresh

These tags were too perfect to not include

One thing that might help clarify it: in any fiction, no matter how dark, every real person involved is consenting.

The author and the audience are both choosing to be there and can revoke their consent at any point by putting the book down. The characters are not real, they are not being asked to make a choice because they have no ability to choose, but you do and you can leave at any time, for any reason. In most cases you as the author or audience also have context that tells you things will turn out alright in the end, or a reason to think they shouldn’t for this character. All the real people involved can expect a satisfying ending, and are not at any point being kept captive in a situation that will harm them.

Your ability to choose what fiction you take part in is a powerful thing, and you’re not doing yourself any favours by believing that doesn’t matter. If you don’t like it, sincerely, you don’t have to be there. Others who do like it are making their own choices, and those choices are separate from what they want to do in real life.

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dufferpuffer

I will never get over the fucking gall of the second person in this chain, coming in and saying something so... utterly tone-deaf. To like a terrifying extent. Not only in general, but on THAT post.

With the juicy little 'I know this has good intentions' too, WOW. Passive aggressive holier-than-thou... and then their message is 'I will judge you for how you play with your building blocks' jesus christ

What do they even mean by 'careful'...? Is that a threat?

hi, second person here - I'll admit, not my best take (in fact, I leave it up because I learned a lot from the responses lol).

'passive aggressive holier-than-thou' hurts but yeah.. I truly thought I was super clever for thinking about the framing of characters while still agreeing that they cannot be objectified. This was also wrong - you can frame your characters and their interactions however you want and this does not say anything about your character.

putting this not as a response but as clarification and possibly entertainment to prev if they haven't blocked me

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moniquill

I'm reblogging this version because I feel it's important to know that @nope-the-weeb grew from this. It's important to remember that someone's bad takes are not their entire being. People grow.

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Ultimately my response to “is Chilchuck child-coded” and the dizzying whorl of discourse it resides in is that anime characters don’t look like children, they look like dolls. There’s some overlap between the two categories; neither are likely to have body hair, for instance, but: 1) when many anime characters have some conspicuously adult features but are doll-like through and through, doll seems the better fit; 2) actual real life children lack many doll-like features.

I’m not a big fan of the doll-like look, it’s a large part of why I describe anime characters as mostly unsexy, but I think for obvious reasons it’s important to distinguish between “these creators are attracted to kids” and “these creators are attracted to idealizations that abstract away most of what makes people look like people.”

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lilietsblog

Chilchuck? Like, Dungeon Meshi Chilchuck? This guy?

This Chilchuck?

Please tell me you're talking about some other anime guy named Chilchuck who just so happens to look doll-like, and not the guy who had an explicit arc centered around him looking like a child to the rest of his party while being anything but????

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theothin

part of supporting transfems is supporting people who, as far as they or anyone else knows at the time, are straight guys getting off to f/f fantasies

part of supporting transmascs is supporting people who, as far as they or anyone else knows at the time, are straight girls getting off to m/m fantasies

TERFs and other shitheads act like those are bad things. they aren’t. there’s nothing wrong with either of those groups, whether or not someone turns out to be trans

this also goes for people into weird porn that gets accused of “fetishizing” trans people. who gives a fuck. some will turn out to be trans, and the others still don’t need an excuse

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fluxphage

i genuinely struggle with this as ive been fetishized by people irl from watching that kind of content- do you have any resources around deconstructing that feeling?

I don’t have resources per se, but a friend of mine added some good tags that I think might help with reframing it:

to expand a bit - for a given community, we can divide people into four groups based on if they’re respectful of boundaries for people in that community and if they’re into fetish stuff about that community. picking arbitrary numbers for them:

  1. respectful, no fetish
  2. respectful, fetish
  3. not respectful, no fetish
  4. not respectful, fetish

group 1 doesn’t have either concern. group 2 should know to keep it private and not say/do anything inappropriate. group 3 won’t bring up fetish stuff specifically, but they may say other inappropriate/obnoxious stuff because of that lack of boundaries. group 4 is the ones that specifically say inappropriate stuff about the fetish

under this framing, groups 3 and 4 are the issues - the people without that understanding/respect for boundaries, regardless of any fetish stuff. admittedly, this is an oversimplification - the reality is more of a sliding scale than a binary, and you could make a case that for some people, such fetishes could contribute to eroding the boundaries? but so could other contributing factors, and I don’t think there’s any good way to try to prevent the fetishes themselves. the way I see it, the best way to address the issues is to focus directly on better regard for those boundaries, so people will do the right thing regardless

does that help at all?

I think the fetish vs. not respecting boundaries is so important because a lot of time people talk about fujoshis and people into BL being fetishists, they’re talking about teenagers. Who are, as a group, not well known for their ability to respect boundaries and understand proper behavior, but are well known for their ability to grow out of it. Are they fetishizing people, or are they just neurodivergent, queer kids who don’t know how to express their enjoyment of something that’s already stigmatized?

This is also a place where the idea of “fetish” can also get blurry. Are you a fetishest for enjoying certain content just because it is “abnormal”? who decided that?

Gonna step away from gender for a more straight forward example:

The majority of porn of plus size woman is, pretty intensely, consider fetish porn. Often not just fetish but a pretty obscene (tho often very popular) one. Just cause it has a fatter person in it. Often not even particularly fat.

Are there gross chubby chasers? Yes. Absolutely. But there’s also a strong cultural push that this group, whether it be fat woman or lesbians or whatever niche we are discussing, is a weird outlier from normal and so enjoying it also makes you weird.

Which as then pointed out above makes it EXTRA fun if you are both wanting to consume said content and also IN said group.

yeah I think there’s a lot of things where similar framework can apply

based on recent notes it looks like this post has now reached TERF circles, which is mildly annoying but basically just comes with the territory of this sort of discussion

with all the attention this is getting from TERFs, I may as well elaborate on some parts of my stance where I’m seeing frequent confusion

my overall point here is that it doesn’t matter what sort of person is doing these things, only whether or not the thing is okay to do in general. as the above comments outline, there’s a big difference between fantasizing about a thing and making inappropriate comments to people about that thing, and the inappropriate comments are wrong no matter who’s making them. for people who are used to only hearing about those fantasies through inappropriate comments, it may be hard to believe, but it’s true!

I’ve also seen a couple of comments about videos of sexual assault. watching those videos is, again, not something people should do regardless of what sort of person they are. and also regardless of what sort of person is in the videos, for that matter. it’s concerning that there are people who seem to think that’s the only possible thing “f/f fantasies” could refer to

and for those saying they want me to stay far away from them - I assure you, I’m not interested in interacting with you either!

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Please return us to a world where Notp and squick are used for a ship you don’t like instead of just making up a load of bullshit about how immoral it is or w/e lol 

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sazandorable

a short selection of concepts and phrases that used to be commonplace in fandom and we’d really benefit from making that a thing again:

NOTP: the opposite of an OTP (One True Pairing). It is a ship a fan strongly dislikes. The word is a portmanteau of ‘no’ and ‘OTP’ and thus is not a contraction of any particular phrase.

Squick: anything that is a deep-seated, visceral turn-off. Squicks may be shared by many fans or be specific to one; one person’s kink may be another person’s squick.

YKINMKATO, or kink-tomato: Your Kink Is Not My Kink, And That’s Okay: used to indicate support for fannish diversity and to distinguish between disapproval or kink shaming and simply having different taste.

DLDR: Don’t Like, Don’t Read: a phrase used to warn against complaints about an aspect of fic or meta. A “live and let live” philosophy of fandom, which places the responsability for avoiding content one doesn’t want to see on the side of the fanwork consumer, rather that on the creator’s.

SALS: Ship And Let Ship: similar to the above specifically about shipping tastes.

YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary: a phrase used to acknowledge that any given individual’s personal opinion on the topic at hand may differ due to their own tastes, standards, values, experiences, etc.

As the OP points out, all of these crucially imply no moral judgment of what they’re designing.

(definitions lifted more or less wholesale from fanlore’s relevant pages)

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shatterpath

bring the healthy fun back to fandom!

If ever a time comes when I don’t reblog this when it appears on my dash, assume I’m dead

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I wrote a longass thing about kink and pride and how people are trapping themselves in a closet of their own making and getting mad at everyone else for not similarly engaging in normative sexuality but I deleted it. I deserve some kind of reward... dubloons perhaps

Hahaha okay I'll just say one brief thing [handing back some doubloons] queer people who happily engage in the whole "Eww i hate these icky degenerate other queers, we're normal unlike them" the gates of heaven are closed to you and you will never be happy defining yourself solely by the Aesthetic Du Jour and what you are Not (the caricature of queerness that right wingers have crafted) and I think deep down you know that too

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elecb0ogalo0

Call me crazy, but I don’t think the people that use Pride Month as an excuse to expose non-consenting adults and sometimes children to their fetishes and be gross in public are the arbiters of who goes to heaven and not.

I'm gonna be as polite as possible:

1) You have almost entirely imagined this group of people. They do not exist. You have fallen for a specific caricature of gay people as sexual predators designed by homophobic right wingers. I would take a second to pause and take a step back and wonder what basis in reality your fears about exhibitionists exploiting kids at Pride have.

2) Gross does not mean harm. Part of living in a public space means learning to distinguish between the two. The temptation to conflate it in order to lend moral credence to your feelings of disgust is powerful but it doesn't make it valid. People will see a gay couple chastely hold hands and be overwhelmed with feelings of disgust. They will see a gay couple give each other a peck on the cheek and think it's the grossest thing they've ever seen in their lives. Disgust alone can't be the sole measure of what is and isn't allowed in public spaces.

3) Sorry to dig up old discourse, but unfortunately there is a difference between "performing" kink and engaging in kink. A person in a dog mask at Pride is, most likely, not necessarily titilated by the activity or feeling aroused in a particular way. Same with people in leather. They're almost certainly just preoccupied with advertising their lifestyles to other queer kinksters in the same way that anyone in a rainbow tee is. Why do you think people wearing leather to Pride are secretly getting off to it? Have you ever spoken to them? Because you'll find their primary emotion, at least in my experience, is largely variations on a theme of "It's so fucking hot here and I wanna go home and shower and get a vodka soda." They're not like, secretly nutting. Seeing someone in leather gear is not "participating" in their kink any more than seeing someone in a rainbow shirt is participating in their gay relationship. You can't "not" consent to seeing someone in leather gear any more than you can "not" consent to seeing someone in a shirt that says like, "I love blowjobs."

3) Pride isn't "for" kids. This isn't to say kids aren't welcome; rather, as an event it did not originate as an activity or gathering catered towards kids. Its rules and goals were never formed with children in mind. I would again urge you to consider why you think Pride is an event that needs to cater to children and why you think a statistically significant number of them are attending Pride specifically with the children in attendance in mind.

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I wholeheartedly believe that all of the world's diaper fetishists, ageplay doms, littles, babyfurs, age regressors, and people who write aged up smut about bluey or whatever the fuck on AO3 for an audience of twenty people combined have done far less to harm children than literally any pastor

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tlirsgender

I think detaching disgust from morality is one of the keys to Chilling Out. You can find inner peace by being able to go "hm! Gross" and recognize if it's an actual problem or not. Cause if it's not an actual problem... it's not your problem 🙏 god bless

Every callout post that's like "she jacks off to Weird Porn! Isn't that gross? Don't you hate it?" I mean maybe but I have the same reaction to sour cream. Personally I'm in the habit of using my brain to determine if something is ethical/moral/etc or not instead of just my first knee jerk reaction, like, "is this actively harmful to anyone involved" is a more useful question than "do I personally think it's gross"

Also if you find yourself doing mental gymnastics to explain why something could hypothetically be harmful, potentially, under the right circumstances, it's probably Just Gross. Especially if the scenario you crafted involves a secret third party besides the Consenting Adults involved ??? You are making up a guy to be mad at, my friend

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reblogged

@the-great-ladyg Hope you don't mind I'm answering in a post, hun, I just have a lot to say about this!!

I think the reason Antis don't attack big name authors it's because Antis are "brainless". And no I don't mean this in the ableist sense, I mean this in the sense that they don't think for themselves. They're victims of mass media fearmongering, they like or dislike whatever is dictated by the general level of current tolerance.

Everyone has read big name author books with questionable themes. The thing is, nobody brings that up because it, genuinely, doesn't matter. So the public doesn't ponder about the nature of those questionable themes, and if they do, because the general public it's a lot more smart than Antis give them credit for, disregard it as simple fictional content and for what it is: As something that doesn't matter.

Now, because there's been such an upraise in fandom puritanism in the last few years ―I'm not sure why but what I am sure of is that there's not just one source of why―, people do stop and ponder about these things. And because there is a widespread fear and sense of "urgency" and "danger" about these things, Antis thusly are born.

Think of it as the tide-pod challenge a few years back. There most likely wasn't a huge number of kids who did it; a big part of the reason many did was because of the mass media reports about the subject. But Gen-Z got blamed and labeled and attacked for it just because there was a mass media panic about an issue that pretty much no one was seriously considering at the time.

Same with proshipping. The amount of proshippers who do genuine harm is nothing compared to the amount of proshippers who are just normal, everyday people. Mass panicking over this only breeds more hostility towards proshippers, who are in turn more reachable and brought up in reachable social media; i.e. TikTok, Twitter, etc.

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crabbybun

So I genuinely think that the reason for this phenomena comes from a misconception about the nature of publishing.

Got this theory off of reading a few threads full of what I call Anti Logic. These conversations contained statements that published material is somehow inherently different from fanfic, and further implied this is because published works are 'reviewed' prior to publishing. There seemed to be the idea that someone in the publishing chain had made sure the published material handled topics the 'right' way.

Which is bunk; the nature of the review & editing process is to make sure there's nothing glaringly missing; that it flows and is generally spelled correctly, etc. Publishers aren't controlling the material being published in that nature. Esp not in America.

But if you think the review process is about 'fixing' or 'correcting' what's 'wrong' with the work then maybe there is a belief that published works - due to the aforementioned review process - don't romanticize/glorify/etc. A third-party already made sure that wasn't the case. Fanfiction, then, would be a different beast because there's no review expert or hell hardly any review at all. That would make fanfic open to all the stuff books aren't subject to.

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vaspider

I genuinely think it isn't that deep:

The reason that small creators get attacked but nobody goes after the "big names" - nobody is demanding HBO apologize for Game of Thrones or that The Color Purple be taken down - is because small creators are close enough to hit.

I realized this when I went through it several years ago over the Lesbian Flag Drama in queer creator land - and just thinking about that makes me want to throw up - people were harassing me, my partners, my kid, was not because they thought that I was legitimately "anti lesbian." They weren't going after @simakai bc they thought they really hated lesbians either.

It was one hundred percent because we were close enough to hit. We were people they could actually bother in a meaningful way. They could hurt us, they could at least try to damage our reputations, they could fill our inboxes with harassment and tell my kid that I secretly hate her.

And that, genuinely, is what I think makes up 99% of why small creators get targeted. Groups like this know that big creators and big corporations are immune to the damage they can do, but small creators aren't. Even if they can't do anything that really hurts us in the long run, they can make our lives quite unpleasant in the short term. And they have absolutely harassed some people back into the closet, off of platforms...

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theothin

I think there's also this idea of, by hitting whoever is close enough to reach, they're contributing to The Cause, and even a tiny contribution to The Cause is a moral imperative no matter what it might cost. and I think there's this feeling that by advancing The Cause, maybe that can eventually add up to enough impact to take down bigger targets

this is, of course, all complete bullshit

for the record, I can think of at least one case where people will readily accuse creators and fans of larger-scale media of being or supporting sex pests based on the media's content: if the creators are japanese

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So Fox News ran a story about how they think libraries are turning into drug-infested sex dens and I am shocked, shocked that I was never offered any drugs during my 15+ years working in libraries.

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faeriekit

Where do they think the sex is happening?? Every single aisle is lit in that horrible LED lighting. The teens don't even make out here anymore.

As a state certified librarian I can assure you that you just have to go into your local library and ask if they're participating in the new Fox News Hysteria program smh. If they're not, you'll just have to renew your library card and use the fun and valuable resources they're offering right now, such as wifi hotspots, museum passes, dvd lending, mid level adult erotica, ebook lending, and printing! 😔

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mikkeneko

Jokes aside, here's a nice textbook example piece for any young folks who had not yet seen the "if a society agrees that a Thing is Bad, then people in power have a vested interest in labeling their political opponents as Bad Thing" principle in action.

With the recent run of censorship laws in red states, public libraries have proven a consistent stumbling block. They are not going along with the right-wing agenda of collective memory wipe and public gag order on topics of queerness and racial tension. Public libraries are becoming, increasingly, politically inconvenient for this faction.

And so, it turns out that public libraries are Full Of Sex And Drugs. Just absolute Dens of Sin and Iniquity. Shocking! Who would have thought?

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I found an interesting thread on twitter about how fandom puts the well- being of fictional characters above that of actual abuse victims and I wanted to share it cause some of y'all really need to read

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hsavinien

[ID: a twitter thread. Witch Hazel @ HazelMonforton: "it's pretty easy to advocate for fictional characters when they literally do not exist and therefore cannot disagree with you or question your advocacy"

peony @ p_e_0_n_y responds: "It's what I call the 'perfect victim complex'

People love the IDEA of helping victims, but they don't actually want to deal with real victims. Because a fake victim can be a tool for whatever idea or point of view you want to push, where a real person cannot.

A Schrodinger's Victim, who can hypothetically exist when needed to win arguments, but remains conveniently absent, silent, unobtrusive, and most importantly never counters the speaker's thoughts, opinions or ideas.

A real victim can counter your predetermined beliefs. A real victim could make you face their humanity and complexity, and disagree with your opinions about how to help them

A phantom victim cannot. A hypothetical victim cannot. They can be whatever you want them to be.

It's why people ramble on about helping 'starving kids in 3rd world countries', but won't do a damn thing for the poor kids in the neighborhood.

It's why people want to ban sex work to save sex workers but never listen to actual sex workers.

It's why a Columbine survivor's story was misattributed to a dead girl, because the dead girl can have a whole mythos and moral crusade made up about her and never counter it, like the living girl can.

It's why people would rather defend fictional characters and the hypothetical victims who maybe, potentially, *might* be hurt by fiction, and not actual victims of abuse and grooming who tell them they're {their} methodology and conclusions are wrong.

The folks angry that this is to 'justify pedophilic ships' while ignoring actual survivors who say not to equate fanfiction ship wars to their very real abuse are some {of} the exact type of clowns I'm talking about here.

Please exit through the gift shop." /id]

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reblogged

i can think of very few ways of engaging with final fantasy VII that are more uncritical and disrespectful than shipping cloud with sephiroth. what is wrong with you

shocking concept: people are aware that the ship is toxic and fucked up and super messy but thats why we like the ship. we saw cloud and sephiroth interact and instead of thinking 'i can fix them' we thought 'they are perfect the way they are'

well pack it in folks it turns out romanticizing psychological and emotional abuse against people with psychotic disorders is fine, actually

did you know that they are fictional characters? the "people with psychotic disorders" you are talking about in this context are FICTIONAL people. who are not real. nobody is being harmed by "romanticising psychological and emotional abuse" because... these are fake people. they are not real. you cannot harm fake people that do not exist

you know when you make posts about romanticizing fictional character dynamics that involve extreme amounts of psychological abuse, everyone can see it, including psychotic people who have faced abuse similar to if not worse than that which cloud suffers at the hands of sephiroth. yo do know this, right? you recognize that psychotic people face abuse like this and worse, constantly, in real life, right? you are able to recognize how it looks when you romanticize dynamics like this, yes?

why do you assume that peoples fictional likes automatically equates to their real life likes? i can enjoy a toxic problematic dynamic like cloud/sephiroth or will/hannibal BECAUSE they are fictional and not real. obviously i do not support that in real life?? do you not realise that fictional likes do not necessarily equal things people enjoy in real life? if i like watching a show where the main character is a serial killer, do you assume i support serial killers irl? its actually batshit wild to assume that fantasy brain thoughts are the same as real life morals and values. you would not have survived the snarry era of the internet

you know what this one was on me. how could i expect you to be able to recognize the issue in openly posting about the romanticization of abusive dynamics on the internet where anyone can see it, you don't even know what dead dove means

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lilietsblog

That's not what "romanticization" means. Romanticization means you think it's wonderful and awesome and romantic and you'd like that in real life. Enjoying fictional characters having fucked up shit happen to them is just called liking stories.

Like, when people KNOW that this dynamic is fucked up, what they mean by enjoying it is not "I would love more of that to happen in real life". It's "things like this happen in real life and I know that and I would like to safely engage with the emotions and thoughts this calls up in me through the lens of fiction". Because that's how fiction works.

And when you write a work / discuss a work where you call out exactly what's happening, in the tags, in analysis, in the body of the work, that's the opposite of romanticization. That's defogging. That's pointing at the thing and saying "it's the thing". This actually helps both victims of abuse and people with potentially abusive tendencies - it INFORMS people of what these things are like and how they work, how to recognize them, how to avoid them, that no, they're not crazy if they think they notice it.

Civilized society loves to shout down people piping up about common things with "um this is maybe wrong actually". It loves to say "no, how dare you say that, abuse is something that bad people out there do, we have none of that". It loves to define "wrong" as "other".

Fiction that actually explores these dynamics, how they work in first person, what it's like to be the perpetrator, what it's like to be the victim, what it's like to be a bystander, what it's like to be on the periphery of it, what it's like to play a more complex role - that's the antidote to this quietening. That's how you make people AWARE. It HELPS.

Sanitization and policing of FICTION doesn't. That's collaborating with the quietening, whether you realize it or not.

And yes, it's pretty normal for people to ENJOY this material. In much the same way as people enjoy adventure stories - it doesn't mean they think getting lost in the Arctic is enjoyable! It means imagining, in a safety of this-didn't-really-happen, how they or another person would act or think or feel in this situation, is healthy for the human brain and the development of empathy and theory of mind. It's stimulating and thus enjoyable, especially when there's a happy ending. Fairy tales don't teach children that monsters exist, they already know they do. Fairy tales teach children that monsters can be defeated.

(And tragedies, that's a whole other topic that I won't get into here. Let's just say that, too, has its very important purpose)

i don't think you know what romanticization means either. i also don't think you know what the problem is in romanticizing a canonically deeply abusive relationship because you don't know what romanticization means

Enlighten me then? What is the definition you're using and what is the harm done?

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