Aremo Shitai Koremo Shitai Onna no Ko ni Mietatte

@loghorizonfunfacts

so uh re this post of mine

i like the stuff i wrote here but i am nOT explainin well what issue i took with the original quote there

the thing is that the quote sounds like Shiroe Couldn’t Handle The Raid Because He Is Bad At Making Plans On The Fly

but that’s not what happened

i mean honestly i dont think anyone expected to beat that raid from the first time? yes it could have been less of a disaster, but given just how much unexpected shit was popping up, the only way they could power through would have been by sheer dumb luck, and i don’t think anyone expected that Shiroe would provide that

the normal scenario was ‘go into the raid, scout around, get beaten back, regroup and come up with plan’

and Shiroe couldn’t handle that! he wasn’t coming up with the plan when Henrietta slapped him, he wasn’t productively working on overcoming the obstacle, he was too caught up in the trap in his head

it was not the pressure of leading the raid that go to him, it was the pressure of having made the decision of going on the raid period. if he’d stayed in akihabara while someone else led the raid he’d be messing up paperwork

this is Explicitly Proven when once he gets THAT burden off his shoulders (note that people aren’t saying ‘it’s okay if this raid doesnt go perfectly’ like yes... everyone knows it’s okay already, they are addressing the prior decision thing) - he’s able to come up with a raid plan that’s so good, it doesn’t even stay within the dilemma

i know it’s a fine distinction to make but That Was What My Point Was

@loghorizonfunfacts​

i have actually tagged the entire saga of Me Reading That Post as 'liliet reads that one post', for your reading convenience!

...please don't kill me

okay I think I'll just check out of the remainder of that post because it gets more and more into "literally none of this gels with my interpretation and canon that I know" territory like I want to fight approximately every other sentence. nope im not doing that

also, THINKING ON THE FLY IS LITERALLY WHAT SHIROE DOES BEST THAT IS HIS ENTIRE FULL CONTROL COMBAT ENCOUNTER THING JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

and obviously i disagree with 99% of the ~Shiroe's childhood is why he has trouble connecting with people~ analysis bc like yeah... he definitely has issues bc of that, but also he's one of the most autistic people i've ever seen in the entire fiction so

yeah, so from this entire passage this is the only part i'm going to acknowledge. i literally noped out of the visual novels because of Super Het Shiroe All About The Gender

to explain the entire anime, the passage I selected is wholly sufficient

Amen. Just, amen.

...in my aro ace interpretation, I bet he actually realizes Minori has a crush on him. He expects that he would Feel Something Reciprocation Wise about women his own age and older being interested in him, and that's why he can't figure out that that's what's happening with Akatsuki, because he just. isn't feeling it and that clearly rules out the possibility for his subconscious

but Minori is Basically A Baby, and he very much does not think he's supposed to react to her crush with anything other than a deep ??? What Do

like, this is not really... a romantic situation he's in, it's a romantic situation SHE'S in perfectly solo and he's basically tangential, so he would be able to recognize it

...yes, it does in fact have to be that complicated sorry i dont make the rules

(i totally do)

so im just saying, you are partly Not Wrong but also idgaf if the source material doesn’t fully support it Shiroe will forever be aro ace in my heart

its... much easier to recognize romantic situations others are in than the one you are in yourself

its a thing

what? oh come on SHIROE is the one who can't make plans on the fly??? the Full Control Combat Encounter guy??? no battle plan survives first altercation with the enemy adjusting plans to situation as it develops IS LITERALLY EXPLICITLY REPEATEDLY DESCRIBED AS SHIROE'S STRONGEST SUIT

no, the reason Shiroe starts making Oh So Fucking Many Mistakes is that he's distracted

and the reason he's distracted is that he's overextended

this was bound to happen sooner or later, and that's why in my liveblog I started yelling SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE SHIROE A FUCKING BREAK from like... two thirds into season one. he took on too much, and he was coping and bearing it bc he knew what he was signing up for

he was the kind of camel who was ready for straws to be piled on indefinitely, but what he got all of a sudden was like. another camel approximately

there's that discussion at the Round Table where people are arguing about whether they should fight back and destroy the antenna or not and they can't come to any conclusion because either one of them is not a decision they can take back and one option is RIDICULOUSLY SHITTY in the short term while the other is OVERWHELMINGLY DEPRESSING in the long term

and then they turn over to Shiroe and say 'onii-san pls solve this impossible dilemma for us right now immediately' and he... can't. he's also caught up in this. he knows as a tactician to take care of the short term first and think about the long term later but the OVERWHELMING SHITTINESS of the losing option makes this decision shaky and

and of course everyone relies on him to avoid that overwhelming shittiness! this one time, it's not a task that Shiroe can willingly take on or discard, this one time it's On Him whether he wants it or not. whatever he chooses, everyone's going to expect BOTH that he protects the people AND that he keeps the option of going home eventually open

and he can't do this!!! he has no clue how to do this!!! he's leading the operation to destroy the antenna but he also doesn't want it to actually succeed and he keeps running the losing scenarios in his head and that's what keeps him from actually focusing on what he's trying to do... because his heart isn't in it, he doesn't really want to do it!!! it's wrong, he locked himself into a wrong direction, because at that one moment he was asked a binary question and couldn't not give a binary answer, and now it's His Responsibility to stick by it but also to Avoid The Negative Consequences and it's literally impossible???

and the reason Shiroe got over it and found a third option eventually was not because Henrietta slapped him, that was just to momentarily get his attention

it was because Minori stepped up and said: no, we don't expect this of you. that is unfair and too much and we don't put this on you. we'll be okay. you can mess up, you are allowed to. this might not be the right decision that you are making but we give you the right to that mistake and we will share the responsibility if that happens. do what you think is right, we are by your side and we know what we are doing, too

that's the incredibly emotionally powerful moment of the series and you know what im going to just rewatch it

(man i love having the episodes downloaded to my pc... mmm... what a good feeling to be able to just. access them in a couple of clicks...)

okay im just going to transcribe it here because its Super Key

not just Minori but her whole party runs up to Distraught Vulnerable Shiroe With His Glasses Knocked Off (what a metaphor for his emotional state at the moment y'all)

Minori: "Um, Shiroe... We're staying in this world! I know what you're thinking. You're worried that if we destroy the antenna, we won't be able to go home, right?" Isuzu: "It isn't that I don't want to go home, but I wasn't really sure about it. If I can have time to think it over, that's just as good." Serara: "It doesn't mean we'll never get home, does it?" Touya: "And we can't just leave the People of the Land." (as Rudy is looking at him with this disbelief like 'i can't believe i actually didn't expect this' man i love the depth of this) "It didn't go well for us in Safil... Even if they thank us and say we saved them, some people will never make it home." (as the camera pans over the rest of the raid party and they all smile and are obviously agreeing) "I don't know if we'll be able to go home. But being able to go home makes you happy, right? So we need to make everyone happy! We can go home after we do that!" (and that's when it cuts to Shiroe doing a tiny gasp... and then to Rudy, the one person who's firmly got a side in this dilemma even if he didn't really pitch in with his opinion before) Rudy: "You lack resolve, guildmaster." Serara: "Just focus on what you can do!" Minori: "I don't know what I can do. But I won't let you bear the burden alone. We... I will bear it with you! So..." (CUT TO SHIROE MAKING THE BEST FACE EVER I’LL JUST... UPLOAD IT LATER BC MY INTERENT IS BEING AN ASS... ANYWAY) (CUT TO THE SENIOR PARTY MEMBERS) Naotsugu: "You heard them." Nyanta: "Shiroe..."

Shiroe: "But..."

Akatsuki: "It's okay. You'll be fine, no matter what."

THE THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS MOMENT IS NOT SHIROE BEING ABLE TO SETTLE ON THE DECISION TO DESTROY THE ANTENNA

THAT'S NOT WHAT HE DOES AND THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT

this moment... it just... oh man i might just cry because it's so explicit and it's so immediately about EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID OUT LOUD

oh man this is even worse/better/aaaaaa after what I figured out in my pre-previous post about Shiroe's guild past... he worked As Hard As He Could and craved emotional support not even so much in exchange but literally as a means to be able to continue. That's why Akatsuki was so important to him, and her combat prowess or lack of such had nothing to do with it; that's why he still called Nyanta Chief despite being in charge of him, and looked to him for senpai advice. He reached for the crumbs he could get and it got him through most of it, until now, when he needed MORE

and he... got it. This is the exact thing he wanted, the exact thing he was never able to get - people understanding him without words, reaching right through his inability to express his stress in a comprehensible way and ask for help, getting to the heart of the issue that might have been to tough for him to even find on his own much less communicate to others, and taking it on. Standing with him and for him. Shielding him from the problem and saying NAH FAM WE GOT THIS JUST FOCUS ON WHAT YOU CAN DO AND DON'T STRESS ABOUT THE REST

like that's literally... that's explicitly what they said using words and im crying because this is the best thing to ever happen in the history of fiction

understanding nonverbal communication is hard work!!! as is successfully using verbal communication when you are stressed!!! just having someone else do the work for you because you've been trying SO HARD and you just can't anymore and they can SEE IT so they JUST DO IT FOR YOU

anyway the point is??? shiroe's self confidence had shitall to do with it. it was Actual Objective Burnout and Actual Objective Help he Actually Objectively Got

it's... just... simpler than what you are trying to dive into. simpler and so so much better

Shiroe got some support and some ground to stand on and he pushed off way further than he'd been able to before and he came up with something more ridiculously ambitious because that's something he can do!!! it just takes brain energy and his was being sucked by the incredible shittiness that he was now just. feed from. by his entire guild backing him. im so happy about that moment and i dont know maybe it was THAT different in the visual novels??? maybe anime invented all this beauty out of whole cloth and im Objectively Wrong from where this analysis stands???

tbh i dont care i jsut wanted to scream about That Moment Okay

NO OKAY REMEMBER WHEN I SAID THERE WAS A PART OF THE BIG PICTURE YOU WERE MISSING

i mean i already ranted about this but i will rant about this forever more

fact is, Shiroe is not The Most Qualified And Naturally Able Person To Take Care Of Everyone. It's not like... his natural obligation that he just took his time accepting. The reason he is powerful is not because it's his objective quality at the start of the anime, it's because other people willingly gave him that power

and the reason they did is that he was willing to take it!!! the whole package of power&responsibility, he saw it and he said 'pls give it to me' and everyone was like YES PLEASE TAKE IT OH THANK GOD SOMEONE IS HERE TO TAKE CARE OF ME

there's a reason Shiroe succeeded in whipping Akihabara into shape, and it's that it was never hard to do!!! someone just had to try!!!

and there's a reason nobody else tried, which is that They Did Not Sign Up For This Shit. Guildmaster in an MMORPG =/= leader of a major political faction!!! Silver Sword left the Round Table meeting because taking care of themselves was already p much exceeding the extent of their ambitions what the fuck do you mean the city is also on us

yes Shiroe blackmailed the city into submission bUT THE REASON HE WAS ABLE TO WAS BECAUSE THE THREE PRODUCTION GUILDS FINANCED HIM

like, they saw that Someone Was Doing Something and were like 'okay we are going to give you all our money we want in on this'

and he delivered!!! he had an actual plan!!! do you remember how the biggest problem everyone at Round Table had with Shiroe's idea was that they thought it was unrealistic? they didn't Not Want Shiroe To Hold This Power, they just... didn't believe he could&would

and they could have done the same if they'd just wanted... if shiroe, a solo player with support of just one tiny unspecialized guild could do it... anyone could p much... they just didn't

it's not like he's a business genius or has any experience in sales period, that's Henrietta and Naotsugu, but look at how they did fuckall until Shiroe took action first

do you remember the negotiations with the Eastal lords where everyone looked towards Shiroe to provide them with a plan, and yes he did but it was a complete fucking disaster!!! were it not for the princess plowing straight through like a fresh out of fucks armored train it would have gone south and never gotten out of there!!!

because Shiroe... is an expert in MMORPG tactics... not political negotiations...

The one and only thing that qualifies Shiroe for doing all the shit he does is that he's willing to try!!!

so the thing i had issue with... it's not like the great pressure just came with the great intellect naturally. I honestly don't believe Shiroe is ~objectively smarter~ than Henrietta or Roderic or Crusty or

the great pressure came with Shiroe's willingness to take on that great pressure, and he knew exactly what he was signing up for he signed up for that BECAUSE HE ALREADY FELT THAT PRESSURE because of who he is as a person, and his intellect had nothing to do with it, it's a fake measurement anyway

the reason Shiroe is where he is, the reason he's able to do all that he does, both in tactics and politics, is his willingness to look beyond himself and pay attention to and invest in other people. He doesn't want to deal the biggest DPS, he's just happy as long as he directs other people in his party to their fullest potential. Like... that's the reason he's a great strategist - ironically, it's his emotional intellect if any kind of intellect at all that puts him where he is

the round table could totally get rid of shiroe, theoretically, particularly after he gave over the zone rights to the Yamato server

any power he has there is the power of their friend and a person they rely on to take care of them

the disconnect between his reputation and his status at the round table is just because they know what he Really Is Like... he's got Vetinari Job Security, people want him doing what he does because no-one else would do it if he were gone

so to bring this back to the quote i had the problem with

like no that's... that's not what he was coming to find at any point. that's where he was at the start THAT'S WHY HE WAS WHERE HE WAS HE STARTED WITH ACCEPTING THAT PRESSURE AND RESPONSIBILITY AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS CONDITIONAL ON THAT

im... im emotional about this part okay???

you're basically going with a cliche here and... it's so Wrong... yes normally people stumble into some power first and horrifiedly realize what it means later... but Shiroe is special!!! he's basically a protagonist Further Along His Character Arc. he's what happens to the protagonist after the book series has ended and everyone got their happy ending! he's the Wise Mentor not the Young Wide-Eyed Idealist

this is... a very big distinction about this ahhh!!!!

@loghorizonfunfacts

OKAY SO I FOUND YOUR CHARACTER ANALYSIS POST (that you had maliciously kept hidden and unlinked >_>)

i feel like you are missing huge parts of the picture there, like idk if this is because of the anime/novel difference but i dont think so??? bUT THAT’S FOR LATER.

THERE IS ALSO A PART THAT MADE ME DO A DOUBLE TAKE AND GO HOLY SHIT IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

this puts together so much jfc

i have written some conjecture before about how Shiroe was a Very Caring Person who easily fell into a routine of using up all his energy on others leading to eventually burning out

and about how his refusal to join any guilds was an efficient self care routine: the game was about relaxation, not work

and how his reluctance to get involved in helping others was because he FUCKING KNEW that it would not end there once he made the first step

and this cOMPLEMENTS THAT

I'm proposing that the reason Shiroe felt like guilds were a place to be taken advantage of was not because people in his early guilds were actually Evil Conniving Schemers Who Didn't Care. It was because Shiroe himself as a young boy had shitty social skills in the area of saying 'No' and watching out for his own interests. Fellow players assumed that if he said 'sure, i'll help' it meant that it wasn't a problem; meanwhile for Shiroe, possibly hinting that it was a problem, no matter how much it was, was Unthinkable Impossible HowDoYouDoThat.

He had made an Enchanter class as a self-imposed challenge to make friends, because to succeed with that class with that build he'd need to be Likable And Good At Teamwork. Had his problem with social interaction actually been that he's unlikable because he clashes with other people too much, it would have been a good solution... but that was actually his strength already. He'd conflated positive attention with close emotional connection, and worked to get as much of the former as possible, and when that didn't bring about the latter, felt disappointed and taken advantage of.

The reason that at present he's not resenting working with guilds is not because the guilds themselves are different now, it's that Shiroe himself had grown up. He knows that what he wants isn't to be liked or to be needed by others, that he has his own emotional needs and, for the most part, how to actually work towards meeting them. He knows that he can say no and that he should just ask if he wants something... man that Debauchery Tea Party sounds like such a healthy and wonderful place ;~; nowhere he had to learn that but there

Still, the problem with the balance Shiroe found is that he is naturally a very kind and caring and empathetic person. He can go very well without being liked, but when he's NEEDED it's... not a siren call he can ignore. He tells Minori at the end of the first season that when someone needs something and he can provide that something, it's all he wants... when she chastises him for overworking himself.

And ironically enough working to provide for people's needs by changing the world really IS easier for Shiroe than working to provide for people's emotional needs by being likable. Because he's an autistic baby whose strength in social areas are very skewed <3 what a beautiful disater um anyway

normally Shiroe could do SOME of the minimal likability work... like, not being hated... and some of the actual getting stuff done for others work

but instead he signs up to TAKE CARE OF THE WHOLE AKIHABARA CITY AND ALSO POSSIBLY THE WHOLE WORLD BC THERE'S NO LIMIT TO THIS CHILD'S HELPING OTHERS AMBITION

which means he can do... zero likability work. like, negative amounts of likability work.

except that's not all that good an idea!!! like most normal people Shiroe still is a social creature and it does actually drain him to be disliked!!! with his hyperempathy it might actually drain him more than it would others!!! but because of his attitude of ‘at least negative attention isnt Fake’ nobody can recognize that least of all himself!!!

because he still thinks that attention he got by overextending himself never saying no to people was Wrong Fake Kind Of Attention bc he took care of them much more than they took care of him... they just never realized he Needed A Break and someone to hold his hand and listen to him ramble and virtual hug him and tell him stories, and he had 0 social skills to communicate that need because 1) autistic baby, 2) he was under the impression that his lack of friends was because other people didn't like him enough and clearly asking them for things is not a way to become more likable!!!

basically Shiroe is a disaster with trust issues that he gave himself all by himself as a result of misunderstanding social conventions and what other people saw him as and he's most beautiful and the best also

pls take better care of yourself you cinnamon bun