my favorite thing about Corporal Carrot is that he’s a romantic hero plopped right in the middle of the greediest cesspit of a chaotic neutral city ever to debase the pages of literature, and yet instead of having his shining idealism destroyed by an uncaring reality, he makes reality embarrassedly put down the weapons and agree to make nice, and then mutter an awkward “Good morning” whenever it passes him on the street.

And conversely, Vimes is a noir hero in a noir setting (Ankh-Morpork) but instead of an acceptance of the unstoppable awfulness of people in power, these are stories about Vimes dragging them in by their neck and saying, I’ll arrest you, yes, even you.

I love a genre breaking story, and always loved that Terry Pratchett wrote them, but hadn’t considered that these break genre in two very different directions. (For those who haven’t read them, the two characters work closely together and Mr Fantasy, Destiny’s Chosen Polite Refuser of Awfulness and Destiny, really looks up to Mr Screw You Nihilism and Also The Monarchy as a shining example he will follow.)

I also love tumblr because here I can find long-form text analyses of media, either that I already love or gain new appreciation for by seeing their love. I’ve gone on sprees of meta reading on various tumblrs just to bask in that love for story, and celebration of its meaning. I’ve also been asked after panels for more exact citations of that extremely insightful scholarly article I was quoting from… I do of course direct them here. They don’t realise treasures await!

Carrot and Vimes are an especially fun dynamic due to Carrot being the One True King of Ankh-Morpork by heritage… who is happily subordinate to Vimes, a scion of a king-killer and a devoted anti-monarchist and egalitarian. Carrot doesn’t want to be in charge or on a throne, he just wants to be Some Guy Doing Good; meanwhile, Vimes gets bestowed with title upon title and as ennobled as Vetinari can possibly make him without actually bedazzling him wholesale, like an extremely grumpy cat shoved into an elaborate Halloween costume. It’s fantastic.

Vetinari gives Vimes fancy titles for safekeeping like a spy entrusting coded messages to a messenger who can’t read

I really feel like Vetinari should be discussed more as the third side to this dynamic. He's the ruler it doesn't occur to Carrot to usurp. He doesn't just reward Vimes, he actively grooms him for the role and occasionally overestimates him (his level of energy and actual willingness to stand up to authority) (like, Vimes GETS there eventually, but Vetinari put a lot of work into ensuring that happens)

Like, the in-universe "arresting Vetinari" scene is Vetinari - who is not even the Patrician for the moment, as he (temporarily) resigned - walking up to Vimes and informing him that he should arrest him for treason now. And Vimes, who had just arrested two armies on the verge of clashing for "disturbance of the peace" and "loitering with intent", actually balks at that! He doesn't think he can do that! Vetinari has to talk him through it!

Vetinari is not just background! He's a vital participant of the process!

Can we talk real quick about how beautiful Leonard and Vetinari’s friendship is thematically speaking? Like, we have a dude who’s whole deal is believing that the world is inherently evil, who’s friends with this other guy that almost sees it as his responsibility as a living thing to be unconditionally in love with the world. I’d also argue that this may be slightly present with Sybil, and possibly Carrot. Vetinari just likes people who can make him believe, even briefly, that his ‘the world is inherently evil’ philosophy is false.

Discworld Heritage Post

I am in tears this is so important to me

Yes exactly that! He ALWAYS cared, he was ALWAYS there!

Just consider the fact that Vetinari wears the lilac for a second.

It’s one hell of a political statement, coming from a man who is typically all about being very subtle and understated and keeping his cards close to his chest. Just consider how much of a— aha… ballsy move that is.

He’s openly stating with each passing year that he believed in the Glorious Revolution, that he believed that Lord Winder should have been assassinated, that he believed that police brutality on that scale needs to be stamped out once and for all.

That he believed, and still believes, that unfit rulers should be overthrown.

He meets with aristocrats and the “perennial waverers” as they are termed in the book with a lilac bloom pinned to his robe. He wears a symbol of the hopes and dreams of his youth, every year.

It almost reads as a throwaway statement at the end of an incredibly emotional book, but it’s far from it. There’s so much meaning in the fact that Vetinari wears the lilac and visits the little graveyard each year under the cover of darkness. Is it any wonder that he wound down a corrupt City Watch, and is so vehemently against the prospect of war and loss of life?

Vetinari weird bracket: FINAL ROUND

Well folks, it all comes down to this. The semifinals were an absolute nail-biter from start to finish. Two extremely close races. Record numbers of people flocked in to vote for reading sheet music, narrowly breaking the tie in the final hours! And the rat revolution has always been popular, receiving far more nominations than any other. But the final question remains:

I had so much trouble making a choice here

#nah really the rat thing doesn't stick as such a weird thing to me#a man have to find some occupations when tossed in a dungeon#also the rats where obviously better allies/more helpful than the snakes or scorpions come one you and me would have done the same

Me personally, I think I would have just died from a million snake bites and scorpion stings. It makes more sense in the context of the world, but it is still weird as heck that he not only survived, but came out on top.

Vetinari's weirdest moments: Round 1 bracket 8

Last but not least, we have Unorthodox Power Moves. This tyrant likes to be engaged in the community. So engaged, in fact, that he is a key player is several plots against him. Not all of them, admittedly, or else we wouldn't have a series, but enough.

He is so good at it because he has practice with overthrowing Patricians. As a teenager, he killed the previous one. The plan was to stab him, but he only got as far was walking up and saying "Boo," before the man's heart gave out from sheer fright. Was it the knowledge that his end was finally here? Was it the sheer discomfort of being in a room alone with ta man who exudes Uncanny Valley effect despite being fully human? Did Havelock poison him beforehand and then time his entrance perfectly to achieve a dramatic effect that only he would appreciate? The world will never know.

#i would not be at all surprised to find out that vetinari was the inspiration behind even competent Dread Emperor in pgte#he definitely shares the 'plotting to overthrow himself' thing with Traitorous

I WAS THINKING THAT BUT DIDNT TYPE IT OUT FOR SOME REASON

allusions and cultural context <3 <3 <3

#I've been going back and forth on how much like Irritant vetinari is since i saw this poll#like on the one hand Irritant does a bunch of stuff that looks really incompetent until you see what he was going for#and vetinari pretty much always looks like the most competent person in the room (because he usually is)#but also if vetinari were in charge of Praes under the rules of pgte i can see him coming to the conclusion that Irritant behavior is the#most effective way to keep things running

I mean considering the backwards solution to problems that is his signature - legalized Thieves' Guild, putting a conman in charge of the post office and then the banking system, the arsenic episode, literally every single thing he's done in Jingo, etc - I'd argue he's ALREADY known for Irritant behavior, it just doesn't have the neat tropes attached to it to make it parseable the same way

like, "let you and him fight" is the second most Vetinari solution to problems possible, and that seems to have been Irritant's answer to literally every single problem he ever faced (except for the ones he saved with "I'm not currently holding that position actually" which is also a solution Vetinari has gone for at least twice)

(the first most Vetinari solution to problems possible is "what if the office i hold didn't have supreme authority over this" and that's just Amadeus)

Vetinari's weirdest moments: Round 1 bracket 8

Last but not least, we have Unorthodox Power Moves. This tyrant likes to be engaged in the community. So engaged, in fact, that he is a key player is several plots against him. Not all of them, admittedly, or else we wouldn't have a series, but enough.

He is so good at it because he has practice with overthrowing Patricians. As a teenager, he killed the previous one. The plan was to stab him, but he only got as far was walking up and saying "Boo," before the man's heart gave out from sheer fright. Was it the knowledge that his end was finally here? Was it the sheer discomfort of being in a room alone with ta man who exudes Uncanny Valley effect despite being fully human? Did Havelock poison him beforehand and then time his entrance perfectly to achieve a dramatic effect that only he would appreciate? The world will never know.

Vetinari's weirdest moments: Round 1 bracket 7

Let's face it. Havelock Vetinari has so many "Obsessed with Vimes" moments that if I wanted to, I could make a whole tournament just on that. So, to make matters fair, I am pitting both options against each other right now. When Vimes arrested him, not only did he go voluntarily, he had to INSIST on handcuffs. He then proceeded to pout over the absence of shackles, and kept interrupting his own trial to authorize purchasing some for "next time."

And when Vimes allegedly slammed an axe into the center of the council table to let them all know how he would respond to future coup attempts, Vetinari opted to leave it there for the rest of the series as a "conversation piece." The conversation, of course, being "Maybe we shouldn't try poisoning this guy again unless we want our heads chopped off."

Vetinari's weirdest moments: Round 1 bracket 5

In the Reckless Calculated Disregard For Personal Safety category, is it weirder to intentionally expose yourself to arsenic so your loose terrier guard will threaten your political opponents for you, or to disguise yourself as a professional juggler and give a flawless performance on your first ever attempt (with knives)?

Vetinari's weirdest moments: Round 1 bracket 6

Up next is the "It only counts as weird because every other politician sucks" category. This man was the very first Patrician to create official Guilds for sex workers and beggars, thus giving them an official seat in government. And when he was thrown into his own dungeon, a pit of scorpions, rats, and snakes, he formed an alliance (He refused to be called the leader) with the rats to vanquish the scorpions and snakes, so he could enjoy a peaceful imprisonment. The man definitely understands that a government is only as strong as the citizens it serves. The question is, which was the weirder decision?

the relationship between Vetinari and Vimes is sooo funny, because it is extremely aggravating for literally everyone involved. Like at some point they have this kind of companionship, and neither of them are really happy about it ?? they have mutual respect for each other and for both of them it's the most annoying, head-ache inducing thing in the entire world. they are besties and both of them are mad about it. it's " help my weird boss keeps promoting me against my will and teaching me the ways of Evil" and " help my commander that I employed to annoy the rich is making my city better and teaching me the ways of Good". their lives are so entangled with one another they literally couldn't be any closer. their mutual dislike is so important actually because it helps them to hold one another accountable. that little bit of mutual distrust is CRUCIAL. they are actually the epitome of love, and wow do they hate it. they absolutely loathe it. my favourite relationship to be portrayed anywhere ever.

Not how I read Vetinari At All, actually, especially after Night Watch. He knew exactly what Vimes was going to do and did not actually need any teaching. Hell, he goes off ON Vimes about the ways of Good in Jingo, as well as personally setting the precedent that the Patrician can be arrested for a crime (while Vimes was floundering and having trouble with the concept).

The Vetinari I’ve read is the most chaotic Chaotic Good I’ve ever seen, and in a typical Chaotic Good + Lawful Good way (one of typical CG vs LG ways anyway) he annoys Vimes incredibly and has an admiring respect for him back (for him but not for his mental health)

this is why he got shot

the funniest part of night watch is vetinari's off screen adventure

some very very good vimes facts™ i have picked up while rereading jingo

i was laughing crying and then you mentioned the part where he arrested vetinari and look nO

vetinari MADE him arrest him. vimes was all like... ????i dont think i can do that???? and then vetinari was like NO I AM ARRESTED NOW YOU HAVE ARRESTED ME and organized all the fucking pr about vimes having arrested him bc hes high key going for fixing ankh-morpork’s bullshit into actual rule of law and vimes is the chosen one for that even if vetinari has to drag him kicking and screaming at some points

vimes was NOT badass enough to arrest vetinari. he arrested two opposing armies and then was like ‘...but i cant arrest YOU’ bc his respect for vetinari transcends time and space actually

listen,,,

The Watch periodically play this game on long night shifts and boring stakeouts called “You’ll Never Guess” and the point is to come up with outrageous-sounding, and for all your listeners know, true facts about the Patrician that they never would’ve guessed. More points if you can get somebody (usually Drumknott) to confirm the veracity of your fact, combined with more points for how off-the-wall it is. The best plays so far include:

– on personhood | Terry Pratchett, Going Postal