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#the tme discourse – @lilietsblog on Tumblr
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Aremo Shitai Koremo Shitai Onna no Ko ni Mietatte

@lilietsblog / lilietsblog.tumblr.com

Wow, it's been like 10 years since I updated this. Neat. I've made a dreamwidth blog just in case tumblr dies. I think dreamwidth is neat. My username on Discord is Liliet#1061 (and no I don't intend to update it, they're asking but they haven't tried to force me yet). My username on reddit is LilietB. Read PGTE. Homestuck is great. Peace and love on the planet Earth. I'm Ukrainian. Wish us luck.
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azuremist

TME and TMA as intersexist terms: as written by an intersex transfem

I’ve had a few different people in my inbox asking me why I view these terms the way I do. In particular, why I claim it’s intersexist. So, I thought I’d lay out a few examples, so everyone can understand where I’m coming from.

Imagine an intersex woman. She was assigned female at birth by her doctors, and was able to go about her childhood as a woman with no inclination that anything was amiss. Sure, she didn’t experience certain parts of puberty, but puberty was different for everyone, right?

But, later in life, she learns she has Turner syndrome. This is an intersex condition where a woman has only one X chromosome, rather than the usual two.

Soon after she learns this, she finds that laws are being made to attempt to keep trans women out of women’s spaces (often specifically sports) which use chromosomes as a defining factor of womanhood.

Would this intersex person be considered “transmisogyny affected”? She has been raised as a cisgender woman with no problems regarding being ‘clocked’, but she is also a direct target of transmisogynistic laws. She lies in a gray area.

Now, let’s go to another intersex person. Imagine an intersex man with PAIS. AIS is an intersex condition where babies are born with testes and XY chromosomes, but their body is immune to or can’t respond to androgens (which includes testosterone). Intersex people with partial AIS (PAIS) may have more ambiguous genitals, but, once they hit puberty, they begin to look “less” ambiguous, in a way that conflicts with their gender identity.

This intersex person identifies as a man, and he was assigned male at birth. However, his body does not produce testosterone, and he went through a feminizing puberty. To the average eye, he appears to be a woman now because of this.

Would this intersex person be considered “transmisogyny affected?” He was assigned male at birth, and now appears to be a woman, much like many transfems. However, if many saw how he looks now, stating that he is a male, they would probably clock him as transmasc. He was raised as a boy until puberty, and then faced astrozcization from his peers when he began a puberty that feminized him. What he was facing was a form of intersexism where transmisogyny was playing a huge part. Does his childhood matter? Can one become TME over time, when they were TMA as a child? Again, he lies in a gray area, where the answer is not quite so simple.

What about the “opposite”, per se — an intersex woman who had a masculinizing puberty? She has aromatase deficiency, which means that many ‘male’ hormones (which would usually be converted to ‘female’ hormones) would remain unconverted. She identifies as a woman, and was identified as a female at birth and was raised, until puberty, as a female. But now, she would be clocked as a trans woman upon looking at her. What does that make her? Is it different from the previous example? How and why? This intersex person also lies in a gray area. How she should be described with these terms is not clear.

And keep in mind, these are all relatively simple examples. All of the examples I listed self-identify as cisgender. But there are intersex people who are trans in any direction you can imagine.

If that last example identified as a trans woman, because she is now clocked as one, would you be able to say she’s wrong for that? What about if she identified as transmasculine, because of her experience with puberty? What if she’s multigender, bigender or genderfluid, and says she’s both transmasc and transfem because of her complicated experiences? Would that make her a TMA transmasculine person? But I thought that transmascs were all TME? That’s how it’s so often framed, anyway.

The reason why these questions are so difficult to answer is because these terms were not made with intersex people in mind. Very real intersex transfems were pushed to the wayside in favor of centering the perisex view of transgenderism. Intersex people are nothing but an inconvenient little afterthought, annoying perisex people with their demand for “inclusion” and “consideration”. (As per usual.)

You cannot simply make a new gender binary and say, “No, really, this time everyone fits into these two categories! Forcing people to confine themselves to these two rigid labels which are shown as opposites, and as never interacting, will definitely include everyone this time!!” No matter what the contents of the new binary is, it’s not going to work, because sex and gender alike are too complicated for that. There will always be people in the gray area.

You may say, “cis and transgender create a similar intersexist binary,” which is true. However, there are labels which account for this, such as ipsogender and cistrans. There are no such things within the TME/TMA framework. You may say, “TME/TMA isn’t an identity, it’s a political framework for talking about oppression,” to which I respond, “You understand how that’s worse, right?” Your political frameworks have to account for nuance, especially as it relates to other, similarly-oppressed people. Period. You may protest, “But TME/TMA describes the targets of transmisogyny, not those who are accidentally caught up in it!” But that’s not what the terms themselves say. It says “AFFECTED”. Also, in a post-Imane Khelif panic world, I don’t know how you’re still able to lie to yourself and say that intersex people are not an intentional target of transmisogyny. You may ask, “How are we supposed to talk about transmisogyny without these terms?” Well, by using the term “transmisogyny”. Also, “people who do not identify as transfem” and “transfem people” both work just fine. Maybe even “transfem people and some intersex people”, if you really want to flag yourself as an ally! There’s no need for a fancy acronym.

This isn’t even getting into the fact that these terms, for all intents and purposes, seem to have been popularized by and associated with the Baeddelism movement around 2017, which was essentially “Radical Feminism 2: We’re Trans Women, So It’s Fine!” This movement is known for chronic villainization of trans men and non-binary people who aren’t transfem. (They act like this with cis people too, but noticeably less so than they do with non-transfem trans people. How curious.) Think along the lines of how regular radfems treat all men (and who they deem to be men) as inherently morally disgusting scum who deserve to be attacked.

Methinks that maybe these terms aren’t the neutral, fact-based descriptors of oppression that many people nowadays tout them to be, considering that.

So, yeah. “Transmisogyny exempt” and “transmisogyny affected” as terms: not even once. Listen to intersex people, stop trying to make sex and gender into binaries, and for the love of God, stop drinking the queer seperationist koolaid!

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sirenium

Hello! I saw your post about TMA/TME being another binary and it being intersexist. I genuinely want to understand why you think so because the way I’ve seen it being used wasn’t meant to create another binary. It was just for people who experience transmisogyny to have a term for themselves. It’s not based on your agab or your sex. You don’t have to be (amab) transfem to be tma. Plus, in the spaces I’ve seen it being used, it’s understood that being tme/tma can change. One’s relationship to the term can be complicated. I’ve shared my point of view so if it’s okay, I’d like to understand yours.

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I don't know how else to tell you this, but any framework that's essentially oppressed/not oppressed, at least in the way it can easily get used, is eventually going to char intersex people in the desire of perisex (and, let's be honest, widely white) trans people to come out on top in the oppression olympics. even if some people can actually acknowledge us for once, there are others who act like only perisex trans women can be 'TMA' and to hell with everyone else... except those who happen to be 'AMAB'. I've actually seen an intersex person in favor of it admit that it's completely based on what you were born as.

'"...maybe intersex people who were assigned female can be tma" literally NO THEY CAN'T the whole thing about transmisogyny is that it's based around your assigned gender'

that is the direct quote. do you see how this gets intersexist? intersex people assigned female at birth can be affected by transmisogyny, but some people don't want to think so because then their viewpoints explode. you say someone's experiences with TME/TMA can be complicated but I've seen more than enough people water it down to 'AMAB only', so whether or not it was not intended that way in its creation, it is still at risk to be used as a weapon to try to push everyone into gendered and often sex based boxes which, say it with me, hurts intersex people. it happens too much to just be coincidental.

if you want to listen to more intersex people about this, I suggest looking at this post (link) as well as this one (link). I'm tired of perisex trans people acting like us saying anything is such a fucking affront to them (/nay); they cover up their intersexism with cries that the person calling them out on it is simply 'transmisogynistic' and I'm tired of it. We're never listened to and used as a talking point when it suits perisex trans people if ANYTHING, and when we dare have a back bone about blatant intersexism in the trans community, perisex trans people lose their minds because we dared not stay in the shadows while letting the perisex people rule the conversation.

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a few notes on 'transmisogyny exempt'

part I

  • while there are many elements that go into transmisogyny, i believe it to be a shared understanding that the part that generally, usually, normatively elicits the violent, murderous rage that results in so many deaths is the idea of "a man pretending to be a woman in order to trick other men into sleeping with him"
  • there's a lot to unpack there, but the thing I want to highlight here is that this is not an accurate description of trans women. it both misgenders them /and/ ascribes decidedly untrue motives. it is generally /associated with/ trans women and used to /refer to/ them but it does not 'mean' trans women because it is fully untrue about them
  • like i would actually be surprised to learn that literally never in the entire history of humanity has there been a single trans woman who thought it would be funny to trick a man into sleeping with her only to surprise reveal her genitals. however, even this hypothetical daredevil prankster would still, by definition, be a woman, making the idea still untrue as applied to her
  • i would also be surprised to learn that literally never in the entire history in humanity has there been a man who thought it would be funny to dress up like a woman and trick another man into sleeping with him only to surprise reveal his genitals. this hypothetical daredevil prankster is meanwhile, by definiton, not a trans woman
  • so the iconic feature of transmisogyny, the most physical threat to trans women's lives, is based on a misconception and misgendering in the first place
  • this is also characteristic of other aspects of transmisogyny. they are not based on an accurate undersatnding of the world. see all the denial of science going on, among other fun facts
  • when transmisogynist decides to transmisogynistically attack someone, they do not first ask for their birth certificate or their pronouns
  • literally any gender non-conforming person, and also any person who does not conform to the corresponding culture's gendered appearance standards, is a possible target for transmisogynist violence
  • you can call it "misdirected" but that doesn't make any sense, because see above: the original idea does not refer to trans women in the first place, it 'intends' to target men who pretend to be women in order to trick other men into sleeping with them. trans women are simply the most common target for the associated violence to be misdirected towards
  • it usually targets trans women, yes. however, trans men, nonbinary people, intersex people of all genders, cis men and cis women are all not exempt since it's based on ascribing someone a spurious motive and making bigoted assumptions about their gender in the first place

part II

  • at one point in feminist history, 'men pretending to be women in order to trick men into sleeping with them' got a buddy
  • it was called 'men pretending to be women in order to trick other women into sleeping with them'
  • and also another more general friend called 'men pretending to be women in order to infiltrate women's spaces with nefarious intent'
  • that be the terfs, we all know of them
  • (terfs reading this, please think long and hard about why you think what you think. please take this chance to look up some science, crime statistics, etc)
  • and while there was some theoretical opposition to be had in 'actually men are not inherently violent, are our natural allies in the fight against sexism and patriarchy rather than enemies, and there are predatory and rapist women as well'
  • most opposition to the idea was 'actually trans women are women though'. people rallied against misgendering, invited trans women in as their sisters, and so on. it was very nice
  • you know who is not women though? trans men
  • 'men in women's spaces tricking lesbians into sleeping with them'. 'men trying to access resources meant for women'. 'men are inherently misogynistic and hostile and hold oppressive views'
  • men pretending to be women with nefarious intent, where have we heard this before

concepts to look up for supplementary reading

  • gender essentialism
  • sexism
  • queer liberation
  • you can go from there, i believe in you

extra special supplementary reading by me

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closet-keys

my pitch to avoid transphobic language is, as always, to avoid euphemism.

"(coercive) assigned sex at birth" is not a euphemism, it is an accurate description of a literal process that includes a social, legal, and all too frequently medical component. it is legal assignment into a sex class. it describes something done to us. it is something done to every single person who has any official birth documentation.

when you use it as a euphemism to imply any specific trait (e.g. "AMAB" to imply "has a clitoris/penis capable of penetration" or "AFAB" to imply "has a uterus capable of gestation") this is a transphobic assertion. it is equating the particulars of the body with one's assignment, which is functionally how cissexism works. the point is to obscure the legal/economic reality of assignment into a class through suggestion that it is merely descriptive of bodies.

assignment does not describe bodies. it is used to determine what forms of medical abuse someone is subject to, what medical care and bodily modifications a person can legally pursue and economically access, with what required documentation and formal surveillance. in this way, it can describe what traits one is punished for having, what legal restrictions to bodily autonomy one must navigate around, but it does not describe what traits one has.

if you find yourself searching for a term to euphemistically suggest a sexed trait (whether a genital configuration, a gestational capacity, a hormone ratio, an amount of breast tissue, etc.) without having to say it outright, whatever you reach for will likely end up reifying sexgender (which is the construct that creates intersex and transgender/transsexual subjectivities). there is no non-transphobic way to use euphemism to avoid talking about the particulars.

and you can tell people use these terms euphemistically, because they will complain at terminology like "TMA"/"TME" by stating that it "describes genitals" or is "demanding to know one's birth sex." To say someone is transmisogyny affected (structurally, legally, socially, economically) is a relationship to a particular mode of oppression. Same with saying someone is transmisogyny exempt. It describes a relationship to structural power. It literally does not suggest anything about one's physical traits at all.

now, because of how transmisogyny operates materially, it is a result of the sex assignment process, and the enforcement of that assignment. so trying to define TMA without respect to CASAB essentially attempts to redefine transmisogyny away from its material analysis of how it operates. however, TME has no direct relationship to CASAB-- perisex cis men, perisex cis women, intersex cis men, intersex cis women, perisex trans men, intersex trans men, some perisex nonbinary people, some intersex nonbinary people, etc. are all TME. it's a relationship to a particular power structure, not a physical descriptor.

if you want to avoid transphobia, then make a practice of thinking through what you're actually talking about (a practice? documentation? physical traits? a relationship to power? someone's gender?) and then talk about it with specificity.

and if you discover that talking about it specifically would be inappropriate (e.g. you wanted to ask if someone "is AFAB" but your actual question is "do you have a penis?" and you don't want to ask them that because you're in a context where you aren't in a sexual encounter and this information is not necessary) then do not say it. using a euphemism would not make that question any less inappropriate, it would just layer transphobia on transphobia.

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theothin
> pitch to avoid transphobic language by avoiding euphemism > look inside > argument for different euphemistic and transphobic language
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lilietsblog

IKR???? "Transmisogyny exempt" is such an insane proposal I'm baffled every time someone tries to talk about it like it's a real thing. Because, see, transmisogyny is very well known for being a form of oppression very selective and specific about its targets. Its proponents understand the particulars of what they hate very well, and would never make wrong assumptions about people.

Just... holy shit. The first five paragraphs have me nodding along and then the VEER LEFT.

I mean, sure, it's not a euphemistic term. It's just wrong, like it's describing reality in a way that is factually wrong, referring to facts that aren't real and are in fact made up.

That's kind of worse???

(Just to be clear, transmisogyny is not a result of the sex assignment process. Transmisogynists don't ask to see your birth certificate before deciding how they will treat you. Transmisogyny is a reaction to a person's APPEARANCE and BEHAVIOR. Sure, SOME transmisogyny occurs when a person does in fact have access to your documentation, but that's kind of. A numerical minority. And while it's generally pretty critical, it's not the interaction that's most likely to end with someone beaten to death)

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trans men existing around trans women are not a threat to those trans women. trans men occupying space made for trans men and/or accepting of trans men are not taking space away from trans women. the concept of transmanhood is not a threat to trans women. coining a term for the specific type of transphobia trans men face is not diminishing transmisogyny. trans men expressing how manhood makes them feel euphoric is not being done to make trans women feel dysphoric.

we good? okay. stop with the rad fem shit. it's actually good & healthy & normal for trans men and women to share the same spaces &trade experiences & engage in discussion about their differences. we don't have to separate everything in life by gender. the outside world is not school. you literally don't have to separate people by gender for the rest of your life. let's move on.

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imjunebitch

we have infinitely more in common than separating us! don't let assholes turn you against your friends and comrades-in-transhood!

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The way some stuff comes out of people’s mouths talking about transmascs, like they’ve put no thought at all into what it is they’re saying:

“Trans men have male privilege. They’re men. They have to have male privilege. The difference between them and cis men is they face transphobia and cis men don’t.”

Have male privilege but face transphobia…

What exactly does that look like?

How does that work?

People don’t treat trans men like men because transphobia, but somehow male privilege is still there? Huh?

Can we stop just… saying shit instead of listening to the material reality of the trans men and mascs who are speaking about it? Actually listen to what trans men and mascs are saying about our experiences instead of deciding how things must be for us without considering our actual lived experiences?

We will never truly account for trans men’s and transmasc experiences if we treat oppression/privilege like a math problem.

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idk, i just feel like if your primary argument against transandrophobia/antitransmasculinity theory is that you think it's transmisogynistic you're not being intellectually honest. who does it hurt when trans men and mascs coin a term to describe the intersection of transphobia and sexism as it most frequently affects them? because it does hurt trans men when they're told that they're not entitled to speak on the discrimination they themselves face.

what I'm hearing from people who oppose the antitransmasculinity movement is that transmisogyny is when trans men talk about their problems 👍, but obviously that's not true. i know that's not true. you know that's not true. so then what is the issue? genuinely, enlighten me. you want trans men to shut up and listen? I'm listening.

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mlmshark

Late night thought but I think the thing that really ties it together for me on transandrophobia/anti transmasculinity stuff is how quickly people will turn on a transfem if they side with transmascs. Like I’ve seen people in real time try to find any way to take a transfems ‘status’ as transfem away when they say they agree with us, saying that they’re not “transfem enough”, accusing them of secretly being transmasc, trying to find any past take that would invalidate them, or just flat out say they’re lying about being transfem. Like these people immediately fall back on transmisogyny if a transfem sides with us, despite accusing us of being the transmisogynistic ones, which kinda comes back to my assumption that these people just want to silence any trans people that don’t agree with them

I've had this in my drafts in awhile but I think now is the time to reblog it because of this recent addition to my pinned wall of things transandrophobes say about me:

Like, look at that lmao. She hates to do it, but alas, I'm simply so awful she has no choice.

And this isn't about revoking my transfemininity card, but it sure did make me stare at my screen in genuine shock, because holy shit I didn't expect it:

The full line is actually "pickme begging to be beaten to death with hammers" and like. Wowwie zowwie! That's kinna fucked up! That's so fucking weird and gross! They are literally fantasizing about me being hate crimed because it would validate their "non-transfems will always betray you" nonsense.

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The fact that people on this hellsite can’t seem to comprehend that minorities can be antisemitic is nuts.

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smegorl

Many people on this site seem to think minorities are incapable of any kind of bigotry. Especially if the minority person doesn't fit within American standards of whiteness.

something i’ve noticed that has developed in leftist philosophy over the years is the idea that someone who’s marginalized can’t do harm. they have this idea that someone who experiences structural oppression is disempowered and therefore doesn’t have enough power to actually cause harm to anyone. i agree with a lot of theories around structural oppression and marginalization but many lefties warp it and take it to the extreme as a way of ensuring they will never be held accountable for their actions.

additionally, they also love butchering crenshaw’s intersectionality theory and cherry picking the parts of the theory which allow them to never have to reflect on their own actions.

It's just repackaged noble savage.

Social privilege does not make you any more immune to weapons or physical violence (or even verbal and emotional violence really). And yes, that counts as harm.

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traycakes

It's the same false binary "oppressed/oppressor" mentality that gets used all the time to erase oppression men face.

If men are oppressors, they can't be oppressed, regardless of the individual situation.

Men aren't oppressed for being men, though. They're oppressed for being non-white, LGBTQ+, a certain age, disabled, poor, for following a religion, or for being an immigrant. Men are not oppressed specifically for being men.

What "oppression" men claim to face, is either the result of the white supremacist, capitalist, and patriarchal system they created and uphold, or they're complaining they can't get dates (or just laid) because they get their relationship advice from podcasts run by incels, sexual predators, and domestic abusers.

Also feminism is part of the reason certain issues men face (i.e. high suicide risks and sexual assault), but rather than support feminism, men choose to oppose feminism. Because men's egos are dependent on being centered in everything (including topics that don't concern them), and feminism doesn't do that.

Thank you for providing an example of the objectively wrong argument terrible people keep making to try and silence men from talking about their oppression! You can fuck off now.

OK got some sleep let's break down why this argument is not only objectively wrong but anti-feminist.

Men aren't oppressed for being men, though. They're oppressed for being non-white, LGBTQ+, a certain age, disabled, poor, for following a religion, or for being an immigrant. Men are not oppressed specifically for being men.

There is oppression non-white men face that is different from how non-white women are oppressed. Same with literally every other group you mentioned. Saying that "Black men are not oppressed for being men just for being Black" is treating men's experience as the default. Centering men's experience like this is the reason why Black women had to create the term misogynoir to talk about the oppression they experience as Black women. Misogynoir is a useful term, but there still should be a term for Black men as well simply because the oppression Black men face is not the baseline oppression Black people face, it is how people are oppressed when they are Black and men.

What "oppression" men claim to face, is either the result of the white supremacist, capitalist, and patriarchal system they created and uphold, or they're complaining they can't get dates (or just laid) because they get their relationship advice from podcasts run by incels, sexual predators, and domestic abusers.

And then of course the radfem followup: imply that even minority men are not really oppressed and any who claim to be are MRAs, incels, or abusers. It's not enough to just say that men don't deserve a word to describe their oppression, she just had to follow it up with a more explicit attempt to silence any man talking about systemic oppression they face by linking them to hate groups.

This is the binary worldview that all men are oppressors and therefore cannot be oppressed, and radfem's can't help but make it clear they believe this simplistic nonsense even if it directly contradicts stuff they just said admitting that there are men being oppressed. The proof this is the same binary mindset as the rest of the thread was talking about is the mirror belief that women being oppressed means they can't be oppressors which was made clear with the erasure of all the white supremacist, capitalist women out there.

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Hey friendly reminder that any discourse which attempts to establish one oppressed minority as having "privilege" over another oppressed minority is inherently beneath your consideration.

Also the person making the argument is 100% someone who believes that they're allowed to be shitty to anyone who "has privilege" over them because it's "punching up".

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Did you know that you can believe systemic misandry on its own isn't real while also believing marginalized men are in fact oppressed in a unique way due to their manhood intersecting with their marginalized status... woa.. waow.. wow... and.. maybe they should have words for that..

Not to mention. Not allowing marginalized men to have words for specific kinds of bigotry they face further perpetuates the patriarchal idea that male experiences are 'the default'.

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reblogged

For those who aren't aware, TME/TMA language works a lot like nonBlack & associated terms.

NonBlack is a term that was created to specifically focus on how antiBlackness has such a foothold on the entire world that no matter where you go, the more Black you are, the less rights, the less respect and the less power you have in general.

NonBlack, as a term, has been protested for a lot of reasons. We're not the only ones who experience racism, other people have dark skin too even if they aren't Black, people of other races can "experience" antiBlackness too, etc, etc.

But the point is that Black people are the ones who have to deal with antiBlackness day in-day out, with the knowledge that it is meant to target us for nothing more than our race.

Yes, other people have dark skin and yes, other people can be mistaken for being Black. But do they constantly have to deal with being The Targets of antiBlackness, on political, social and structural levels?

No, and there needs to be language to talk about that.

Especially since the biggest part of being nonBlack is that even if you are mistaken for being Black, you still have racial power over people who are Black. You still have the beloved trump card of saying "But I am not Black."

TME/TMA language works the same way. Yes, you may run into people who mistake you for being their targets.

Yes, you may be targeted using transmisogynistic language but you also still have power you can leverage over TMA people and you still do not have the burden of dealing with transmisogyny constantly knowing you are the target.

Do you have to like the language? No. Do you have to respect the way and language oppressed people have chosen to speak about their oppression? Yes. Yes, you do.

This has been a Certified Sex Ed Post.

If you add transmisogynistic things to this post, or get weird about antiBlackness, I will block you! Feel free to ask questions though, as always.

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crazy-pages

Except in practice the way I keep seeing it used is like if "nonblack" was wielded against Hispanic people to say they don't experience racism at all and have white privilege.

If that's actually how you use transmisogyny exempt and transmisogyny affected that's great, but I'll be real, you'd be the first. How I actually keep seeing it used is as the new language of TIRFs (trans inclusive radical feminism).

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lilietsblog

also, "nonblack" isn't phrased as "antiblackness exempt". Like imagine if a demographic of PoC that people can easily confuse for mixed black was called "antiblackness exempt". Can you fucking imagine

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No two women have the same experience. All feminism is founded not on actual essential unity, but on political coalition and affirmation of shared political needs and goals.

Race, culture, class, birth assignment, religion, and countless other factors mean all women experience womanhood differently. Excluding trans women because we have a different life experience misses the point that all women have different life experiences. This idea isn’t even new, its not even specific to trans women, its literally the point Crenshaw and Collins and Mohanty and countless other woc and third world feminists have been making for decades now.

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lilietsblog

also applies to the trans men vs trans women discourse. Please stop yall're making yourselves sound stupid

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reblogged

the transandrophobia discourse is fucking stupid and bigoted and the same old exclusionary hat we've seen over and over again

but what really gets me about it is how STUPID it is?? i mean, no, i haven't experienced EXACTLY what any other trans person has experienced, but the idea that trans men and women don't have BASICALLY the same experiences is insane. the differences between me and a trans woman are imo about the same as, say, a non-op and a post-op trans person. or a trans person deep in a red state and a trans person that lives in new york. honestly i think either of those differences actually matters MORE for shared experiences. i've spoken to lots of trans people of various gender configurations and SOMEHOW we all know wtf is going on with the others.

also im not going to argue about this if you think trans men are significantly privileged then just block me now man. and also get off the internet and interact with real society, which hates all of us pretty equally.

like yall really think men are from mars and women are from venus. we're not different species, we can fucking figure out "hm...the way i feel when i put on a masc shirt....MAY be the way you feel when you wear a dress.......EUREKA"

and as for anything that isnt about your squishy personal feelings, but social structures and oppression and all that. like i said, you need to get out of your echo chamber and talk to real flesh-and-blood trans people across the socioeconomic spectrum, and you'll see that we actually all have basically the same shit going on.

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reblogged

less angry talk, but i would actually posit that trans people of all genders are not "socialized" as men OR women. we are ALL treated as "failed" genders. thats why we arent supposed to go in the public restroom that matches our presentation OR our agab, because both "Men" and "Women" are categories that society bestows on people, but only so long as they Do It Right*. you also see people of color, fat people, gay people, and disabled people getting slammed for "failing" to be their Correct Gender, and when that happens, you don't get assigned to the other category, you just fall out of the rankings entirely and into the category of "freak."

*im not saying that's ALL that "manhood" and "womanhood" are, but it is how society treats those categories. they can be revoked at any time

i think this is the crux of the issue tbh. people go "well society doesn't think you're a woman, so they must think you're a man!"

but. that's not how it works. we're all just Freaks to them. freaking around, completely failing at being Good Upstanding Men OR Women.

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@goldmoose What's the specifics in this case? These terms literally mean "trans women" and "people who are not trans women", which is terminology we already have.

And if you insist that we need a single word for "people who are not trans women", wouldn't it be better to use instead of "TMA/TME" something like "TMT/TMA" (transmisogyny targeted / transmisogyny affected)? Given that it's more accurate?

Because TMA/TME is directly detrimental in that it asserts facts that are incorrect and get people to get their hackles up about it instead of contributing to productive discussion. Isn't it?

On that note, would you describe Imane Khelif as TME or TMA?

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