Killian Whump

but I'm realizing it has more to do with the style of writing for me and the tropes involved than the whumpee themself. Because you're so right about lady whump being written different than male. I'm not a fan of the damsel in distress trope but I love a broken strong character and those are almost always written for men.I'm a lurker in the whump community because my favorite whumpees are female (Regina Mills currently because she's such a well written whumpee) 2/3

and I just don't feel like there's a lot of love for lady whump. But preferences aside, it does make me wonder how much good lady whump goes unappreciated or overlooked simply because there's a stigma around it due to bad writing surrounding female characters and not necessarily because of the whump itself. Anyways I'm rambling now but thank you for putting into words some of the problems I've had. 3/3

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Thanks for the messages, Nonny! I’m glad that post of mine helped put your problems and thoughts into words. It’s good to know I’m not totally in left field with my thinking on this, too, because it’s just something I’ve only started tossing around as a whump theory, but I think it’s got a lot of merit!

And the more I think on these subjects, the more I notice other aspects of it, too... Like, most shows have their different “types” of men - Say, Criminal Minds, how it has the more “physically weak/vulnerable” type like Spencer Reid but also the “physically average/stoic” type like Aaron Hotchner, AND the “physically strong/tough” type like Derek Morgan... and they coincide with the types of men we whumpers tend to like seeing whumped. Well, generally speaking... women tend to come in much fewer “types” in Hollywood. And those types are basically “shapely/useful” and “not shapely/comic relief”. Oh, and then there’s the “shapely/bitchy” category, usually reserved for villains and mean girls.

And I think the problem STARTS there, because let’s be real, most female characters fall into that chasm of interchangeability and lack of individuality, even today. It’s getting better, yeah, but it’s still not moved much beyond “So we have a team made up of the strong guy, the stoic guy, the smart guy, the funny guy, and the girl...” mode of storywriting.

And we know that whumpers who like male whump generally have a “type” that they go for - and will even complain about their frustration when a show whumps “the wrong one” for them. Naturally, whumpers who like female whump ALSO have a “type”... but if Hollywood’s never showing/whumping the specific “female type” that an individual whumper goes for then how would that individual ever even realize they LIKE ladywhump at all?

Anyway, in that line of thinking, I think this is why I’ve generally always found shows with predominantly male casts and “teams” tend to have crappy ladywhump. Shows like Once, built on more female-led casts, tend to have better ladywhump. And I happen to agree with you that Regina is an EXCELLENT whumpee, because she is definitely a strong, independent woman who doesn’t take any shit... which is, not-so-oddly-enough, the exact same “type” I go for in my male whumpees, as well.

I’m also getting fascinated by the lame whump in Lifetime movies. Lemme tell you, it’s lame as all hell, because these are like C class made-for-TV movies on a budget and all that, so it’s generally not “great” in the acting or staging or make-up departments... but because these films are MADE for a predominantly female audience, the “types” of female characters are a lot more varied and created more so to appeal to women. And I notice the exact opposite phenomenon going on in Lifetime movies - The male characters are all basically the same cardboard cutout Idiot Husband/Boyfriend/Murderer character, and the whump they get is generally stupid, like a 2x4 to the back of the head and we don’t see him again for, like, 20 minutes while the woman saves the day. Whereas when the women get whumped, you see all the spills and thrills and peril we normally associate with men getting in Hollywood. It’s really all very fascinating, and I find myself entranced by the different reactions I have to male whump and female whump when seen through this medium.

I gotta apologize if this post is rambly or lacking focus, because this really is just me spitballing here and throwing ideas out into the ether, because I’m thinking a lot about all of this, but I’m still not fully “locked in” on all the wheres and whyfores of it all. It’s sort of more like a jumble of ideas and thoughts at this point, less like a cohesive theory.

But yeah, the more I’m thinking about it, the more I’m coming to the conclusion that the lack of love ladywhump gets compared to malewhump has a lot less to do with US and a lot more to do with the differences in the whump that gets MADE of each gender and how it’s done...

Oh, and check out my Bonus Regina Whump tag if you haven’t already :D That’s where I very cleverly hide the Regina Whump stuff I’ve made ;)

Thanks, Nonny! I’m glad you like my blog! *smooches*

You’re definitely right - this does seem to be a common feeling in the whump community, and one I also share. In my case, I think it’s mostly because I’m heteroromantic, so I’m more “attracted” to men in whatever way my weirdo brain experiences attraction, lol. But I’ve heard from and spoken with a lot of folks who are generally attracted to women, but find men more attractive in whump situations - and I think there’s something more to this phenomenon than just sexual/physical attraction.

Personally, I think it’s got something to do with the different tropes and stereotypes that tend to be explored when men and women are in perilous situations. Simply put, men tend to get whumped in ways that portray them as strong people being beaten down, but ultimately persevering with the help of supportive caregivers... while women tend to get whumped in ways that portray them as useless damsels in need of perpetual rescuing, and the focus is often not on THEIR suffering, but on how their suffering affects the plot and the other people in their lives.

I mean, heck, even my blog has a lot of examples of this phenomenon. Emma gets trapped in an ice cave, and the entire episode is mostly about Hook and David running around like chickens with their heads cut off, angsting wildly about how worried they are. I mean, I DO enjoy the episode because I love watching Hook angst about things... but the whump Emma herself goes through does absolutely nothing for me.

But that said... I don’t think it’s because it’s a woman suffering. If the roles were reversed, and the episode played out exactly the same but with Hook in the ice cave and Emma angsting over it... I think I’d be frustrated at how the whump was done. I’d want more focus on Hook’s plight and HIS fears and suffering, and less focus on the angst his rescuer is going through and how he’s becoming besties with the woman who trapped him there in the first place. So is my disinterest in Emma getting whumped because she’s a woman? Or because it’s just simply not good whump?

On the other hand, there’s a scene in Once where Regina gets tortured with electroshocks... and it’s good. She’s portrayed as a survivor, toughing it out, and the focus is on her pain and suffering. And I like it. It’s one of the few ladywhump scenes I sincerely like, entirely on its own merits. And, unlike the Emma whump scene I don’t like... If it were a man in Regina’s position, I’d still like it. I wouldn’t consider it subpar whump at all. It would be glorious. Man or woman, it’s just plain ol’ good whump.

Which makes me wonder how many other scenes I think I dislike because they have female whumpees would be just as lackluster with male whumpees. And how many glorious scenes with male whumpees would be just as good with a woman taking the whumpee’s place.

It’s something to think on, anyway. Not really a full-fledged theory or anything at this point, just something I’m tossing around in the ol’ noggin...

...This is relevant to my interests. Yes. Thank you.

Lady Whump fans, rejoice! Nonny has provided us with lovely things!

Oh, what a great Ask! And I DO have ideas on this!

What I think makes lady whump such an important part of the whump community is because it gives us a great opportunity to rewrite the old “damsels in distress” trope in ways that are less objectifying towards women and also more pleasing to female whump fans.

For starters, I don’t think the “saving” aspect itself is a problem, because a lot of whumpers LOVE a good saving and all the hurt/comfort tropes involved in it. Those are such an integral part of whump that you don’t want to just throw it out (and you shouldn’t!). However, I think it’s important for creators to make female characters that need to be rescued in a specific situation, instead of female characters who need to be rescued in every situation.

Basically, there’s a difference between rendering a character helpless as part of a whump scenario... and writing the character as fundamentally helpless. Damsels in distress are all too often presented as the latter, and that’s where lady whump can update and reshape the DiD trope, by presenting women as strong, capable, multi-faceted characters in bad situations, instead of pretty, helpless eye candy just existing to be rescued by the hero.

And who that hero is also needs to be considered. Damsels are almost always saved by a dashing male hero who they immediately fall in love with (if they weren’t already) with a breathy, “My hero!” That’s great and all, and a lot of whumpers love to have a good, romantic rescue for their whumpees... but let’s expand on that. Have a lady get rescued by her best friend, or her partner on the force, or a family member, or even her arch nemesis. Explore more different kinds of relationships, and also - let ladies save ladies. Damsels may always get rescued by a man, but ladies in whump are certainly capable of rescuing each other (and loving each other, too! ;)).

Who’s doing the whumping is another place where lady whump can right some wrongs. Damsels in distress are often put in that distress by male villains who are doing it merely to punish or torment the male hero of the story. That’s bogus. For starters, the hero of a whump story should usually be the whumpee - and the same should be true in lady whump. And whump villains can be as varied as they come (male, female, other), and have just as varied of reasons for wanting to harm the whumpee. That’s not to say you can’t just write a throw-away villain for a Whump Without Plot piece, nor that you shouldn’t write pieces where a woman is tortured while her partner/lover/friend is forced to watch - but it does mean you should steer clear of using the DiD trope of a female character serving as merely an extension of a male hero, where HER pain and suffering is ignored in favor of focusing on the hero’s pain over her pain.

Really, I think those are the main things to consider when creating lady whump content in order to avoid the problematic pitfalls that exist within the “damsel in distress” trope. There are other differences between lady whump and damsels in distress, as well (less focus on bondage, the non-sexual element, etc), but nothing else that I can think of as things to avoid.

I hope this helps you out, Nonny - and thanks again for a great question! :)