(good thoughts... just piggybacking on a few more thoughts here). Cas’s relationship with Kelly is one of the biggest reason I see him as gay being the closet to correct label (and also “queer”). But if you are talking about “coding,” there is something especially gay-coded about Cas/Kelly, as Cas was “let me buy you a house and take care of you and raise your kid” -- all while ZERO romantic overtones.That isn’t to say men and women only being friends defines their sexuality -- but from a story standpoint? Kelly was basically a surrogate. Which Kelly being a “surrogate” via rape no less, makes me hate her storyline but that’s another rant. From Cas’s perspective only, if they had wanted him to be straight, bi, or pan... he could have been in a relationship with Kelly to be closer to stepdad material or even, Jack could have been his own biological child. Anyway, where gay label doesn’t fit for me at all, is as much as Cas shows very little interest in women, he also doesn’t show interest in men -- outside of Dean at least. Like you said, that leans demi -- or gray or ace, all which seem as much queer than gay. Adding also, I tend to use labels as characters might use them for themselves. I’m not sure that Cas would define his sexuality in any one way, which is why queer works to allow him to just be in a space of his own. (As for gender identity, so many on tumblr push for non-binary Cas, but I haven’t read any evidence that he would choose to identify any other way than male. Even in a female vessel. Case study: Benjamin, even after a century with a female vessel, still uses he/him. Of course, I suspect gender and angel study could be a book of its own.)

Why insert romance into one of the only shows that cherish platonic love more?

I talked to a respectful destiel shipper a couple of days ago and while they were completely respectful, there is one thing I can't understand for the life of me. Why does there have to be romance in everything? I am aroace which is probably part of it, but why can't platonic love exist? ( This isn't meant to be a dig at wincest shippers. I am very well aware you guys know the difference between fanon and canon and love the brother/soulmate/best friend/parent or adult child relationship of Sam and Dean just as much as I from a non-shipper point of view do.) Why does everyone have to kiss or have sex? Platonic love does exist and it baffles me that Dean and Cass can't just be friends even with Cass' goodbye scene. I guess I feel like they see romantic love in everything and it irks me a bit. Maybe destiel shippers are young? I'm 15 though so why would that be a factor? Is it more society's fault than anyone else's?

Why is there so much emphasis on romantic/sexual love and not a lot on platonic relationships? The one show that actually puts emphasis on a relationship that is platonic. The one show that has Sam and Dean choose each other over any romantic interest. The one show that has two brothers in a QPR. The one show that has a possible a-spec reading of one or both brothers. (I've only ever seen one for Dean but I'm sure there is one for Sam as well. ("Sex is sex and love is Sam." I love this quote so thank you to whoever wrote that.)) The one show that has Dean waiting for Sam in heaven because heaven isn't perfect without his brother. Why do they watch this show if they want a focus on romantic interests? I just think if they want a show about romance there are other shows available. Especially if you want representation. Why torture themselves when there is nothing there? ( I see the speech at the end as platonic but even if it was not it wouldn't change anything. At the most it's unrequited.)

Not to mention there are problems with wanting it in canon. ( Shipping it in fanon only is a whole other thing but while I'm sure there are destiel shippers who may do this I'm talking about ones who actually wanted it/saw it( from Dean's side) in canon.) The first problem is Dean canonically is straight. Plenty of evidence for that. The second thing is his love for Sam. Canonically they have left love interests and friends for each other. There is no way in canon that Dean doesn't dump Cass at some point even if Dean was bisexual. Dean could be literally any sexuality but if Sam existed and he was ever aware of it Cass would be fed to the wolves. Also, I don't even like Cass ( I'm a Sam-leaning bibro who is still mad at Cass for breaking Sam's wall and rendering Sam's sacrifice in season 5 meaningless by saying yes to Lucifer in season 11 and messing everything up.) but Cass is literally an angel. Angels are jerks and I think they got that from Chuck but they are also warriors meant to be in an army. I don't even like him, but I know it's a disservice to his character.

That being said shoutout to respectful destiel shippers. I can't say I understand but I thank you for being respectful because a lot of destiel shippers (hellers) are not.

I’m asexual (and a destiel shipper) and I agree with some of what you said. I get annoyed when fan make *everything* about shipping - when that’s all that seems to get discussed, when you have trouble finding any place in fandom for enjoying a relationship between characters on a platonic or familiar level and feel like you can’t... it can get tiring. I’ve given up trying to read Sam and Dean (brothers) fanfiction because even when it is tagged as non-romance, it too often goes there (yikes, my eyes!). Platonic/familiar anything can be hard to find. On the other hand, I support other fans for enjoying a show for any reason, so if what they enjoy is shipping, I don’t want to take that away. It just is the way it is?  Like I said, I do enjoy Destiel ship, and for me, it’s because they have a strong bond without revolving around sex. The genuine bond part most of all. It’s like the writing and story had actual time to focus and build a relationship and build up dynamic and that’s not something I’d get if you are trying to get me to go enjoy a “romance show” instead.  I can enjoy them platonically too, but it just feels like the characters have a longing for something else too.  There is part of me that wishes - or at least understands - why fans would want Destiel canon and that’s because it gives it validity. However, I’m also wary because I think the writers would mess it up.  The ending how it stands though is the actual worst. They half-acknowledged the ship, “killed” one-half the ship (bury your gays), only to have him resurrected off screen but unacknowledged. It’s shit writing to say the least. I can’t even imagine what they would do if they tried to make Destiel canon in prior seasons -- though I think bisexual!Dean would have been good representation. I disagree that Dean is obviously straight. I mean, I thought that for a long time too. But if you ignore what he says, it very much adds up that he is a closeted bisexual. And not in the way that fans make every character bisexual, I mean textually in show. Too many moments to even list here, unrelated to Cas as well moments. Dean also wouldn’t ever have to choose between Cas and Sam. That’s why Cas is ALREADY an exception to the story. Cas comes and goes from the narrative (dies and comes back to life too). Cas works independently and also with Dean. Hypothetically, they could be in a romantic relationship and not much would need to change. Cas would have no human exceptions of romance “should” look like and wouldn’t ever get between Sam and Dean. Cas even listed Dean loving Sam as one of the reasons that he (Cas) loves Dean. So no choice needed. As for Castiel, yeah, he is an angel. But... the show far deconstructed the notion that an angel is merely an warrior, angel of the lord. ESPECIALLY for Cas, fallen angel, who chose freewill, became human, chooses humanity at every opportunity. And I like the idea of Asexual!Cas, but angels are not inherently incapable of sexual or romantic attraction. Biggest outliers being Gabriel (sex at least) and Serafina (romance!). Cas is an outlier too, where ever he ends up.  

Listen. I like Jack, I do. And I love that Cas loves Jack. But I think a lot of people forget why he loves Jack. Why his purpose became protecting Jack and being Jack’s father. It’s not because it comes naturally to him, or because he made the decision to do it unprompted. He’s an angel, not a father.

In the womb, Jack showed Cas the utopian future he was going to bring into existence. Cas with his wings back, Sam running through a field, and Dean looking at Cas with happiness and saying “thank you”. That’s just what we know he saw. He might have seen more. And that’s what Cas was working for. That’s why he was protecting Jack so vehemently, even at the expense of his friendship with Dean and Sam, even in the face of Jack killing Mary; he thought that if he protected Jack, it would all work out in the end, and that future would come to fruition.

Everyone always thinks the best of Cas as Jack’s father, but he loved Jack and cared so much about Jack because he wanted that future. Jack was his purpose. He wanted what Jack showed him, and was willing to go to any lengths to get it.

AND HE NEVER GOT IT.

Jack lied to him, to get him to protect him, to get him to be the father that he wanted. Jack chose him as his father, not the other way around, and he manipulated him into being what he wanted with visions of the “future”. He showed him what he wanted most, to get him on his side. He truly was Lucifer’s son all along.

Even if the cut scenes of the future from the script weren’t canon, I still think Jack lied. There’s NO WAY Jack showed him the future that actually happened, and Cas was motivated by that. No way. None. Himself being taken by the empty, Dean being killed on a stake by vampires, Sam having a kid he names Dean and dying of old age. Yeah, that sure seems like a purpose to rally behind alright! (that was sarcasm btw)

And I think Cas was still holding out hope for whatever future he did see when he was taken by the empty. I think he still believed in Jack then, and still thought it would all turns out okay. But it didn’t. Because Jack lied to him.

Yes, I think Jack basically taped into Castiel’s desires. Because the three images shown to Cas are exactly what Cas desired. a) Cas with wings/powers again. Season 12 Cas was feeling especially useless, so of course he would want his full powers, but also the wings... I don’t think that was even explored enough how much he missed them (although he said at least once that he did, so yes). b) Dean happy and appreciating Cas. Need I say more? Pretty much on the nose of what Cas wanted from Dean. c) Sam - vague but generic Sam in a good place. Cas wishes Sam well and all that. The other reason I don’t think Jack showed Cas any version of a future is that... Jack never showed any ability to predict the future. Even the most powerful beings (Chuck, Amara, Death, etc) were murky on the exact future, but aside on that, Jack... never had seer-like powers. The question then becomes did Jack show a version of a future that he (Jack) wanted/planned to create? Maybe. What we know of Jack he did want for his family to be happy, so sure, baby Jack could also have generally wanted to create said paradise. I agree 100% that it was still manipulation. It is why it took me SO long to warm up to Jack. Through manipulation, he took away both Cas and Kelly’s freewill. But I also think Cas did grow to love Jack for his own sake, not merely for the “future.” As for the empty, maybe Cas did still have faith in Jack. Which wouldn’t be totally misplace though? Technically, Jack did bring back the world and get Cas out of the empty and the writers might argue that “paradise” is really Heaven after they “fixed” it. (I have all kinds of issues with this interpretation, because the rest is terrible, but still, you can see that the writers were trying for this faux perfect happy ending.). But I agree, it’s faux and most about the ending was terrible.

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually… their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

okay that’s a great take and headcanoning dean as aro is absoltuely valid, but since you’re answering on my post which was more about dean not having a different/less healthy relationship with one gender than with the other, i’m gonna take the liberty to answer to your arguments with my personal headcanon. i still think your take on dean’s sexuality is absolutely valid though, i’m not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my opinion.

i personally think cassie and dean were very much in love. i don’t see the relationship only lasting a few weeks as a sign of dean not loving her; if anything for me it means he was ‘too’ in love with her; he loved her so much that he couldn’t stand to lie to her, and wanted a healthy relationship between them (as i said the pilot shows us dean views keeping the supernatural from his SO as unhealthy) but by telling her only a few weeks into the relationship, when it wasn’t built enough yet for her to trust him so completely as to believe something so ridiculous from her pov as the existence of vampires and werewolves, it ended up breaking them up. about dean never mentioning her again; that’s entirely because of the writers and actors; the one dean was supposed to end up with at the end of s5 was cassie, but megalyn echikunwoke couldn’t play the part so they gave that role to lisa.

i don’t know if i’d say dean was in love with lisa, either. them always being ‘ben and lisa’ makes sense though, if you’re in a relationship with someone and that someone has a child, you absolutely have to see them both as a unit and recognize by that dating the parent you’re also accepting a role as a coparent, and that you can’t enter a relationship without entering a family in this case. one of the things that generally breaks a relationship between a single parent and someone else is that that someone makes the mistake to think they can be a relationship with the parent yet not take the part of a parent for the child as well; dean doesn’t make that mistake at all, he immediately embraces his role as a parental figure, which isn’t surprising, since dean is very parental and loves kids anyway.

i do think he didn’t have a relationship because of his work. whenever dean got a ‘break’ with hunting, he did end up having a relationship with a woman he seemingly was in love with or falling in love with. during the stanford era it was cassie, when he was at sonny’s it was robin. so my personal view on dean and lisa’s relationship is that their first meetings in stanford era and s3 showed dean that he could possibly fall in love with her and have a relationship with her if he got a break, which is why he came back to her in s5; but he couldn’t really fall in love with her as he could’ve if he’d somehow moved in with her in s3, because he was recovering from an enormous amount of loss and trauma; it was the first time he had a break since s1, and so the trauma of hell, the pressure of the apocalypse as well as the loss of jo, ellen, etc but mainly sam is weighting on him. i think if it hadn’t been for this he could’ve fallen in love with her, or if they’d spend enough time together for him to heal a little more from his loss and have the emotional capacity for a romantic feeling of his own.

i agree with you on jo, i do think he turned her down for that reason exactly, i just think it was a specific case of him seeing her more like a friend or even a little sister.

i mean, anna and suzy were one night stands, for sure, (and i do think with pretty much all his one night stands that that’s all dean was looking for; having fun for a night and that’s it, without seeking anything romantic) but he also did have a certain building friendship with them beforehand though. i think they were a little bit more than one night stands, not romantically just, friendship wise. this isn’t an argument against yours at all its just their friendships were sweet and are very important to me so i remind them to anyone whenever i get a chance lmao i thought they were just very pure and should’ve been friends longer

i just personally think that dean doesn’t have any more capacity to have romantic feelings for men than he does for women. if anything, maybe less. i mean the relationships dean had with men (benny, crowley) weren’t more romantic than his relationship with lisa or anna. personally i’d see most of dean’s relationships as more sexual or friendly or crushes, with the two exceptions of cas and cassie as also being romantic. so i don’t think dean has more romantic feelings towards one gender than the other, which is why i don’t really see him as homoromantic. him being demiromantic however i absolutely agree with; i see that as fitting his character a lot. i think it’s less about gender and more about the way he builds relationships.

one again, both our headcanons are ultimately equally valid, these are just my personal opinions . i’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you, i’m just sharing my thoughts :)

You are invalidating anything. I’m happy to discuss. :) Cassie is the best example of “romantic.” It’s the closest to a portrayal of what you would expect in a romantic relationship. I could argue around it (Dean got caught up in the idea of love or some such thing) but objectively watching, it’s clear that it was meant as an average one-episode romantic pairing. I think this pairing only gets discussed to the extinct that it is does, because it is Dean’s only classic “romantic” pairing. That’s pretty telling. As for Lisa, yes, absolutely her and Ben are a package deal. But in the show there was an over emphasis in that and little to show Dean’s feelings towards Lisa directly. If he just talked about one of them, he was more likely to talk about Ben, which I’m not saying is wrong. Ben was like his kid, but that’s just it. The whole arc with them was about Dean experiencing a family. Would he have even stayed with Lisa for as long as he did if not for Ben? The argument that Dean wasn’t in a place to love, I don’t know. That didn’t stop Sam when he was in the same position. Sam/Amelia was unhealthy, but he did say he loved her more than once. It’s not just that Dean didn’t say he was in love with Lisa, nothing really showed it either. Anyway, I didn’t realize that the original thought was about whether Dean’s relationships with men were *different* than his relationships with woman. I would actually say yes, for sure. Not different as in more or less romantic (because mostly there was no romance)… but different. His closest relationships with men (none human interestingly but male-coded so okay) were Benny, Crowley, and Cas. The reasons these all felt different was because of the connection. Like an unspoken understanding and tension when there was lack of understanding. A back and forth. And a depth to the relationships. His closest relationship with woman were… Lisa and Jo? Lisa was written to be in the supportive role, she was constantly supporting Dean, but there lacked a back and forth challenging one another. Dean flirted with Jo, but there was a lack of ever getting on the same page at all. Some people say Dean saw her like a sister, but to me, it was just never that deep at all. This doesn’t prove he is incapable of experiencing romantic feelings towards woman, but it does show that he mostly doesn’t. To anyone actually - it’s rare at least. (Added note. As for his friendships, yes, I absolutely agree with you. He is great at establishing repertoire. His familiar relationships are also something that belong in another category [Jack, Kevin, Charlie, Bobby] and it’s easy to contrast the different way he interacts with them as well.)

i don’t think it’s the only reason we talk so much about cassie, i think it’s more about her being the first we see dean in love with and also like, one of the first times we see dean so vulnerable. she was a great character and also one of the only poc they didn’t kill. for once

i’d have agreed for lisa a couple months ago but i recently rewatched the show and i was surprised by how many genuinely sweet and loving moments there were between lisa and dean. i think we got so used to kind of mock their relationship and make it into this fake thing that we forget they actually were good and kinda cute together. i was really surprised when i saw this on my rewatch

sam and amelia is.. different. i think we can all agree sam’s writing in that season was shit and wildly ooc his relationships with men and women being more or less romantic was actually what i meant so i 100% agree with you on that one

i think dean had pretty good&interesting relationships with women too though, like yeah, jo, for sure, but also cassie, and even some more background characters that weren’t quite love interest but could’ve been if they stuck around longer, like suzy or casey. even him and anna had an interesting and sweet relationship, although i don’t think it was romantic at all.  but when it comes to love interests i’d say bela, jo and cassie are pretty much equivalent to his relationships with crowley, benny and cas. (i think the reason dean has more long lasting relationships with men is mostly because of. well. the lack of female characters on the show, they just keep getting killed. sexism at work again on the sexist cw show)

I agree that Dean and Lisa had tender moments and genuine care, but it also felt like going through the motions to me. Not romantic, but it’s open enough to interpretation, so that’s fine. Cassie and Suzy were both one-episode characters. If we are talking about lack of depth with Dean and women, those would be examples. Because of this short frame, Cassie is not an equivalent - in the sense that Crowley, Benny, Cas span multiple episodes or even multiple seasons. Bela and Jo are characters that span episodes but still had no depth in their relationship with Dean. There was flirting but not... Dean didn’t open up in any way or connect on a deeper level. Anna and Dean did have a short-lived connection. They have a strange relationship too, in that it felt zero romantic. But still sex. Yet, not really friendship either. It felt like maybe the writers wanted it to be more but then just... nope. Minor connection to just nothing. Anyway, I don’t really feel like I’m arguing anything in particular at this point. I  agree that the show has a huge sexist problem and not enough female characters, so maybe it could have gone another way. It definitely felt like the writers were clueless on how Dean’s relationships with men would be interpreted, so yeah, seems they also just assumed that people would accept his relationships with women even without depth because they were women. That reasoning doesn’t work with me though.

Taking another look at Sam and Eileen’s relationship and I finally realized why it’s the only canon romantic relationship he had that I enjoyed: she knows he’s a hunter

One of the things I could never excuse is how Sam used women, Dean is guilty of it as well, as a way to live a “normal” life.

He was willing to lie to Jessica for the rest of his life, even stating that he never planned to tell her anything. And then he did the same thing with Amelia, both relationships interrupted by Dean.

Anytime Sam tries to get out of the hunting life, he latches on to women to reassure himself that he’s doing the opposite of what he would in the hunting life.

Eileen broke that pattern. She knew he was a hunter and was also a hunter. It started their relationship so that it wasn’t built on lies and actually felt real, not some illusion Sam was trying to build around himself as an emotional shield.

This just makes me even more upset at the fact Eileen was never confirmed to be the blurry wife, or that there was even the blurry wife in the first place. Sam fell back into his pattern with the death of Dean, which cued him to leave the hunting life, as always.

This most likely means Sam found another woman, if it wasn’t Eileen, and rebuilt his own ideal “perfect” life that his character development should’ve destroyed years ago.

anywho, pro saileen :D

1000%.  Eileen breaks the pattern and also, she is the only woman introduced who was a position to understand Sam. “Blurry wife” was the worst idea. If she wasn’t Eileen, then it means Sam would never break the pattern of opening up about his life and forever keeping his two lives “hunter” and “normal” separate. It was one thing with Jessica. Not that secrets are okay, but he was in a place that he could have run away forever and been happy. After going towards 40-years of supernatural trauma (not to mention the extra 180 years of hell), normal was not in the cards for him. He didn’t have to hunt, but he needed to blend his two lives together. If he refused, then he would never be anything short of lonely and miserable for the rest of his life. Reason 505 that the ending was the worst. The ending had the characters end up where they always said they would. This is slightly fixed if blurry wife is Eileen.

Absolutely, I think it also helps that it seems the Supernatural writers found the capacity to write decent female characters that weren’t just in supportive positions.

I don’t understand how Sam’s character development could revert him to going back to a “normal” life outside of hunting, especially since monsters are still in existence. I think a huge character development for both Sam and Dean was learning as deep as they are in, there’s no way out and that’s okay.

I could just never really forgive Sam for the position he put Jessica in. I’m absolutely not saying he could be blamed for her death but what was their relationship even built on? You don’t have to have 100% transparency with your partner but they should at least know the basis of your whole entire life.

Me talking about my disagreement with how Sam treated Jess would involve a whole other post but I do feel there was a deep emotional connection missing on Sam’s side from hiding numerous secrets from her, same goes for Amelia.

Eileen would always be the perfect choice for him as he could blend the two lives together. The ideal family he wanted while also the honesty of his hunting life. She never tried convincing him to leave the hunting life or put aside his co-dependency with Dean, and that brought a very deep understanding connection to their relationship that he never had before.

The whole ending for Sam is just terrible. It seems he got the life he would’ve imagined with Jessica in the first season, even the part of naming his son Dean as a “memory.” At least if it was revealed to be Eileen, we would know he was happy in the long run.

Sam/Jess was meant to parallel with John/Mary, including the flaws of having secrets. With John/Mary, it could have been John who died just as easily. Regardless, her not telling the truth is what led to Sam and Dean being raised the way they did, as hunters minus the knowledge on how to arm themselves. Despite the parallels, I don’t think the fact it was the *secrets* that led to all the issues was ever addressed? Anyway, I can forgive Sam for Jess, but in no way was that a healthy relationship. Neither was Sam/Amelia. Actually, the latter was worse as Sam was older but learned nothing (and okay, if it was meant to be a step back for him, but again, the secret part of the flaw was never addressed.) Personally, for his ending, I was wanting/expecting Sam to end up running his own dispatch of hunters or becoming more into the research/men of letters side of things. So like... half-way retire from hunting. It seemed that where his arch was going in season 13-14, and it would have worked better for me, to break this idea that it has to be either/or. However, if nothing else changed, except the confirmation that he stayed with Eileen, it would be 20% better. Because at least one person in his life would be there to understand and bridge the gap for his life.

Taking another look at Sam and Eileen’s relationship and I finally realized why it’s the only canon romantic relationship he had that I enjoyed: she knows he’s a hunter

One of the things I could never excuse is how Sam used women, Dean is guilty of it as well, as a way to live a “normal” life.

He was willing to lie to Jessica for the rest of his life, even stating that he never planned to tell her anything. And then he did the same thing with Amelia, both relationships interrupted by Dean.

Anytime Sam tries to get out of the hunting life, he latches on to women to reassure himself that he’s doing the opposite of what he would in the hunting life.

Eileen broke that pattern. She knew he was a hunter and was also a hunter. It started their relationship so that it wasn’t built on lies and actually felt real, not some illusion Sam was trying to build around himself as an emotional shield.

This just makes me even more upset at the fact Eileen was never confirmed to be the blurry wife, or that there was even the blurry wife in the first place. Sam fell back into his pattern with the death of Dean, which cued him to leave the hunting life, as always.

This most likely means Sam found another woman, if it wasn’t Eileen, and rebuilt his own ideal “perfect” life that his character development should’ve destroyed years ago.

anywho, pro saileen :D

1000%.  Eileen breaks the pattern and also, she is the only woman introduced who was a position to understand Sam. “Blurry wife” was the worst idea. If she wasn’t Eileen, then it means Sam would never break the pattern of opening up about his life and forever keeping his two lives “hunter” and “normal” separate. It was one thing with Jessica. Not that secrets are okay, but he was in a place that he could have run away forever and been happy. After going towards 40-years of supernatural trauma (not to mention the extra 180 years of hell), normal was not in the cards for him. He didn’t have to hunt, but he needed to blend his two lives together. If he refused, then he would never be anything short of lonely and miserable for the rest of his life. Reason 505 that the ending was the worst. The ending had the characters end up where they always said they would. This is slightly fixed if blurry wife is Eileen.

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually… their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

okay that’s a great take and headcanoning dean as aro is absoltuely valid, but since you’re answering on my post which was more about dean not having a different/less healthy relationship with one gender than with the other, i’m gonna take the liberty to answer to your arguments with my personal headcanon. i still think your take on dean’s sexuality is absolutely valid though, i’m not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my opinion.

i personally think cassie and dean were very much in love. i don’t see the relationship only lasting a few weeks as a sign of dean not loving her; if anything for me it means he was ‘too’ in love with her; he loved her so much that he couldn’t stand to lie to her, and wanted a healthy relationship between them (as i said the pilot shows us dean views keeping the supernatural from his SO as unhealthy) but by telling her only a few weeks into the relationship, when it wasn’t built enough yet for her to trust him so completely as to believe something so ridiculous from her pov as the existence of vampires and werewolves, it ended up breaking them up. about dean never mentioning her again; that’s entirely because of the writers and actors; the one dean was supposed to end up with at the end of s5 was cassie, but megalyn echikunwoke couldn’t play the part so they gave that role to lisa.

i don’t know if i’d say dean was in love with lisa, either. them always being ‘ben and lisa’ makes sense though, if you’re in a relationship with someone and that someone has a child, you absolutely have to see them both as a unit and recognize by that dating the parent you’re also accepting a role as a coparent, and that you can’t enter a relationship without entering a family in this case. one of the things that generally breaks a relationship between a single parent and someone else is that that someone makes the mistake to think they can be a relationship with the parent yet not take the part of a parent for the child as well; dean doesn’t make that mistake at all, he immediately embraces his role as a parental figure, which isn’t surprising, since dean is very parental and loves kids anyway.

i do think he didn’t have a relationship because of his work. whenever dean got a ‘break’ with hunting, he did end up having a relationship with a woman he seemingly was in love with or falling in love with. during the stanford era it was cassie, when he was at sonny’s it was robin. so my personal view on dean and lisa’s relationship is that their first meetings in stanford era and s3 showed dean that he could possibly fall in love with her and have a relationship with her if he got a break, which is why he came back to her in s5; but he couldn’t really fall in love with her as he could’ve if he’d somehow moved in with her in s3, because he was recovering from an enormous amount of loss and trauma; it was the first time he had a break since s1, and so the trauma of hell, the pressure of the apocalypse as well as the loss of jo, ellen, etc but mainly sam is weighting on him. i think if it hadn’t been for this he could’ve fallen in love with her, or if they’d spend enough time together for him to heal a little more from his loss and have the emotional capacity for a romantic feeling of his own.

i agree with you on jo, i do think he turned her down for that reason exactly, i just think it was a specific case of him seeing her more like a friend or even a little sister.

i mean, anna and suzy were one night stands, for sure, (and i do think with pretty much all his one night stands that that’s all dean was looking for; having fun for a night and that’s it, without seeking anything romantic) but he also did have a certain building friendship with them beforehand though. i think they were a little bit more than one night stands, not romantically just, friendship wise. this isn’t an argument against yours at all its just their friendships were sweet and are very important to me so i remind them to anyone whenever i get a chance lmao i thought they were just very pure and should’ve been friends longer

i just personally think that dean doesn’t have any more capacity to have romantic feelings for men than he does for women. if anything, maybe less. i mean the relationships dean had with men (benny, crowley) weren’t more romantic than his relationship with lisa or anna. personally i’d see most of dean’s relationships as more sexual or friendly or crushes, with the two exceptions of cas and cassie as also being romantic. so i don’t think dean has more romantic feelings towards one gender than the other, which is why i don’t really see him as homoromantic. him being demiromantic however i absolutely agree with; i see that as fitting his character a lot. i think it’s less about gender and more about the way he builds relationships.

one again, both our headcanons are ultimately equally valid, these are just my personal opinions . i’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you, i’m just sharing my thoughts :)

You are invalidating anything. I’m happy to discuss. :) Cassie is the best example of “romantic.” It’s the closest to a portrayal of what you would expect in a romantic relationship. I could argue around it (Dean got caught up in the idea of love or some such thing) but objectively watching, it’s clear that it was meant as an average one-episode romantic pairing. I think this pairing only gets discussed to the extinct that it is does, because it is Dean’s only classic “romantic” pairing. That’s pretty telling. As for Lisa, yes, absolutely her and Ben are a package deal. But in the show there was an over emphasis in that and little to show Dean’s feelings towards Lisa directly. If he just talked about one of them, he was more likely to talk about Ben, which I’m not saying is wrong. Ben was like his kid, but that’s just it. The whole arc with them was about Dean experiencing a family. Would he have even stayed with Lisa for as long as he did if not for Ben? The argument that Dean wasn’t in a place to love, I don’t know. That didn’t stop Sam when he was in the same position. Sam/Amelia was unhealthy, but he did say he loved her more than once. It’s not just that Dean didn’t say he was in love with Lisa, nothing really showed it either. Anyway, I didn’t realize that the original thought was about whether Dean’s relationships with men were *different* than his relationships with woman. I would actually say yes, for sure. Not different as in more or less romantic (because mostly there was no romance)... but different. His closest relationships with men (none human interestingly but male-coded so okay) were Benny, Crowley, and Cas. The reasons these all felt different was because of the connection. Like an unspoken understanding and tension when there was lack of understanding. A back and forth. And a depth to the relationships. His closest relationship with woman were... Lisa and Jo? Lisa was written to be in the supportive role, she was constantly supporting Dean, but there lacked a back and forth challenging one another. Dean flirted with Jo, but there was a lack of ever getting on the same page at all. Some people say Dean saw her like a sister, but to me, it was just never that deep at all. This doesn’t prove he is incapable of experiencing romantic feelings towards woman, but it does show that he mostly doesn’t. To anyone actually - it’s rare at least. (Added note. As for his friendships, yes, I absolutely agree with you. He is great at establishing repertoire. His familiar relationships are also something that belong in another category [Jack, Kevin, Charlie, Bobby] and it’s easy to contrast the different way he interacts with them as well.)

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually... their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

Supernatural is a show about people sitting on benches

Sam in 12x09 - First Blood