(good thoughts... just piggybacking on a few more thoughts here). Cas’s relationship with Kelly is one of the biggest reason I see him as gay being the closet to correct label (and also “queer”). But if you are talking about “coding,” there is something especially gay-coded about Cas/Kelly, as Cas was “let me buy you a house and take care of you and raise your kid” -- all while ZERO romantic overtones.That isn’t to say men and women only being friends defines their sexuality -- but from a story standpoint? Kelly was basically a surrogate. Which Kelly being a “surrogate” via rape no less, makes me hate her storyline but that’s another rant. From Cas’s perspective only, if they had wanted him to be straight, bi, or pan... he could have been in a relationship with Kelly to be closer to stepdad material or even, Jack could have been his own biological child. Anyway, where gay label doesn’t fit for me at all, is as much as Cas shows very little interest in women, he also doesn’t show interest in men -- outside of Dean at least. Like you said, that leans demi -- or gray or ace, all which seem as much queer than gay. Adding also, I tend to use labels as characters might use them for themselves. I’m not sure that Cas would define his sexuality in any one way, which is why queer works to allow him to just be in a space of his own. (As for gender identity, so many on tumblr push for non-binary Cas, but I haven’t read any evidence that he would choose to identify any other way than male. Even in a female vessel. Case study: Benjamin, even after a century with a female vessel, still uses he/him. Of course, I suspect gender and angel study could be a book of its own.)

Why insert romance into one of the only shows that cherish platonic love more?

I talked to a respectful destiel shipper a couple of days ago and while they were completely respectful, there is one thing I can't understand for the life of me. Why does there have to be romance in everything? I am aroace which is probably part of it, but why can't platonic love exist? ( This isn't meant to be a dig at wincest shippers. I am very well aware you guys know the difference between fanon and canon and love the brother/soulmate/best friend/parent or adult child relationship of Sam and Dean just as much as I from a non-shipper point of view do.) Why does everyone have to kiss or have sex? Platonic love does exist and it baffles me that Dean and Cass can't just be friends even with Cass' goodbye scene. I guess I feel like they see romantic love in everything and it irks me a bit. Maybe destiel shippers are young? I'm 15 though so why would that be a factor? Is it more society's fault than anyone else's?

Why is there so much emphasis on romantic/sexual love and not a lot on platonic relationships? The one show that actually puts emphasis on a relationship that is platonic. The one show that has Sam and Dean choose each other over any romantic interest. The one show that has two brothers in a QPR. The one show that has a possible a-spec reading of one or both brothers. (I've only ever seen one for Dean but I'm sure there is one for Sam as well. ("Sex is sex and love is Sam." I love this quote so thank you to whoever wrote that.)) The one show that has Dean waiting for Sam in heaven because heaven isn't perfect without his brother. Why do they watch this show if they want a focus on romantic interests? I just think if they want a show about romance there are other shows available. Especially if you want representation. Why torture themselves when there is nothing there? ( I see the speech at the end as platonic but even if it was not it wouldn't change anything. At the most it's unrequited.)

Not to mention there are problems with wanting it in canon. ( Shipping it in fanon only is a whole other thing but while I'm sure there are destiel shippers who may do this I'm talking about ones who actually wanted it/saw it( from Dean's side) in canon.) The first problem is Dean canonically is straight. Plenty of evidence for that. The second thing is his love for Sam. Canonically they have left love interests and friends for each other. There is no way in canon that Dean doesn't dump Cass at some point even if Dean was bisexual. Dean could be literally any sexuality but if Sam existed and he was ever aware of it Cass would be fed to the wolves. Also, I don't even like Cass ( I'm a Sam-leaning bibro who is still mad at Cass for breaking Sam's wall and rendering Sam's sacrifice in season 5 meaningless by saying yes to Lucifer in season 11 and messing everything up.) but Cass is literally an angel. Angels are jerks and I think they got that from Chuck but they are also warriors meant to be in an army. I don't even like him, but I know it's a disservice to his character.

That being said shoutout to respectful destiel shippers. I can't say I understand but I thank you for being respectful because a lot of destiel shippers (hellers) are not.

I’m asexual (and a destiel shipper) and I agree with some of what you said. I get annoyed when fan make *everything* about shipping - when that’s all that seems to get discussed, when you have trouble finding any place in fandom for enjoying a relationship between characters on a platonic or familiar level and feel like you can’t... it can get tiring. I’ve given up trying to read Sam and Dean (brothers) fanfiction because even when it is tagged as non-romance, it too often goes there (yikes, my eyes!). Platonic/familiar anything can be hard to find. On the other hand, I support other fans for enjoying a show for any reason, so if what they enjoy is shipping, I don’t want to take that away. It just is the way it is?  Like I said, I do enjoy Destiel ship, and for me, it’s because they have a strong bond without revolving around sex. The genuine bond part most of all. It’s like the writing and story had actual time to focus and build a relationship and build up dynamic and that’s not something I’d get if you are trying to get me to go enjoy a “romance show” instead.  I can enjoy them platonically too, but it just feels like the characters have a longing for something else too.  There is part of me that wishes - or at least understands - why fans would want Destiel canon and that’s because it gives it validity. However, I’m also wary because I think the writers would mess it up.  The ending how it stands though is the actual worst. They half-acknowledged the ship, “killed” one-half the ship (bury your gays), only to have him resurrected off screen but unacknowledged. It’s shit writing to say the least. I can’t even imagine what they would do if they tried to make Destiel canon in prior seasons -- though I think bisexual!Dean would have been good representation. I disagree that Dean is obviously straight. I mean, I thought that for a long time too. But if you ignore what he says, it very much adds up that he is a closeted bisexual. And not in the way that fans make every character bisexual, I mean textually in show. Too many moments to even list here, unrelated to Cas as well moments. Dean also wouldn’t ever have to choose between Cas and Sam. That’s why Cas is ALREADY an exception to the story. Cas comes and goes from the narrative (dies and comes back to life too). Cas works independently and also with Dean. Hypothetically, they could be in a romantic relationship and not much would need to change. Cas would have no human exceptions of romance “should” look like and wouldn’t ever get between Sam and Dean. Cas even listed Dean loving Sam as one of the reasons that he (Cas) loves Dean. So no choice needed. As for Castiel, yeah, he is an angel. But... the show far deconstructed the notion that an angel is merely an warrior, angel of the lord. ESPECIALLY for Cas, fallen angel, who chose freewill, became human, chooses humanity at every opportunity. And I like the idea of Asexual!Cas, but angels are not inherently incapable of sexual or romantic attraction. Biggest outliers being Gabriel (sex at least) and Serafina (romance!). Cas is an outlier too, where ever he ends up.  

Listen. I like Jack, I do. And I love that Cas loves Jack. But I think a lot of people forget why he loves Jack. Why his purpose became protecting Jack and being Jack’s father. It’s not because it comes naturally to him, or because he made the decision to do it unprompted. He’s an angel, not a father.

In the womb, Jack showed Cas the utopian future he was going to bring into existence. Cas with his wings back, Sam running through a field, and Dean looking at Cas with happiness and saying “thank you”. That’s just what we know he saw. He might have seen more. And that’s what Cas was working for. That’s why he was protecting Jack so vehemently, even at the expense of his friendship with Dean and Sam, even in the face of Jack killing Mary; he thought that if he protected Jack, it would all work out in the end, and that future would come to fruition.

Everyone always thinks the best of Cas as Jack’s father, but he loved Jack and cared so much about Jack because he wanted that future. Jack was his purpose. He wanted what Jack showed him, and was willing to go to any lengths to get it.

AND HE NEVER GOT IT.

Jack lied to him, to get him to protect him, to get him to be the father that he wanted. Jack chose him as his father, not the other way around, and he manipulated him into being what he wanted with visions of the “future”. He showed him what he wanted most, to get him on his side. He truly was Lucifer’s son all along.

Even if the cut scenes of the future from the script weren’t canon, I still think Jack lied. There’s NO WAY Jack showed him the future that actually happened, and Cas was motivated by that. No way. None. Himself being taken by the empty, Dean being killed on a stake by vampires, Sam having a kid he names Dean and dying of old age. Yeah, that sure seems like a purpose to rally behind alright! (that was sarcasm btw)

And I think Cas was still holding out hope for whatever future he did see when he was taken by the empty. I think he still believed in Jack then, and still thought it would all turns out okay. But it didn’t. Because Jack lied to him.

Yes, I think Jack basically taped into Castiel’s desires. Because the three images shown to Cas are exactly what Cas desired. a) Cas with wings/powers again. Season 12 Cas was feeling especially useless, so of course he would want his full powers, but also the wings... I don’t think that was even explored enough how much he missed them (although he said at least once that he did, so yes). b) Dean happy and appreciating Cas. Need I say more? Pretty much on the nose of what Cas wanted from Dean. c) Sam - vague but generic Sam in a good place. Cas wishes Sam well and all that. The other reason I don’t think Jack showed Cas any version of a future is that... Jack never showed any ability to predict the future. Even the most powerful beings (Chuck, Amara, Death, etc) were murky on the exact future, but aside on that, Jack... never had seer-like powers. The question then becomes did Jack show a version of a future that he (Jack) wanted/planned to create? Maybe. What we know of Jack he did want for his family to be happy, so sure, baby Jack could also have generally wanted to create said paradise. I agree 100% that it was still manipulation. It is why it took me SO long to warm up to Jack. Through manipulation, he took away both Cas and Kelly’s freewill. But I also think Cas did grow to love Jack for his own sake, not merely for the “future.” As for the empty, maybe Cas did still have faith in Jack. Which wouldn’t be totally misplace though? Technically, Jack did bring back the world and get Cas out of the empty and the writers might argue that “paradise” is really Heaven after they “fixed” it. (I have all kinds of issues with this interpretation, because the rest is terrible, but still, you can see that the writers were trying for this faux perfect happy ending.). But I agree, it’s faux and most about the ending was terrible.

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually… their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

okay that’s a great take and headcanoning dean as aro is absoltuely valid, but since you’re answering on my post which was more about dean not having a different/less healthy relationship with one gender than with the other, i’m gonna take the liberty to answer to your arguments with my personal headcanon. i still think your take on dean’s sexuality is absolutely valid though, i’m not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my opinion.

i personally think cassie and dean were very much in love. i don’t see the relationship only lasting a few weeks as a sign of dean not loving her; if anything for me it means he was ‘too’ in love with her; he loved her so much that he couldn’t stand to lie to her, and wanted a healthy relationship between them (as i said the pilot shows us dean views keeping the supernatural from his SO as unhealthy) but by telling her only a few weeks into the relationship, when it wasn’t built enough yet for her to trust him so completely as to believe something so ridiculous from her pov as the existence of vampires and werewolves, it ended up breaking them up. about dean never mentioning her again; that’s entirely because of the writers and actors; the one dean was supposed to end up with at the end of s5 was cassie, but megalyn echikunwoke couldn’t play the part so they gave that role to lisa.

i don’t know if i’d say dean was in love with lisa, either. them always being ‘ben and lisa’ makes sense though, if you’re in a relationship with someone and that someone has a child, you absolutely have to see them both as a unit and recognize by that dating the parent you’re also accepting a role as a coparent, and that you can’t enter a relationship without entering a family in this case. one of the things that generally breaks a relationship between a single parent and someone else is that that someone makes the mistake to think they can be a relationship with the parent yet not take the part of a parent for the child as well; dean doesn’t make that mistake at all, he immediately embraces his role as a parental figure, which isn’t surprising, since dean is very parental and loves kids anyway.

i do think he didn’t have a relationship because of his work. whenever dean got a ‘break’ with hunting, he did end up having a relationship with a woman he seemingly was in love with or falling in love with. during the stanford era it was cassie, when he was at sonny’s it was robin. so my personal view on dean and lisa’s relationship is that their first meetings in stanford era and s3 showed dean that he could possibly fall in love with her and have a relationship with her if he got a break, which is why he came back to her in s5; but he couldn’t really fall in love with her as he could’ve if he’d somehow moved in with her in s3, because he was recovering from an enormous amount of loss and trauma; it was the first time he had a break since s1, and so the trauma of hell, the pressure of the apocalypse as well as the loss of jo, ellen, etc but mainly sam is weighting on him. i think if it hadn’t been for this he could’ve fallen in love with her, or if they’d spend enough time together for him to heal a little more from his loss and have the emotional capacity for a romantic feeling of his own.

i agree with you on jo, i do think he turned her down for that reason exactly, i just think it was a specific case of him seeing her more like a friend or even a little sister.

i mean, anna and suzy were one night stands, for sure, (and i do think with pretty much all his one night stands that that’s all dean was looking for; having fun for a night and that’s it, without seeking anything romantic) but he also did have a certain building friendship with them beforehand though. i think they were a little bit more than one night stands, not romantically just, friendship wise. this isn’t an argument against yours at all its just their friendships were sweet and are very important to me so i remind them to anyone whenever i get a chance lmao i thought they were just very pure and should’ve been friends longer

i just personally think that dean doesn’t have any more capacity to have romantic feelings for men than he does for women. if anything, maybe less. i mean the relationships dean had with men (benny, crowley) weren’t more romantic than his relationship with lisa or anna. personally i’d see most of dean’s relationships as more sexual or friendly or crushes, with the two exceptions of cas and cassie as also being romantic. so i don’t think dean has more romantic feelings towards one gender than the other, which is why i don’t really see him as homoromantic. him being demiromantic however i absolutely agree with; i see that as fitting his character a lot. i think it’s less about gender and more about the way he builds relationships.

one again, both our headcanons are ultimately equally valid, these are just my personal opinions . i’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you, i’m just sharing my thoughts :)

You are invalidating anything. I’m happy to discuss. :) Cassie is the best example of “romantic.” It’s the closest to a portrayal of what you would expect in a romantic relationship. I could argue around it (Dean got caught up in the idea of love or some such thing) but objectively watching, it’s clear that it was meant as an average one-episode romantic pairing. I think this pairing only gets discussed to the extinct that it is does, because it is Dean’s only classic “romantic” pairing. That’s pretty telling. As for Lisa, yes, absolutely her and Ben are a package deal. But in the show there was an over emphasis in that and little to show Dean’s feelings towards Lisa directly. If he just talked about one of them, he was more likely to talk about Ben, which I’m not saying is wrong. Ben was like his kid, but that’s just it. The whole arc with them was about Dean experiencing a family. Would he have even stayed with Lisa for as long as he did if not for Ben? The argument that Dean wasn’t in a place to love, I don’t know. That didn’t stop Sam when he was in the same position. Sam/Amelia was unhealthy, but he did say he loved her more than once. It’s not just that Dean didn’t say he was in love with Lisa, nothing really showed it either. Anyway, I didn’t realize that the original thought was about whether Dean’s relationships with men were *different* than his relationships with woman. I would actually say yes, for sure. Not different as in more or less romantic (because mostly there was no romance)… but different. His closest relationships with men (none human interestingly but male-coded so okay) were Benny, Crowley, and Cas. The reasons these all felt different was because of the connection. Like an unspoken understanding and tension when there was lack of understanding. A back and forth. And a depth to the relationships. His closest relationship with woman were… Lisa and Jo? Lisa was written to be in the supportive role, she was constantly supporting Dean, but there lacked a back and forth challenging one another. Dean flirted with Jo, but there was a lack of ever getting on the same page at all. Some people say Dean saw her like a sister, but to me, it was just never that deep at all. This doesn’t prove he is incapable of experiencing romantic feelings towards woman, but it does show that he mostly doesn’t. To anyone actually - it’s rare at least. (Added note. As for his friendships, yes, I absolutely agree with you. He is great at establishing repertoire. His familiar relationships are also something that belong in another category [Jack, Kevin, Charlie, Bobby] and it’s easy to contrast the different way he interacts with them as well.)

i don’t think it’s the only reason we talk so much about cassie, i think it’s more about her being the first we see dean in love with and also like, one of the first times we see dean so vulnerable. she was a great character and also one of the only poc they didn’t kill. for once

i’d have agreed for lisa a couple months ago but i recently rewatched the show and i was surprised by how many genuinely sweet and loving moments there were between lisa and dean. i think we got so used to kind of mock their relationship and make it into this fake thing that we forget they actually were good and kinda cute together. i was really surprised when i saw this on my rewatch

sam and amelia is.. different. i think we can all agree sam’s writing in that season was shit and wildly ooc his relationships with men and women being more or less romantic was actually what i meant so i 100% agree with you on that one

i think dean had pretty good&interesting relationships with women too though, like yeah, jo, for sure, but also cassie, and even some more background characters that weren’t quite love interest but could’ve been if they stuck around longer, like suzy or casey. even him and anna had an interesting and sweet relationship, although i don’t think it was romantic at all.  but when it comes to love interests i’d say bela, jo and cassie are pretty much equivalent to his relationships with crowley, benny and cas. (i think the reason dean has more long lasting relationships with men is mostly because of. well. the lack of female characters on the show, they just keep getting killed. sexism at work again on the sexist cw show)

I agree that Dean and Lisa had tender moments and genuine care, but it also felt like going through the motions to me. Not romantic, but it’s open enough to interpretation, so that’s fine. Cassie and Suzy were both one-episode characters. If we are talking about lack of depth with Dean and women, those would be examples. Because of this short frame, Cassie is not an equivalent - in the sense that Crowley, Benny, Cas span multiple episodes or even multiple seasons. Bela and Jo are characters that span episodes but still had no depth in their relationship with Dean. There was flirting but not... Dean didn’t open up in any way or connect on a deeper level. Anna and Dean did have a short-lived connection. They have a strange relationship too, in that it felt zero romantic. But still sex. Yet, not really friendship either. It felt like maybe the writers wanted it to be more but then just... nope. Minor connection to just nothing. Anyway, I don’t really feel like I’m arguing anything in particular at this point. I  agree that the show has a huge sexist problem and not enough female characters, so maybe it could have gone another way. It definitely felt like the writers were clueless on how Dean’s relationships with men would be interpreted, so yeah, seems they also just assumed that people would accept his relationships with women even without depth because they were women. That reasoning doesn’t work with me though.

Taking another look at Sam and Eileen’s relationship and I finally realized why it’s the only canon romantic relationship he had that I enjoyed: she knows he’s a hunter

One of the things I could never excuse is how Sam used women, Dean is guilty of it as well, as a way to live a “normal” life.

He was willing to lie to Jessica for the rest of his life, even stating that he never planned to tell her anything. And then he did the same thing with Amelia, both relationships interrupted by Dean.

Anytime Sam tries to get out of the hunting life, he latches on to women to reassure himself that he’s doing the opposite of what he would in the hunting life.

Eileen broke that pattern. She knew he was a hunter and was also a hunter. It started their relationship so that it wasn’t built on lies and actually felt real, not some illusion Sam was trying to build around himself as an emotional shield.

This just makes me even more upset at the fact Eileen was never confirmed to be the blurry wife, or that there was even the blurry wife in the first place. Sam fell back into his pattern with the death of Dean, which cued him to leave the hunting life, as always.

This most likely means Sam found another woman, if it wasn’t Eileen, and rebuilt his own ideal “perfect” life that his character development should’ve destroyed years ago.

anywho, pro saileen :D

1000%.  Eileen breaks the pattern and also, she is the only woman introduced who was a position to understand Sam. “Blurry wife” was the worst idea. If she wasn’t Eileen, then it means Sam would never break the pattern of opening up about his life and forever keeping his two lives “hunter” and “normal” separate. It was one thing with Jessica. Not that secrets are okay, but he was in a place that he could have run away forever and been happy. After going towards 40-years of supernatural trauma (not to mention the extra 180 years of hell), normal was not in the cards for him. He didn’t have to hunt, but he needed to blend his two lives together. If he refused, then he would never be anything short of lonely and miserable for the rest of his life. Reason 505 that the ending was the worst. The ending had the characters end up where they always said they would. This is slightly fixed if blurry wife is Eileen.

Absolutely, I think it also helps that it seems the Supernatural writers found the capacity to write decent female characters that weren’t just in supportive positions.

I don’t understand how Sam’s character development could revert him to going back to a “normal” life outside of hunting, especially since monsters are still in existence. I think a huge character development for both Sam and Dean was learning as deep as they are in, there’s no way out and that’s okay.

I could just never really forgive Sam for the position he put Jessica in. I’m absolutely not saying he could be blamed for her death but what was their relationship even built on? You don’t have to have 100% transparency with your partner but they should at least know the basis of your whole entire life.

Me talking about my disagreement with how Sam treated Jess would involve a whole other post but I do feel there was a deep emotional connection missing on Sam’s side from hiding numerous secrets from her, same goes for Amelia.

Eileen would always be the perfect choice for him as he could blend the two lives together. The ideal family he wanted while also the honesty of his hunting life. She never tried convincing him to leave the hunting life or put aside his co-dependency with Dean, and that brought a very deep understanding connection to their relationship that he never had before.

The whole ending for Sam is just terrible. It seems he got the life he would’ve imagined with Jessica in the first season, even the part of naming his son Dean as a “memory.” At least if it was revealed to be Eileen, we would know he was happy in the long run.

Sam/Jess was meant to parallel with John/Mary, including the flaws of having secrets. With John/Mary, it could have been John who died just as easily. Regardless, her not telling the truth is what led to Sam and Dean being raised the way they did, as hunters minus the knowledge on how to arm themselves. Despite the parallels, I don’t think the fact it was the *secrets* that led to all the issues was ever addressed? Anyway, I can forgive Sam for Jess, but in no way was that a healthy relationship. Neither was Sam/Amelia. Actually, the latter was worse as Sam was older but learned nothing (and okay, if it was meant to be a step back for him, but again, the secret part of the flaw was never addressed.) Personally, for his ending, I was wanting/expecting Sam to end up running his own dispatch of hunters or becoming more into the research/men of letters side of things. So like... half-way retire from hunting. It seemed that where his arch was going in season 13-14, and it would have worked better for me, to break this idea that it has to be either/or. However, if nothing else changed, except the confirmation that he stayed with Eileen, it would be 20% better. Because at least one person in his life would be there to understand and bridge the gap for his life.

Taking another look at Sam and Eileen’s relationship and I finally realized why it’s the only canon romantic relationship he had that I enjoyed: she knows he’s a hunter

One of the things I could never excuse is how Sam used women, Dean is guilty of it as well, as a way to live a “normal” life.

He was willing to lie to Jessica for the rest of his life, even stating that he never planned to tell her anything. And then he did the same thing with Amelia, both relationships interrupted by Dean.

Anytime Sam tries to get out of the hunting life, he latches on to women to reassure himself that he’s doing the opposite of what he would in the hunting life.

Eileen broke that pattern. She knew he was a hunter and was also a hunter. It started their relationship so that it wasn’t built on lies and actually felt real, not some illusion Sam was trying to build around himself as an emotional shield.

This just makes me even more upset at the fact Eileen was never confirmed to be the blurry wife, or that there was even the blurry wife in the first place. Sam fell back into his pattern with the death of Dean, which cued him to leave the hunting life, as always.

This most likely means Sam found another woman, if it wasn’t Eileen, and rebuilt his own ideal “perfect” life that his character development should’ve destroyed years ago.

anywho, pro saileen :D

1000%.  Eileen breaks the pattern and also, she is the only woman introduced who was a position to understand Sam. “Blurry wife” was the worst idea. If she wasn’t Eileen, then it means Sam would never break the pattern of opening up about his life and forever keeping his two lives “hunter” and “normal” separate. It was one thing with Jessica. Not that secrets are okay, but he was in a place that he could have run away forever and been happy. After going towards 40-years of supernatural trauma (not to mention the extra 180 years of hell), normal was not in the cards for him. He didn’t have to hunt, but he needed to blend his two lives together. If he refused, then he would never be anything short of lonely and miserable for the rest of his life. Reason 505 that the ending was the worst. The ending had the characters end up where they always said they would. This is slightly fixed if blurry wife is Eileen.

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually… their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

okay that’s a great take and headcanoning dean as aro is absoltuely valid, but since you’re answering on my post which was more about dean not having a different/less healthy relationship with one gender than with the other, i’m gonna take the liberty to answer to your arguments with my personal headcanon. i still think your take on dean’s sexuality is absolutely valid though, i’m not trying to convince you or anything, just giving my opinion.

i personally think cassie and dean were very much in love. i don’t see the relationship only lasting a few weeks as a sign of dean not loving her; if anything for me it means he was ‘too’ in love with her; he loved her so much that he couldn’t stand to lie to her, and wanted a healthy relationship between them (as i said the pilot shows us dean views keeping the supernatural from his SO as unhealthy) but by telling her only a few weeks into the relationship, when it wasn’t built enough yet for her to trust him so completely as to believe something so ridiculous from her pov as the existence of vampires and werewolves, it ended up breaking them up. about dean never mentioning her again; that’s entirely because of the writers and actors; the one dean was supposed to end up with at the end of s5 was cassie, but megalyn echikunwoke couldn’t play the part so they gave that role to lisa.

i don’t know if i’d say dean was in love with lisa, either. them always being ‘ben and lisa’ makes sense though, if you’re in a relationship with someone and that someone has a child, you absolutely have to see them both as a unit and recognize by that dating the parent you’re also accepting a role as a coparent, and that you can’t enter a relationship without entering a family in this case. one of the things that generally breaks a relationship between a single parent and someone else is that that someone makes the mistake to think they can be a relationship with the parent yet not take the part of a parent for the child as well; dean doesn’t make that mistake at all, he immediately embraces his role as a parental figure, which isn’t surprising, since dean is very parental and loves kids anyway.

i do think he didn’t have a relationship because of his work. whenever dean got a ‘break’ with hunting, he did end up having a relationship with a woman he seemingly was in love with or falling in love with. during the stanford era it was cassie, when he was at sonny’s it was robin. so my personal view on dean and lisa’s relationship is that their first meetings in stanford era and s3 showed dean that he could possibly fall in love with her and have a relationship with her if he got a break, which is why he came back to her in s5; but he couldn’t really fall in love with her as he could’ve if he’d somehow moved in with her in s3, because he was recovering from an enormous amount of loss and trauma; it was the first time he had a break since s1, and so the trauma of hell, the pressure of the apocalypse as well as the loss of jo, ellen, etc but mainly sam is weighting on him. i think if it hadn’t been for this he could’ve fallen in love with her, or if they’d spend enough time together for him to heal a little more from his loss and have the emotional capacity for a romantic feeling of his own.

i agree with you on jo, i do think he turned her down for that reason exactly, i just think it was a specific case of him seeing her more like a friend or even a little sister.

i mean, anna and suzy were one night stands, for sure, (and i do think with pretty much all his one night stands that that’s all dean was looking for; having fun for a night and that’s it, without seeking anything romantic) but he also did have a certain building friendship with them beforehand though. i think they were a little bit more than one night stands, not romantically just, friendship wise. this isn’t an argument against yours at all its just their friendships were sweet and are very important to me so i remind them to anyone whenever i get a chance lmao i thought they were just very pure and should’ve been friends longer

i just personally think that dean doesn’t have any more capacity to have romantic feelings for men than he does for women. if anything, maybe less. i mean the relationships dean had with men (benny, crowley) weren’t more romantic than his relationship with lisa or anna. personally i’d see most of dean’s relationships as more sexual or friendly or crushes, with the two exceptions of cas and cassie as also being romantic. so i don’t think dean has more romantic feelings towards one gender than the other, which is why i don’t really see him as homoromantic. him being demiromantic however i absolutely agree with; i see that as fitting his character a lot. i think it’s less about gender and more about the way he builds relationships.

one again, both our headcanons are ultimately equally valid, these are just my personal opinions . i’m not arguing with you or trying to convince you, i’m just sharing my thoughts :)

You are invalidating anything. I’m happy to discuss. :) Cassie is the best example of “romantic.” It’s the closest to a portrayal of what you would expect in a romantic relationship. I could argue around it (Dean got caught up in the idea of love or some such thing) but objectively watching, it’s clear that it was meant as an average one-episode romantic pairing. I think this pairing only gets discussed to the extinct that it is does, because it is Dean’s only classic “romantic” pairing. That’s pretty telling. As for Lisa, yes, absolutely her and Ben are a package deal. But in the show there was an over emphasis in that and little to show Dean’s feelings towards Lisa directly. If he just talked about one of them, he was more likely to talk about Ben, which I’m not saying is wrong. Ben was like his kid, but that’s just it. The whole arc with them was about Dean experiencing a family. Would he have even stayed with Lisa for as long as he did if not for Ben? The argument that Dean wasn’t in a place to love, I don’t know. That didn’t stop Sam when he was in the same position. Sam/Amelia was unhealthy, but he did say he loved her more than once. It’s not just that Dean didn’t say he was in love with Lisa, nothing really showed it either. Anyway, I didn’t realize that the original thought was about whether Dean’s relationships with men were *different* than his relationships with woman. I would actually say yes, for sure. Not different as in more or less romantic (because mostly there was no romance)... but different. His closest relationships with men (none human interestingly but male-coded so okay) were Benny, Crowley, and Cas. The reasons these all felt different was because of the connection. Like an unspoken understanding and tension when there was lack of understanding. A back and forth. And a depth to the relationships. His closest relationship with woman were... Lisa and Jo? Lisa was written to be in the supportive role, she was constantly supporting Dean, but there lacked a back and forth challenging one another. Dean flirted with Jo, but there was a lack of ever getting on the same page at all. Some people say Dean saw her like a sister, but to me, it was just never that deep at all. This doesn’t prove he is incapable of experiencing romantic feelings towards woman, but it does show that he mostly doesn’t. To anyone actually - it’s rare at least. (Added note. As for his friendships, yes, I absolutely agree with you. He is great at establishing repertoire. His familiar relationships are also something that belong in another category [Jack, Kevin, Charlie, Bobby] and it’s easy to contrast the different way he interacts with them as well.)

once again seeing posts on my dash saying that dean is bisexual yet cannot have a real healthy romantic or sexual relationship with a woman, so here’s a few fun little reminders

- dean and cassie were in love and had a sweet, healthy relationship together (healthier, in fact, than jess and sam’s, since he did tell her about the supernatural; he in fact does point out to sam that him not telling the truth to jess is unhealthy in the pilot, and later that season we’re shown dean doesn’t do the same)

- until soulless sam showed up, dean was living a happy, healthy life with lisa as his romantic and sexual partner and even coparenting a child with her for a year

- every time dean has a sexual relationship with a woman, it’s later described as fun for both; they in fact often have a friendly and sweet relationship before they decide to make it sexual; for example suzy and anna, with whom dean didn’t ‘perform’, just was himself and then was surprised but happy when they made a move to take things further

- on several occasions, dean was propositioned by women and declined. jo is the most memorable one; dean was aware that his feelings for her were not what she wanted, and he turned her down gently. dean is more than capable to understand and act on his feelings for women, he doesn’t feel like he ‘has’ to sleep with them. he sometimes even just flirts for fun without actual ulterior motive; not because he feels like he has to, but because he enjoys flirting (his own subconscious as pamela tells us so)

dean’s had plenty of healthy and sweet relationships with women in the show. just because the one who ended up being the best for him is cas who is in a male vessel doesn’t invalidate these previous relationships. of all the horrible things dean had to live through, two things dean has always seemed to find fun and enjoyable were food and sex, which there’s nothing wrong with, once again!

absolutely nothing wrong with people having their own headcanons, of course. personally im just a little tired, as a bisexual, of that good old stereotype of bi women being just straight girls in denial and bi men being just gay men in denial. dean is bi. he enjoys romantic and sexual intimacy with men and women. and honestly good for him. he deserves to enjoy it and he deserves to have fun with his bisexuality.

Bisexual Dean adds up. However, I can also entertain the idea of Dean being on the aroromanic scale (if not aro, then gray-romantic or demi) or, less supported textually homoromantic (as in bisexual homoromantic; however, that would be based on the unknown). Personally, I do not see Dean with “real, healthy” romantic relationships with women. Sexual? Absolutely. Romantic feelings? Up for debate. Cassie is probably the closest example for us seeing Dean have romantic feelings, but actually... their relationship was said to have lasted all of a couple of weeks. Then after they were reunited and parted again, Dean never spoke about or saw her again. I’m not sure how deep that relationship can be categorized. Lisa is the only long-term relationship he was ever in. With that whole storyline, there was a weird focus on her and Ben being the family he always wanted. Family. Never “in love.” Never love. Never the woman who lights up his life or some other romantic trope line. She is nearly always referred to as “Lisa and Ben,” and stated as “family.” And you can actually compare this to how Sam and his various romantic relationships were treated. Dean obviously cared about Lisa, no debate, but it is up for debate whether he was in love, including the fact that he was only with her and Ben because he promised Sam to try a normal life. Jo is actually a good example of him not reciprocating romantically. Again, up for debate, I guess, but it seems he turned her down because he knew she wanted more or felt she deserved more. Like he could flirt and in the right circumstance, he would sleep with her. More than that, not so much. Susy and Anna were show to be classic one-night stands, along with other shown or implied off screen flings. Sexual but not romantic. Also it’s up for debate I guess whether not having romantic relationships was because he chooses to focus on work, or whether he has a genuine lack of desire or lack of romantic attraction. I don’t have a strong view one or the other on that part. I guess with Cassie, I don’t put him as all the way aro, but also not all the way romantic/not sure.

Lexa’s Decisions at Mt Weather were Unwise: Part 2

Part 1

Every defense for Lexa taking the deal at Mt Weather is that she made the decision that was best for her people. The question becomes: was it best for her people?



Part 2: Lexa saved 60 people at the cost of hundreds and thousands of people’s lives.

By taking the deal at Mt Weather, Lexa saved 60 people in Mt Weather. In so doing, she allowed HUNDREDS of people to die (or negated the sacrifice they already made) and she risked THOUSANDS of their lives in the future. In this essay, I am going to go into the data and really talk the numbers of how many people Lexa didn’t save by taking the deal (and the ones she did).

Here’s who Lexa saved:



Here’s the people Lexa didn’t save:

Total = 318-338 people who Lexa didn’t save.

If you are following this:

Lexa saved 60 people, while 300+ people, who she could have saved, died. That’s not a lot of kudos to her. She could have certainly saved 250 people in TonDC instead of the 60 (better deal), and she probably could have save ALL the people at Mt Weather - grounder prisoners, skaikru, and reapers - at an additional expense:

Keep reading

Why am I discovering this 2016 essay just now? I’ve been telling this since I discovered the show in 2018, and oddly few people seem to ever make this points, but someone did, very eloquently, 6 years ago.

I can just nod in agreement with all of this - as well as all from the other parts of this essay. I’ll just add that the situation the Grounder/Skaikru army found itself in 2x14-2x15 was a uniquely favourable one, so it seems like an even bigger waste to pass that opportunity: due to the fact that Cage and Emerson were onto the fact that there was an inside man in MW and were hoping to fool the army into getting close to they could kill them all with acid fog, and Bellamy realizing this in time and destroying the acid fog machine, the Mountain Men had found themselves in an almost defenseless position where they were not able to use any of their biggest weapons: the army had gotten too close to the MW itself for the Mountain Men to use any missiles against them. The desperate position was summed up by Emerson, who informed Cage that the only defense they had left was - the door. This desperate position was the exact reason why the Wallaces offered the deal to the people they looked down on as “savages”. When your arrogant enemy is offering a deal, it is a sure sign they are desperate. (The door did not prove to be a strong enough defense either - it was being breached just as Lexa announced the deal.)

However, my new perspective on all of this, in hindsight, after having seen the entire show, is that I find it impossible to go all Watsonian discuss this one, and many other unwise decisions made by the characters on The 100, in terms of the characters themselves. The fact that Jason Rothenberg and Kim Shumway insisted and seemed to really think that Lexa’s deal with Mount Weather was a smart political decision says enough in itself, and so does the rest of the show: the various characters’ poor decisions and inconsistent reasoning was due to terrible writing, by people who seemed to have less understanding of military tactics , politics and pragmatism than an average 5-year old, and I’m not even gonna get into their bizarre views on morality., which culminated with the “let yourself be assimilated into the genocidal imperalistic hypocritical aliens’ hive mind” ending.

(Also, the fact that no one ever mentioned the Reapers after season 2 was my first big hint that something was terribly wrong with the show’s writers and their ability to keep things ever remotely consistent. They were able to write single episodes or storylines that appeared to be amazing at the time, but would forget all about them the next reason and retcon them or make the characters act like they have amnesia about everything that happened in previous seasons.)

As I recall, there actually was a lot of meta written about this phenomenally idiotic plot “twist” at the time, but much of it was shouted down by people who insisted on focusing on the Clarke/Lexa relationship and what influence that might have had on Lexa’s decision. Debating whether she had “betrayed” Clarke. Pointing out what a good leader she was because she “put her people’s welfare ahead of her personal feelings.”

It felt like shouting into the void to point out over and over that the stupidity of Lexa’s move had nothing whatsoever to do with Clarke!

It was a bad move for two reasons:

1. Militarily… The Grounder army, with an assist from Skaikru, was finally in a position to once and for all get rid of these people who had been preying on them for 57 years. Heck, Lexa had JUST GIVEN AN IMPASSIONED SPEECH TO HER GENERALS about how the army was going to wipe out their greatest enemy! A speech that was greeted by cheers because… these were warriors. Fighting, and winning, was their whole reason for being. Saving a paltry 60 Grounders, instead of guaranteeing the future safety of ALL of them, was a totally irrational choice.

2. Politically… Lexa had an alliance with Skaikru and broke it. That is NEVER a good plan, because if you were a faithless ally once, no potential future ally would ever trust you again. That point was verbalized by Lincoln, who called Lexa’s move “dishonorable,” and tacitly agreed to by Indra, who disobeyed Lexa’s orders and set Lincoln free.

And none of it, absolutely none of the salient points about whether or not Lexa had made a wise choice, had a single thing to do with Clarke. While it was true that Clarke, and all the Sjaikru, were left in grave danger because of her decision, that in itself wasn’t the reason why it was a bad decision.

The insistence by Rothenberg, Shumway and company on framing the plot twist as a personal decision by Lexa, was simply another instance of them writing the story one way, and then later extra-textually trying to twist its meaning into something altogether different. This happened all the time, all the way through to the end of the series, and every time they did it, it made no sense.

JRoth’s “explanation” why Lexa’s decision was supposedly a politically smart one was absolutely hilarious. He actually said, among other things, “She could always defeat Mount Weather other time.”

We could try to come up with all sorts of Watsonian reasons why Lexa made that decision, but the Doylist reason was simple: she needed to do that so Clarke would be pushed into a situation where she had no choice but to kill all the Mountain Men. JRoth has said that this was always the end goal for the writers - that Kim Shumway had insisted that Clarke would kill every man, woman and child in the Mountain.

So, obviously, Lexa was a character created to make that outcome happen in that particular storyline. That’s why she was portrayed first as a determined ruthless commander who would do anything to win the war against MW, even letting 250 of her people die (which, of course, was mainly because the writers wanted her to push Clarke into letting it happen), and we had Indra saying she is a great Commander because she is ruthless…(Side note: OP also makes a really good point in another post that letting people die in Tondc really wasn’t necessary.) And then suddenly she turns out to be the opposite of that, and backs out of a battle and wastes a great opportunity to beat her old enemy, in order to save 60 people and not risk any more lives of her warriors?! How does a commander unwilling to risk their warriors’ lives even go into battle? And that after letting 250 of her people die…to save 60 people, not to actually win the war and decisively defeat Mount Weather?

It makes no sense because the 100 writers prioritized plot over character: the characters were just pawns to fulfill certain roles, which may not have been that bad if they had been more skilled and able to make it all make sense in terms of characterization. At first they were doing it with supporting characters (I’m sure they had no idea how popular Lexa would become - and once they did, this is when defending her deal with MW as a politically and militarily sound one became important to them), but over time it became all the characters, including Clarke, as seen in her nonsensical, inconsistent and awful season 7 characterization (if one can even call it that).

For JRoth, it was: plot over character, and extra-textual reasons (from the desire to be edgy or get hype and praise and ratings, to his personal good or bad relationships with certain actors) over plot.

Excellent additions to a really old post! I find myself mostly still in agreement with what I originally said. Yet, years removed and having watched the rest of the seasons now, I can see clearly that a rational (Watsonian as you say) explanation can’t fully explain, because the explanation isn’t there. I can see this now, because similar irrational choices happens in season 3-7. At EVERY turn, Jroth and the other writers wrote their characters to choose illogical choices. Anytime a character was presented with a choice, the worst choice possibly was chosen. Not because it makes sense for them to choose it but because that’s the worst choice. I stopped following The 100 in season 5 because it left me in believably completely. I’m tempted to write up a list of every choice in The 100 that is completely illogical. Edgy for the sake of edgy is what I would call it. Lexa’s choice at Mt Weather still remains one of the poorest thought out characterizations.

I know it's been said but like it's so dumb that they show angels/demons in heaven and hell in spn. Zachariah's got three faces and one of those is a lion, Cas is the size of the Chrysler building... and then it's just Kurt Fuller and Misha Collins. Do all angels, despite hating humans, just chill in them while doing random admin in heaven? Is it a psychic imprint? Is Jimmy Novak stashed somewhere in a cupboard while Cas visits upstairs? What's with the sandpit? Why is does this it maybe is a show sometimes is it make sense?! Hmm?!?!

Both angels and their vessels can enter Heaven. That’s pretty obvious in later seasons when they are coming and going back in forth. We see them jump from the sandpit and right into door 42 in Heaven. Their vessels are not left behind. I think initially the writers played with vessels NOT being allowed into Heaven, as seen when Castiel is zapped away from Jimmy to go to Heaven. That was clearly adapted when we began to have more and more scenes that take place in Heaven, the concept of Heaven evolved somewhat. (Also, if vessels were left behind, the whole consent issue would really come into play more. Imagine after a million years together that Metatron’s vessel says “hell no” when Metatron tries to come back from Heaven to Earth. Too complicated to go through that every five minutes.) So it seems the rule is that vessels can enter heaven and the angel’s grace protects them from getting burnt out For angels that aren’t supposed to be in vessels while in Heaven yet still appear as human, it’s like Zach said. Angels appear human to humans - and we viewers are human (it’s a meta explanation). There’s also the matter of budget, where they didn’t have the budget to completely create CGI beings. Either way, angels can appear human if they want to, so that’s what we get. In the case of Hell, physical beings can enter Hell - as per Dean and Sam’s daytrips into Hell. Physical beings are also allowed into Purgatory. The demon souls and human souls in Hell are.... ghosts, which of course means they appear human in Hell. Demons are twisted souls, so may not appear strictly human or perhaps they can appear any way they want to (evidence when a demon appears as Sam to Bobby).

ATLA Rant

Honestly, bless that ATLA came out on Netflix. The benefit is two-fold because not only do I get to watch the show on my actual television instead of my phone BUT it is back in the main-stream consciousness with a new ferocity! It’s the original fandom’s time to shine lol I am back on my ATLA trip and since I’m done with school now I will have some time to get back on my b and indulge. Really digging that Tokka thing again,,, also,,,, I never really shipped Kataang but literally it would never happen because he is a 12-year-old child and Katara was well on her way to being 16 and is literally his mother. Nope. Maybe in a few years when/if he grows out of his infatuation and she is no longer babying him as a younger brother. 

As someone who has dated someone nearly two years younger I can honestly say that if I were a 14/15 year old I would never look at a 12/13-year-old little boy who OBVIOUSLY has a baby crush on me and whom I feel compelled to mother over. Not hating on anyone, fr, because Katara is a wonderful person for many reasons and so is Aang but nope. When I was 19 is when I looked at my 17-year-old bf ( he was a year and 6 months younger than me but you know.. also I waited till he turned 18 to date him because it was too weird saying we were a full 2 year age difference idk) and thought it would work. Any younger and not a dang shot no. I like them together as adults or young adults but as I rewatched the show I just can’t see it happening this way.. you know?

When I was 20, I dated someone who was 19 (and immature). I remind myself so much of Katara with Aang and huge reason I can’t get behind Ka/taang. I even used the words “I’m confused” about our relationship. I dated him because it was expected. But I viewed him as a child and had to mother him… and it was attraction killer. I cared about him but not romantic - I was just too young to understand at that time.  If the writers were really set on Ka/taang, I would have preferred to have the series end with everyone single. Then in LOK, they could have filled in the backstory that said Katara and Aang didn’t get together until 12 years later. I say 12 years because that was the amount of time before Roku married his wife after having a crush on her. It could be a different amount of time… but I think that story works. In Roku’s case, he left to learn how to be the avatar and came back grown up, but the same could go for Aang. Even if Aang learned the elements, he still had a lot to learn about life and his role in the world. With passage of time and growing up, Aang and Katara’s relationship would reset and it’s believable they could have an entirely different dynamic at that point.  Personally, I feel the same about Tokka. She has to grow up too. Even moreso with the larger age gap.

girl, fair. I get that. With me and my ex I literally told him I felt like I was his mother or he wanted me to be both his gf and his mother. I’m not saying age gaps are bad or don’t work, every relationship is completely different. BUT I gotta say it made the relationship hard and confusing and a total attraction killer, as you put it. We left things off under the pretense that things may work out in a few years but for now we are in two different life arenas….That’s my personal input on that lol.

With Katara and Aang I agree that perhaps it would be more organic after time passes and they grow up a bit, you know? 12 years is alot though hahaa. Same with Toph and Sokka but girls mature much faster anyway.

Age gaps matter less the older one gets. Maturity plays a factor as well, as does... just where you are in life. Ka/taang wouldn’t have to be 12 years later. lol. I would recommend at least 4 years though, so Aang would be 16, which seems to be the age of “adult” in the world of Avatar. Same with Toph - girls may often mature faster, but if we are talking about Sokka who is four years older, that makes consent sticky, so best if they are both adults. 

ATLA Rant

Honestly, bless that ATLA came out on Netflix. The benefit is two-fold because not only do I get to watch the show on my actual television instead of my phone BUT it is back in the main-stream consciousness with a new ferocity! It’s the original fandom’s time to shine lol I am back on my ATLA trip and since I’m done with school now I will have some time to get back on my b and indulge. Really digging that Tokka thing again,,, also,,,, I never really shipped Kataang but literally it would never happen because he is a 12-year-old child and Katara was well on her way to being 16 and is literally his mother. Nope. Maybe in a few years when/if he grows out of his infatuation and she is no longer babying him as a younger brother. 

As someone who has dated someone nearly two years younger I can honestly say that if I were a 14/15 year old I would never look at a 12/13-year-old little boy who OBVIOUSLY has a baby crush on me and whom I feel compelled to mother over. Not hating on anyone, fr, because Katara is a wonderful person for many reasons and so is Aang but nope. When I was 19 is when I looked at my 17-year-old bf ( he was a year and 6 months younger than me but you know.. also I waited till he turned 18 to date him because it was too weird saying we were a full 2 year age difference idk) and thought it would work. Any younger and not a dang shot no. I like them together as adults or young adults but as I rewatched the show I just can’t see it happening this way.. you know?

When I was 20, I dated someone who was 19 (and immature). I remind myself so much of Katara with Aang and huge reason I can’t get behind Ka/taang. I even used the words "I'm confused" about our relationship. I dated him because it was expected. But I viewed him as a child and had to mother him... and it was attraction killer. I cared about him but not romantic - I was just too young to understand at that time.  If the writers were really set on Ka/taang, I would have preferred to have the series end with everyone single. Then in LOK, they could have filled in the backstory that said Katara and Aang didn’t get together until 12 years later. I say 12 years because that was the amount of time before Roku married his wife after having a crush on her. It could be a different amount of time... but I think that story works. In Roku’s case, he left to learn how to be the avatar and came back grown up, but the same could go for Aang. Even if Aang learned the elements, he still had a lot to learn about life and his role in the world. With passage of time and growing up, Aang and Katara’s relationship would reset and it’s believable they could have an entirely different dynamic at that point.  Personally, I feel the same about Tokka. She has to grow up too. Even moreso with the larger age gap.

let's talk about the sheer necessity of pairing zuko and katara together at the series finale.

firstly, zuko and katara have always spent the season's finales together so it only seems fit to continue that tradition.

but you may think that they didn't HAVE to be paired together. I've often seen posts stating Zuko could've gone with anyone but I honestly believe it HAD to be Katara. In the finale, they needed something only the other person knew in order to be saved. Katara needed Zuko's ability to redirect lightning to be saved from Azula and then also have the time to save him. Zuko needed Katara's healing abilities to be saved from the damage Azula's lightning caused and to capitalize on the moments he had before death. Who else in the gAang could have provided those vital attributes? (I'm excluding Aang because clearly his destiny was to spend the finale with the Firelord therefore he COULD NOT have been there for Katara or Zuko. The narrative/story just doesn't allow it.)

If for some weird reason let's say Zuko didn't go to fight his own sister and instead Katara went with Suki or Sokka or Toph. Any of them would have taken the lighting for Katara but they would've immediately died because they don't know how to redirect lightning. Hence Katara's healing abilities would have been useless.

If Zuko had chosen Sokka or Suki or Toph to go with him, YES he would've still taken the lighting for them, but none of them would have been able to save him in time because they don't have healing abilities.

It HAD to be Zuko and Katara together at the end.

Well, part of Zuko’s arc was about him facing Azula, so no one could take his place. That wouldn’t even make sense as the duel was about the thrown. That said, he COULD have gone alone. Azusa was unhinged, so it could be written so he wins on his own. If Katara (or any second person) wasn’t there, he wouldn’t have been hit with lightning, so that wouldn’t be a concern.  That said, that ending would feel insufficient. Having Katara there, brings Zuko and Katara’s arcs full circle. From always fighting against one another, to fighting together. Plus, Zuko, you know, NOT being alone is important. Also, I agree Katara is the best one who could beat Azula. She was the only one  from team Avatar ever to get an upper hand on Azula.  Zuko no doubt recognize this, so it’s reasonable that he would ask her first. Add that Sokka would have the least to bring to a fight against Azula, and Zuko had the least bonding with Toph. 

as may 15th approaches i think it’s important for fans of atla to recognize that many people have lost sight of the original message of the show and its characters’ arcs purely for the purpose of feeling self righteous about what they ship. like a lot of you claim to be katara super fans but at the end of the day the only thing you care about is whether she ended up with zuko or aang and it’s so annoying bc i mean. can’t she just be her own person? and i say this as someone who ships zutara. realistically i don’t think either zutara or kataang should have been canon by the end of book three. they were teenagers reeling from the after effects of a war and severe trauma and these three characters esp still had so much individual growth and healing left to go through and while i love romance i think it’s time that we admit romance is not the only solution or conclusion to a narrative. it’s a medium to explore character growth through and ultimately that’s what was executed in the show but to think that the be-all, end-all for the show needed to be katara ending up with someone is strange bc the painted lady and the southern raiders were only the tip of an iceberg in regards to her own journey of healing. and the same goes for aang’s spiritual experience alone for the final episodes and for zuko beginning to come to terms with his ability to do good. it was all the tip of an iceberg and i don’t know how people could prioritize relationships between these three over looking at what each of them desperately needed as individual people 

I completely agree! Though its not only the viewers who lost perspective - but also the writers. The writers pushed Kataang in the end. I think it would have been much more powerful to have Aang have to mature enough to let Katara go. Neither of them needed to end with being in a relationship with anyone. Not that the narrative had to imply that Aang would be alone forever, just that he should learn a) he can't make someone love him just because he wants it nor should romance be a reward for being the avatar and b) at seasons' end, he was 12/13. It would have been just as satisfying for him to agree he was going to focus on rebuilding the world for awhile. That’s his arc anyway. By making the last moment romance, it cheapened his arc. If the narrative had ended ATLA without romance, I might have been able to get behind a Kataang implied past in LOK, if it was implied that Katara/Aang actually discovered their feelings when they were much older. As it stands with Kataang, it’s so poorly written, due to unbalance between the characters. It ruined LOK for me as well. Although I’m a Zutara shipper, as I find the dynamic between the two more believable, that both of them would be interested in one another romantically, I agree that they didn’t have time to go there in season 3. Zutara would only work had the series had a book 4.  

Do we know the official ages of the characters in The 100? Like how old were they when they landed in season 1 and how old are they now at the beginning of season 6?

Beginning of season 1: Clarke: 17 Bellamy: 23 Octavia: 16 Monty: 15 Raven: 18 * Murphy: ?? Abby: 40 Kane: 42 Jaha: 48 * I’ve heard many people, perhaps even the writers (?) say Raven was 19 in season 1, but she could not have had her birthday yet. She had her 18th birthday in the flashback when Finn was arrested. Finn said he was 17, meaning he would have to have his 18th birthday before Raven could turn 19. Being that he was alive at the beginning of season 1 meant he was not 18 yet, aka Raven was 18. Of course, Raven could be nearing 19, in the same way that Clarke was nearing 18 and Octavia was nearing 17. Murphy is the big unknown. According to the script, Monty and Jasper were 15, but the actors are so much older, that never seemed to fit. As of current time, add about 7 years to all of their ages. I don’t count cryo sleep as aging. Except Monty who didn’t go into cryo sleep and lived to be older than any other character... 

i laughed so hard at the “i don’t know” and “something is wrong”

the twilight one is like abstract poetry

They all kind of read like weird little stories in and of themselves. HG is about an amnesia victim trying to recall the facts people have told her about herself, but which she doesn’t remember. Twilight is a love story about two mimes. And Harry Potter is the tragic story of boy whom absolutely nothing happens to.

I don’t know if these are in an order - most used to less used, but they could be reordered to sound even more like short stories. Hunger Games: My name is Katniss Everdeen. I am seventeen years old. My home is District 12. Something is wrong. I am not really surprised. I don’t know. I swallowed hard. I shake my head. He hesitates. Now I wish I had.

Twilight: I sighed. He shrugged. I shrugged. He chuckled. I laughed. He sighed. I frowned. I flinched. I took a deep breath. He didn’t answer. Harry Potter: Nothing happened. Harry looked around. Harry stared. Harry blinked. Harry said nothing. He waited. He stood up. He looked around. They looked at each other. Something he didn’t have last time.

Maybe the chip doesn’t contain /all/ of the previous commanders’ memories, just selected, important ones that would make her a better commander? That’s the only explanation that would make Madi having the chip and L’s memories not as disturbing.

My theory the flame contains all the memories... but that doesn’t mean that the host has access to all the memories. Lexa seemed to imply that she only has access to the commanders while dreaming and perhaps while meditating. Probably moments in need as well. And it’s always going on a subconscious level.

The flame is ultimately an AI, so I would assume that it has the intelligence to know what information to and not to release. Could a commander manipulate it and access more memories? Maybe... but that’s not the purpose of it. Nor is the point to overload the new commander with pointless memories like that time 75 years ago when a commander had a painful stomach ache... that would drive a person insane if they had to have flashes of every moment of multiple people over the years. So yes, it has to be only relevant memories/information/advice, etc.