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Time That Was So Hard To Find

@idontwanttospoiltheparty / idontwanttospoiltheparty.tumblr.com

Fiona. 25. Rubber Soul & Revolver devotee. Taylor Swift connoisseur. Beatles history fanatic.
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Anonymous asked:

I’ve been reading through you J+P analysis and love it! I hope you don’t mind but I wanted to add my two cents on the idea that Paul’s statements and mentions about John have potentially gotten over effusive to please the press and have fed into him over romanticising his relationship with John. I think this is somewhat true but I believe the reality is a lot more complicated and symbiotic.

 It's undeniable that Paul is on a bit of a bizarre post-mortem honeymoon with John at the minute due to nostalgia and the pro-lennon/mccartney stuff coming out. There’s no way that isn’t colouring his thinking and you’re right, there’s a discrepancy between Pauls more contradictory statements closer to John’s death vs now. People pleasing does have something to do with it, but it goes both ways. In that 1987(?) interview with John’s sister Julia, Paul says that he tried to downplay his relationship with John as people didn’t want to hear it, which partially explains his scrambled ‘oh we were the best of mates but you don’t get close to mates’ 1980s interviews. That interview is also important as Julia allows him to voice the belief that he skirted round in other interviews, which is that he was the person who knew John best. That’s a bold statement to make, and puts his tentative ‘one of the closest people to him. I can’t claim to be the closest, although it’s possible …  but I wouldn’t… I don’t need that credit.’ in a different light. Linda was also talking about the intensity and depth of their relationship early on (deeper than any of us will ever know, like the mirror image of each other etc) and pre-breakup Paul was casually describing he and John’s extreme closeness to a friend and their telepathy. So some of Paul's more effusive stuff he’s coming out with in interviews in the last decade or so is probably partly to do with the shift in narrative validating all of these feelings that he always had about John but felt unable to say/reckon with at the time of his death. It could be a bit like a pressure valve releasing slightly and all of it just flooding out.

Like the soulmate thing, it could be Paul rambling and getting to an extreme point but also he would never have been able to say that in the 80s/90s without backlash (I do find it telling that Paul’s PR guy also openly called John a soulmate to Paul, sure its good for brand image but also he would be more conscious than anyone of what Paul is okay with being put out there. Also the Howard Stern one where he reacted badly to the LOML question was likely due to the romantic connotations/Howard’s lack of boundaries). We also shouldn’t caricature-ise Paul’s people pleasing tendencies when it comes to his feelings and emotions. Sure he leaves harder stuff out and likes to focus on the positive, but he’s also Fort Knox possessive/private about his feelings and downplays them or shuts off (he’s done this recently like when he refused to tell Colbert about his dreams about John in detail). He fully owns to the press that the situation was complicated and his feelings aren’t straightforward. That he tends to downplay intensity as a general rule DESPITE greater intensity feeding better to the press should throw starker light on the strength of his feeling rather than doubt.

The more extreme statements also match what he’s saying in his personal life to friends and family (multiple people have said he constantly brings up the Beatles even when they themselves are asked not to and Julian mentioned that when he discusses John he talks about it as if it was a great love) and his personality. Paul was never getting over John because he loves profoundly and its not in his nature to let go. He’s the man who spent £70,000 in the 70s doing up a car that had fallen into a lake for ‘sentimental’ reasons, the man who bought the railings from Please Please Me to install in his studio and the man who, according to some reports, turned his whole house into a Linda shrine after she died. He’s also the man shattered by his mother’s death to the point he’s still agonised over laughing at her over something silly.  The press have exacerbated the situation and his uncertainty over their relationship to the point that he has to prove it to himself which is horrible, but in all likelihood he was always going to fill his houses and studios with John’s items and over 40 years later privately mull over if hugging John more would have helped, especially given how John died.

 Paul is not creating a narrative that didn't exist but zooming in on an aspect that was already there and choosing to focus on that. It’s become a bit of a feedback loop, ie Paul watches Mclennon videos on youtube then sends them to producers as inspiration as to how they should present their relationship in a documentary which again pushes a narrative onto fans which they embrace and so on. Ironically, I see the interviews and press as not just a perpetuator but also an outlet for Paul’s grief and trauma that was going to exist regardless of media involvement. Media is the thing that tore them apart and kept them apart initially but now its the medium where again Paul gets validation for his relationship with John as well as an outlet to speak about it in a way which he would normally be too repressed to do. Is his view on John different now than when he was alive? Sure! Is it romanticised? Probably? But likewise, was the petty bullshit that clouded his judgement during their worst period the true snapshot of their relationship either? It’s a whole messy question of whether there is ever one true version of something as shifting as a volatile relationship and if our relationship with the dead ever really ends/our views on the dead become more or less valid with paradoxical clarity/obscurity of distance.

Essentially what I’m trying to say is that Paul romanticises and creates narrative through omission, not exaggeration and that his more extreme statements are likely true to him. Love is a conversation and sometimes becomes an echo when the other person isn’t there yada yada yada.

Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out :)

I agree with a lot of this actually! Though I do also think that we shouldn't ignore the fact that Paul still regularly reveals his feelings towards John to be kind of mixed at times when he talks about the breakup specifically. But on the whole, your thoughts really align with mine and if I at times seem more cynical, it's probably because I find the specific way people talk about Paul on here can get very reductive.

You summarized the nuance of it very well here:

It’s a whole messy question of whether there is ever one true version of something as shifting as a volatile relationship and if our relationship with the dead ever really ends/our views on the dead become more or less valid with paradoxical clarity/obscurity of distance. Essentially what I’m trying to say is that Paul romanticises and creates narrative through omission, not exaggeration and that his more extreme statements are likely true to him. Love is a conversation and sometimes becomes an echo when the other person isn’t there yada yada yada.
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So didn't realise that people didn't know about the John Lennon 1980 'dear one' thing. As we're all here though I wanted to mention that the phrase 'my dear one' potentially has a bit of a story arc when it comes to John's relationship with Paul. For those familiar with British English, 'my dear one' sticks out as it's not a used term of endearment at all. So where does it come from? It could be a non-straightforward Victorian throwback, but more likely its hearkening to the use of the phrase in Eastern meditation to denote your nearest and dearest. Great, already off to a sweet start (and lines up with Yoko having Paul on the next-of-kin list with Julian and Mimi when John died).

It POTENTIALLY gets a bit more layered than that though once you add in the idea of hugging meditation. Contrary to what Paul says (sorry Paul, I do believe you on most things, just not this) despite being 'Northern men' TM the Beatles were a huggy bunch. John mentions it in the 1967 Hunter Davies interview:

''We used to be embarrassed about touching each other. We’d do an elaborate handshake just to hide the embarrassment… or we did mad dances. Then we got to hugging each other. Now we do the Buddhist bit… arms around. It’s just saying hello, that’s all.''

As pointed out in @thecoleopterawithana and @monkberries amazing posts, the Buddhist bit is hugging meditation which became popular in the 1960s. In hugging meditation, you

''have to make him or her very real in your arms, not just for the sake of appearances, patting him on the back to pretend you are there, but breathing consciously and hugging with all your body, spirit, and heart. Hugging meditation is a practice of mindfulness. “Breathing in, I know my dear one is in my arms, alive. Breathing out, she is so precious to me.”''

We know physical touch was important to John. One of the plusses of being with Yoko was being affectionate with his best friend, he tells Paul that touching is good whilst hugging him and in the Get Back sessions he delightedly asks Paul about a vivid dream where he was touching Paul (whether platonic or romantic this always read to me as a blatant subconscious desire for increased intimacy with Paul). The desire for intimacy is still present in the 'Real Life/Love' demo in 1977 where John muses about holding a mysterious has-a-baby-expecting-another-lives-on-a-farm someone in his arms as if it was only yesterday (another piece of media I still cannot believe we have on tape).

With John's evident desire for physical intimacy in mind and the focus on holding dear ones in hugging meditation, I don't think it's too far to think that John would associate this term of endearment with a certain level of both physical and emotional intimacy. Whether its a slightly bittersweet ironic recollection of those times together in the late 60s or a sincere statement of their current relationship, Paul as his dear one could be seen as continuation of John's suppressed, resentful but ultimately present desire for reignited intimacy with Paul on multiple levels (again romantic? Platonic? Choose-your-own-adventure there, I'm not in charge of you).

Or I could be talking shit. Who knows? It's just fun to think about!

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Anonymous asked:

I don't know how best to share it. But the strongest evidence is probably the paraphrased quote from the Norman book that you've referenced in the past. Where she suggests that John must have had feelings for Paul. (https://mclennonanthology.tumblr.com/post/77393769824/from-chance-remarks-he-had-made-she-gathered). Like, it's McLennon evidence. But it's also her speculation, not coming from John or Paul. Then there's the audio diaries. The part that gets quotes all the time is the part where she says Paul would be competition for her. But, in context, she doesn't really say it in a jealous way. She says it after a long monologue about how much she likes him and how she hopes he likes her, not for herself, but "because she belongs to John." She also talks about how she vibes with him way more than George and Ringo. (I couldn't find a good transcript but this one from a Yoko hate site ☹️is ok https://yuckfoko.livejournal.com/22933.html) Then there's the oft quoted bit of the Sheff interview where John is trying to talk about how normal his relationships with Yoko and Paul are and Yoko's the one suggesting that people might have found John and Paul abnormally close (https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/57260485982/august-1980-playboy-writer-david-sheff-questions)! And there's the bit of Sticky Fingers where Wenner claims that Yoko walks around telling everyone that John was gay and Hagen claims she also tried to convince Paul of this theory! (https://www.tumblr.com/amoralto/180893176242/the-wenners-moved-to-the-west-side-of-manhattan-in?source=share). Heck, she's one of the core purveyors of the "Paul was John's princess" idea!

That's all the super McLennon-specific evidence. But there's also tons of evidence that she was very fascinated by John's sexuality overall. There's the 1981(!) interview with Philip Norman where she claims she used to call John a "closet fag" to his face. (https://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/69790080940/i-used-to-say-to-him-i-think-youre-a-closet). She's possibly referencing John when she sings "You're thinking of Rock Hudson when we do it" in No No No. And another paraphrased quote from her that Norman used in John Lennon: A Life is the quote where she's claiming John said it would hurt her less if he slept with a man (and that he thought David Spinozza was hot) (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11785347/Inside-John-Lennon-Yoko-Onos-life-New-York-City-moves-Dakota-building.html). There's also the fact that Goldman makes endless references to Marnie Hair telling him Yoko gossiped about John and Brian a ton. Plus, she's the one confirming John was bi decades after his death in the 2015 interview. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/13/yoko-ono-i-still-fear-lennon-s-killer.html) I'm not saying her statements aren't evidence of John's actual queerness. I think they are. She was his wife, she knew him well. But they are also evidence that she spent (and has spent since he died) a lot of time thinking about his sexuality and seems to revel in the idea that he was queer as much as any tumblr shipper. If I want to get super speculative, I would even point to the fact that John seemed to play up his "Oscar Wilde side" when he was around her at times, and a plausible explanation is that he did it because she found it attractive.

Which makes sense when we note that Yoko has dated other queer men. Most notably Sam Havadtoy. And, in that 1968 audio diary, talks about her suspicion that certain gay men are "as attracted to her as they can be."

I don't know. I started thinking about this when you mentioned that the most concrete evidence we have for John's queerness and McLennon comes from Yoko. And then I started realizing how much of the stronger evidence comes from Yoko. And it really does start to seem like she's acting similarly to how many shippers do

Yup lol!!! I agree with this, for the most part. It's kind of crazy to me when I see people painting Yoko as having been two-dimensionally homophobic for shipping reasons when the truth appears to be so much stranger and more complicated than that.

Thank you so much for compiling this!!

It's genuinely bonkers how much of our theories trace back to her.

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Anonymous asked:

hot take tuesday: john wrote no reply about pete shotton.

i mean think about it:

This happened once before

When I came to your door

No reply

'Cause I know where you've been

And I saw you walk in

Your door

I nearly died

I nearly died

'Cause you walked hand in hand

With another man

In my place

pete shotton: “I remained so angry that I proceeded to shun John's company for the next fortnight or so, and instead took up with our classmate David Jones. One afternoon David emerged from my house to find his bicycle stolen.

After he headed forlornly home on foot, John materialized from behind some bushes with the missing bike in tow and a wide grin on his face. The sight struck me as so comical that instantly forgave him his transgressions.

Years later John confessed to having felt acutely jealous throughout that interlude: "I was scared shitless I'd lost you after our fight in science class, when you started playing with David Jones. I really thought I'd gone too far with you that time.”

it all makes sense. :)

I'm not gonna go so far as to say I think John definitely wrote No Reply with Pete Shotton in mind but tbh, this connection is super interesting to me. Like, subconsciously, could he have been drawing on that experience? 100%. It's also quite possible that this incident and John's reaction wasn't meaningfully isolated – but still, this has lowkey blown my mind.

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Anonymous asked:

Imho, John's problems with parenting go deeper than his issues with his family. I think it was a mix of a bad relationship with his own masculinity+assorted childhood traumas+internalized homophobia+bad experiences with fatherhood (struggles to have a relationship w/Julian bc he's too young/emotionally unequipped to deal with him, second wife has one/more dangerous abortions, kyoko etc..)+he was a famous person with all the problems that come with it. (1/2)

We also have to keep in mind that John had also a bit of a shitty character himself. And all of this without mentioning the drug addictions+untreated mental illness combo. when looking at John's life people keep blaming his crazy antics on his weird childhood but to me it was clearly mental issues. That these mental issues had their root in childhood it's obvious but there are people who have worse childhoods and do not develop them, John was genetically predisposed probably.

I mean, I don't disagree with any of this really, cause I don't feel you're really contradicting anything that was said. I don't really know enough about the nature vs nurture debate to say much more on the exact origins. It's true that not everyone who goes through experiences like that react as badly as John did.

I am curious how you think internalized homophobia played into his parenthood though. Could you elaborate on that?

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Re John and parenthood this YouTube therapist podcaster discusses how John likely struggled to enjoy parenthood because of his own trauma in his early years.

https://youtu.be/NN-k_eRhKr0?si=Lux-vPlM-wRU-XMk

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Hi yes I've listened to this already! I question some of his sources but I find his insight really interesting.

It was especially super helpful for me how he put BPD and NPD on a spectrum, with high attachment, low self-esteem on the borderline side and low attachment, high self-esteem on the narcissism side. It's really influenced how I think of mental health in a way that minimizes stigmatization of those traits.

And I know what part you mean. I believe he suggests that parenthood is a lot about remembering your own childhood and trying to recreate that for your kid, so if you had messy parental relations, you find yourself not knowing how to interact with your child.

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Anonymous asked:

is it weird to say in theory i kind of get why john & paul needed time apart in the 70s, realistically that’s a healthy thing to do with family, you grow and go your separate ways. but that their situation of growing up with immense fame where they were forced to live in a tight knit group and not allowing anyone to break into that cube just meant it was a zero sum game for them? either were super close or not close at all. obviously the lawsuits didn’t help but i think expectation of what their relationship needed to be was their downfall. and i don’t necessarily mean in the romantic sense either. the media had this idea of them. heck, even george and ringo had this idea of them to a degree. their wealth was tied to the other, so was their legacy. can we ever truly be normal about each other, when there’s all that stuff expectation. idk, but i would find that stifling, and tbh, at times even yearn for how easy it was to fall into it in the past…

It's not weird at all in my opinion! I actually agree with you a lot: I think it is normal(ized) to somewhat deprioritize friendships as you settle down with your family and I agree with your reasoning on why John and Paul may have leaned too far back. And I definitely agree that everyone around them had "an idea" of them which didn't help.

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Anonymous asked:

how much of john and paul's relationship would you say was "two deeply traumatized guys who became codependent on each other" vs genuine/healthy chemistry, respect, and love for one another?

This is a really good question, and something I've definitely thought about a lot! Obviously it's difficult to know precisely what's in a person's heart, but I do think that -- while they certainly loved each other very much -- the intensity of their relationship also had a lot to do with mutual pain and need.

I've talked about this a little bit before, but I think Paul's need for external validation may have dovetailed nicely with John's need to put a relationship/person on a pedestal. Being "chosen" by John could have theoretically provided Paul with a very powerful feeling of worthiness and that might partially explain the sheer intensity of their relationship. When the feelings between you represent something larger, believing in the importance and uniqueness of your relationship and leaning into the intensity/power of those feelings can become almost obsessive.

There's also this performance piece to being inside of that kind of bond, like you really, deeply need to perform the specialness of it to other people -- to self-soothe by witnessing other people witnessing how close and powerful and important your relationship is. Not just that it's the most important relationship in your life, but that it's the most important relationship, period. And I feel one of the most interesting things about Paul and John is just how many people they could perform the specialness of their relationship to, and how widespread and meaningful the understanding of that specialness became. To the point where it's basically a being unto itself.

(That sort of thing is also more effective when you're one of the most successful creative partnerships of all time).

But obviously they also genuinely liked and loved each other very much, and the degree to which their relationship was about mutual pain/soothing and the degree to which it was about sincere, healthy affection is basically impossible to say. And what's probably even harder to say is the degree to which the widespread understanding of the specialness of that relationship is about their mutual pain/soothing or their actual underlying love and affection.

(There's also some larger questions here about whether performative love is still a kind of love, which for some people I think it absolutely can be, and whether loving someone from a place of pain isn't still love as well.)

I think it's very tempting to say "John switched his hyperidealized connection to Yoko so easily, it must mean his bond with Paul was never about Paul as a person but just about using him as a prop in a narrative that brought them comfort." But those two things are not mutually exclusive, and I think sometimes the hardest thing about these kinds of intense, hyperidealized bonds is looking back on them after they explode and not assuming that if they weren't perfect, peerless, eternal, or whatever else you used to tell yourself, then they weren't anything at all.

That assessment is in some ways an extension of the obsessive specialness that you're trying to discard. It ignores the genuine affection that existed between them, which wasn't peerless or perfect or eternal, but it absolutely was real. It was of value. And in a way that's even harder to accept. But it does both of them a disservice to only reckon with what their relationship wasn't. Rather, I think it's equally difficult and equally important to reckon with what their relationship was.

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Anonymous asked:

my hot take is fandom REALLY overemphasizes emotional aspects of the breakup over business aspects. i get it! the drama is much more compelling. but money is a huge factor often sidelined or mentioned only via big bad klein. eg, it's usually totally absent from discussions of george and paul's relationship. and people rarely disclaim how many quotes/interviews happened in the context of an active legal dispute and should be viewed as at least partly attempts to manipulate the record.

Okay now this is tea!!!!!

It's kind of funny how Paul and John both said the business side really messed with their relationship and that's just kind of ignored – though personally I think it's partially cause most of us aren't business majors. Whenever I try to understand it deeply it makes my head spin and it's hard to gauge how much they understood themselves. I do think the emotional side exacerbated all of that, but it does seem more like it turned something bad into something terrible and erroded trust that would have helped them get through the business disputes without splitting over it…

but your last bit about manipulating the record for legal disputes……… gonna need to think about that more like… yeah, oh my god....?

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Anonymous asked:

Hot take is that the lack of physical proximity is what ended up ruining them. they literally grew up in each others pockets. you go from seeing each other every single day to all of a sudden one lives across the ocean, can’t even come to the states to visit because of prior convictions. like all four of them were never in the same room again, of course there would be bad blood. and definitely I think the paranoia comes into play there too. honestly, i feel like if they all still lived at least in the same cointry, it would have been a lot easier. But obviously, like any family, you grew up, you move away. again, I just think that them being all so tied together in the beginning to suddenly not seeing each other for months/even years physically is just what ruined them. they just didn’t know where to begin. I mean, John said as much in the hunter Davies bio after not seeing each other for a few months, they felt awkward. Pair that with the business stuff, the legal troubles, the media pitting them against each other. It’s one thing speaking over the phone. Completely separate thing when you’re in each others company. And I don’t mean once in a blue moon.

I agree with this a lot. I also think it already started happening when they quit touring? I think that experience really bonded them + made every band member feel equally important.

I also think the way they grew up in each other's pockets is sort of what allowed them to never fully learn how to communicate with each other effectively, because they'd been so in tune they didn't need to.

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Anonymous asked:

just came across your excellent post of quotes about the lennon-mccartney rivalry! there's sooooooo much to unpack there, but i was especially struck by your tags and hoping you could say more:

paul thrived with someone to compete against but it hurt john a lot and seemed to wear him down#i personally believe it's the number 1 cause of the breakdown of their relationship and the breakup itself#because it lead to john stacking his deck with allies like yoko and klein and looking for his own niches to succeed in without paul there

Well that's just my armchair psychoanalysis of John haha, I think he had some seriously debilitating (and mostly unwarranted) insecurities in general and particularly in regards to Paul. Their rivalry was always present but as long as their relationship was in a good place, they were working closely together and John could consider himself top dog, it was a positive motivating force for both of them and they could share the glory. But then Paul became increasingly independent (musically, artistically and socially), started churning out A-sides at a pace John struggled to match, and competing with Paul stopped being fun and was more of a source of unhappiness and stress. Then something happened (in India or around that time) that caused him to feel worthless and humiliated, while Paul was just fine, recently engaged, etc. If you're John Lennon and you've developed an inferiority complex along with a fear of being left behind or surpassed, what do you do? You strengthen your position with people like Yoko (a stalker with artistic cred who was willing to spend every moment with him) and Klein (a John guy who flattered him and made it clear he saw John as the boss), so you've got security and support. You free yourself from the pressure to compete with Paul in music by finding different ways to stand out, like politics and art. Then you're in a position where you don't need Paul and you don't need to beat him. You try to get some power back by provoking him with Yoko related antics and threatening a divorce you don't necessarily plan to follow through on - all he has to do to get you back is submit to your demands, then you have your top dog status back and you know he loves you enough to give you that. After all, when Ringo quit he got wooed back with flowers. When George quit, he got enough leverage to make changes to how they worked. But instead, Paul retreats to Scotland, inadvertently announces the breakup, then sues you. So you publicly rage about it and are deeply hurt for the rest of your life, even thought he technically just gave you what you asked for. Few journalists or authors bother to question this and just accept that you were too good for the Beatles and were bored by them and that's why the group broke up. The end.

Anyway hope that all made sense <3

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ohblahdo
Anonymous asked:

can you please elaborate on your reblog from idontwanttospoiktheparty’s post about this all looking different from John's POV. what do you mean by that?

Well, for instance, I think of John saying that Paul thought the others needed him to drag them into the studio and pointing out that, after they split up, they all made albums just fine without him. So it's likely that from John's POV, some of Paul's efforts to be the responsible one looked like unnecessary meddling or bossiness.

Also, I feel like we can all tend to get stuck in the patterns of our relationships in ways that are sometimes inhibiting. If one of you is The Good One and the other is The Fuck Up, those can become not just stereotypes but roles you internalize and both come to resent. If John hadn't had anyone around to clean up his messes, would he have crashed and burned and gone nowhere in life? Or would he have taken on more responsibility and learned to stop making messes in the first place?

It's tricky, because in John, you have a mix of someone who was talented and capable, and someone who struggled with real insecurities and mental health problems, and someone who could also just be impulsive or rude, and in Paul, you have someone who was caring and responsible and wanted to support his friend, and someone who was not always great at expressing that, and someone who is also just a bit of a know-it-all. And I just try to keep all of those facets of them in mind when I think about their dynamic.

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Anonymous asked:

ok I need you to discuss this John is My Son thing because like I also feel that Sometimes I Felt Like His Priest is also really underdischssed!

okay here we go!!!

The quote you're referring to is from the Foreword of The Lyrics. I grabbed some more of it because it's all quite interesting to me.

This was about the same time that I met John Lennon, and it’s pretty clear now that we were a huge influence on each other. Readers might detect duelling emotions in my recollections of John; that’s because my relationship with him was very mixed. Sometimes it was filled with great love and admiration, but other times not, especially around the time The Beatles were breaking up. In the beginning, though, the relationship was a young Liverpool guy looking up to another guy a year and a half older. It was hard not to admire John’s wit and wisdom. But as I came to see him as a person and a human being, there were, of course, arguments, though never anything violent. There’s even a movie out there in which John’s character punches my character, but the truth is that he never punched me. As with many friendships, there were disputes and there were arguments, but not many. Sometimes, though, I certainly thought John was being a complete idiot. Even though I was younger, I would try to explain to him why he was being stupid and why something he’d done was so unlike him. I remember him saying things to me like, ‘You know, Paul, I worry about how people are gonna remember me when I die.’ Thoughts like that shocked me, and I’d reply, ‘Hold on; just hold it right there. People are going to think you were great, and you’ve already done enough work to demonstrate that.’ I often felt like I was his priest and would have to say, ‘My son, you’re great. Just don’t worry about that.’

It's like… there's so much going on here, you know? John is almost paradoxical to Paul: the source of one of the biggest hurts of his life and also one of his great bringers of joy; he's forever petrified as a teenager in Paul's mind and also on some level remains his fairground hero whose shadow Paul cannot escape; a traitor and yet don't you dare depict him being violent towards me; wise and simultaneously stupid.

At its root, I think many of these contradictions exist because Paul is on some level aware that a lot of the pain John dealt him was at least in part due to something John could not help (i.e. mental illness). He can't bring himself to blame John entirely, in a similar way a lot of us fans wrestle with John's behaviour that we know came from a place of great anguish. This has contributed to Paul infantilizing the memory of John; he has an instinct to look after John, and it's exacerbated by the fact that he has aged whilst his conception of John has not (you can see this in the way Paul constantly circles back to the early days of their friendship), which is in great contrast to Paul's memory of, say, Brian:

"I find that one of the interesting aspects of ageing: Brian Epstein never got beyond thirty-two, but I think of him as an older guy even though I’m already twenty years older than he ever got to be." – Many Years From Now.

But there's another element to this… A lot of people on here speculate about why Paul "can't get over John". My answer:

1) John's death was uniquely traumatic to John's loved ones in a way we tend to gloss over.

2) We are not letting Paul get over it! Paul has been asked about John in interview after interview for four decades and his image directly suffered due to the lionization of John post-1980 as well as the way he (Paul) was judged for not grieving correctly. Perhaps he's started bringing John up a lot in interviews in part because he feels he has to, lest he be deemed callous and cold again. (and perhaps he is seeking to nip the Lennon Question in the bud before the questions become, ahem, horribly insensitive) That's not to say Paul isn't weird about John – I think he is! But I think the way he's been made to both carry John's legacy and accept criticism used to build John up and bury his own unresolved anger at John and grieve over a senseless murder publicly and defend John now that his image is being torn down… it accounts for a huge chunk of this weirdness, IMO. Again, I want to reiterate: I think these are generally Paul's genuine feelings and thoughts (and I certainly don't want to imply that all of this only started post-1980... but perhaps there's a reason Paul seemed more measured throughout the '70s) but I think it's naive to act like society didn't help shape the way Paul talks about John and sees him. When you live as publicly as he does and your childhood friendship is one of the most talked about relationships in music history, you are bound to be affected by the general reception.

I also think Paul is often doing reputation damage control. It is very important to him that he and John are remembered first and foremost as friends (hence the offense he takes in the depiction of John punching him in Nowhere Boy) and it seems like, since at least Goldman, he's been trying to emphasize John's softer, more lovable traits. I think this, mixed with the infantilization mentioned above, is where you get stuff like the clip of Paul calling John a little baby or a lovely broth of a boy.

It's all so damn complicated you know? And so fascinating.

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ohblahdo

So I agree with all of this, but I do also think there might be more to unpack with regard to the "John was like my son" stuff. I actually think that was a significant facet of their relationship: how many stories are there about John offending someone or fighting someone or causing an incident or saying something outrageous to the press, and Paul coming in and apologizing, playing peacemaker, cleaning up messes, etc? John himself commented on it in interviews in the 70s - he attributed that behavior to both Brian and Paul, but managing their image was Brian's job in a way that it wasn't specifically Paul's. And we can say that it was about the band and wanting them to be successful, but I think it went beyond that as well, and continued after they were successful and, according to Glyn Johns, even continued after they broke up, when John still expected Paul to do his apologizing for him.

And then on the personal level, you've got Paul talking about reassuring John in regard to his insecurities, and trying to talk John out of doing ill-advised things, protecting him from people who might be mean to him (see: the head of EMI), reminding him to pay his bills and taxes, and so on. I think of the outtakes from Julia where Paul is there offering support - is there any equivalent of John doing that for Paul?

Overall, it does seem like there was a pattern of caretaking/protective/quasi-parental behavior from Paul towards John that, as far as I know, is distinct from the way he treated George or Ringo. And if you're inclined to see parallels or pipelines from Jim to John, I think this is one of them: according to Angie, Jim had gambling losses that were bad enough that Paul had to buy their house back, and some of the aunts talked about Jim being fragile in the wake of Mary's death. If you learn at a young age that your parents need you to help look after them and make excuses for them, perhaps you're more likely to accept that dynamic in other relationships as well. What I wonder about is whether Paul ever got sick of it, as much as he loved John. Most people don't want to be their brother's keeper (or their best friend's parent/priest/apologist) forever, and it wouldn't be unusual for some tension to arise when you get to the point in life when you're thinking of getting married and having kids, and you don't want to be responsible for telling your buddy to pay his taxes or not to get holes drilled in his head or not to go off and start a commune on an island under a military dictatorship. Perhaps it tells us something about his mindset that he ended his 'McCartney' Q&A in 1970 with "My only plan is to grow up."

(I do think it's quite possible that this all looked different from John's POV, but this post is too long already.)

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shimmyalong

I've seen a fair few people interpret John's "he's an old man he can't hit you" comment as meaning he was aware of the physical abuse. That's never been my interpretation.

A) I don't think he would have made that comment in those circumstances if he knew. To me it's more like the kind of accidentally insensitive comment you make when you don't know the full picture

B) There are no circumstances under which I can imagine Paul ever volunteering the information to John of all people.

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I’m also a "Paul is not meaningfully attracted to men" person. He just reads so so straight to me (although I do think his relationship to other men in general is odd!). What did Paul think his relationship with John was exactly? What a great question, and I’ll give you my feelings which is I definitely DONT think Paul ever thought about it while they were together. I truly believe P+J were in an emotional relationship (I.e. they were basically on the dating level but without the romantic aspect) because Paul was doing so much emotional managing of John and John gave Paul emotional support. They both put a ton of unqualified emotional labor in to an each other that’s usually reserved for a romantic relationship (for men). (But I also don’t think either of them were super aware of that while it was happening. I think John knew there was an exchange there but didn’t really understand it till later). I think in the 80s directly after John died Paul went on a journey to figure out what happened in their relationship and I think he found things out that really shook him. I think he maybe realized there was a romantic element to their relationship (especially from johns pov) but then I also think he kinda rejected it after realizing it brought up so much guilt within him. I think he has slowly realized over time John wasn’t such a great partner to him but then he hates thinking about that so he vacillates wildly between love and anger and grief. I think he went through a period in the 80s were he genuinely thought “maybe I should’ve just … “ but can’t quite let himself think about it. I think he thinks I could’ve loved him enough to make him stay I wish I had but it was too scary he wanted too much from me. I think now as an old man he thinks I love him that much now it doesn’t scare me anymore I could’ve hugged him and kissed him easily I wish I hadn’t been so uptight (and I don’t mean that romantically). I think he romanticizes the times they laid in bed together because there was an intimacy there he deeply misses. I think John was the first love of his life and I think he’s realized it now (like now now) but it took him 20/30 years post him dying to kinda realize that. Again I don’t mean romantically I think in the sense of I put as much emotional labor in to John as I did in to Linda (although obviously much more with Linda). While they were in their relationship I think Paul only thought of it as like.. natural?? This is just how we naturally are. We legally own a piece of each other and so it’s natural I take this much interest and care. I think Jane forced him to question his relationship with John many times and mostly he dodged it but there definitely came a time where it scared him that people could think of them as queer which is kinda like step one in to their fractured relationship. Now I think he looks back on it like so what? So what if I loved him and he loved me (once again this is like a recent thing). I don’t think it was sexual for Paul but was it sexual for John? I think johns sense of sex was wildly distorted so any deep feeling was entangled with sex and certainly intimacy was entangled with sex (that’s probably also an era thing so Paul falls in to that as well) so I think John in particular struggled with sexual desire and intimacy desire being intermixed. Anyway that’s my analysis

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(Cont.)

I know I said SO MUCH in that last ask sorry but also I just thought what about Paul and Sex? And I have to say I do think Paul’s relationship with John wildly effected his sexuality and sense of sex especially since they met so young I think John had a huge impact on how Paul relates to sex so to say it’s completely detached from their relationship? Err I can’t quite dismiss it! But I think it mostly comes across in Paul’s relationships with women than in with John. I just look at the dynamics Between Paul and Francie and Jane and Heather in particular and I think there’s echoes of John here. Idk what that means for Paul but!! Sex definitely plays a part but I don’t see it as Sex and Romance combined it’s definitely different quadrants.

Wow! What an insightful ask to wake up to!

I find myself agreeing with a lot of it, though I'm slightly unclear what you mean by emotional labour. I do see Paul as taking on somewhat of a role of John's carer, though more in an almost parental way, but while I think John loved Paul a lot I'm not sure what labour he was doing? He does seem to have played a role in calming Paul's nerves, as that one scene in Get Back shows, but it's hard for me to gauge how often stuff like that occurred.

Anyways! Here's stuff I really really like/want to emphasize from your take: (under the cut to not clog everyone's dash):

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mythserene

Call him “Epstein” – How far is Mark Lewisohn willing to go to force a false narrative?

 “I don’t care what you think of Klein, call Klein something else. Call him ‘Epstein’ for now, and just consider the fact that three of us chose ‘Epstein.’”

John Lennon to Jann Wenner, Rolling Stone, May 14, 1970 

I keep asking “Why do you want me to believe John —(or George or Paul or or or)—said this?” And I keep asking because that is the question that keeps coming out of my mind, my mouth, and my keyboard.

It's the obvious question.

When you’re going to so much trouble to quote shop and quote twist, there's a purpose beyond the pure joy of torturing words. You are trying to prove a point and there’s no real quote to support your position, so instead of changing your position, you act like Beatles’ words are appetizers in a buffet.

THREE OF US CHOSE EPSTEIN.

This premeditated and purposeful OBSCENITY has been sitting there for ten years. Two ladies with a podcast found it.

However, John remembered Paul’s attitude to Brian being very different. John was always emphatic that Paul didn’t want Brian as the Beatles’ manager and presented obstacles to destabilize him, to make his job difficult … like turning up late for meetings. “Three of us chose Epstein. Paul used to sulk and God knows what … [Paul] wasn’t that keen [on Brian]—he’s more conservative, the way he approaches things. He even says that: it’s nothing he denies.”(72)

I will never—NEVER— get over this one. There may be more shocking things to come, but it was this revelation that made me look at every one of Mark Lewisohn’s “author interviews” differently.

This is when I realized that there is nothing I would put past him.

Listening to that part of Episode 7 is so funny to me now. Daphne and Phoebe kept trying to stick to the outline and ask “Does this quote back up Lewisohn’s thesis?” but it was very difficult because they were in such total disbelief at Mark Lewisohn’s deception. (My label, although it’s a pretty inarguable one.) It is genuinely almost unbelievably dishonest. AKOM had a whole show filled with whoppers to get through, and they kept trying, but it took them awhile to move on because air-quotes-Epstein was like a magnet that kept pulling them back. So yesterday, to get out of editing some of my own mess, I put together a few of the times that the shock sucked them back in.

“I find that kind of shocking, really.” Tiny compilation of Phoebe and Daphne in disbelief over Mark Lewisohn’s purposeful misrepresentation of a quote of John Lennon talking about Allen Klein to attempt to show that John thought Paul was trying to thwart Brian Epstein. (Episode 7)

And most of us strongly suspect where Mark Lewisohn is going with this. He wants to rehabilitate Allen Klein because John can literally never be wrong—or perhaps an even stronger motive—he wants Paul to be very, very wrong. But whatever his motives, we can see what he’s doing. And we don’t have to just suspect, because he has already told us that he is going to use some of his most unforgivable lies to shape that narrative.

And there’s only one reason to do that: because there are no real quotes to back up the narrative he wants to push.

It tells us, in no uncertain terms, that the narrative he wants to push is quite literally unsupportable.

To make it work, Lewisohn has to lie about what John Lennon actually said.

*This post was first going to be about both the “quotes” that Mark Lewisohn references here, but in the end I couldn’t not give “call him ‘Epstein'” its own post. Which means I have actually shortened a post. (Please clap.)

Every ‘quote’ in the “spanner in the works” section is bullshit. Every. Single. One. I’m not going to the thesaurus for a fancier word. They are bullshit. Complete and utter, doctored, twisted, bullshit. The man is lying. And what really chaps my ass is that he is flat out telling us that he is going to use those same lies to push his bullshit narrative of the breakup. Like damn, that takes a lot of nerve.

Here is Mark Lewisohn telling us, straight out, that it’s these same bullshit quotes that he plans on using again to fool us. And he should be a laughingstock when he does. Not in some quarters. In all.

He must think we are such dupes. Although he’s gotten away with it so far, so up until now he hasn’t been wrong.

(There’s a bit more to this part of the Q & A and it’s all bad, but for this post I decided to leave it at Mark Lewisohn telling us that he is going to use the exact same sources he used for the “spanner” section to push this lie in the upcoming books.)

Fool me twice…

Would John and George have seen the parallel between Epstein and Klein in 1969?  LEWISOHN: ❝Yes. I’m sure the answer to that is yes, because John mentioned it in interviews, probably in Wenner’s, maybe the one with McCabe and Sconfeld— Schonfeld. Yes. (📍Nothing is Real)

Transcript:

Q. In Hornsey Road you were talking about the three-to-one Allen Klein split, and I was saying to you that it seemed to me that it paralleled what is mentioned in Tune In about, uh, the appointment of Brian Epstein. That- that Paul was sort of holding back or was not keen to move forward with Brian Epstein. And I suppose my question was, is there a direct parallel there? And would, in 1969, John and George in particular have been conscious of that parallel?
LEWISOHN: Yes. I’m sure the answer to that is yes, because John mentioned it in interviews, probably in Wenner’s, maybe the one with McCabe and Sconfeld– Schonfeld. Yes. John recognized that.

Nothing is Real Podcast • October 16, 2019, Episode 15 • Mark Lewisohn, Part II

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And just remember that this is only one half of a hellacious Frankenquote.

(But I kept it short. 🎊 )

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