Anonymous asked:

Also, Daenaera is Vaemond’s granddaughter and her father Daeron was one of the “silent five,” as was her uncle Daemion. Daenaera marrying Daemon and Rhaenyra’s son is one pretty serious reconciliation.

What anon means by "silent five" are 5 of Vaemond's cousins cousins/Corlys' nephews who sailed to the Red Keep after Vaemond's execution to protest it to Viserys. Viserys had their tongues cut off bc much earlier, he already made the decree that no one can decry Rhaenyra's 3 Velaryon sons as "bastards"--as these Velaryons did--or they'd have their tongues cut out ("A Question of Succession"):

Malentine, Rhogar, and 3 other unnamed sons by an unnamed brother of Corlys.

Answering the asks, kinda but not really. Alyn of hull/the legitimized and successful Alyn Velaryon stood to gain more than these cousins ever did from Daenaera marrying Aegon, even thought they were the ones to protest Vaemond's death.

Daenaera's parents were dead (so Daeron Velaryon, her dad, can do not much for these tongueless cousins esp when he already "reconciled" with Alyn) and she was under first just Alyn's care for some months, then both his and Baela's, not theirs for some more months even if they were the ones who were taking care of Daenaera before Alyn fought them off, killed Malentine and made Rohogar become one of the Night's Watch ("War and Peace and Cattle Shows"):

They would remain tongueless until their deaths with nothing to show for it, and we don't know if Vaemond himself would have approved or liked the fact his own son made nice with a former bastard bc it is the show that made Vaemond be so...persistent more about the principles of anti-bastardry and male privilege over strategic power-grasping behind such principles.

#asoiaf asks to me #daenaera velaryon #the velaryons #vaemond velaryon #rhogar velaryon #malentine velaryon #the silent five #book vs tv comparisons #asoiaf #hotd #fire and blood #hotd writing

horizon-verizon

Anonymous asked:

TG LOVEEEEE using Vaemond as a gotcha against Rhaenyra and claim to support him but the gag is that his granddaughter will marry Rhaenyra’s son, becomes queen, her sons (so Vaemond’s great grandsons) became kings, her children are remembered in Westeros meanwhile the last living legitimate member of Aegon II’s line is murdered by her father’s supporter.

TG shoud be happy and support Daenaera as queen, at last, their favorite boy Vaemond was vindicated 😘

This is a great comeback, anon. Watch them still say that "that Vaemond has a line of kings from him doesn't change the fact that he was unjustly killed!"

Ok Mary, now you measure the worth of success by the person's ability to live out their lives as leaders? So Aegon didn't win anything, since he died by his own men's poisoning? Or now you can see how Rhaenyra's death was a sort of tragedy, since she couldn't rule as queen? I mean...if lineage doesn't matter at all when determining how "good" a person in this conflict or setting may have had?

Okay then, why are you so insistent about Jaehaera being the one to propagate the Targaryen line? Or Aemond?!

I'd also like to remind people of Tyland Lannister, who at point advocated for Aegon to kill Aegon the younger to end the threat from Rhaenyra's remaining supporters, yet still went on to sincerely serve Aegon III before he succumbed to the winter illlness at KL.

btw, Vaemond is Daenaera's father through a man called Daeron.

#vaemond velaryon #asoiaf asks to me #green stans #vaemond's death #driftmark claim #hotd fandom #fandom critical

horizon-verizon reblogged

bogusavathepit

House of the Dragon: Episode 8 “They Were Supposed to Be Adults?! Was Anyone Even a Person?”

CW: SA

Ryan Condal, one of the showrunners, mentions in the post-episode interview on HBO that this episode was supposed to showcase Rhaenyra and Alicent’s children as grown adults now….

But this is basically why I think this is the bottom-ranked, dullest episode so far for me:

There is little nuance or complexity to our characters if it doesn’t serve Viserys’ Jesus-savior character development. Where is more of the political backstabbing aside from the Driftmark claim?

Keep reading

#hotd critical #hotd comment #hotd episode 8 #asoiaf #hotd #house of the dragon #vaemond velaryon #viserys i #hotd writing #viserys i's characterization #hotd characterization

horizon-verizon

Anonymous asked:

It’s hilarious to see Green stans stanning and defending Vaemond but wanting to erase his granddaughter, Daenaera, to prop up a white character, Jaehaera. Vaemond got his posthumous revenge, his granddaughter became queen and his great-grandsons became kings.

Daenaera in HOTD is now a black girl. Her children with Aegon III are black people. Deal with it. Notice the way that Team “Targaryens and their fans are white supremacists” are eager to stan white ships and ships that erase or replace black female characters.

And since Green stans believe that HOTD is the true version of F&B, I consider that the Velaryons in F&B are black people (including the conqueror trio).

The greens stans must hate you, anon. Yes, with the Velaryons-of-blood being all black, a lot of the dislike of Daenaera becoming Aegon's wife and their kids thereby becoming mixed-race is a troubling concept to those greenies. Kinda sad and funny, since Vaemond probably would have liked the idea of his grandkids being kings, but alas. Those greenies really only look to these black characters and use them to prop up their white favs.

#asoiaf asks to me #asoiaf #hotd #hotd characterization #daenaera velaryon #vaemond velaryon #fandom critical #hotd fandom

horizon-verizon

Anonymous asked:

Hi! I'm the anon who asked about Corlys and the power he would have over his grandchildren to make decisions. First of all, ty for the kind and exhaustive response. 2. I must say that English is not my first language and I apologize for using wrong pupil and Ward. You taught me a lot about the system though. 3. I find it fascinating how much power Rhaenyra could wield unlike other women. As you point out, she was not subordinate to Laenor 4. So the whole Rhaenys subplot was unnecessary drama?

Hello! (Anon is talking about this post HERE.)

Your English was perfect, English people themselves will get words that have similar associations confused all the time. It's part of why I wanted to point out the difference. Don't worry about it, no need to apologize.

Rhaenyra can use her rank and royal/heir status over others except her own father and (sometimes and some things) the Queen Consort but with her being female she has to tread through some expectations and hard limitations on her behavior or just risk ignoring them altogether. Because of her womanhood, she's still expected to be "faithful" or retain some measure of Andal "womanhood" or conform even into her becoming a monarch to some for them to "respect" her because womanhood itself is so wrapped up in that value that it would/does stretch into that elevation of status. Funny enough, this thing comes into conflict with how monarchs are expected to not be subservient to anyone, and wives are typically encouraged/taught to be obedient in action to their husband's/male relatives'/male superiors' directions. Plus, princesses are still beholden to that value as well. More likely to get away with it (look up Elizabeth I). She would likely have always be expected to ride this fin(er) edge of displaying male-coded "strength" while being an example of female morality to other women due to her position, and it's weird bc I can't really see book!Rhaenyra trying to mold herself towards that self-contradictory ideal, but show!Rhaenyra might (which I despise bc it's so male-gaze-coded, this change). It is fascinating.

Finally, Rhaenys. By the subplot, I think you mean her speaking to Vaemond about helping him be the next heir/lord of Driftmark, thus not only passing over Rhaenyra's children and taking Baela as her/Driftmark's ward but also allowing Vaemond to be the one to stop her own granddaughter from inheriting the Driftmark seat even though she herself asked Corlys to make Baela his heir? And then Rhaenys is considering helping Vaemond because she can't "hold down the fort" at the time it's needed the most or because she thinks her granddaughters would be safer if she just gave into Vaemond's demands? Why?!

Some people liked this storyline for the conversation she has with Vaemond and for the tension of title and family ties between them (backjustforberena). I myself couldn't get past the weirdness of Baela being there and Rhaenys not supporting Rhaenyra AND Rhaenys being so...cautious while trying to act in what she thinks is her husband's needs while also helping him do things that she knows wouldn't work for them or their kids and grandkids. It is neither a fleshed-out character nor the character as I know her, far too reserved to the wrong persons at the wrong times.

Anyway, yeah, unnecessary, self-contradictory, not very well-written, nor a sensical drama.

#asoiaf asks to me #corlys velaryon #rhaenys targaryen #rhaenys targaryen's characterization (meleys' rider)#hotd writing #hotd critical #hotd #hotd characterization #rhaenyra's characterization #vaemond velaryon #rhaenys targaryen (aemon's daughter)

horizon-verizon

Anonymous asked:

It’s highly relevant, notable, and symbolic that after pronouncing justice on the Velaryons who had “slandered” his daughter Rhaenyra’s sons as “Strong bastards”, Viserys stumbled while descending the throne’s towering steps, and though he caught himself, he cut his hand to the bone on a jagged blade. His hand became infected and two fingers had to be amputated, and he was never again truly healthy, nor did he ever sit the throne again.

This is the quote anon refers to, which happens after Viserys orders the protesting and seat-seeking relatives of Vaemond after his death ("A Question of Succession"):

My Answer to the Ask:

I also think that it's highly relevant how the rest of the Velaryons related to Vaemond who tried to claim the Driftmark seat and oust Alyn Velaryon all died (except one) in their attempts ("The Hooded Hand"):

It is interesting how Vaemond tries to take the Driftmark seat for himself by trying to claim Rhaenyra's sons were bastards ("A Question of Succession"):

To use a claim of their illegitimacy to "fight back" against both Viserys' and Corlys' decisions as lords of their houses (that these boys would inherit the specific positions, Jacaerys-the throne, and Lucerys-Driftmark)....and then the Driftmark goes to the legitimized bastard son of Corlys Velaryon, his uncle, anyway! Alyn, who would go on to perform more feats through voyages continuing Corlys' legacy and bringing that sweet-sweet glory and prestige to the house that aristocrats desire almost above all else. Usually. Wasn't Vaemond or any of his sons or nephews--it was the bastard child of his older brother.....funny.

Not only that, like the greens/Alicent, he ended up dead and most of his family dead.

So much for the implication of Viserys' wrong decision concerning the Driftmark claim (not allowing it to go to Vaemond or any of his claiming relatives) and refusing to punish Rhaenyra. And so much for the absolutism of ASoIaF symbolism and Westerosi superstition further disseminated/reaffirmed by already misogynist maesters.

EDIT (9/15/23)

Not only is this chair made out of literal still-sharp-and-pointed-swords (thereby someone/anyone is going to cut themselves regardless of their character), if it supposedly slices unworthy rulers OR slices a ruler when they are making the wrong--either life-saving, strategic, or moral--decision, why are there no reports of Aegon IV getting slashed? Ever?! Or after Aegon V mentally determines to take the eggs to Summerhall or try at all to restore the dragons using unsafe methods?

#asoiaf asks to me #the velaryons #alyn velaryon #asoiaf symbolism #daeron velaryon #driftmark claim #vaemond velaryon #daemion velaryon #malentine velaryon #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #fire and blood

horizon-verizon

That same year [126 A.C.], across Blackwater Bay, the Sea Snake was stricken by a sudden fever. As he took his bed, the issue arose as to who should succeed him as Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark should sickness claim him. With both his trueborn children dead, by law his lands and titles should pass to his eldest grandson, Jacaerys…but since Jace would presumably ascend the Iron Throne after his mother, Princess Rhaenyra urged her good father to name instead her second son Lucerys. Lord Corlys had half a dozen nephews, however, and the eldest of them, Ser Vaemond Velaryon, protested that the inheritance by rights should pass to him…on the grounds that Rhaenyra’s sons were bastards sired by Harwin Strong. The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon, Syrax. Even this did not end the matter, however. Ser Vaemond’s younger cousins fled to King’s Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps of the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in stony silence, then ordered for their tongues removed, every one. ‘I will hear no more of these lies.’

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 386

#a question of succession #fire and blood quotes #asoiaf quotes #vaemond velaryon #rhaenyra targaryen #viserys i #corlys velaryon #the velaryons #driftmark claim #dance of the dragons #dying of the dragons #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #Fire and Blood #vaemond's death

horizon-verizon reblogged

branwendaughterofllyr

I’m finally reading the Accursed Kings series by Maurice Druon, I had not realized it covered the case of Marguerite and Blanche of Burgundy and ummm….. really has forcibly put HoTD back into historical perspective for me.

For those not familiar with it, the daughters-in-law of King Philip the Fair of France, Marguerite (married to the eldest son Louis) and Blanche (married to the youngest son Charles) were both caught having an affair with a pair of brothers. Needless to say, it does not end well for any of the parties involved. The men were flayed, hanged, and beheaded, and the two princesses were imprisoned, with Marguerite being murdered a year later so that her husband could remarry. And her daughter, Jeanne, who would have been the heiress of France, may or may not be a bastard, so is forcibly removed from the line of succession by the invention of Salic law, which dictates that the crown can only pass to men through the male line. (Since Louis who may or may not have been her father died without any male heirs) Unsurprisingly, this causes problems! And partly sparks (among other things) the Hundred Years War between France and England.

Having bastards is serious business with serious consequences for married women. And YES, it is absolutely unfair and ridiculous that men can do it with far fewer consequences, but the show downplayed what those consequences can be. In GoT, the whole starting point is that Cersei has illegitimate children and passed them off as her husbands, and people are killed to keep that secret. Not to mention the humiliating punishment that she has to endure, and she was only being punished for having sex as a widow!!!

My point is that Rhaenyra having bastard children is kinda downplayed in the show, and that this IS a big deal both historically and in universe was glossed over.

rhaenyragendereuphoria

You conveniently left out the part where it was ISABELLE, Philippe Le Bel's daughter, who tattled on her sisters-in-laws and accused them of adultery, and that she did it out of spite and envy because they mocked her having a gay husband who wasn't interested in her. Which makes the whole thing more ironic when Isabelle herself takes a lover and deposes her own husband to rule during her son's minority.

Per the Salic law, which you mention, Marguerite and Blanche were only queen consorts. Rhaenyra was going to be queen regnant. It's not the same.

The scandal of the Tour de Nesle was also some kind of hypocritical exception. The reason it happened was court schemings and frail alliances/power. It's not really about adultery or illegitimate children: that's the excuse. It's about power.

The reason they are seemingly downplaying it in the show is that it was never such a big deal in the book. It was for the Greens. That's it. The other lords didn't care because her adultery was not confirmed the way the show did, it was not "obvious", and there was plausible deniability that her children might have inherited Rhaenys' dark hair. But the show left that out because it had to dumb everything down and insult the audience's intelligence.

duxbelisarius

Of course the King of France that fought wars with his vassals and the Flemish to acrew centralized power for himself, who expelled France’s Jews and slaughtered the Templars to escape debt and expropriate their property for himself, and weakened the Church through the Babylonian Captivity in a bid to further stengthenm his centralized power over the Church, would TOTALLY just threaten his own succession and the favourable marriage alliances of his sons over gossip from his daughter who was married to an enemy of France. Totally!

“The reason they are seemingly downplaying it in the show is that it was never such a big deal in the book.”

Vaemond Velaryon and the Silent Five would beg to differ.

horizon-verizon

First, The argument is that the reveal of infidelity is what is important, not the infidelity and bastardry themselves. Because the feudal/medieval patriarchal system in place makes a woman's infidelity a problem when it innately is not except in a consensually monogamous relationship. Which is not exactly what medieval marriages were. And wasn't Rhaenyra's either....since you know, Laenor was gay and couldn't ever impregnate her despite the fact he tried on the show.

Have you also read the posts @rhaenyragendereuphoria gave in their reblog? They all go into this argument, which you didn't touch or try to disprove.

You seemed to totally skip over the part where rhaenyragendereuphoria points out how Phillpe le Bel's daughter Isabelle purposefully exposed the women for her own benefit, going later on to do the same things. Alicent doesn't sleep around or have a lover, but she also accuses to gain.

That was the point.

Second, Vaemond Velaryon didn't necessarily care about bastardry but about power when you break it down. Did he talk all that talk about bastards and pure blood and all that because he thought these things important and defining? Yes. And why did he protest? Because he wanted to inherit. That motivation was enough for him to openly try to get others to see Rhaenyra's children as bastards. Why? Because if he is successful, then he gets to get the Driftmark seat and all its powers, privileges, lands, etc. It wasn't about keeping his house safe so much as he thought he should gain control and disagrees with Corlys, who I have to remind you, on the show was fine with leaving Driftmark to Lucerys even though the show also tries to make it clear that everyin, including Corlys, knew those boys were not Laenor's biological kids. The show is very clear on that. Corlys didn't want Vaemond to inherit and made specific movements to not have him inherit.

So Vaemond, while declaring that he was trying to keep bloodlines "pure" -- which is already a cultural, fake, patriarchal concept -- was simultaneously going against the wishes of the House Head. And for what? Power.

Bastardry and the focus on female chastity instead of male chastity and fidelity both come from the perceived disadvantage of a noble man (who was left with the decision-making power and were customarily the ones to inherit total power and authority) not being assured that the child produced comes from the man since cis men do not birth. Women do.

This is why you see so many restrictions on women's movements, dress, actions, and sexuality form an early age in these societies -- to present images of not being "ruined", or touched by a man that their parents/authorities have not assigned to this girl/woman. I write to an anon HERE about the Anstey Case of the c.1160s HERE. And I talk about why Viserys chooses to continue to keep Rhaenyra's children's rights even though he had to know they weren't Laenor's HERE. This is another person you seem to have totally ignored or forgotten, an example of a man/male ruler choosing to not rock the boat for himself, as a rebuttal to your example of The King of France and "fought wars with the vassals and the Flemish....".

Btw, this also just revealing how it is people, not bastardry, who endanger succession because you brought up a situation where the ruler felt, from how he observed his own situation before and during the reveal of his daughters-in-law infidelity, that he needed them gone. Viserys had the ability to just keep stuff under wraps, because as rhaenyragendereuphoria ALREADY noted, there was plausible deniability. Again, where is the part where you try to disprove their specific arguments instead of deflecting and ignoring? Acknowledging those arguments?

Anyway, point is the Vaemond made it a big deal because he wanted to get something out of it, therefore he got munched.

Thirdly, in the book, Vaemond's relatives' tongues were taken out after protesting Rhaenyra killing Vaemond. True. I already said here that Vaemond invited danger to himself in his bid to gain power that he independently wanted and tried to gain by calling Rhaenyra's sons bastards and trying to gain agreement or force Viserys to "admit" it.

Vaemond's relatives', knowing that Viserys already OPENLY announced that no one should ever question Rhaenyra's kids' parentage. Those relatives did so anyway. They knew why Vaemond did what he did, and still expected Viserys to just...recompense them? And Viserys never punished Rhaenyra, nor would he because, again, he already said that no one should do that, and Vaemond did it anyway.

Quote from Book:

Even this did not end the matter, however. Ser Vaemond’s younger cousins fled to King’s Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps to the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in a stony silence, then ordered their tongues removed, every one. “You were warned,” he declared, as they were being dragged away. “I will hear no more of these lies.”

("A Question of Succession")

So in that moment, though violent, it was already forewarned. And Viserys, being King who's word is law and needs to back up said word, ruled their tongues should be cut out for going against his law/word.

This was also after the constant pressures of Alicent and the incident of Vhagar and Aemond's eye. It is reasonable to see that both Viserys and Rhaenyra were just done with these and decided to go hard and fast against these people. Which, I must remind people, is actually something feudal people want: decisive leader/monarchs who back up their words.

So this also shows how you have ignored and have not sufficiently made an argument against that VISERYS, the King, the analogue to your "King of France...", deciding to keep Rhaenyra's kids openly legitimate despite the fact that he would likely have known they weren't Laenor's. Viserys point blank acted differently from the King of France we're talking about here, and he decided to. Why? I already say why in my linked post that I am sure will probably get ignored, but ultimately because he both saw this as the easier way to maintain control and Rhaenyra's claim/succession PLUS his personal affection and regard for her.

I also include mentions and quotes from Herman's Sex with the Queen many times in my posts about medieval/monarchial/feudal women and infidelity whenever this is mentioned. Maybe take a read of that?

Finally, we're not in a story where the reasons to uphold the classist status quo goes un-criticized. GRRM is writing a story--that F&B is a part of--to re-humanize &heroize dehumanized groups of people like bastards, women, peasants, children. Vaemond is one of thise that serves as an antihthesis to the protection or advancement of one of these people, Rhaenyra--a woman--for his onw advancement. To put it very simply.

horizon-verizon

Anonymous asked:

Rhaenyra deserves to be usurped in the show because of her stupidity. She shows no political cleverness and easily allows the Greens to increase their influence and control at court, which is why she is so easily usurped. When her father is on the brink of death she returns to Dragonstone instead of staying with Daemon in King’s Landing to make sure her allies are in place to help her ascend the throne peacefully.

I’m not against Rhae Rhae because she’s a woman, I’m against her because she’s just stupid and reckless. I’d be equally as against her if she was a man. Aegon II isn’t a better ruler in any way, but his council certainly is, and if he behaves like Robert Baratheon who was always drunk, his council would just rule the realm for him. So I believe that Aegon’s council would rule the realm way better than Rhaenyra would.

EDIT (5/31/24): Rhaenyra suffers from really bad sexist writing on GRRM's, not just* the maesters', part and it undermines his own point.* And no, she doesn't need to be necessarily "moral" like Dany to be a deserving ruler.

The point of her story was to highlight how no matter how good or evil or morally ambiguous a person you are, if you are female, you are subject to losing a power men are just granted. Or usurped. And this is inherently wrong. Rhaenyra chose to go to war rather than give up. This is valuable. Visenya was not thinking "for the realm" or for the benefit of smallfolk or outside of her family, yet she as so many fans bc she was not passive or restricted by "madness". She has less sexist writing.*

A)

Show!Viserys’s ailment is far worse than it was in the book, so Rhaenyra seeing his death imminent is not canonical. Writers’ fault, no matter what GRRM says.

This alone would require a total rewrite of how things went down as to how the Greens usurped Rhaenyra both in the show and the book. Because unless Viserys were to explicitly tell Canon!Rhaenyra to go back to Dragonstone, I do not think that Book!Rhaenyra would look at Show!Viserys' condition and not stay at the Keep.

That the writers didn’t think of this, intentionally refused to follow through, means that they either wanted to write this show for mere bucks and were too lazy/uncreative to rewrite and follow their own rewritings OR they sincerely think Book!Rhaenyra is inherently unfit for the throne.

B)

You: “Rhaenyra deserves to be usurped in the show because of her stupidity. She shows no political cleverness and easily allows the Greens to increase their influence and control at court, which is why she is so easily usurped.”

What I am about to say is true for BOTH show and book Rhaenyra, bc the the story, her story, is the same:

I don't deny that Rhaenyra's last choices at KL were unstrategic OR self-contradictory (Rosby and Stokeworth [self contradictory in principle, strategic for the practical...in the moment], the Velaryon bastards-turned-lords, & Nettles). That after Nettles, she shouldn't have ruled.

I also think that those decisions are reflections of the already existing Targ-Andal patriarchal, blood-purist paradigm, that Rhaenyra is the example of a character who was FIRST felled down by the people around her (and harassed since childhood--10) and THEN by her own actions that were responding to those harassment and external doubt in her because she is a woman first invested with and then choosing to press for power and a position taken from her.

While it is definitely true that Rhaenyra seems to have always had some Targ-Andal elitism that built some of her confidence in her claim's validity, the personal history, plus the long societal censure, plus her kids dying would have some sort of effect on her. And it did, namely her doubling down and attempting to maintain control at all costs and most "conveniently"--or in the quickest gratification--which means conceding about Rosby and Stokeworth and attacking Nettles to reclaim Daemon (not just sexual partner, but her military and political support who if he had children with another would create competition for her and her kids).

I have a post where I talk about how Book!Alicent was majorly stupid HERE and how Show!Alicent is horribly written AND was never a true friend of Rhaenyra/a nonthinking "person" HERE & HERE. just because I never ever hear how people think ALicent messed up (and she did) espe making her anger lead her there. In fact, many actors did, and they are somehow "better" than Rhaenyra to some people bc they do not characterize Rhaenyra's feelings and responses as either consequential.

And then there is jeynearrynofthevale's post about how HotD failed or what they could have done to make the show better HERE, where they say:

Spend way more time on court politics and the buildup of the dance. Show why the two sides are falling the way they do and establish the core issues at play. Spend some more time establishing the characters before time jumps. Maybe give Rhaenyra motivation for ruling in terms of what she wants to do. Have her and Alicent navigate around each other in court.

Partly, I think that the kind of frustration people feel towards horror movie characters for not doing this and that has been copied just a little bit towards Rhaenyra and not enough on the writing of this show.

Canon!Alicent and Rhaenyra were 9 years apart and Alicent turned on Rhaenyra ever since she birthed Aegon II, so we know she has plotted against rhaenyra since then. And argued with Rhaenyra, openly since she was at least in her early teens.

Why did the writers choose to remove Alicent’s evil stepmother characterization and replace it with a pseudo-best friends relationship? Because they (Migeuls Sapochnik and Sara Hess I think) thought it was too discriminatory towards Alicent...meanwhile this experience of an older woman victimizing her stepchildren or just other children for the sake of her own power or her own children’s safety/prosperity is a very real and common event. And women can just want to benefit from the patriarchal system and freely victimize or fight other women for power within that system.

It is actually feminist to tell such a story, to let people see that cycle of patriarchal abuse and selfishness, how it enlists women to attack each other or attack vulnerable people. To remove that from Alicent and to make Rhaenyra this conciliatory person willing to give up the throne “for the realm” as Viserys told her is to make the general phenomenon of women wanting power into an inherently evil thing.

Canon!Rhaenyra didn’t want power and decided that everyone was now her bitches, anon, she wanted it because she was selected for it, and she feels up to the task so it is within her dignity, and Viserys explicitly named her as his heir. She never doubted her own rights visibly. And she "grew up" and stood up for herself in her black/red dress moment, you know, that moment that the writers gave to Alicent.

In the same canon moment, she was also silently saying to Alicent that she wasn't putting up with her domestic bullshit. So even Show!Rhaenyra is lacking and a reflection of sexist writing.

Here are a few posts as to why this show is sexist despite it claiming it is feminist:

Male Gaze, Female Vicitmization, and Visual Eroticism in HotD (a reblog of my post written by xenonwitch)
The essentialist argument of "Women-pacisift-and-weak vs Men” (written by rhaenyragendereuphoria)
Evil Women and Patriarchy (by ainomica)
Evil Stepmothers ARE Compelling (by minetteskvareninova )

C)

Rhaenyra is Princess/Lady of Dragonstone. She inherits a lord’s authority over it at the age of sixteen in the book, as is royal custom. Dragonstone:

is her family’s original Targ seat of power in Westeros (Aegon I and the Targs pre-Conquest)
the one place where her authority goes uncontested, so it is here where she can bunker her children and has already accumulated resources against the Greens

Basically, this requires more of a Doylist reading of HotD and a look at how the writers chose to write this season and how Rhaenyra/Alicent grew up while at court after both marry.

And in canon, Rhaenyra dragged Maester Gerardys with her to Dragonstone to heal Viserys when Mellos wasn't helping at all, but Alicent wanted her to leave afterward, saying Rhaenyra was an interloper:

but Alicent was the one to try to send Rhaenyra away, saying she "meddled" into affairs that she mean to mean were not Rhaenyra's problem... despite Viserys being her father...:

This, again, indicates that Alicent has been working to isolate and exclude Rhaenyra for years before and after Daemon came back in 111 A.C.

Alicent used to try to welcome Rhaenyra as a daughter, or at least be well-meaning sometime before her son was born:

Rhaenyra was born 97 A.C. Aegon was born 107 A.C. Rhaenyra was 9-10 years old when he was born, which means Alicent started to resent and plot against her at that time:

Alicent very clearly was building a faction and garnering support against Rhaenyra, and couple that with what happened to Otto, plus how hateful they became of each other, what Alicent thought she and her son were owed...I think it's very safe to say that she put Rhaenyra down a lot in the Red Keep with innuendoes, implicit insults, remarks, etc. also remarks meant to make her look bad or sluttish, like this one:

Why this change? Or really, the suppression of the heat between them, the lack of backfire against Alicent?

D)

You: “Aegon II isn’t a better ruler in any way, but his council certainly is, and if he behaves like Robert Baratheon who was always drunk, his council would just rule the realm for him.”

You obviously never read the book. From the beginning, Aegon wanted and took control. while Criston lied to him that Rhaenyra would kill him otherwise, Aegon--I as I argue--likely always felt at least entitled to the throne and jealous of Rhaenyra's state if only because he feels entitled to a lot of things as a prince (his gluttonous and assaultive behavior). Only Alicent and his sister-wife being able to hold him back so he could be persuaded into not killing Rhaenyra. Twice. (Posts HERE, HERE, QUOTE #1, QUOTE #2, and what he would have done to Rhaenyra’s son, Aegon the Younger).

Aegon II and Robert Baratheon are still two different people, with different circumstances. Aegon II was born a prince and rode a dragon, inheriting the magical ability to ride dragons. He has his pride and because Alicent directly taught him to consider his own sister lesser, he was very eager to become king no matter what Septon Eustace has to say about it.

He argued with Otto directly for not bringing about things the way he wanted to. Robert never argued or felt powerful/able enough to argue against Tywin.

But he never allowed others to rule for him until he shattered and burned his body while fighting Rhaenys. and even after he does what he does at Dragonstone...I already alluded to it above in the parentheses where I give links to posts and quotes.

*EDIT* And then what happens AFTER Otto and Alicent dies?

E)

You: “I’m not against Rhae Rhae because she’s a woman, I’m against her because she’s just stupid and reckless. I’d be equally as against her if she was a man. [...] So I believe that Aegon’s council would rule the realm way better than Rhaenyra would.”

And yet, you think that Otto Hightower, the man who pushed Rhaenyra into the heir position by convincing Viserys to do so just so he can prevent Daemon being named heir -- thus he and Viserys started this whole debacle (if we were to argue about who was politically stupid here and set up this civil war) -- is a good candidate for ruling of any kind?

The same Show!man who forced his own daughter to marry a rotting, much older man just so he can seat her/Viserys’ sons by her on the throne for his own selfish benefit?

The same man who enabled Vaemond to go against Corlys’ wishes for Lucerys to get the Driftmark seat?

We can go back to how people expressed how the lords of Westeros and their kids looked at Rhaenyra askance because they were anxious that bastards in their own families would have an easier time contending with them....but:

Rhaenyra’s sons ARE "legitimate" and the lords have nothing to fear (written by theblackqveen)
bastardry is NOT natural, it is entirely contingent on human decision (original post written by me and the reblog by the-king-andthe-lionheart)
doesn’t Otto’s going against Corlys express wishes and plotting with Vaemond count as him endangering Corlys’ house’s succession and stability? The same argument that greens argue for how the lords/their sons will look at Jacaerys becoming king? Otto actively does this. Where’s the consistency, the truth-telling in this argument?

All this shows misogyny on your part, anon. Sorry about it.

horizon-verizon reblogged

rhaenyragendereuphoria

You guys are killing me with your performative anti-racism:

Is it a bad look? Yeah. Especially for you guys who keep jumping on one foot then the other on whether we use the show or the book versions this week to back our point.

Hey fandom, how wealthy and privileged are the Velaryons again?

qwertyu858

See, nobody would say shit so stupid if it wasnt bc the show runners ~~(and martin)~~ wanted those sweet, sweet "diversity" points but without the need to create actual black characters instead of racebending some white ones.

Also, baela and rhaena are right then, living. Unless they die without heirs, vaemond cant demand shit. If you want to go full racism, Vaemond was just a very privileged man (black or not) stealing the right of two black women.

rhaenyragendereuphoria

They all conveniently forget Rhaena and Baela, how they're his blood too, and how their children with Jace and Luke ~~if things had gone well~~ would also be his blood. Unless they're against "race-mixing" too? Do they hate Rhaenys, another "extremely wealthy and privileged white woman" in their view, for "diluting" his blood? Is "pure Valyrian blood" rhetoric okay now if it's Black blood? Wow this isn't going into an incredibly dangerous minefield (*). This isn't exactly the kind of dangerous shit cults like Black Hammer peddled as "social justice" and "anti-racism". Actually, you guys start writing essays about how problematic Rhaenys is and how she oppresses her Black husband. Can't wait!

I'm not entirely opposed to colorblind/racebend casting as it can be a good opportunity for Black actors to play a role they usually wouldn't because of typecasting, but then those pseudo-activists still typecast them by reducing these actors and their characters back to their race. It also leads to extremely awkward situations with unfortunate implications like in Westworld and The Handmaid's Tale TV shows. I have not been watching the new Interview with the Vampire show, but casting Black actors for Louis and Claudia can be both brilliant or extremely terrible whether the show runners can handle it or not. Louis owned slaves. He had a plantation. There were mixed race people who owned slaves. There were people we would consider Black by our standards but not theirs because race is an arbitrary construct that changes through time and place. Is the show addressing that? I don't know. Honestly, I think I don't want to know. I'm staying away from that trainwreck.

The Velaryon casting seems to be made to appeal to GRRM's sudden thought that he should have made the Valyrians in general and the Targaryens in particular Black. Oh that's brilliant, George, you really didn't think this through at all did you?

He keeps trying, and then the show runners keep trying, but it's poorly thought out, and then creates an adaptational mess for more performative activists and allies to jerk off over how smart they are because ✨THEY CAN SEE THE PROBLEM✨ (no shit? we all did) even though this kind of colorblind casting only exists in the first place to satisfy these very same jerks who only care about appearances and empty representation.

YOU CREATED THIS PROBLEM.

And I didn't see many of them complain about D&D's fanfic of a finale turning an army of Black and Brown men into a cheap Nazi parallel. Nah, that was "brilliant" or something.

(*) That minefield is the same as TERFS and feminist separatism and political lesbianism. If you start arguing all interracial relationships are unequal then so are all heterosexual relationships. As an individual from an oppressed group, you have the right to refuse to date men or white people. However, if you ban your child from doing so and disown them, that's abuse. If you tell your neighbors or community to ban it, that's now an ideology. Can you still do it? Sure. I can't stop you. But I won't stop calling you out on it, and I won't let you fool people into believing this is the only valid form of anti-racism the way terfs monopolize feminism and anti-sexist actions.

#asoiaf race #hotd race #hotd comment #hotd #house of the dragon #vaemond velaryon #vaemond velayron's characterization #baela and rhaena #baela targaryen #rhaena targaryen (daemon's daughter)#rhaena targaryen #the velaryons #GRRM #asoiaf fav posts #hotd critical

horizon-verizon reblogged

Anonymous asked:

i can’t believe people were actually defending vaemond calling rhaenyra a whore and her sons bastards? and people were acting like he was some noble truth teller and not just opposing rhaenyra for his own self interest.

ozymalek-deactivated20240224 answered:

he was yet another usurper so of course they stan him. corlys wasn't even dead when vaemond made his petition, and he disregarded his wishes, just like otto and alicent disregarded viserys' wishes. not to mention that they simultanously cry about baela and rhaena losing driftmark but support him, even though him getting driftmark would rob them of driftmark. no consistency here, anyone who opposes rhaenyra is good to them

#vaemond velaryon #hotd comment #fandom commentary #asoiaf asks to me #hotd characterization #vaemond velayron's characterization #HotD episode 8 #the velaryons #fandom critical #ozymalek #hotd #asoiaf

horizon-verizon reblogged

the-king-andthe-lionheart

eschercaine

About the parentage of the three Velaryon princes...

Just my rant. If you don’t like it, back out now.

The House of the Dragon producers made the Velaryons black and changed Rhaenys’ hair color to make it obvious that Rhaenyra’s children were bastards.

The Velaryons shares the Valryian look of the Targaryens.

House Velaryon is of Valyrian descent, and its members often have Valyrian features, such as silver-gold or silver hair and purple eyes. Some Velaryons have blue eyes. — Fire & Blood, The Sons of the Dragon

In contrast to the tv show, book!Rhaenys has black hair because she inherited it from her mother, Jocelyn Baratheon.

Rhaenys was a great beauty. She had black hair and lilac eyes. By the time she was fifty-five, she had a lean, lined face and her black hair was streaked with white. — Although The Princess and the Queen, published in 2013, stated that Rhaenys had silver hair, this has been changed for the publication of Fire & Blood, where she is described to have had black hair, like other Baratheon descendants.

Jace, Luke, and Joffrey could’ve inherited their dark hair from either or both their parents. Laenor’s maternal grandmother is a Baratheon. However, we have no knowledge about Corlys’ parents. Rhaenyra’s maternal grandfather was an Arryn.

Regarding Harwin Strong, the alleged father of the Velaryon princes, we don’t know the color of his hair or eyes or the shape of his nose, so we can’t actually confirm that he resembled the children. The book asks us to assume they looked like him because the accusations were made in the first place.

Breakbones was said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms in his day. He was described as being massive and redoubtable. — Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

The only confirmed member of the House Strong whose hair color we know is Lucamore the Lusty, once a member of the Kingsguard.

Lucamore was described as an amiable, strapping, broad-shouldered, young blond bull. He was a great favorite of the smallfolk in tourneys and was well loved at court. — Fire & Blood, The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progency, and Pain

...and he’s blonde.

About the accusations, wasn’t it Vaemond Velaryon and the Greens started those rumors?

With his trueborn children dead, by law his lands and titles should pass to his grandson Jacaerys… but since Jace would presumably ascend the Iron Throne after his mother, Princess Rhaenyra urged her good-father to name instead her second son, Lucerys. Lord Corlys also had half a dozen nephews, however, and the eldest of them, Ser Vaemond Velaryon, protested that the inheritance by rights should pass to him… on the grounds that Rhaenyra’s sons were bastards sired by Harwin Strong. The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon. — The Rogue Prince

Yes, what Rhaenyra did to Vaemond was cruel. But she’d been made the subject of these rumors for 6 years by the Greens, and it had gotten to a point where Alicent and her children were taking them as fact and using them as justification to attack her sons.

Imagine that Rhaenyra’s children were legitimate. How should she have responded? Vaemond openly declared that he was going to oppose the legitimacy of both the heir to the throne and his future liege lord for very self-serving reasons.

Perhaps I’m just reaching here, but what if the Velaryon princes indeed had a Valyrian looks but were written down as having brown hair and brown eyes to demonize Rhaenyra? To show that she’s unfit to rule because she birthed three illegitimate children?

GIF by richdifeo

After all, Grand Maester Mellos was in charge of writing the court chronicles during King Viserys’ reign before dying and also a Green supporter.

In 120 AC, Mellos in his writings is the one that suggested that the fire at Harrenhal that killed Lord Lyonel Strong and his heir, Ser Harwin Strong, was ordered by Viserys. Mellos implies that the king had come to accept the rumors that his grandchildren by his daughter, Rhaenyra, were really bastards sired by Harwin, thus he desired to keep the truth concealed and kill the man who had dishonored his daughter. — Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession

I enjoy watching Game of Thrones: Histories and Lore. So when I began to watch the story about the Targaryen civil war, I’m quite interested.

These are the Velaryon princes, Jace, Luke, and Joffrey plus Aegon the Younger and Viserys.

This is Prince Lucerys Velaryon.

I’m quite interested that they all have silver-blonde hair instead of brown hair. Or perhaps it’s just an error on the colorist’s part.

horizon-verizon

It’s an interesting theory and it makes me want to go back and see the deal with this Mellos maester. His background and whatnot.

horizon-verizon reblogged

tqwnw

backjustforberena

coffeecat22 asked:

I was rewatching 1x08 and realised that during the Vaemond and Rhaenys exchange when she says "my cousin, the king" (my family and ally, Luke's grandfather) Vaemond responds with "it's not a king who sits the throne (dramatic pause) it's a queen". He could've gone with "it's a Hightower" which would drive the point he was trying to make (that the crown would take his side in the matter of the succession) or even "it's the queen", who is a Hightower and has personal history with Rhaenyra and Luke. Idk if I'm getting too hung up on semantics but it sounds like a dig at Rhaenys, like he saw the chance to insert that in the conversation and throw her off her game or something. It felt like the conversation suddenly shifted and wasn't about the greens being the ones in control and became about a queen being in power, which is weird cause the gender of the monarch doesn't really affect Luke's claim to Driftmark (the monarch being someone who doesn't want him to inherit does) so I can only assume he was trying to affect Rhaenys with his words. What do you think?

backjustforberena answered:

One of the things that struck me is the soft power that both Vaemond and Rhaenys use when it comes to familial names. The way they interchange from first names, to relationship, to using pure rank. It’s clear from the offing that this conversation is tense. In the most basic of ways, Vaemond is challenging the established way forward - aka Rhaenys has decreed they believe that Corlys will return, alive, until proven otherwise. He comes out of his shadowy little corner and contradicts Rhaenys’s plan of action. Sure, it’s a private affair, the Maester has gone, there’s only family there, but she’s still on the Driftwood Throne and he’s not giving that the respect it deserves and also he went against Baela saying Corlys was strong. So, Rhaenys comes out swinging: “I will not suffer the talk of crows in my house, Vaemond.”

Talk about strong openers: it’s HER house. It has been for six years, since Corlys left, and yet her authority is questioned still at least in this matter. At least, by Vaemond. She won’t have it. And Vaemond, within the sphere of ruling Driftmark and running House Velaryon, is nothing. No knighthood, no pleasantries, no familial bond or notion of friendship. Just his name and his otherness. It’s a little like later on in the episode, where Viserys uses his first name. It’s a reduction, in context. Rhaenys has more power. And fair enough, Vaemond sticks to his guns, doubles-down on the reality that Corlys might be dead. Though whether that’s his realism and pragmatism over his succession-radar dinging to high heaven, who can say...

Familiar ties are introduced then: Vaemond calls Corlys his brother (none of them ever call him by his first name, which is intriguing to me for some inexplicable reason), Baela calls Rhaenys her grandmother. THEN we get to the battle of “husband”. Vaemond says that Rhaenys in charge due to the “absence of her husband.” - it’s fine. It’s true. It’s enough. It’s a little sexist lesson directed at Baela about the way things are mean to go. He continues, to Baela, that the seat passes on Corlys’s death and THEN Rhaenys interupts him. It’s not his job to teach Baela or his place to patronise her. And whatever way he’s going, he’s wrong. As she expresses by saying the seat passes to Luce: “as is my lord husband’s desire.” - not just husband, as Corlys’s most recent moniker was. It’s hiding behind the officiousness, the formality, the power she has on that Throne. It’s detatched, and it’s detached for a reason. The focus isn’t on “husband” and therefore wife/woman, but on “lord” as in lady, as in nobility, as in in charge, ffs Vaemond, sit your ass down.

And then Vaemond pushes it, and Rhaenys gets angry. But it’s more than that, because she also speaks the kindest she has ever spoken to Vaemond, as much as she still remains detached. Vaemond makes his allusions to Luce’s true heritage and Rhaenys says: “Be careful, good-brother.” As much as he’s a git, she does care. She is warning him, as plainly as she can, and she can’t do it plainly because to discuss it is treason or approaching it, and there is, again a wonder on Baela’s perception of all of this, but anyway - she calls him good-brother. It’s emotive. And in turn, he calls her by her first name. He calls her: “Rhaenys”. In that moment, they’re being as candid as they can. He’s not talking to her in the role she inhabits, sat on that throne, but as a woman, as a human being with an opinion which he is certain of. He walks forwards before he says it, he crowds into her space as much as he can from their positions and it’s imploring. The subtext is there: be honest, stand with me, work with me. She can’t give him that. All she can give him is warnings and the loyalty she feels for him as much as she does for her Targaryen roots. She’s stuck between two positions. Two heads. Two hearts.

And she chooses her path. She reminds him that she cannot be apolitical in this, or unfeeling, or totally Velaryon. And she shows that as well as also showing, again, the power she has with her family ties: “My cousin, the King,” - Rhaenys could have just said “The King”, but she chooses to say what he is to her, and demonstrate that bond. Whether that’s apologetic because she can’t back Vaemond, or whether its a threat of potential favours she could call in if he pursues this... again, it’s unclear. It could be both, at the same time. Either way, it’s a power move. It’s something to straighten her spine and tell Vaemond.

But this time it’s Vaemond that does sort of win. And he reduces her back to a woman rather than ruler by ending it and calling her: “good-sister.” - it’s saying that the Targaryen family she has cannot help her, if she puts her faith in them. But she has her Velaryon roots and she can still choose to stand by him as well and back his claim. It’s demonstrating the conflict of loyalties and the choice that she has to wrestle with throughout that episode. You see it when we stick with her on that final parting shot, as she just breathes out and breaks eye contact with Vaemond.

BUT I realise that’s not at all what you asked, so excuse me for my little ramble, I just like words a lot and so I get excited when I have the opportunity to gab about them. You wanted to know whether his use of “a Queen” was a dig at Rhaenys - I’m not entirely sure I agree. I can see why you read that and the argument you make has definite merit. But I believe it is just about telling us about Alicent’s power in a dramatic fashion, rather than about gender. Alicent isn’t portrayed as a ruling Queen - in the scene where the ‘trial’ begins, it’s Otto sitting on the Throne.

I think the power of those words come from it being Alicent. One thought that struck me whilst writing this is Eve giving an interview about Episode 09 and the scene she has with Alicent, about how Rhaenys hadn’t really given her much thought prior to that, and doesn’t really know her mettle. So when Vaemond says that, he’s introducing an element of risk and kind of saying that Alicent is a bit of a wildcard because Rhaenys doesn’t have enough information to factor her in or know what her ultimate aim is. And I also think that “a Queen” is a little bit synonymous at this point with a larger collective of power, with the Small Council running things. The Queen running things is almost like a smokescreen and what Vaemond is alluding to is this sense of conspiracy. AND the fact that he knows all of this, despite them being in High Tide, speaks to his confidence and betrays his communication with the Small Council and Alicent. Plus, from a writer’s perspective, it’s a great flipping line to end on.

In that moment, Rhaenys is on the backfoot, and he knows something she doesn’t. Or, at least, he knows more than she does on a subject. That’s my two cents on it. But the whole scene is a wonderful battle of wills, opinions and subtext. It’s a conversation close to ignition.

#the velaryons #vaemond velaryon #hotd comment #baela targaryen #house of the dragon #hotd #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf asks from others #rhaenys targaryen's characterization (meleys' rider)#the velaryon house #rhaenys targaryen (aemon's daughter)

horizon-verizon

Even this did not end the matter, however. Ser Vaemond's younger cousins fled to King's Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps of the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in stony silence, then ordered for their tongues removed, every one. 'I will hear no more of these lies.'

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 386

#viserys targaryen #viserys i targaryen #the heir of driftmark #fire and blood quotes #dirftmark claim #dying of the dragons #dance of the dragons #Fire and Blood #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #asoiaf quotes #a question of succession #vaemond velaryon

horizon-verizon

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 386

#the velaryons #corlys velaryon #the heir of driftmark #rhaenyra targaryen #lucerys velaryon #vaemond velaryon #dying of the dragons #dance of the dragons #driftmark claim #rhaenyra i #a question of succession #syrax #rhaenyra and syrax #daemon targaryen

House of the Dragon: Episode 8 “They Were Supposed to Be Adults?! Was Anyone Even a Person?”

*CW: SA*

But this is basically why I think this is the bottom-ranked, dullest episode so far for me:

There is little nuance or complexity to our characters if it doesn’t serve Viserys’ Jesus-savior character development. Where is more of the political backstabbing aside from the Driftmark claim?

My Answer to the Ask:

EDIT (9/15/23)

*EDIT (5/31/24): Rhaenyra suffers from really bad sexist writing on GRRM's, not just the maesters', part and it undermines his own point.* And no, she doesn't need to be necessarily "moral" like Dany to be a deserving ruler.

A)

B)

C)

Basically, this requires more of a Doylist reading of HotD and a look at how the writers chose to write this season and how Rhaenyra/Alicent grew up while at court after both marry.

D)

E)

Hey fandom, how wealthy and privileged are the Velaryons again?

About the parentage of the three Velaryon princes...

CW: SA

EDIT (5/31/24): Rhaenyra suffers from really bad sexist writing on GRRM's, not just* the maesters', part and it undermines his own point.* And no, she doesn't need to be necessarily "moral" like Dany to be a deserving ruler.