editorialized torpedo

There is an enduring sense in the fandom that if you cannot structurally change the entire or major parts of an oppressive status quo, it's somehow better that one does absolutely nothing. Bc you're "messing up the stability of an already stable social order, which proved itself to be the best or most reliable bc it's endured for so long".

And I despise it. Because it essentially means that any effort except a huge, topsy-turvy one where the whole system gets upended or severely so doesn't matter. (At the very least those that don't seem like it.)

I talk about Rhaenys and Visenya HERE, concerning femininity and Andal perspectives of them. I mention Rhaenys using the court and men for her dynasty's sake as you mention, anon. So I can't help but agree. I also said once that she was my fav of the original 3 Conquerors for all of these reasons plus her cleverness in being able to twist the rule of thumb and six into the customs of wife beating. Admittedly, part of it is that I don't see myself as using swords or being a consummate swordsman (I always pictured myself with a bow and arrows if I was to be a warrior at all; swords are too personal and limited, I can't go up to a boar and kill it for food with a sword and expect to have minimal injuries), so Rhaenys is easier to relate to for me.

*EDITED POST* (11/20/23)

Anon means this post.

"It’s just people trying to deny those obvious facts so much that it’s ridiculous."

Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys all lived a very very long time before Rhaenyra ever came into the picture and still so much happens in between these generations that information can be further distorted or lost on top of misogynist masters and courtiers perceiving the original 3's actions and then basing their assessments of their characters on their Andal-FM and Faith lenses. It's actually not "obvious" that Rhaenys had multiple lovers nor is it "obvious" that she and Aegon were poly. Maybe she even had a romantic or sexual relationship with her sister, which would make this a true throuple versus a V (if Visenya were actually romantically and/or sexually attracted to Aegon and vice versa):

We know very little about their dynamic before the Conquest.

A person being flirtatious is not also actually having sex with said person and a lady of the court who patronizes singers or courtiers doesn't have to be sleeping with them simultaneously. Playfulness =/= flirtation or sexual invitation either, that's an Andal & patriarchal affirmation. Maybe Rhaenys was just like that as in she liked to engage with people and make them like her, the lines can be blurred, but Andal people place rough boundaries on female sexuality that playful act from a girl/woman to a man outside of a marriage or direct familial link gets interpreted as sexual. (Although, in the linked post above, I detail a headcanon of Rhaenys-in-court, so it's perhaps she was both more naturally "playful" AND she used the Westerosi sexualized playfulness idea to present herself as benign to male courtiers.)

It's entirely possible that Rhaenys just performed all the actions and interacted with both men and women as the average "lady of the castle" or "Queen of court" that is already expected from an Andal-Westerosi lady like Catelyn. That is being open to conversation with ladies, making promises to their requests (already conversed with their husbands before bringing it up to Rhaenys), patronizing bards and hosting them for those bards to record her and the Targs' generosity and sorta propagandize them. Rhaenys would have known that Andal noblewoman through her own mother, Valaena Velaryon, at the very least (remember that the Velaryons had landed in Westeros before the Targs did and thus they lived close to Westerosi Andals for years to adopt some of their practices). Add that Aegon and Visenya were traveling to various Westerosi castles before the Conquest and the likelihood that they related their experiences to Rhaenys--including their observations and interactions of Andal Westerosi nobles and Rhaenyra would definitely know how she could participate and contribute to her family's/dynasty's maintenance through the role of a hosting, central "lady of the court". She probably even thought of setting a new-but-modified-from-a-past-image trend/ideal of the host noblewoman for other women to emulate, further normalizing Targaryen supremacy. So the maesters and others both unconsciously and consciously, and or in bad faith chose to try to malign her in hatred or envy against the new foreign conquerors who were 2/3 women AND there undoubtedly would be those who wanted to "borrow" some power through the new royals [as a few nobles even offered their daughters to Aegon], just as some & the greens will malign Rhaenyra so they can take the throne for themselves.

Note how the book doesn't give us a PoV nor a real scene with dialogue and individual character action. Just summaries of assessments. We need PoVs and dialogue, etc to see what was Rhaenys' brand of "flirtation" and if these people just assumed she was sleeping with a lot of others just because Andal-Faith women are taught and enforced into more reserved interactions with men who aren't their relatives/husbands. While it's possible she did have extramarital relationships, why isn't possible for Visenya to attract men, even if most are intimidated throughout the relationship/prior to the relationship by her supposed "manliness", assertiveness, and military competency? There are men (like Jon Snow & Baelon Targaryen) who are way more attracted to women able to perform more physically demanding activities, ability to handle a weapon or show the ability to defend themselves better/longer than other women and enjoy it. Who says Visenya wasn't getting low with some secret courtier ass and no one was looking because they didn't see how she could "pull" any man? Visenya would be less playful, more the type to never quite let go or strive to maintain control or be the one directing much, which is not a bad thing in itself unless you are sexist.

As for Rhaenyra, it's not about how "obvious" she was having affairs (can we even call it that when she doesn't have a true marriage, even if it is a legal one and Laenor did not care?!), it's about the weaponization of a woman's sexual autonomy to Other her and makes her the bad guy so she seems less capable or fit for the throne. She can't even act like a "good" woman, so why should she rule? They present her infidelity as a moral failing--a weakness or a failure--similar to how they use her gaining weight as if it were a failing of her conformity & performance of womanhood/femininity.

With both, it's clear the maesters and others wanted to "explain" away their present or incoming power over them all. I also suggest reading this post by azureflight (despite the ask that told me about their racism, bc they still made some salient points about how noblemen likely perceived Rhaenyra):

To pass off the conscious manipulation and excuse it by repeating that Rhaenyra's relationship with Harwin existed just reinforces patriarchal restrictions on women's bodies and autonomy because it assumes the maesters (and septons, they can't be totally separated) are the final moral authority instead of just a group of men with biases & the ever-present agenda of maintaining their cultural authority in the epistemological conditions for Westerosi ideologies. Or reveals how they make themselves the final authority on what Westerosi people understand since they also reinforce Seven teachings about sexuality, gender relations, marriage (and the socioeconomic purpose of marriage for aristocratic peoples), class relations, and beliefs about what women vs. men are capable of as if genders make the individual.

Which in turn makes still works to invalidate and subordinate Rhaenyra's personal motivations politically and emotionally (the context for which she makes her decisions or is perhaps unable to do much of anything else) for the sake of Viserys I's, Jaehaerys I's, the Targs' patriarchal power, and the Faith/Andal-FM/maesters' influence on society's ontological and phenomenological knowledge. With Rhaenys, it reinforces a story that hasn't actually proven to be true AND reinforces how if it was, it'd be a failure of good womanhood on her part. Some of us conveniently "forget" that we are looking and talking about real humans and not just figures who must conform to certain ideal behaviors, but people in power certainly move towards reducing political persons as much as possible to reinforce their commitment to performing ideals or not performing them. Lack of certain or seemingly "a lot" of information exacerbates this.

That is one reason why I despise the ol' "there are two different canons about Rhaenyra and the Dance: HotD & F&B, GRRM himself confirms it!" It totally ignores how there are things that the maesters didn't hide nor could have made up (ages, locations where fights happened or where people lived for a long time, dragon speed, etc) AND it ignores what defines the F&B unreliable narrator of the Dance (Gyldayn, Mushroom, Septon Eustace, Munkun, Orwyle) is their twisting the story and character's characters to present the events:

As such, one has to investigate, compare and contrast, think about context, sometimes put yourself in various characters' shoes, look up facts about Westeros' society and its customs, etcn't doing that already, you picked the wrong genre, but it becomes even more critical once you see a character with no active voice for themselves having others tell their story.

This is all about the manipulation of information and perception, anon, to ready a woman for critique that will never be applied toward a man.

A)

Women --and female dragonriders--with or on the brink of more autonomous power and authority who nevertheless also fit some images of femininity Andal-Faith worshippers are accustomed to. Rhaenys was said to love socializing, music, and dance, and therefore seem more like a lady of the court/The Lady of the court. Music and dance are also feminized when it's not about actually creating scores, poems, etc.--those are (male) bards and maesters, of course. The dominant image of a singer who isn't a bard and just sings already written/known pieces is that of a woman (which makes Lyanna & Rhaegar subversions of that btw). Rhaenys--by being the first queen from a foreign heritage and having actively participated in warfare and conquest with her siblings, is a more foreign figure in Westerosi culture than Rhaenyra who grew up as a Targ-assimilated princess. Rhaenyra is not a warrior, is specifically seemingly attracted to warrior types, loves to dress elaborately, and loves being a mother, having what Emma D'Arcy correctly pins down as "her tribe" (this point is true for both HotD and F&B). And both are women who have continued the main Targaryen royal line at critical junctures for the Targs: Rhaenys' child is the one whose kids continue the Targs after Maegor's end and Rhaenyra's children continue the Targs after that devasting civil was. every Targ has a claim through Aegon but when there were "sides", only one "came out on top", and it is through these two women. Lineage makes the claim and there is always tension over who gives that claim. Therefore,:

seek to identify their roles and characters for now and/or posterity. Whether by emphasizing some traits or hiding some truths--sometimes simultaneously--by social compulsion.

All traits that I listed are very "hyper femme", or traits already associated with womanhood and femininity in Andal/Faith Westeros. Both have the otherworldy Valyrian beauty. Thus both can claim desirability from looks and some behaviors/preferences. Visenya, while acknowledged as beautiful as most Valyrians, was also a consummate warrior with a sword and the skills to use it (Rhaenys did not have one, a very masculinized object). This is the description for Visenya vs Rhaenys in Fire and Blood ("Aegon's Conquest"):

In Andal/Seven culture, feminized things become feminized through their "lacking" something already "masculinized" and masculinized things have the positive value of "strength".

Visenya is described as beautiful, but her physical beauty remains aesthetic, downplayed, and not as emphasized as her "sternness" in the language. Her physical beauty takes a backseat to the very simple description list of her austerity and being "comfortable in ringmail and silk", which itself brings attention to how they see her as fluidly determining her own aesthetic presentation while acting "male" at times.

It leaves one with the impression that she makes these things work for her rather than the other way around. The unconscious idea is that she chooses to be something she "naturally" isn't but does so well, as to make masculinity itself a performance. Again, she doesn't conform, she makes things work for her. And this is more of an Andal-masculinized trait--the ability to make things go your way, you being "active". Cyclically, it's all the more emphasized how she is perceived as an equal to Aegon's masculinity when they note she "was as much a warrior as Aegon"...None of the things are things the men/maesters want to see from a woman, it diminishes the inflexible binaries of Andal manhood and womanhood, make it seem more social than natural.

Rhaenys with her male followers does this sexually (medieval notions of male virility = control/strength), but because she is also simultaneously in proximity to men while not using a sword, she's more feminized than her sister. Swords are decidedly masculine in Andal culture.

Headcanon: It is possible that Rhaenys--being the social influencer I think she was--was also aware of what roles she could play and built a celebrity about her based on her perceived comparative femininity: court lady-ness; having male admirers so there are fewer noble men compelled to talk or act against her and by extension Aegon & Visenya..."soft" power. If these men feel like they can get closer or more intimate with Rhaenys, then they feel less intimidated by her and her siblings. Another difference is that she chose that and chose to fight with her siblings and make laws without consulting Aegon, while Rhaenyra did not bc she was put into that position. Ironically, it kind of backfired, kinda didn't, but there was no real escape from that. It reveals a delicate balancing act that is sorta reminiscent of the one I see in Rhaenyra's premarital (but not actually looking for suitors) tour actually is an attempt to sell an image of her virginity being intact and her "Realm's Delight" moniker/conformity to Westerosi ideal of feminine beauty (the sexually pure model). [look to section B]

Once Visenya carried, used, and used a sword "as well as a man", she becomes/became just the "masculine" woman. The comparison = her personhood. And I mean that they can only conceive of Visenya's personhood through her comparison to her siblings--Rhaenys as well--which isn't "personhood" at all. Despite how all siblings get a description of how they interacted or were seen by the Andals in court or out of it (Visenya's "to even those who loved her" & "no one ever questioned Visenya’s fidelity to her brother-husband"; Rhaenys' "surrounded herself with comely young men, and (it was whispered) even entertained some in her bedchambers on the nights when Aegon was with her elder sister"; Aegon's "had no close friends" & "faithful to his sisters"), Aegon, unsurprisingly, is not actually defined by any comparison to either of his sisters ("Aegon's Conquest"):

Instead, his personhood gets its own "platform", and is evaluated based on how well he fits and "surpasses" the Andal perception of an "able" man and ruler. He is independently characterized. How quaint.

Yes, both sisters rode dragons and both went to battle with them, but the Seven Faith encourages hatred for dragons & Targ incest AND all three siblings rode dragons--the Andal people were compelled to distinguish them both just to record and bc gender divisions call for it.

And the belief that Aegon was more in love with, or only in love with Rhaenys lends to her sensuality & attractiveness. There is a reason why the two sisters are described in their own paragraphs one on top of the other AND how it all ends with how the Maesters/Andal people perceived Aegon's love for each woman. They are male-gazing these women through Aegon, who temporarily takes on their own gaze bc he is the man as well as the head of that house even before the conquest.

But while sensuality is not the same as sexuality, in Westeros it becomes that way through the preoccupancy of reproduction overlapping with female fertility for male dominance-female-obedience and history-defined-through-patrilineality. To keep it very, very simple, the main purpose of a noblewoman is to contain & incubate the heirs of her husband. Noblemen have military command and participation. Therefore, everything gets bogged down or reaffirmed by the body's sexual function defining its value and attractiveness.

B)

Rhaenyra and Rhaenys both had a more sensual seeming (for being so "attractive") while still occupying those male-centered spaces and roles or behaviors by their own selves and how they were percieved. They are still dragonriders and of Valyrian descent with a stronger sense of their own autonomy apart from male interests due to having more access to power than most Andal-descent women expect and are allowed to have, they are both still Other. Rhaenyra is more assertive of her privilege to rule by the right of primogeniture, which tends to favor men and boys in Westeros. This alone goes against ideals for female subservience, even with real examples of women leading armies or houses in pre-Targ history (Agnes Blackwood, a Vale woman I forget the name of, and Jeyne Arryn). Also, I already stated about Rhaenys & Rhaenyra's sexualities and also come into concern bc they have to do with female "chastity"/virginity and the political claims of their children/the then-critical sociopolitical climates of their respective times: Rhaenys in the freshly conquered and unified Westeros; Rhaenyra in the time where she is the one to be the first female heir/to-be-monarch after years of women being disenfranchised, sidelined, and/or abused by their Targ male relatives.

We also remember her tour meeting several of them and a Frey even declaring that he'd wanted to marry her ("A Question of Succession"):

This shows both her manufactured image of accessibility to certain men, also creates an image of her father's intentions and control over her body.

Regarding female sexuality with Rhaenyra it is after rumors of her sleeping w/Daemon and Viserys' subsequent desire to marry her off. Rhaenyra--unlike Rhaenys--was set to become the monarch and for the very first female monarch, there was a fine line she would have to ride: she can't be seen as weak, but as a woman, she can't be too assertive AND she can't be looking for sex or intimacy as a woman,--since monarchs have been male until now-- virility is an ideological element of good rulership/kingship, and she's expected to provide healthy heirs, she cannot be as kept out of sexual matters as regular aristocratic/royal women.

Their womanhood, as perceived by Andal-Westerosi, oscillates between womanhood and manhood, suggestiveness and innocence-as-weakness bc of this relationship and the dynamic of their handling of their image. While they are more "attractive" in some familiar "feminine" traits, they ultimately still do not conform as much as they do precisely bc of that oscillation.

Therefore, there was more scrutiny, because there is always the need to punish and make them fit into one mold. More image-control. Since that mold itself is insufficient to really define a person, it never works. they will never be made "sense" of, but bc they don't they will always be the subject of attempts at "sense" making. Thus frustrating masters and garnering some of that lovely manner of misogyny in their reputations you identified.

Anon, I feel you. They don't want actual improvement, they only want to be right or to push conservative rules and restrictions while reaping the privileges that will come from it.

The fuller quote of the situation anon refers to is this:

Oh, would you look at that. A Targ woman, Targ Queen with lawmaking or a lot of law shaping power, making the lives of Westerosi women better. Who could have thought? You know, I thought it was utterly impossible, since all Targs are like cops and are abusers of the poor Westerosi lords. What a good show.

Rhaenys was especially wise to not outright flout Faith tenets, only modifying them, due to the Targs' fresh coming into power and their decision to not come across as rulers who would totally disregard their subjects' practices and replace them with their own (as colonizers would). She used Faith principle, its importance on the number 7, and its penchant for avoiding most to do with the Stranger. (And note how Dorne is the only territory that doesn't implement this idea that a man has the right or beat his own wife under any circumstances.) And she made sure to consult maesters and septons while showing herself doing so.

That shows her cleverness. And why she is my personal favorite of the three Targs.

This section of Fire and Blood -- "Three Heads Had the Dragon" -- especially details how both Queen Consorts had greater political power and abilities to make culture-shifting decisions along with their husband's authority held prime. Even improving the lives or adding institutions and practices later prized by many Westerosi. It's not a fluke, not a coincidence, or something GRRM included or created just for fun.

Finally, love how that man argued he only beat his wife with a rod the width of his thumb (mind you, the "average" man's thumb is imagined as thicker than the "average" women's) as if his wife weren't dead and "kill" is equal to "beat". As if he weren't there due to her death and not her injuries.

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin pg 41

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin pg 40-41

Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 9