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our forty-second art piece is…
rhaenyra and harwin by @didoleonina requested by ghoulishbook
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I am a firm believer in bk!Daemon having genuinely loved bk!Laena AND bk!Rhaenyra. And I do believe show! & bk!Rhaenyra loved Harwin....but she could only devote so much to herself to him because of her circumstances & his inability to really protect her interests.
We have to think about bk!Rhaenyra as a person/character [alinahams] as shown in the actual text, not what we want her to be.
I don't think she would have married Harwin either if Daemon were free. She would choose him if she had to choose before Laenor and any other man she couldn't trust with her secrets or ability to know if they'd try to overwhelm her through any children they might have together (which was practically all she had any contact with, so yeah). But their relationship--unlike Daemon and Laena, which began with a lot of mutual respect and strong attraction (excuse the unintentional pun)--, Rhaenyra seeks Harwin out for a need and there's little to suggest from canon (where she spent most of her time with Daemon and Laena) that there was not much room for Harwin aside from his devotion and enabling her to experience intimacy while maintaining her position. Their entire relationship is so far shaped by her inability to really act as herself bc of the limitations the society places on her gender, which can't be compared to homophobia bc her body is essentially not really her own. A dynastic tool.
Rhaenyra wasn't a "hider" or a very reserved person by GRRM's own description. She loved to show out, project strength through wealth, and defy subtle and unsubtle attempts to reduce her to her gender bc it was through that gender by which she is made to be "small" and undeserving. Which I think developed into her not caring to really hold herself back unless it came to her kids, and Harwin is not her child. Which is why she was so impatient. If she could have ___, why should she ever "settle" for ___? If she could have had this person who in every way fits her needs of the present and future and understands female authority as just as fulfilling the Targaryen heritage, why not have him?
Or maybe a better way to think of this is that Harwin gave her "half" and she has been more than an "okay" heir, fulfilling her duties as much as she could and Viserys allowed her to. Daemon is the perfect "whole" to complement her--you know?
That and how the element of her being forced towards Harwin; Harwin helped give her back her humanity & personhood back but in the shadows, while Daemon re-invigorates her "in the light" where she's determined to be.
Hello! In the book until the king sent Harwin to Harrenhal, was Rhaenyra at that time still in a relationship with him? what do you think?
Pretty sure yes, why not? Sure you could say that without direct and clear evidence and us not being able to spy through Rhaenyra's or her own ladies' writings (GRRM 🙄), we could make as if she ended things with him or he with her for some reason or other. IF you can make it plausible/believable in a fanfiction, I'm all for it.
Daeron II stans/Martell stans are so funny, all we said is that Targaryen men denying their daughters and sisters physical, sexual and emotional autonomy for the sake of their politics was awful, using what Daeron II did to Daenerys as an example. And everytime, they tell us to fuck off and selling teenage girls is actually great.
And the fact that what Daeron II did to Daenerys is CLEARLY meant to be a direct callback to what Viserys did to Daenerys Stormborn too. Damn, I thought we all agreed that selling our (teenage sister) to a foreign older man for political gain was disgusting ?? What changed ?
Because those... “anti racism activists” are quick to call the Dothraki “savages brown rapists” but hey I guess it doesn’t apply to the people of “mi gente latino, Arabs, Spaniard, Italians, Welsh and Southest Asia” region.
I talked about Daeron, Daenerys, Maron, and the Blackfyres HERE.
And the fact that what Daeron II did to Daenerys is CLEARLY meant to be a direct callback to what Viserys did to Daenerys Stormborn too. Damn, I thought we all agreed that selling our (teenage sister) to a foreign older man for political gain was disgusting ?? What changed ?
Nice points! Esp considering that he was already marrying Myriah, why send off Daenerys to be married early?
I think that it has to do with Daemon Blackfyre, that he wanted to preserve his and his sister's reputation, (prevent "relations" b/t her and Daemon, and so there isn't another bastard as with Daena and their father for a multitude of reasons), OR he couldn't persuade Maron from including Daenerys in their deal. Maybe all at once, esp when he's trying to consolidate his own reign/legitimacy/authority. HERE is an interesting essay about his problems and how Daemon Blackfyre would have likely used Daeron's perceived "weakness" to bolster his own claim.
Still don't think the Martells are PoCs or the rest of Dorne (except those of the Greenblood or the "sandy" Dornish), BUT bc the Martells are still not really considered like the other Andal-worshippers bc of that Rhoynar ancestry giving them that absolute primogeniture and the particular accent they have (no most of them do not speak a different language, they just have an accent). So the bigotry against Dornish people is there.
Tags that @rhaenin-time had in that post:
i just read that anon and their briefly take on jj, and in normal circumstances i don't really care about those twt and tktk creators but i truly like stillfrombrooklyn and her opinions on harwin hehe he is not the saint that the fandom claimed him to be. but i wonder about ur opinion on them, harwin and rhaenyra? and harwin and the bunch of strong sisters being around rhaenyra.
Anon talks about this post.
I remember some of stillfrombrooklyn's points about Saera and Jaehaerys and something vaguely abt Harwin. I remeber agreeing with some, disagreeing with others, as one does in fandom or a lot of discussion. I don't remember much, though and I haven't gone back to review.
IDK if it's GRRM's oversight, but the Strong sisters are barely mentioned after their becoming Rhaenyra's "handmaidens" in her/their pre-marriage youths. And idk what about Harwin you want my opinion of. Do you mean whether Rhaenyra loved him, he loved her, whether the love was one sided or mutual? Are you asking if he only approached her and stayed loyal to her for his family's sake, or that kept being his main motivation? Whether the sisters were loyal to her, why or why not, and the quality/motivation of that loyalty?
Rhaenyra is 14-15 when she does what she does w/Daemon (whatever it was) and he is exiled in 112; in 113, she's arranged to be married to Laenor; in 114 alone, she moves to Driftmark with Harwin's sisters (2 out of her total handmaids), Mushroom, and Harwin, marries Laenor, Criston leaves her and kills Joffrey, and Jace is born in that year's last days. I take "waning" days literally to mean just the last one to two weeks in the year and it takes 8-9 months for a healthy fetus to be born and become an official infant. So Rhaenyra is 17-18 when she births Jace.
So are you talking about the fact that Harwin likely impregnates her (as I believe her kids weren't Laenor's, others think differently...it doesn't matter personally or in terms of assigning any sort of "blame" towards her, but it does matter narratively) when she's barely 18 and he'd most likely be older at least by 4 or more years and in his 20s (since he was made a captain in the City Watch in 105, men/boys are usually knighted 15-18 in Westeros, and he had to have built his reputation as "strongest man" from proofs of such experience and we have no proof of him having been very young when he built that reputation)?
It'll be more helpful if you asked specific questions about Harwin and his sisters, anon.
omg that post is so true. the viewers left with the sense that rhaenyra would have chosen harwin even over daemon given the chance, but daemon would have throw laena to caraxes' snout if there were the chance for rhaenyra. the writers didn't know how to balanced both choices from D and R and even L, which was the daughter of two important people within the house targaryen.
I don't think that was what that thread was about, anon.
Daemyras are so violently racist towards Baela, Rhaena and Laena, it baffles me. Sometimes, I’ll be having a good time on the internet or reading a fic, and then I’ll stumble upon something profoundly racist. The racism I've seen is actually turning me off the ship and the characters.
Laena was not Daemon's second choice. He loved her. They were happy, and they had three wonderful children together. They toured Essos together, and he flew to Dragonstone to get Rhaenyra's maester to try to save her life. He loved her deeply, and he mourned her when she passed.
You can love more than one person, and admitting that Daemon loved Laena will not kill you or take away his love for Rhaenyra. Admitting that Baela and Daemon are practically twins will not kill you, it does not take away from the love that he had for Rhaena, Aegon, Viserys and Rhaenyra’s boys. Love is infinite, it can be shared.
I think we can all ask ourselves, even if the showrunners were just so determined to show us that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the romantic heart of the story, why they didn't feel the need to frame Harwin as Rhaenyra's second choice in the same way they did to Laena for Daemon.
I think we can answer it pretty easily.
They even nod to it in the very same episode! Why????
Harwin/Rhaenyra were underdeveloped and it would have added to the tragedy of Rhaenyra then being forced into a match that would not give her heirs — one that she actually fought against in the book partially for that very reason.
Rhaenyra and Cole's fallout would have gone the same way if he'd simply discovered Rhaenyra with Harwin and Rhaenyra had invoked her authority over him for the very first time to order him to keep quiet. Had she put him in a position where he was torn because he is Rhaenyra's protector and he did vow to protect secrets but officially he's sworn to the King, not the Princess.
It still would have knocked Rhaenyra off of Ser Criston's "good woman" pedestal. It would have emasculated a man like Ser Criston for a girl to give him an order like that, for her to then use Ser Harwin or Daemon as a threat to back that order. It would have made him realize he didn't want to answer to a "bad woman" when she ascended the throne. And hey, you could even throw some pining and jealousy in there and make him feel betrayed in that regard.
This scene, and how it gives Alicent 'justification' for her turn against Rhaenyra, would have gone almost the exact same way.
"Oh, no! But what would motivate him to crush Joffrey's skull at a banquet?"
Crazy idea, why don't we consult this handy book full of great recommendations? It's called Fire and Blood!
Where Rhaenyra gives her favour to Harwin rather than Cole for the first time, and Cole shifts his allegiance to "good woman" Alicent. Where Cole channels his rage through tourney fights and it's left ambiguous both in and out of universe whether he consciously meant to kill Laenor's champion or was just raging at him within 'acceptable confines' with no real goal?
Actually... that would make more sense! And bonus, we wouldn't need to deal with all these willfully uncharitable misinterpretations about Rhaenyra and Cole that attempt to vilify her sexuality. I mean, people would still vilify her sexuality, but at least we wouldn't need to deal with the honestly irresponsible 'coercion' arguments.
Wait... this scene has even more behind it now!
Huh, isn't it strange? That changing plot points to better align with the book doesn't seem to change the story overall? That in fact, it seems to make the bigger story make more sense overall? Hmm... I wonder why that is?
Doesn’t Rhaenyra having illegitimate children affect Alicent? A lot of people say that it’s “none of Alicent’s business” but it is. Rhaenyra having obvious bastard children puts Alicent’s own children in danger, because there will be people that want her son to be king over Rhaenyra’s bastard. It doesn’t matter whether Aegon wants the throne or not. People would still rally behind him which would threaten Jace’s rule, and Jace would eventually be forced to kill him to eliminate the threat.
I agree that Rhaenyra as a woman would always face opposition, but her having three obvious bastards really didn’t help her case, and it put her siblings in even more danger. I don’t blame Rhaenyra for not being able to have children with Laenor, but I do blame her for choosing Harwin to father her children. So I think Alicent trying to expose Rhaenyra’s bastards is her way of trying to protect her children’s lives.
A) I've addressed bastards and Rhaenyra this in the following:
In other words, they were NEVER in serious enough danger from any set of lords other than the greens. Neither in show nor book/canon lore.
B) About Harwin...
C) Finally....the Targs at this moment of ruling Targ history has the most dragons, more than the three Conquerors who managed to conquer all of Westeros (except Dorne) in less than three years....I think Jace was fine. Especially as long as Alicent's kids stayed in place and ALL FIFTEEN (or so) DRAGONRIDERS put down the hypothetical and unlikely rebellious lords:
I think that such a bevy would have been enough of a deterrent for the Andal-FM lords who would wish to rebel, even if there were any dumb enough to try. Expect maybe the ironborn, but those who mainly wage war by sail never really presented themselves as real trouble against the Targs after the Conquest and while the Targs had dragons. It is when we get to the Dance, when the Targs are fighting themselves that the ironborn really became a worse threat and it wasn't because of bastards so much as profiting off of the green's usurpation.
All those too young to fight would still leave behind enough grown riders who are intimidating enough.
**All Listed Riders and Dragons are by the time Jacaerys is king: Rhaenyra, Lucerys, Laena, Laenor**
I keep seeing people say Daenerys deserved someone like Harwin. I keep wondering why? Daenerys deserves someone that isn't as useless as him.
his purpose wasn't to be useful, but to love and protect his queen unconditionally. put some respect in harwin's name.
House of the Dragon | 1.06 “The Princess and the Queen”
HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1.03 “SECOND OF HIS NAME”
Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 371
[PT7 of What Happened Between Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Criston]
How is it possible that Harwin was able to witness the birth of Lucerys? It does not seem to me that he attended the birth of his other sons as well.
I must say this: please, anyone who wishes to ask questions or expose themselves (the hypocrites), please refer to whether or not you are talking about the show or just the book. Or both and be specific about it.
In the book, he would easier "witness" (because he wouldn't be in the room) Lucerys' birth because he became Rhaenyra's guardsmen and sworn shield to replace Criston Cole right after she married Laenor in 114 A.C., when she was 17, Laenor was 20, and Harwin was 23-25. And Harwin followed her to Dragonstone before she birthed any kids. So, she birthed her all kids on Dragonstone, not King's Landing. Jacaerys was born 114 A.C. Luke, 115 A.C. And Joffrey in 117 A.C.
Canonically (not HotD), he’s the captain of the City guard from 105 A.C. to 114 A.C.
In the show, Harwin couldn’t have/shouldn't personally witnessed Rhaenyra birthing Lucerys, like how Viserys does with Aemma and his son Baelon (which only happened because he heard that Aemma labor was dangerous and decided to see through her labors himself...which denotes the choice/allowance to do so) because only a husband or a father (and even the dad bit is weird) are justified to enter the labor room, for the woman’s modesty/chastity. Even uncles and brothers is considered strange (rme). Plus, it is generally not acceptable to have a man near the birthing rooms if not related.
In the show, Harwin appeared after she birthed Joffrey, and way after she came back from seeing Alicent and Viserys in the 6th episode. And we don't know if he actually was there for the other births since that jump cut exists. And there wasn't a strong indication in the same episode that he's consistently been there elsewise.
And going back to the location difference, Harwin and Rhaenyra would have had a lot more freedoms on Dragonstone than in King's Landing, since there are less eyes on them and most of the people who work there for Rhaenyra and under her direct authority (unlike in KL where it is Alicent and Viserys). So even though I mention how Harwin couldn't have been close to her birthing rooms in the show, in the book he would/could actually be close to her...
So no, I can't believe that he's been be able to consistently be by Rhaenyra’s side for any of these kids’ births except Joffrey. In the show.
I assume that he is still the captain in the show, but I honestly lost patience with the show by the very first episode with Alicent and Rhaenyra being friends...so someone will have to correct me, here.
Still, Show!version of him--if he’s the captain--should not have had that much time or stupidity to hang around Rhaenyra for too long or without good excuse and not endanger her rep even further.
Yeah, eveytime I see people claiming harwin is her greatest love like it's the absolute truth and not just a HC I always wonder if they read the same book that I did. Because I honestly did not have that impression at all, there's not enough information about their relationship that leads to people treating that as canon. And if we were supposed to come to that conclusion grrm could have done that with very few words like he did with a lot of other couples. And I'm sorry but saying they were lovers and had 3 kids is not enough for me, specially when she was married to a gay man. If grrm really writes their novella that will probably change, maybe he became more interested in the relationship more recently so he might retcon and make it a great romance and that would be fine. But as of now no one is gonna convince me he originally wrote f&b intending for us to have that conclusion. Also it's fine to have that as your hc, I have a lot of hcs too, it's just tiring to see people repeating that as if it's canon and anyone that thinks otherwise is wrong 😶
Hi! Yes, it makes me cringe so hard, like... What book did y'all read? Because it can't be the same one with mine. It's told again and again how Rhaenyra was "enamoured" with Daemon since she was just a girl, how she cheered for him, how thrilled she was at his return, she was always "my prince" this and "my prince" that. (I love her so much, actually, she was so 😭❤) Daemon was her one, great love from beginning to end - it's clear as day. And Daemon spoiled her rotten and pampered her like none other all her life. George could not have made it clearer even if he wanted to.
I mean, to be fair to Grrm, Harwin fans forget that George said that he would like a novella on Rhaenyra, Harwin AND Laenor, because he is interested to know how each party felt in their arrangement. It doesn't sound like a retcon for the greatest romance to me, honestly. You have a gay husband and a princess who needs solace. He had no need to include Laenor, or he could have outright said: "I'd love to write this because Harwin is her one true love" or "I'd love to write this because this is a great love story". But he didn't.
It's also very clear that he had to sent Daemon away because otherwise him and Rhaenyra would either elope together, as they did later, or become lovers, in which case all her children would have silver hair.
And in general all the things George did for Daemon plot wise, are because of Rhaenyra. He sent him 7 years in the Stepstones while she was a child because he did not wish for their relationship to be grooming.
He sent him back to the Stepstones while she was forced to marry because otherwise they would become lovers. When Daemon married Laena Rhaenyra was heavily pregnant. The moment Daemon comes back from Pentos with Laena, they are always with Rhaenyra, always together.
(Because even George knew it would be illogical for them to stay apart)
This headcanon with Harwin is just that, a headcanon, and it honestly makes me go 😬 every time I read it, especially because you are treated like the biggest idiot if you don't agree, and it's frustrating. Harwin does absolutely nothing for me as a character, I'm sure Rhaenyra loved him, they had children together, and Daemon did perceive him as a rival for her affections. But other than that we know nothing about his personality, only that he is "unproblematic".
And this is something this fandom absolutely adores - minor side characters devoid of any kind of personality (or importance to the story) that are unproblematic. There is something to be studied about this, really.
I used to be frustrated by all this, but now I find it quite amusing actually? I would only wish for them to stop bashing and hating on others when they don't agree with their imaginary headcanons. Going as far as to claim that "only us can enjoy Rhaenyra and Daemon as a couple intellectually, only us are their real fans, because we understand how much they loved Harwin and Laena". Which... what does that even mean? Gatekeeping fantasy couples? It's giving embarassing, really. 🤷♀️
