horizon-verizon reblogged
Visenya and Maegor
Anonymous asked:
I don’t even think that Aegon II can be compared to Maegor. Sure, both are usurpers, rapists, tyrannical, cruel, and extremely violent, but Maegor was highly intelligent, and while he was brutal beyond words prosecuting his war against the Faith, it was genuinely a war, one started by the Faith no less, who were openly trying to overthrow the entire Targaryen dynasty because of their practice of incest.
There also the fact that his brother’s way of ruling, while undeniably less violent, only led to divisions and the weakening of royal authority. His tactics, while creating severe long term problems, did stabilize and centralized the Crown within King’s Landing, and it can still be argued that the amount of violence and war he had against many of the houses bled away enough of the other houses and families power that his reign did more to solidify the Targaryen rule then his brother’s did.
Jaehaerys and Alysanne managed to push through their incestuous marriage in part because Maegor had previously suppressed much of the most violent opposition to Targaryen rule and customs. Notably, Jaehaerys and the subsequent kings declined to reverse his outlawing of the Faith Militant.
His drastic solutions bore fruit repeatedly down the years: particularly post-dragons. Cersei finds out first-hand why he had such a severe and unrelenting policy regarding the Faith Militant.
And it was in his reign that the construction of the Red Keep was completed. (The royal apartments are housed in the holdfast that continues to bear Maegor’s name.)
Ultimately, Maegor was a truly appalling man but not a completely incompetent or ineffectual ruler, unlike Aegon II.
I already expressed my thought about Maegor HERE, but not in further detail.
1.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "highly intelligent" for Maegor. He wasn't necessarily stupid, but he also didn't have the intelligence or cunning that I'd say either Jaehaerys or Alysanne had. He didn't seem able to come up with cunning, nonviolent ways to suppress the Faith first, which isn't weak (Doctrine of Exceptionalism, after all) or use some mixture as a first resort, AND he couldn't right after he came into power because of Aenys' blunders, allowing the Faith's power to grow after Aenys refused to use any sort of substantive countermeasure, hard or soft power. Aenys lacked ruthlessness and fortitude and was unwilling to lose public favor, thinking that was enough to keep him on the throne or hold power. If everyone "likes" you, they want you to continue to be their leader, yes?
But Maegor's special brand of cruel violence didn't stay towards the Faith, it also extended towards the family overall it was always his first move. It got him only fear from people, when to rule you need people to respect your ability to rule without fearing that the next day you will kill them for just protesting against an already morally questionable action. did Tyanna kill his second wife, Alys yes. Why did Alys AHrroway and her entire house have to die, though, even if Alys had affairs? And the violence done to Tyanna--cutting out her heart when coupled with the fact that he himself ignored her (despite her being his mistress of whispers for some time and serving him else wise), is impurely intolerable.
2.
Though I agree that, ironically, his "work" against the Faith was necessary and lasting (though the last part because his successor chose to continue to suppress the Faith's ability to say much about what Targs can do concerning the Valyrian incestuous marriage), like Aegon II, who dealt with the Shepherd as what needed to be done, Maegor killed such people for his own agenda of dominance and he did it with no balance of other tactics to inspire real loyalty or get people to at least trust he wouldn't destroy them. In that, the two can be compared and made parallels. He ruled with too much fear.
Obviously, it was objectively better for the dynasty that such zealotry be put down and for this territory to be less influenced (even a little) by Seven tenets, it's worth it as well to point out that Maegor was more than willing to take advantage of the patriarchal sense in the Seven/Andal traditions. Ironically, it is the fact that since Andal traditions prioritize male power and male virility over much else, Maegor took advantage to do as he wished and marry Alys Harroway for the sake of continuing the Targ lineage...and doing it through himself.
Yes, he named Aerea as his heir, but that was expedient for his own goals instead of a trust in her or belief in her right to rule. As was marrying her mother/his niece Rhaena to him forcibly. And his treatment of his wives at their inability to birth male heirs, heirs at all, from him showed his own acts of suppressing those around him--especially his female relatives/companions--for himself Visenys was physically and politically safe from him, but he didn't have as much regard for her as we'd want from someone who actually leads a people: he left her sword, Dark Sister, to hang in Dragonstone after Aenys gave (stupidly) gave him Blackfyre, the king's/monarch's sword. Aegon didn't hurt Alicent, nor did he dismiss her in such a clear act, but he also did not/would not take her nor other councilors' advice or strategies in his paranoid impatience. Which displays the same sort of male entitlement buttressed by Andal uber-male prioritization. And yet, both men were able to ascend because their mothers brought them in.
3.
The Dance was also a war, anon. One that spanned almost as many years as Maegor's wars with the Faith/HS. It is also a "genuine" war.
You will not hear from me any favor for the Faith religion. Maegor's war with the Faith definitely happened because it/the then High Septon would not accept: Aenys marrying his children together; Maegor marrying other women and refusing to keep Ceryse Hightower--the High Septon's relative--as his only wife/Queen Consort; and overall Valyrian practices from gaining precedence over the ruling family. Maegor's polygamy and later incest/dominance vs Rhaenyra's bid for the throne/dominance, however, are two different things with their own moral significances for both Westeros and the Targ dynasty.
At the same time, he, Aegon, and Rhaenyra all went to war for their own interests and not for a grander, altruistic goal to protect the realm or the innocent, as Dany does for slavery in Essos. All three contended with Andal traditions and Andal figures who wished for their own cultural/religious identities, privileges, principles, and positions to influence or subdue the Targ's Valyrian's for their own gain.
Again, simultaneously: Rhaenyra, as a woman who pressed to ascend, fought for herself in a world that sought to deny her that basic feudalist/monarchial privilege. It isn't about absolute or feudal monarchy being a good or bad thing (because with war showing how obvious that is), so much about the cultural importance of a woman causing change by continuing to press for autonomous power of her own which her society could grant a person. With Maegor's war, yes that had its own cultural significance that you already explained.
Maegor contributed, ironically, to Targ assimilation into Andal culture, even by just denying one or two women in his house autonomy, as it set up and made it easier for Jaehaerys to himself use female exclusion to strengthen his own rule/claim. He was also too brutal and never balanced that with the sort of soft power & manipulation Jaehaerys excelled at...because he was adamant at trying to lay claim to the throne above all else. To the point where he also divided the dynasty...which is not good for a dynasty.
It was only then that the princess came to realize that she was not there to answer for Tom Turnip, but for more shameful sins. For a moment Saera was at a loss for words, but only for a moment. Then she gasped and said, “My Sweetberry? Truly? She…oh, what has she done? Oh, my sweet little fool.” If Septon Barth’s testimony is to be believed, a tear rolled down her cheek.
Her mother was not moved. “You know perfectly well what she has done. What all of you have done. We will have the truth from you now, child.” And when the princess looked to her father, she found no comfort there. “Lie to us again, and it will go very much the worse for you,” King Jaehaerys told his daughter. “Your three lords are in the dungeons, you ought know, and what you say next may determine where you sleep tonight.”
Saera crumbled then, and the words came tumbling out one after another in a rush, a flood that left the princess almost breathless. “She went from denial to dismissal to quibbling to contrition to accusation to justification to defiance in the space of an hour, with stops at giggling and weeping along the way,” Septon Barth would write. “She never did it, they were lying, it never happened, how could they believe that, it was just a game, it was just a jape, who said that, that was not how it happened, everyone likes kissing, she was sorry, Peri started it, it was such fun, no one was hurt, no one ever told her kissing was bad, Sweetberry had dared her, she was so ashamed, Baelon used to kiss Alyssa all the time, once she started she did not know how to stop, she was afraid of Stinger, the Mother Above had forgiven her, all the girls were doing it, the first time she was drunk, she had never wanted to, it was what men wanted, Maegelle said the gods forgave all sins, Jonah said he loved her, the gods had made her pretty, it was not her fault, she would be good from now on, it will be as if it never happened, she would marry Red Roy Connington, they had to forgive her, she would never kiss a man again or do any of those other things, it wasn’t her who was with child, she was their daughter, she was their little girl, she was a princess, if she were queen she would do as she liked, why wouldn’t they believe her, they never loved her, she hated them, they could whip her if they wanted but she would never be their slave. She took my breath away, this girl. There was never a mummer in all the land who gave such a performance, but by the end she was exhausted and afraid, and her mask slipped.”
“What have you done?” the king said, when at last the princess ran out of words. “Seven save us, what have you done? Have you given one of these boys your maidenhead? Tell me true.”
“True?” said Saera. It was in that moment, with that word, that the contempt came out. “No. I gave it to all three. They all think they were the first. Boys are such silly fools.”
Jaehaerys was so horrified he could not speak, but the queen kept her composure. “You are very proud of yourself, I see. A woman grown, and nearly seven-and-ten. I am sure you think you have been very clever, but it is one thing to be clever and another to be wise. What do you imagine will happen now, Saera?”
“I will be married,” the princess said. “Why shouldn’t I be? You were married at my age. I shall be wedded and bedded, but to whom? Jonah and Roy both love me, I could take one of them, but they are both such boys. Stinger does not love me, but he makes me laugh and sometimes makes me scream. I could marry all three of them, why not? Why should I have just one husband? The Conqueror had two wives, and Maegor had six or eight.”
She had gone too far. Jaehaerys rose to his feet and descended from the Iron Throne, his face a mask of rage. “You would compare yourself to Maegor? Is that who you aspire to be?” His Grace had heard enough. “Take her back to her bedchamber,” he told his guards, “and keep her there until I send for her again.”
When the princess heard his words, she rushed toward him, crying, “Father, Father!” but Jaehaerys turned his back on her, and Gyles Morrigen caught her by the arm and wrenched her away. She would not go of her own accord, so the guards were forced to drag her from the hall, wailing and sobbing and calling for her father.
Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin, pg 320-322
After the death of her husband and her flight to Fair Isle, Rhaena Targaryen had acted quickly to protect her daughters. If Prince Aegon had truly been the king, by law his eldest daughter, Aerea, stood his heir, and might therefore claim to be the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms…but Aerea and her sister, Rhaella, were barely a year old, and Rhaena knew that to trumpet such claims would be tantamount to condemning them to death. Instead, she dyed their hair, changed their names, and sent them from her, entrusting them to certain powerful allies, who would see them fostered in good homes by worthy men who would have no inkling of their true identities. Even their mother must not know where the girls were going, the princess insisted; what she did not know she could not reveal, even under torture.
Fire and Blood, by George R.R. Martin pg 98
#rhaena targaryen#Fire and Blood#fire and blood quotes#asoiaf quotes#asoiaf#a song of ice and fire#aerea targaryen#rhaella targaryen#maegor i#maegor targaryen#maegor the cruel#maegor i targaryen#rhaena targaryen (aenys' daughter)#rhaena targaryen (aenys)'s characterization#characterization#the sons of the dragon#the sons of the dragon (F&b section)
horizon-verizon reblogged
Everyone, gets love matches or nearly so in House Targaryen.
Daemon: *exists*
Oh no, there's no Valyrian bride available for prince Daemon.
Me: House Celtigar...exists? Have you checked if they have any daughters close to his age to marry?
ladymelisande-deactivated202407
Gael also existed, the fuckers probably just hated their own grandson.
They hated their children too I feel. Or at the very least we're very very terrible parents. Or both.
ladymelisande-deactivated202407
If one of your children is literally scared of everything the you're doing something wrong.
Like @theflowerofthemountain, I think that the Celtigars simply weren’t on the Targaryens’ radar for marriage matches like the Velaryons were.
Aside from Maegor I choosing nonValyrian women, they never seemd a strong house, just one that never did well handling taxes, funnily enough.
House Celtigar is an ancient and proud house, with the blood of old Valyria in its veins. Lord Crispian Celtigar served as master of coin to King Aegon I Targaryen. The Celtigars claim dominion over Crackclaw Point, but the inhabitants do not acknowledge their claim. When they surrendered peacefully to Queen Visenya Targaryen during the Aegon's Conquest, the people of Crackclaw were officially freed from pledging fealty to anyone but the Iron Throne. The Celtigars occasionally send men there to collect taxes. If Lord Celtigar sends enough collectors, a few come back to him.
(”House Celtigar”; A Wiki of Ice and Fire)
horizon-verizon reblogged
lipsticksontheglass-deactivated
Anonymous asked:
It's probably an unpopular opinion, but sometimes I wish Rhaenyra was really Maegor with Tits. those fools from kingsland and the greens would have thought twice before messing with her
lol at least she would really earn that alias. they called her that because they couldn't stand the idea of a woman on the throne
ladymelisande-deactivated202407
They called Rhaenyra that because of the taxes as far as I remember (because the Lannister rat had taken all the treasury away). But Maegor did all of this and more (and this is what I can remember because I was listening to his chapter yesterday):
- Usurped his nephew.
- Tortured and murdered his other nephew.
- Brutally killed two of his wives.
- Forced his niece to marry him.
- Purged entire houses because he thought his wife had betrayed him.
- Tortured and killed countless of people on false reporting from his wife.
- Burnt the castles and purged many noble houses, the Lords, their families and the people in their charge.
- Killed the men that his other two wives intended and took their kids as hostages.
Rhaenyra didn't even do a single of these things. Hell, not even Daemon did shit like this! People talk of Maegor and how this and this king/queen is like him but do they actually know how much shit he did? Maegor went overboard even for medieval King standards, that's why he was called the Cruel.
lipsticksontheglass-deactivated
yes, yes. (tho i don’t remember if there is a certain event that they started calling her after.) obviously, she wasn’t the best queen but it was a civil war. she hadn’t had a chance to show herself
another one is ‘the whore of dragonstone’. how many man should woman sleep with to be called this? let’s go the with the all rumors: she slept with daemon, cole, harwin, laenor. even with rumors it’s four, not much to be called a whore.
these just show how they hated women. nothing more
I think that the people who call Daemon and Rhaneyra as cruel as Maegor (e.g., Otto Hightower) call them that because they anticipate Rhaenyra and Daemon doing those things in pursuit of gaining power and, in their perspective, usurping the throne from the rightful hands of Alicent's children.
With Maegor, he definitely stole the throne from Aenys' older son, Aegon the Uncrowned, since Aenys seemed to lea more toward his Aegon more than Maegor. There were some speculation about who should inherit the throne--the eldest son or the robust brother to the weak king? Succession laws were true laws and the dynasty was still fresh at the time.
Rhaenyra, however, was definitely seen as heir to Viserys by Viserys himself, in contrast to the Maegor situation, where Maegor was less of a candidate to a succession.
So Rhaenyra can be argued to not have been "stealing" anything by ascending, having far more claim than Maegor ever did. She also had no hand in deciding who was the heir/who will succeed the current king in the first place. That was Viserys, who named her when she was 7 or 8.
And yes, as she grew up, why would she just give up the crown when all her life she expected to ascend, did the work given to her (mostly attend council meetings and learn passively, but there may have been other stuff, we don't get a list)? When several Lords swore in her name? It would be disrespectful against herself, her father, and those Lords for her not to fight for the throne after those vows. I think all of this gives me reason to feel that it would have been cruel for her and her kids to not fight for that throne.
However, Maegor had no business forcing himself on his niece in order to use her body as a breeding site (Rhaenyra had much more room than her, she could say no or yes without violent repercussions), towards Daemon). To all the other stuff, I can actually see Rhaenyra and Daemon doing those things on their bid to reclaim the throne and I think that makes them civil war throne competitors more than abusers like Maegor.
horizon-verizon reblogged
Queen Visenya Targaryen "The Conqueror" with her son, little Prince Maegor Targaryen.
You know....making sacrifices to some Valerian gods or whatever...no big deal.
-crayola watercolors and Prisma color pencils
horizon-verizon reblogged
Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.
The polygamous Maegor had six wives: Ceryse Hightower, Alys Harroway, Tyanna of the Tower, Elinor Costayne, Jeyne Westerling, and his niece Rhaena Targaryen, the last three of whom are known as the Black Brides.
#maegor the cruel#maegor i targaryen#maegor's wives#maegor targaryen#ceryse hightower#tyanna of the tower#alys harroway#elinor costayne#jeyne westerling#rhaena targaryen#asoiaf#asoiaf edit#a song of ice and fire#polygamy#the black brides#fire and blood#rhaena targaryen (aenys' daughter)#jeyne westerling (black bride)
The wedding amidst the ashes
Image Credit: Sofia Golovanova @ ArtStation
“King ruled by three Queens” Image Credit: Sofia Golovanova @ ArtStation