@horizon-verizon / horizon-verizon.tumblr.com
omg that post is so true. the viewers left with the sense that rhaenyra would have chosen harwin even over daemon given the chance, but daemon would have throw laena to caraxes' snout if there were the chance for rhaenyra. the writers didn't know how to balanced both choices from D and R and even L, which was the daughter of two important people within the house targaryen.
I don't think that was what that thread was about, anon.
Daemyras are so violently racist towards Baela, Rhaena and Laena, it baffles me. Sometimes, I’ll be having a good time on the internet or reading a fic, and then I’ll stumble upon something profoundly racist. The racism I've seen is actually turning me off the ship and the characters.
Laena was not Daemon's second choice. He loved her. They were happy, and they had three wonderful children together. They toured Essos together, and he flew to Dragonstone to get Rhaenyra's maester to try to save her life. He loved her deeply, and he mourned her when she passed.
You can love more than one person, and admitting that Daemon loved Laena will not kill you or take away his love for Rhaenyra. Admitting that Baela and Daemon are practically twins will not kill you, it does not take away from the love that he had for Rhaena, Aegon, Viserys and Rhaenyra’s boys. Love is infinite, it can be shared.
I think we can all ask ourselves, even if the showrunners were just so determined to show us that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the romantic heart of the story, why they didn't feel the need to frame Harwin as Rhaenyra's second choice in the same way they did to Laena for Daemon.
I think we can answer it pretty easily.
https://www.tumblr.com/horizon-verizon/746755685313888256/i-wish-yall-would-be-real-as-to-why-rhaenys?source=share
"Also Laena wasn’t sidelined cause of Alicent or Rhaenicent, she was sidelined for Daemyra"
Seriously, people still haven't realized and deny that Laena was marginalized by both ships? Both Rhaenicent and Daemyra are the reason why Laena was reduced the way she was.
The funny thing about people saying that Rhaenicent isn't part of the reason why Laena's character was marginalized and reduced is that both Rhaenicent and Laenyra could have coexisted, but that same logic can be used for Daemon x Laena and Daemyra; both ships could have coexisted, and the writers chose not to.
Both ships harmed Laena's character because the writers wanted to give more importance to Rhaenicent and Daemyra. Had they included Laena, it wouldn't have worked with the writers' vision. You just have to read what the writers say about Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship to realize that the inclusion of Laenyra would have gone against their vision.
Laena was Rhaenyra's best friend and someone she deeply loved, while she despised Alicent. The writers wanted to make Alicent one of the most important people in Rhaenyra's life (according to some of these writers, her first love), and Laenyra would have undermined this. They also marginalized Rhaenyra from other positive relationships with other women to emphasize her friendship with Alicent.
Talked about Daemon & Laena HERE.
I wouldn't say that the very existence of the ships made Laena a sidelined character in HotD, b/c then we'd have to argue that Laenor was "sidelined", Mysaria was "sidelined", Harwin was "sidelined", etc. Laena, like these past lovers, all served a purpose before HotD ever existed and were there of their own reasons surrounding the main couple GRRM wrote to end up together for his narrative. Laena and these people are pretty much the minor characters surrounding the main--Rhaenyra & Daemon and Aegon & Alicent. These are important side characters, but they are side characters. And Daemon was created for Rhaenyra as much as they both and the entire Targ dyansty's stories and personalities were created for Daenerys Stormborn. And a women can have more than one close friend, as long as they match/commiserate well.
I do think the writers' use of Rhaenicent & interpretation of DaemonxLaena diminished Laena's importance in their story. And for their version of Rhaenyra's persona as being Daemon's only love. Because, yes, it makes total sense that Rhaenyra's only female friend or companion for the total of her life was this one girl/woman who doesn't even match well for her or seem to really understand who Rhaenyra really is and rejected it as soon as she could. And Rhaenrya looks that much more impressive to more people in the audience being the "true" center of a person as self-driven as Daemon.
Me, who read F&B before HotD premiered, always felt that Daemon and Rhaenyra would have preferred to get together even though I also think they absolutely loved their respective prior partners. HotD however made this look more like Daemon had nothing good with Laena and never felt for her or loved her as he actually did in canon.
Like I said in the post I linked in that post you linked, Daemon loved Laena in the original telling and I don't say that necessarily bc he fought a duel for her but Daemon is simply not the type to "settle" with someone he doesn't respect or isn't closely blood related to (Rhea Royce) and both had a trait of adventurousness and sense of safety to build a family on.
The issue with Laena's character in HotD was that Daemon was made not to love her, care for her, and seemed to really tire of her presence for the sake of being more focused on being sour over his "disappointments" back at the Red Keep as if he didn't develop a happy life with Laena
AND
with the Velaryons becoming black in HotD/the writers making all sorts of negative changes for them that weren't there in canon and even contradicted some events/traits from canon (I talk about Laena HERE.)
PLUS
[this had to be pointed out to me] Laena's killing herself through dragonfire similar to how fire is historically and fictionally used to "cleanse" specifically "useless", man-less, or "dangerous" poor/PoCwomen (wife burning in some South East cultures but also we can refer to Black women in the American colonies burned for being killing their "masters" or endangering their lives & women in Europe being burned for wirchcraft...Targ women are often looked at as "witches"...Visenya...Vhagar..Laena was Vhagar's rider...)
when in the book she died surrounded by her family and NOT traumatizing her daughters (has soem merit since HotD could have mitigated its sensationalizing of violence against women with Aemma if Laena had died the other way).
Some have argued that to die, willfully, by dragonfire was Laena taking back the agency she lost in the book by dying as she did, unable to get to Vhagar in her last moments. That she at least got to "escapee" from the pain of dying from childbirth.
Aside from the parallels of how fire is used against women in history and fiction, death by fire is not painless or "less" so than most deaths. It's cited as one of the worst. You don't die right away or vaporize, you die slowly. We see in the show that dragonfire can quickly disable and leave horrendous scarring, but it doesn't kill you straight away. It eats at muscles, skin, ligaments until it hits nerves and only then will you stop feeling it, if you aren't already unconscious from the pain. Your eyeballs are literally melting. So she would have actually doubled her pain.
Also, dragonriders don't usually die by fire, nor dragonfire, as we see with the Targs and I think we can reasonably expect from the Old Valyrians, who won their wars against dragonless people more often than not. Rhaenys I/Rhaenys the Conqueror died by falling and probably fire when a scorpion bolt pierced Meraxes' eye by sheer luck. You'd think that by the langauge that HotD makes Laena uses to describe death by dragonfire/fire is a cultural practice meant to honor dragon warriors, but Rhaenys' siblings did not give her death the tone of heroism that implied such a death was culturally coveted & sought after amongst Valyrians as if the but leans more tragedy, so it's likely not something cultural.
Now you might bring up Princess Rhaenys' death, how it was described & implied as a "warrior's" death bc it says she died "amidst blood and fire" to counterargue ("The Red Dragon and the Gold"):
Even if we try to say it was a warrior's death, Laena didn't die during battle. it doesn't count as a true "warrior's" death. Two Rhaenys' did, and even their deaths were received as more tragedies by those around them. there was never an additional element of Valyrian-unique death-by-fire heroism. If anything, it's more an Andal-touched view of things.
I remember how Robert Baratheon also was someone who looked for a death on the battlefield, or at least for a fight. Andal society is a feudal society where war and violence are accepted tools of sociopolitical order or advancement (conquest for materials or defense against outsiders). The Valyrians were not special for war waging in of itself.
The highest valued people are male noble warriors (or just male warriors) bc they are those who are in direct "business" with these activities and are granted them. though we modern Westerners do still retain that element of men being aggressors="manly" men in how we view masculinity, it is also less conceived of as a necessity to obtain resources or as a way towards family glory and honors or reputation. War is more a tool, or more often a tool and self/social order affirming as well as a way to expand one's reach and lands. It comes from the ancient Greek and Roman tradition and perspectives of war that you may see in several Greek and Latin epic poems (Aeneid, Illaid, etc.).
Yes, many men like Rogar Baratheon, Robert Baratheon, Daemon Targaryen, Orys Baratheon, etc., will try to use war or battle to advance themselves, prove a point of power or agency, or feel more like they are in control. Orys, when the family was falling apart, lost his hands to Wyl of Wyl, and he wanted to be more useful to the dynasty so goes to Dorne. Robert, surrounded by the Lannisters who enabled him to have his throne despite his disgust with Cersei. Daemon, isolated from his brother through Viserys's suspicion, to avoid his "duty" to Rhea Royce, but also to prove how much he could contribute to his house without having to do comply with Viserys' way of ruling and trusting Otto. Rogar, to avoid the aftermath of Alyssa Velaryon's death that he was fully responsible for. And for at least 3 on this list alone, there is always a tone of depression, futulity, or desperation to gain or to run away from a loss of masculinity rather than hope and satisfaction and love.
Therefore, when you see Rhaenys dying in "fire and blood" during battle, it's not written (by an Andal maester, remember) just or mainly in lieu of either her Valyrian heritage. It's the Andal talking.
So once again, HotD, puts a character through unnecessary pain and suffering or just "more" than what was told to happen in the book for spectacle and it turned out sexist-dumb and lore-inconsistent. No, this was not unreliably told, as Daemon would have at least had this recorded and the Velaryons certainly would as well. What reason would they have to lie, too? Finally, Rhaenyra was there, holding vigil with Daemon. Princess Rhaenys' death being credibly told, I hope I don't have to explain. Same for Queen Rhaenys'.
I read a post on reddit where it was claimed Laena "tamed" Daemon and that if R&D had married at her 19, it would have been a disaster. They were both allegedly, too chaotic and selfish to be good spouses, and would have turned out miserable and falling out.Funny, because Laena was even younger than Rhaenyra, and even wilder.
Aaand another day in the anti-black anti-Daemon shitshow. “Tamed” lol, when your entire agenda is to be as politically correct as possible and you end up being misogynistic AF.
“Tamed”? As if, there are some women who are supposed to “tame” evil men ? As if a woman can literally change a man and should be responsible for a man. Who TF uses that terminology nowadays?
EDIT: I even forgot the obvious, not only Rhaenyra and Daemon weren’t a “disaster” when Rhaenyra was younger, but Daemon Laena and Rhaenyra were a thriple in the book. Idk, just putting it out here for general knowledge.
now this is the thing: i HATE how they changed everyone from their book counterparts.
show!daemon hated his life in pentos. he was depressed, bored. did not treat laena well. she knew she wasn’t his first choice and rhaenyra was still in his mind and accepted that (disgusting)
i don’t see any proof that laena ‘tamed’ her. he was still pretty selfish. he didn’t listen her to go back to driftmark.
but if we talk about book!daemon, i wouldn’t say ‘she tamed’ but i do think he learned to be a decent man with her, a father and a husband. and yeah, laena was pretty wild too. that’s why rhaenyra, laena and daemon got along well.
after laena died, rhaenyra and daemon married quickly. does this mean they didn’t love her? no, but still it was a selfish act. they were both selfish and chaotic from the beginning to the end. and actually this is the point of their story
I agree. Adding to that, Daemon killed Vaemond without permission from anyone. In front of the court, his wife, Alicent, and their children, and he still boiled over and choked Rhaenyra. (While in the book, Rhaenyra was the one who told him to kill Vaemond for calling her sons bastards and her treasonous.) The show writers & showrunners have made it a point to say that their Daemon will never be a “tamed”, good man converted by the attentions of his perfect female lover.
In fact, Show!Daemon is just a the prime example of a man the writers assert is just inherently evil and unredeemable–one who, as a man has the eternal advantage over any woman of any class or position and who will consistently uses violence against helpless womenn. Especially those who he’s married to or sleeps with because he just be like that. This is the path the writers have for him in their premise that men are always the aggressors against vulnerable women.
As for the throuple situation consistently visiting Laena probably had part of its allure in getting to see Daemon himself, but I also always thought that the idea of Rhaenyra and Laena having either having a strong platonic or sexual/romantic bond was the most wholesome thing ever.
Some would argue that there was no romantic relationship between Laena and Rhaenyra, but I’m open to either circumstance beacuse the book is only ever says that Rhaenyra visited often and became close with Laena, I could see this as a case of “and they were roommates” that historians habitually did to negate the possibility of same-sex relationships.
Or I could see this as them actually just being just friends and that being valid on its own.
After all, because of the vagueness, Daemon’s presence and character, and Rhaenyra already being in a situation where she had a lover outside of marriage (even with that marriage being sexless, she’d be open to a more open arrangement elsewhere) it’s also possible that Laena was fine with a situation where Daemon was intimate with both her and Rhaenyra without her and Rhaenyra being romantic or sexual themselves (another ethically nonmonogamous arrangemnt that used to be called a “V”).
It was one of the only separate events where any of the characters found some personal happiness away from court and the rivalry between the greens and the blacks.
Missed opportunity on the show’s part. One of many.
i myself believe three of them had a romantic or platonic relationship not a sexual one because it’s unlikely rhaenyra to not getting pregnant if something happened between her and daemon. and saying rhaenyra only visited driftmark to see daemon is very disparaging her character for me. obviously laena and rhaenyra’s relationship had some sapphic undertones even if it wasn’t romantic at all (like the thing they push between alicent and rhaenyra in the show)
and that ‘love cannot change a man’s nature’ thing is just stupid to me (i’m sorry lyanna but) yeah like men always will be men specially men who are a part of a misogynist society like westeros. but does it mean they will be always act the same? if daemon wouldn’t change at all he wouldn’t stay 6 years in driftmark and 10 years in dragonstone with his family. nobody would have held him there
ofc these don’t make any sense to ryan condal and sara hess. their feminism is men= bad/abusive, women= naive/victim
It would be disparaging her character to assume Rhaenyra would only visited Laena for Daemon, because it would imply that she was desperate and cruel enough to just use Laena as a road to Daemon. I think that she genuinely saw Laena as one of the closest and most trustworthy persons around her, especially Laena being gender nonconforming, allowing them to have that sapphic bond.
When I mentioned Daemon’s actions in the show, I meant to imply that the reddit user’s thought that he was “tamed” was obviously false because the show itself has been allowing the idea that he hasn’t for the purpose of showing him as the extreme and apparent example of “entitled man negligently hurts his female lovers”. The show itself doesn’t allow for “love changes man’s nature” to the point where he’s a different person altogether. And I also hate this notion that women are eternal victims of men and are just either that or heroic mothers. It’s very flattening and boring because the Alicent has no way of changing into an aspirational figure. If you ask real mothers, I think there would be some who say that it is not even a duty, but a compulsion and reflex to put herself in danger for her kid if they are in danger. And that this is not a “good mother” thing, it is a “parent/guardian” thing. While it may be impressive or something foreign to those who aren’t parents–because it’s is a major shift in priorities and troubles self preservation for a society that encourages self gratification–it’s not that heroic of a thing. It just comes with being a parent and that part is not a determined by gender.
Some people think that Alicent putting herself before Aegon and going after Rhaenyra/Luke was her being determined to defend them and her being the best mother. They think like Otto, who in another scene said to her that he was impressed by her determination to win against Rhaenyra. Both they and Otto have the idea that Alicent’s act there was her actually taking throne to calculate and gain an advantage over Rhaenyra, but it wasn’t. It was her finally expressing her desperation and suppressed frustration with people not following the rules of sexual repression like she has always done. She wants conformity from others so that she can feel that her being used had a purpose other than to satisfy the ambitions of Otto. That she hasn’t wasted her life or that she has been recompensed for her sufferings.
Fire and Blood’s writer both wasn’t there to record what really happened and only sought to record what he thought was important to note and suggest that people should be more open minded to study the possibilities of the situation to be able to even make any conclusions. The reddit user had a take that didn’t even consider how the show wrote it’s characters, let alone how Gyldayn wrote his history and how he wasn’t in a position to hold all of the information, how people reading his history had to take on the role of interpreter and student to make conclusions themselves and debate why their conclusions are right ones. I don’t really know what word to use to describe a situation like this, but I amy also be helping to undermine the possibility of a queer or sapphic storyline myself. I honestly don’t really know. But
you can interpret their relationship in hundreds of different ways. i can say rhaenyra was in love with laena and always went to driftmark to see her not daemon but when laena died she felt alone and made a political marriage with daemon, there was no love. i can say that. and not only me, many people really think it was only a political marriage.
maesters were homophobic also misogynist. they portraid most of the women characters as rivals (even visenya and rhaenys which wasn’t the case at all) if rhaenyra’s main goal was only to see daemon, to have him, there would be lines that indicate that. i don’t think we should add another headcanon to it. the book is already messy and complicated with all that rumors.
You know what, rereading Fire and Blood….
While Princess Rhaenyra misliked her stepmother, Queen Alicent, she became fond and more fond of her good-sister Laena
(pg 378; “A Question of Succession”).
Well, fell into that hole. It’s a nice idea.
What do you think Laena's and Daemon's relationship was?
I've said this before (Post #1 and Post#2 and Post#3), but I think not long after they met & married, they came to love each other platonically and romantically; that his motives for pursuing her were political as well as emotional/romantic/sexual.
Honestly, even in the original canon, the Velaryons lose a lot throughout their connection to the Targs and Corlys' ambition. However, HotD made some decisions that make them look less impressive or intelligent than was needed:
I did not like that we did not get more of Daemon giving her the respect he gave her in F&B concerning her desires to live in Driftmark when she explicitly said that she wanted her kids to grow up in her ancestral home when he himself has been clawing at the bit to live close to his own family...canonically. There is a clear difference in emotional support and care the writers or producers or whoever thought Laena would get from Daemon, and that partially comes from what they think of Daemon and the men of this world but with how they treated the Black characters thus far and with Laena's death, I can't help but see a racial bias at work as well.
(Watsonian) I didn't think that Daemon being more distant with Laena than he was/is w/Rhaenyra was about race while I was watching because in the HotD universe, (not the book or pre-HotD world of ASoIaF/original!) the Velaryons' Blackness does not seem to affect their in-world how other nobles in-world regard them nor the wider cope of prestige the Velaryons canonically had. Racism is not baked against the Velaryons from other houses. It simply isn't there. So "in-text" (text of the show that the writers think they are giving, not the book), Daemon is more distant from Laena bc she wants to live as a free dragon rider while he wants to lick his wounds and feels guilt for still wanting Rhaenyra. Again, this is what the writers tried to convey but fucked up because they wrote against the Velaryons as a whole as well as made Laena's death less emotionally impactful for both Rhaenyra and Daemon by removing the women's friendship.
We need to separate the show from the books, because the Velaryon women have been erroneously and sexistly rewritten. I talk about Laena HERE. And I don't mean that her blackness is the mistake; how they rewrote her relationship to Daemon. We only have their life together in a few scenes of one episodes, first of all, which constricts our understanding or the material for it to one episode that's shared with other characters. I this lone epsiode, we only get to see that despite Laena herself a prod dragonsrider of the dragon his dead father was bonded with and of the rider whose sword he carries, Daemon seem sto treat Laena or regard her more as a nag than a companion. They don't have moments of peace or simply enjoying each other's companies, too, without it going back to their public dragonriding performance, which coincidentally (not really) pushes Laena to try to make Daemon see reason to go back to KL. Meaninwhile, bk!Daemon makes the decisions himself and does what show!Daemon of episode 3 refuses to do and appeal to his brother Viserys so he can move the pregnant bk!Laena to Driftmark so she can do as what show!Laena wanted and have their kids grow up in the place she did. In the show, Daemon is upset and uncommunicative to his own daughter both before and after LAena dies, and some people argue that he's just too upset with the prospect of Rhaena not having had a hatched egg in infancy...meanwhile, not only does Daemon himself only bond with Caraxes until he's 16, MOST Targaryens/Targ-descents bond with a dragon in ther preteens to even adulthood! There's no reason for show!Daemon to feel as he does towards Rhaena.
And the show changing Daemon hugging his daughters to him just leaving them to cry is such a clear attempt to recharacterize Daemon and his relationships to his family a something much more dysfunctional than it was to coincidentally match deadbeat dad energy...bc apparently Daemon cannot feel as close connections to his black family as he can his white ones (Viserys and Rhaenyra)? that's the conclusion you very much can go to, since the writing simply makes no sense when we think abt the actual lore. "Oh, it's so hard for him bc he had all these grand ideas about dragonrider legacy and Rhaena not making her egg hatch messed that up"...I've had to listen to people claim that Daemon was not ignoring or mistreating Rhaena through neglect...I'm sorry but this makes bad parenting, NOT being a uwu babygirl! Your children should not have to experience emotional withdrawal from a disappointed parent and be left to feel as if you are the issue.
And yes, show!Daemon makes Rhaena feel like she is the issue bc if we say that he was disappointed that she's not a "proper" dragonrider, we are saying that he's not the issue, she is! We're more concerned about how Daemon's prospects are not aligning how he wants them instead of how he's performing his fatherly duties. We're practically encouraging deadbeat dadism, and why? Meanwhile, people get on about Rhaenyra beign a bad mom bc she "allowed" her sons to be born WHILE SIMULTAENOUSLY sayinf she shouldn't have left KL for Dragonstone even though she clearly wanted a better life for her and her sons away from Alicent's attempts to denigrate their positions at court. Fostering a more negative environment for those boys. Sure....
Why all this change, and towards the negative?! And why do so many fans love it so much?! I am a Daemyra fan, but really, I don't need Daemon to hate every women he's married to for the sake of the ship. The ship, to me, stands on its own. And GRRM confirms it many times. If you need a ship to be discriminatory (in terms of making its adapted version more fraught with discord), then you probably have some bigoted shit or ideas about relationships to work through. Or the ship itself is logically unfeasible even with all the fanons made for it, and you are desperate to make up for it.
I think that along with the racism that just "automatically" governing the reasoning for the writers in regards to the Velaryons, they also wanted to make Daemyra that much more central for marketing value. The hot OTP couple made even hotter for all our consumerist needs.
That being said, I read F&B before the show existed. The changes I mentioned above (apart form the Velaryons becoming black) didn't need to exist at all. Laena and Daemon of canon had their own secure, unique, and charming relationship.
At the same time, while I do very much believe that Daemon and Laena loved each other (I already gave an example of him writing to Viserys above) before the show, I never thought Daemon fell in love with Laena or first pursued her for her personality and bearing alone. Similar to how he loved Rhaenyra and her him for some ideas of their political roles.
After they marry, they spend a year together traveling and in the next year, they stay at Pentos for Laena to give birth and to take care of their twins before going back to Westeros-Driftmark, where they eventually build a life with Rhaenyra for the rest of their marriage (1-2 years). In all, they were married for 4 or so years.
I believe that with Laena, Daemon became a real father of action and practice and settled; Laena lived her happiest, freest days. But as I said in this post about him maybe marrying and fucking Rhaenyra not long after Laena's death--just from the biased, unforthcoming, short, undetailed account of people who were not there to witness Daemon-Laena at Pentos and the rest of Essos...they canonically did not seem to have quite the same potency--that je nais se quois--for each other as much as Laena had for their kids and Vhagar/dragon-riding and Daemon for the Targ-Valyrian heritage, their kids, Viserys, and Rhaenyra. However, we don't get a lot of detail/as much detail as even the already -not-very-elucidated relationship b/t Daemyra for Laena x Daemon in-text, so make of that what you will. 🤷🏻♀️
Again, could just be the fault of lack of access to them as they lived and traveled. It easily could just be that Daemon was very loving and affectionate and attentive to her, and by his letter to Viserys it very much seemed so. (I am one of those who believes that Rhaenyra also really loved Harwin...it's just that Daemon was what she had in her heart for years until both of their deaths, she could live her own version of a freer life with Daemon [she could never be "out" with Harwin and she wasn't keen on giving up her throne], they were well matched, and it wouldn't take much for her to settle into a life with him.)
I think Daemon was sexually attracted to Laena in the beginning, liked she was a dragon rider like himself and thus could pass on that legacy and ability to their kids, got to know her and liked her, and her being of close family blood and a Velaryon and made the whole thing sweeter. At the same time, I just never thought of Laena/Harwin being those people Daemon or Rhaenrya choosing to be with if they had that freer choice. Even though it reads as the "healthiest" to some people for Daemon--Harwin for Rhaenyra. Yeah, it works for you and what you want for the characters/people in general, but what about who these characters are (as long as no one is being abused, and no one was in the orig Daemyra)?!
They had met for only a few weeks tops? I mean lightning strikes and rarities and all that, it's possible he did fall in love or develop limerence or whatever for Laena in this period of time. She, him? Sure. But...it certainly doesn't hurt that he, as a Targ, manages to bring the Velaryons closer to his family through his marriage and I don't think this was far from his head when he planned what he planned with Corlys.
I think Daemon fought for her/killed her betrothed because:
Some of these could be bonafide plans and intentions...some or all could be thoughts and strong feelings as he acts or circles in his mind as he interacts with various Velaryons.
Reasons 1, 2, & 4 are enough to explain why Daemon would feel "passionate" about winning Laena's hand and killing her betrothed. He doesn't really care about people outside of the family he recognizes nor about what people outside of his even smaller circle think about him as long as it fulfills his purposes. His reputation as a fearsome, unpredictable wild card serves him, and he got it by not adhering to much Andal-Westerosi mores of behavior and restraint or caring what people thought of such behavior as long as it didn't blow back hard against Viserys or Rhaenyra. His willingness to kill: setting up an army for Viserys before the Council ever happened, his "work" in the Stepstones, his brutal handling of the accused rapists, thieves, and killers in KL while being Commander of the City Watch. Why wouldn't he kill Laena's betrothed even if he didn't "love" her at first sight if he expected and observed what I already listed above?
Getting criticized for killing him is not enough of a hypothetical deterrent for Daemon in his considerations to marry Laena or not.
The Sealord's son had even less connection to any Westerosi house by the time his Sealord father died and he himself started to drain his own family's funds for stupid stuff. Daemon was willing to butcher and maim several people in KL in the name of the King's "peace" and he got some flack for it; even though those KL people were commoners versus the Sealord's son having been of nobler birth, the Sealord's son wasn't favored or very familiar amongst those at Driftmark...at least positively. We have to remember that in the negotiation w/Corlys, Corlys likely gave the okay or would have to be okay with Daemon killing this guy, which may give Daemon (for what little trepidation he may have had) more incentive to say "Let's do it" and expect even less backlash or criticism from others. If he made other nobles' criticism/side-eye/disapproval the only or primary consideration to kill or not kill the Braavosi guy, then their observance of how Corlys allowed Daemon to marry his daughter with little to no protest (in lieu of their suspicions of Daemon being ambitious for himself) would also be good enough for Daemon to "risk" actual practical disadvantages in killing this guy. If Corlys doesn't care, they have less right to protest--because he, the house leader and lord under whom both the son and Daemon were receiving guest rights--allowed it (asked for it in some theories) and there was no backup from Braavos for this same son of a Sealord. Daemon instigated the conflict between him and the son by insulting the kid many times for him to "defend his honor" and walk into getting killed. And it was definitely on purpose because it was still a fight that would have been recognized as a real duel because it was about keeping one's honor and public respect. There didn't seem to be actual laws against or for duels from the monarchy at any time in Westerosi history, which means that the only sort of enforcement or limitations or punishments for duels & their results were the local lord's allowance, whether the men followed through, public opinion, and the host lord's powers.
Kinda like how Daemon and Rhaenyra married so soon after Laena's death, Daemon dueling this Braavosi kid was considered in extremely poor taste. It certainly made more/others fear him, but also a part of this feudalist social fabric of militarism and machismo AND Daemon, in my view, likely would have been fine/indifferent to glad of it because he wants to make others think twice before going against him and the other Targs or immediate family.
While he would have known of Laena before he met her 23-yr old self, I don't think they hung out enough before for him to suddenly want her for her. Again, the guy places his closest family above all, and while Laena is his cousin's child:
Therefore, all people could really do is talk about a guy they already either loved or feared. And that they were concerned with how Daemon, in their suspicions, messed around with the preconditions of a duel by purposefully killing this Braavosi for his own gain and without fear of getting reproached for messing with said "rules". What was there to fear, for Daemon and from his perspective?
But again, I think this was all a blip to Daemon when he was thinking and planning on marrying Laena.
It's possible that Daemon would rather not induce make Viserys blow all the way up by marrying Laena Viserys' reaction. However, they already had a contentious relationship after Daemon did whatever he did with Rhaenyra, which Viserys likely saw as a power grab for Daemon's sake alone. Because Viserys ruined Daemon's chance to have his first son with Mysaria.
But actually, marrying Laena brings the Velaryons more into the fold while Daemon has his little "revenge" against Viserys for a bit by marrying Laena. Viserys allow them back quite easily.
Why? Corlys and the Velaryons and Viserys need to be on their good side for his own reputation, that fake "harmony" he thinks is necessary to hold the dynasty together, peace of mind (Rhaenys being passed over and Corlys still being likely salty about it), and Rhaenyra's support. Their marriage was Corlys' decision. Viserys also can't really protest against the marriage as much as the Sealord's son being killed.
On the one hand, their songs or claims about Daemon falling instantly in love with Laena at first sight and wanting her for her could be an amplification or an exaggeration of the observable, genuine attraction he had for her. Because it's not what they or what his reputation allows them to imagine from him.
Or it could be a way for these singers to spread the news of Daemon's "changed"/"changing ways" by Corlys to give/amplify this marriage a veneer of sentimentality and diminish whatever outrage against it, a way to diminish the suspicions of this being a typical political allowance. We remember that singers and bards often entertained local lords at dinners and gatherings and wrote songs in their honor or whomever they thought would get them in good with the lord and any/particular ones in the future. "The Rains of Castamere" was definitely, at least, encouraged by Tywin Lannister to add and build his own reputation. And such was the practice of real-life troubadours of medieval France/Normandy and bards of other Western/Italian regions.
Could be both.
I do also find it a nice narrative contrast to observe RhaenyraxDaemon versus LaenaxDaemon in how well-reported the respective emotional connections were. Daemyra has more suggestive pieces while Laena and Daemon have the singers and Daemon's reaction to Laena dying (more explicit pieces).
Because of the personalities they had and their going well together, they definitely grew closer after they married.
The way Daemon carried her to her bed and was distraught after her death seems enough to show how much he cared. He also quickly wrote to Viserys directly so he could safely move back to Westeros after they had their dragon twins. And they definitely flew together both in Essos and Westeros. These are the things explicitly said about him and Laena in canon and they imply great care, interest, and respect. Which indicates and proves his love for her.
At the same time, I also think that Daemon still desired & yearned for Rhaenyra in all of his marriage to Laena. Marriages don't cancel out long-time deep connections and attractions to others, esp when they start out political. That would take time and maybe some personality changes.
Like how some theorize Ned loving Ashara Dayne and wanting to marry her then moving on with Catelyn, Ned totally and surely reorient themselves to love their new spouse for the sake of their future happiness and because they genuinely see their spouses' qualities, but it's not a guarantee and takes TIME. Ned is not Daemon, who not only is more willful but is also a proud Targ prince of emotion who's been suspected of trying to kill/undermine his own family for power for years.
Big unpopular opinion - I really dislike the saying, "Laena tamed the rogue prince," especially the people who still use that saying for show daemon. They had viserys say, "daemon and rhaenyra share the blood of the dragon they are restless and chaotic" and I feel like that goes for both book/show daemon and rhaenyra and it really describes daemon perfectly. I love daemon and Laena's relationship especially book version but I wouldn't describe it as she "tamed him" it gets worse when i see the nettles and daemon shippers say the same thing that nettles "tamed daemon"
I dislike it as well, since it makes Daemon seem more an animal than a human AND in the show we see Daemon broken or worn down by his separation from Rhaenyra and his dreams of Targ dragonriding glory, himself driving that glory for his house.
He wasn’t tamed, he seemed to lose a huge chunk of drive. Canonically, you could say Laena gave Daemon room to really indulge and explore his tenderer side, thus his leeway and becoming a father. But he never actually lost his quintessential "fire". Like Harwin for Rhaenyra, she gave him emotional safety.
The idea that anyone can be "tamed" through a relationship comes from people looking at the oversimplified or just misunderstood stories adapting from the tale of Beauty and the Beast archetype (not Disney; ATU 425 “Animal as Bridegroom”: ). Tales where a woman “taming” the bestial, undesirable behavior of a man or removing those qualities that the audience/society does not want or list as taboo.
Here is a description of “Animal as Bridegroom” (the super category) indexed as “The Search for the Lost Husband” in ATU:
refers to a group of folk and fairy tales about a human woman marrying or being betrothed to an animal. The animal is revealed to be a human prince in disguise or under a curse.
“Animal as Bridegroom” [ATU 425A]:
In folktales classified as tale type ATU 425A, "The Animal as Bridegroom", the maiden breaks a taboo or burns the husband's animal skin and, to atone, she must wear down a numbered pair of metal shoes.
“Son of the Witch (The Witch's Tasks)” [ATU 425B]:
This category of tales involves the heroine performing difficult tasks for her husband's family (more specifically, her mother-in-law). In this type, the heroine reaches the house of a witch (sometimes, her mother-in-law; sometimes, another female relative of her husband), where she works as her servant. One of the tasks is to go to another witch's house, and fetch from there a box, a casket, a bag, a sack of something that her husband warns not to open, but she does.
And “Beauty and the Beast” [ATU 425C]
Zipes summarized the tale thus: the third or youngest daughter asks her father (a merchant or king) for a gift (bird or flower). The only place he can find such a trifle is the garden of the beast or monster, who demands the merchant/king's daughter in return. Richard MacGillivray Dawkins, in turn, remarked that the heroine's sisters asked their father for material possessions (e.g., dresses), whereas she asks for a simple token that will lead her to the enchanted prince.
Uther remarks that this type contains the "presents for the daughters", lacking, however, a quest for the lost spouse.
But GRRM tends to subvert tales, not retell them 1:1, and we see it in Sansa’s story of always being paired with the conventionally unattractive, bestialized man.
And the idea, when focusing on how there is taming, is very metaphorically murderous. Check out rhaenyragendereuphoria’s post HERE.
Have you ever heard about colour wheel theory of love? I think that Daemyra is a mix of eros and storge, while Daemon/Laena were eros+pragma.
Okayyy I haven't heard of this at all nonnie. But I looked it up because I got intrigued by the use of greek words here. So let's play the game.
Apparently this is the wheel of love, a theory by a Canadian psychologist named John Alan Lee. I read that according to this theory there are three primary types of love (Eros, Storge, Ludus) and three secondary types of love (Mania, Pragma, Agape) that are the combinations of the primary types.
Eros means romantic love. Storge in greek means affection, tenderness, here Lee considers that the kind of love friends have. Ludus is Latin, it means game, so playful love.
Mania in greek means madness I guess? It's an obsessive love (combination of Eros and Ludus). Pragma means thing, creature, act, that's the convenient love (combination of Ludus and Storge). And then Agape in greek just means love in its purest form, the altruistic love (combination of Eros and Storge).
So by principle, these are the main types. You either have one of the primary types, or a combination of the primary types, which gives you a secondary type. If you say that Daemon and Rhaenyra are a mix of Eros and Storge, that gives as Agape, and it makes sense, but I definitely think that in the beginning there was some Mania there (Eros and Ludus, desire and playfulness and obsession, it's very Daemyra coded no?). For Laena and Daemon Eros and Pragma don't work, it's not a combination, so I would say Ludus and Storge (affection and friendship), which would give us Pragma, the convenient love. So all in all, Mania and Agape for Daemyra, Pragma for Laena and Daemon.
After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil. She was but twenty-seven. During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed, pushed away the septas praying over her, and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar that she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died. Her husband, Prince Daemon, carried her back to her bed.
Drawing sad scenes is the worst :(
I read a post on reddit where it was claimed Laena "tamed" Daemon and that if R&D had married at her 19, it would have been a disaster. They were both allegedly, too chaotic and selfish to be good spouses, and would have turned out miserable and falling out.Funny, because Laena was even younger than Rhaenyra, and even wilder.
Aaand another day in the anti-black anti-Daemon shitshow. "Tamed" lol, when your entire agenda is to be as politically correct as possible and you end up being misogynistic AF.
"Tamed"? As if, there are some women who are supposed to "tame" evil men ? As if a woman can literally change a man and should be responsible for a man. Who TF uses that terminology nowadays?
EDIT: I even forgot the obvious, not only Rhaenyra and Daemon weren't a "disaster" when Rhaenyra was younger, but Daemon Laena and Rhaenyra were a thriple in the book. Idk, just putting it out here for general knowledge.
now this is the thing: i HATE how they changed everyone from their book counterparts.
show!daemon hated his life in pentos. he was depressed, bored. did not treat laena well. she knew she wasn’t his first choice and rhaenyra was still in his mind and accepted that (disgusting)
i don’t see any proof that laena ‘tamed’ her. he was still pretty selfish. he didn’t listen her to go back to driftmark.
but if we talk about book!daemon, i wouldn’t say ‘she tamed’ but i do think he learned to be a decent man with her, a father and a husband. and yeah, laena was pretty wild too. that’s why rhaenyra, laena and daemon got along well.
after laena died, rhaenyra and daemon married quickly. does this mean they didn’t love her? no, but still it was a selfish act. they were both selfish and chaotic from the beginning to the end. and actually this is the point of their story
Daemon killed Vaemond with Corlys' implied permission. In front of the court, his wife, Alicent, and their children, he still boiled over and choked Rhaenyra. The show writers & showrunners have made it a point to say that their Daemon will never be a “tamed”, good man converted by the attentions of his perfect female lover.
In fact, Show!Daemon is just a the prime example of a man the writers assert is just inherently evil and unredeemable–one who, as a man has the eternal advantage over any woman of any class or position and who will consistently uses violence against helpless womenn. Especially those who he’s married to or sleeps with because he just be like that. This is the path the writers have for him in their premise that men are always the aggressors against vulnerable women.
As for the throuple theory: on Rhaenyra's end, consistently visiting Laena probably first had part of its allure from getting to see Daemon more, but for her to fly often with her, for the text to say their relationship became "more than fond", and for her to make their kids marry when they get older strikes me as them developing a very strong bond between themselves. So I also think that the idea of Rhaenyra and Laena having either a strong platonic or sexual/romantic bond was the most wholesome thing ever. It also indicates a stronger matrifocality or a peek into feudal people bonding through their mothers' bond and women directing the family's future interactions but much stronger. [post linked by rhaenyragendereuphoria]
Some would argue that there was no romantic relationship between Laena and Rhaenyra, but I’m open to either circumstance bc the book only ever says that Rhaenyra visited often and became close with Laena. I could see this as a case of “and they were roommates” that historians habitually did to negate or reduce the very possibility of same-sex relationships. Or I could see this as them actually just being friends and that being valid on its own. Straight women are very capable of forming very close bonds outside of male interference or male accommodation.
Also, because of the simple and not-so-detailed description, Daemon’s presence and character, and Rhaenyra already being in a situation where she had a lover outside of marriage (even with that marriage being sexless, she’d be open to a more open arrangement elsewhere) it’s also possible that Laena was fine with a situation where Daemon was intimate with both her and Rhaenyra or one where she was a part of it and Rhaenyra being romantic or sexual by themselves (another ethically nonmonogamous arrangement that can called a “V” thing). With the information presented, all are valid possibilities.
Missed opportunity on the show’s part. One of many.
daemon targaryen and laena velaryon somewhere in pentos <3
Daemon duels the Sealord’s son Artwork by Tomasz Jedruszek
The singers would claim that Daemon fell instantly in love, but at court it was speculated that his interest in Laena was more one of ambition, given how far he had fallen down the line of succession. By marrying Laena, he would bind himself to the wealthy and influential House Velaryon. The only difficulty was that Laena had been betrothed for the past decade to a son of the Sealord of Braavos—though that young man had turned out to be a spendthrift, drunken fool, and Lord Corlys had repeatedly delayed the marriage. Daemon solved the problem by provoking his rival into a duel. Wielding Dark Sister, Daemon killed his rival with ease and two weeks later was married to Laena. After this, he would never return to his kingdom on the Stepstones again.
