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@horizon-verizon / horizon-verizon.tumblr.com

she/her -- ASoIaF Enthusiast -- (I will be changing the title of this blog frequently just because I want to)
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Anonymous asked:

Jonerys is an inherently unequal ship, it undermines Daenerys’ entire arc if she’s subjugated into the role of the broodmare and submissive wife. It’s insane how most self professed Jonerys shippers don’t get this. The ship as it exists in the fandom is propagated through a male-centered lens.

Having a shared reign is implausible. Not to get ahead but she will face the fear of being usurped by Jon at the behest of lords. How many times will Daenerys be undermined politically, for the basis of her gender, to understand ? They’re regurgitating the mad queen rhetoric.

It’s like none of them paid attention to how GRRM carefully goes through mistakes in Daenerys’ reign in ADWD to set her up to correct those mistakes in the future. Hizdahr was one of those mistakes. She is not going to repeat that mistake with anyone, even Rhaegar’s son.

Well a lot of Jonerys shippers have faith that Jon either won't pose any danger by giving up something huge to be with her OR that his stuff as they are are enough for him to give Dany what she needs or to protect and advocate for her. That's what I have gleaned.

I do wonder what the counterarguments for the idea that Dany would be a broodmare/submissive wife is on the Jonerys shipper side, but I doubt I will have it here. Suffice to say, it seems so unlikely that Jon either would and could give up what he has for her entirely if you wanted to make Jonerys work in Dany's political favor.

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Anonymous asked:

Many dudebros like comparing Jon to Jaehaerys, and the idea of Daenerys ending up like Alysanne is extremely heartbreaking, horrifying and devastating to me. All those gains dissolved for what, a trad romance ? No thank you. Unless he willingly abdicates his claim and is her consort, I will continue to see Jonerys as misogynistic and as an active threat to Daenerys’ safety, future, happiness, and political values. And I hope her people make her wary of him too. The time for her to be sweet and yielding with men is over.

Daenerys as a character represents the dissolution of gendered binaries by being both king and queen, khal and khaleesi, prince and princess. To wish for that to be rendered irrelevant just for the sake of Jon, of all people, is maddening. I don’t equality or co-rulers or king consort, he must be the PRINCE consort and Daenerys must be his regnant and the sole authority.

And the narrative has made it pretty clear that Daenerys trying to rule as an equal with a king is dangerous for her. Hizdahr Zo Loraq is the textual proof of that. So too are potential consorts like Quentyn, Cleon the Butcher, Victarion, Euron, and Young Griff.

If people can see that Young Griff is a misogynist who wants to use Daenerys claim to bolster his own, the fanciful and wishful, antifeminist thinking that Jon will be “one of the good ones” is insane to me. No man is one of the good ones, and the only way to ensure that Daenerys succeeds is to ensure that the man she marries has ZERO political ambition or claim to the Iron Throne and obey her in every way. End of story.

I think that the desire to see Jon--as he is instead of a potential Prince Consort (no, not even "King Consort", such a thing can never be a thing in Westeros as it is and Dany is trying to claim Westeros not some fantasy of Westeros)--show himself as "one of the good ones" is pretty incompatible with how Jon's been murdered and brought back, bc he's going to be very different from the already not-revolutionary-rily-written male character that he is.

I also think that the only way they could ever be a "safe" couple--or as close as it gets--is if Jon has literally no way to access authority or his claim in any way. Does it sound extreme, well...women have been in that position for thousands of years in Westeros and rulership in Westeros can only change in its gender dynamics if the society has a greater shift in all other houses. You know when you have to go ham sometimes on men to get them to leave you alone or to see your side of things, think of this on a macro level: yes, you need to "match" the inequality in this specific context of rulership in order for people to be forced to see women as viable rulers. Which can't happen without there being a female regnant ruler...Dany.

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Anonymous asked:

I think if GRRM really want to be truly subversive with Daenerys’ arc, pairing her with Jon is very negative and regressive, because it destroys the work of gender subversion and reversal and reconstruction and shifts her arc back to status quo heterosexuality. I want her to have children. The daughter of dragons, mother of dragons, bride of fire, daughter of death, slayer of lies, and breaker of shackles, the prince that was promised, Aegon the Conqueror with teats, was created for greater things than being some man’s soulmate. I want her to have children but NOT with Jon.

*distant chants as all put down their iPads* cut them off, cut them off, Cut Them Off, CUT THEM OFF!

Again, all, this is lieu of the recent anons arguing that Jon is the most dangerous candidate (aside from Euron Greyjoy) Dany could have as a husband and even just an unmarried romantic partner because of the baggage of his lineage that could present huge issues for her attempts to claim the Iron Throne, even if he was never seen or made to be legitimate. And anon brings up sexuality and Dany regressing back to a destructive heterosexuality when it's Jon I THINK (plz correct me if I am wrong) Jon is very typical of a heterosexual man even with his repeated preference for behaviorally nonconforming women AND his maybe-crush on Satin in that he stands to gain so much more from being with Dany and may likely demand more form her than she can and from him for his political goals and she already will have to deal with how the Westerosi will work against her. Why hetero when she has relationships with Hid Loraq (not really) and Daario (yep)? Because Loraq proved having a male ruling "equal" was dangerous for Dany while Daario was not any sort of equal, ruler, or competitor for authority, and Jon being closer to such than both of these men through his lineage and having lived as a sort of higher authority while having done what a lot of Dany fans have not seen as sacrificing something for a woman & sublimating himself presents a likely development into a fantasy-conventional-power-man using a powerful woman's assets to become more powerful...very much a power fantasy favored within the patriarchy that uses heterosexuality to subjugate women..

Her having a child adds a whole other sort of layer it bc another pressure is patriarchal systems trapping women or binding her materially and psychologically to the father. Which is what I am assuming why this anon wants Dany to never have a kid with Jon, which, fair. Perhaps anaon, you also think that a child from DanyxJon would also still endanger Dany? If so, and only if so, please explain, I think iI heard this arguement before and I haven't really understood it.

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Anonymous asked:

Jonerys isn’t projected to be that equal ship that shippers fantasise about. Jon being the Lord Commander of an exploitative institution, and later the KITN, versus Daenerys whose power derives from risk, struggle, pain, and liberation. There’s an inherent power imbalance in their dynamic. It’s clear that their first conversation will be based on their respective roles in the Long Night and how her dragons, who were bravely born from her sacrifice and weren’t awarded to her solely based on her lineage, will be used. It’s not as if Daenerys will use Ghost as a plausible defence against the Others, right ?

Daenerys doesn’t rely on an establishment, her name, exploitation etc. to gain power, she earns it throughout her journey. Her attainment is risky and dissuaded by many people in her arc. How is this comparable to Jon, a traditional fantasy male hero ?

I heard a counterclaim that Jon also earns his position through merit or/and he also goes through some hardships. All this talk made me realize something ironic: Jon took a risk, was killed for it while Dany takes many risks and has been kinda forced out of Meereen but at no point have we seen any hint towards her death. Both are going through a sort of rebirth or restoration metaphorically, but for Dany there has been...more of that even with Jon having gone through a literal resurrection...but not by his own hands.

The last sentence about her so far is a cliff hanger but there's no indication that she is in any danger and, once again, she'sgotten out of what could have been a sticky situation by a mixture of luck-but-mostly-quick thinking...despite going gone through many hallucinations and losing a lot of water simultaneously before and during that incident. Despite the debate, I don't hate Jon, but I can't really see him as an "equal" of character or strength to Dany. And I think that's okay.

Ultimately and personally, when it comes to the appeal of Jonerys or find it viable long term in-world, the only way I can like is if:

A) it's NEVER publicly or accidentally revealed he's Rhaegar's bastard son [there's no way Rhaegar married Lyanna and even if he did, it would be an invalid marriage bc that tradition--unlike sib marriage--has long been abandoned and would need a concerted agreement b/t the Westerosi secular and religious authorities like with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism...and there is no such thing in Westerosi that would for Rhaegar's supposed second marriage...not even Dany would do that]

OR

B) Jon has to vocally, loudly, by written word, etc. give up every single position of power outside of the Lord Commander, renounce his or claim that some in-world would claim he has, execute off those who try PUBLICLY--which I don't think is likely bc he's the reason why the free folk even care to align themselves with any "southron" folk, the last could alienate a lot of groups or houses, AND there is a need for the unity even barring speculation over whether Jon himself would want to give up power.

But I shall keep an open mind for WoW...even that that shit is, atp, never going to appear.

I am not neutral, I think that so far we don't have much to go on for why this ship wouldn't be politically damaging for Dany and her cause. Neither am I going to set myself up for rage for if GRRM somehow decides to make them a thing. It's simply hard for me to imagine them--IN WORLD--making it.

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Anonymous asked:

One thing I have noticed is how Jon’s stans want him to have this really powerful bond with Daenerys’ dragons but I have NEVER seen them talk that way about Daenerys and Ghost. You’ll see Stark fans theorize or make fanfiction/fanart of the Starks having her dragons or being part of the Three Heads or taking Daenerys’s prophecies but you’ll never see anyone claim Daenerys will warg Ghost or another direwolf. I couldn’t care less about the direwolves but I found that quite interesting.

Jonerys is all about co-opting Daenerys’ Targaryen identity for Jon. Or make it seems like they are both leaders, when in reality what Daenerys is doing in Essos, in Meereen, just stomps on EVERYTHING Jon does (did since he’s dead, murdered by his own men, lmao). It’s just just about giving Jon access to Daenerys’ dragons and groundbreaking accomplishments & storyline. Ship trash as hell, by shipping them (or pretending to because they are quick to throw Daenerys under the bus, they just want to use her as a self insert), Jon’s stans can elevate him through Daenerys.

From what I have also seen of the most of the Jon stanning Jonerys shippers so far, I must agree. Part of it is that in real life, men also can't be much of anything professionally nor domestically without leaching off of their female partners and family members, so of course we have people do the same with fictional characters. Apparently in the U.S. men are more likely to get promotions and shit when they have children or get married or even just move in with a woman whereas it's the reverse for women. Still, bc it's tacitly expected the woman would be the one performing much domestic labor and birthing children that "depend" on the man's income. You'd think BOTH would get the promo for the household to get even more $, but nah...bc women are the main consumers but also the expected ones to consistently consume products for their households, children, etc.

Aside from Nymeria and Ghost--the dogs themselves, but in the case of Nym, the relationship w/Arya, I am in anticipation of seeing again in the books--the direwolves of ASoIaF don't really intrigue me all that much. And it could be bc we haven't gone anywhere away form Bran using Summer to warg AND I don't see how they'd be involved with the coming war to this day.

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I'm not quite sure where this is coming from — I have written Jonerys fic myself as a Jon stan and

Perhaps then anon is talking about the majority or the most "vocal" of Jon stans. I also could have also pointed that out, but we're here now.

Other than that, I believe that the discussion is in the specific line of what exactly Jon can bring to Dany's table that would BOTH not negatively affect her claim or her safety in the long run and is truly "equal" in terms of valence (as another ask, from the beginning one HERE, says Jon stans & Jonerys shippers claim while counterarguing there being no "equality" of power b/t Dany and Jon). Because a direwolf is not exactly in the same region as a dragon for the Long night, at least as I have been able to tell from the books alone. I know they will have some sort of role...but equal to the necessity of dragons?

Other comments thus far:

Or we're talking about Jon-as-leader and Dany-as-leader, Jon impressing Dany, etc. as reasons why a possible Jonerys reality is good or appealing. Circling back to the anons who dislike Jonerys as a ship in the universe itself and not just in fandom (bc when we talk abt shipping there is a difference), they specifically do not ship bc they say they see a pattern (and not something that is 100%, through and through the entire fandom but large enough to be a problem that indicates something sinister) of people shipping Jonerys and believing Jon's parentage wouldn't present a huge problem for Daenerys in Westeros and her trying to reclaim the throne even if he doesn't want or pursue the throne as Daemon Blackfyre and Aegon II did. OR doing it while speculating that Jon should and is entitled to Dany's dragons, resources, time, energy, etc. OR claiming that he, rather than her, is the PTWP and/or AA. Which troubles me and the anon(s), because that is a part of a yrs-long trend of people trying to relegate Dany back to material used up for man's rise or just be diminished. AND these points are on the basis that the extentuating political circumstances surrounding Jon vs Dany's claims--more than these individuals' wills--make them incompatible and set up a dangerous thing for Dany.

Then that raises a question: just bc there maybe a negative trend like so, does that mean that it is impossible to except a peaceable ship b/t such characters, see such a thing in-universe, against this particular fandom's trend? Are they compatible bc of their being competent leaders, or just set up to clash bc of their lineages presenting issues for their hold on their respective positions and future goals?

And I think it's unfair to assume that the person has gotten the idea from the show or Reddit when they were strictly speaking about book circumstances...even referring to F&B's characters and the significance of why the Dance matters to Dany, when HotD actually bungled up that connection even with 2x07(?) Daemon-visions it not true that Aegon II usurping Rhaenyra sets up a visible and recognizable trend in Westeros for males a leaders? Have we seen anything like Rhaenyra or Dany after Rhaenyra's fall/before Dany? Have we not seen how Westerosi react to "foreign" people in power through the lords reaction to Daeron II instilling Dornish people in court and offices of power so much so that many decided to back Dameon Blackfyre? Does this conflict have a show adaptation?

In fact, I'd argue that it is after GoT that many (not all, but somehow it's mostly a Jon, Sansa stan?) Jon stans have introduced and argued for why Dany's dragons should somehow go towards Jon's success. That after the show and GoT's Dany's femicide, it was mostly weird Jon stans arguing such.

Yes they are both young leaders...the anons are saying that the circumstances of how they retain and gain power, not how attractive the other is to the other, spells trouble for Dany's prospects. And I think that is fair, bc yes these issues have to be adderessed before any hope of Jonerys can happen in-world. Anon argues that it would never be a nonthreat to Dany and cites book-suggested evidence. So I'd like to hear book-supported evidence for why people think Jonerys is safe for Dany before they argue for how "out of touch" the Jonerys-anti is and not just dismiss them.

  1. Why do you think Jonerys is "unbalanced"/"balanced" or "equals" at all? And how are you defining or what are you constituting as "balance", what components are "equal" and why/how?
  2. How/why do you think Jon brings "as much" to the "table" or has "enough" to match what Dany could do for him? And please refer to the ask that began all of this to try to counterargue their own arguments as to how he doesn't and can never.
  3. How do you think Dany will take Jon participating in the selling of dissidents or what have you as slaves?
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Anonymous asked:

One thing I have noticed is how Jon’s stans want him to have this really powerful bond with Daenerys’ dragons but I have NEVER seen them talk that way about Daenerys and Ghost. You’ll see Stark fans theorize or make fanfiction/fanart of the Starks having her dragons or being part of the Three Heads or taking Daenerys’s prophecies but you’ll never see anyone claim Daenerys will warg Ghost or another direwolf. I couldn’t care less about the direwolves but I found that quite interesting.

Jonerys is all about co-opting Daenerys’ Targaryen identity for Jon. Or make it seems like they are both leaders, when in reality what Daenerys is doing in Essos, in Meereen, just stomps on EVERYTHING Jon does (did since he’s dead, murdered by his own men, lmao). It’s just just about giving Jon access to Daenerys’ dragons and groundbreaking accomplishments & storyline. Ship trash as hell, by shipping them (or pretending to because they are quick to throw Daenerys under the bus, they just want to use her as a self insert), Jon’s stans can elevate him through Daenerys.

From what I have also seen of the most of the Jon stanning Jonerys shippers so far, I must agree. Part of it is that in real life, men also can't be much of anything professionally nor domestically without leaching off of their female partners and family members, so of course we have people do the same with fictional characters. Apparently in the U.S. men are more likely to get promotions and shit when they have children or get married or even just move in with a woman whereas it's the reverse for women. Still, bc it's tacitly expected the woman would be the one performing much domestic labor and birthing children that "depend" on the man's income. You'd think BOTH would get the promo for the household to get even more $, but nah...bc women are the main consumers but also the expected ones to consistently consume products for their households, children, etc.

Aside from Nymeria and Ghost--the dogs themselves, but in the case of Nym, the relationship w/Arya, I am in anticipation of seeing again in the books--the direwolves of ASoIaF don't really intrigue me all that much. And it could be bc we haven't gone anywhere away from Bran using Summer to warg AND I don't see how they'd be involved with the coming war to this day.

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Anonymous asked:

It might be an unpopular opinion but I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope Daenerys and Jon don’t end up together in the books. Not only because Jon’s stans viciously hate Daenerys and steal her storyline to give it to Jon, but Jonerys as a ship is very status quo heteropatriarchal, and it will only thrive through Daenerys sacrificing many aspects of herself to elevate Jon and let him thrive.

In order to be with Jon and lessen herself as a “threat” to him, Daenerys will give up her claim to the Iron Throne. She will go to his family, home, and land, to help fight for his people (rather than him going to hers). She will acclimate to his lifestyle and family, and so will her people, again rather than the other way around. He won’t have to share his sword or direwolf with her, but she’ll have to share her dragons—her children—with him. His birth is a big reason why she is exiled, and rather than him contending with it, Daenerys will be forced to make apologies for her father’s behavior and concessions for it as well. She will burn the Iron Throne, but Jon will not have to burn his own throne (and when he does give it up, it’ll be for his brother Bran, not for Daenerys). Jon has his own family, but Daenerys doesn’t.

They will be in his terrain, not hers, terrain he is far more familiar with. Daenerys will have to do more to show loyalty to his family than he will to show loyalty to her chosen/found family, especially because of the stigma surrounding her parentage. If they do get married, Daenerys’s name and status will only help legitimize Jon as a Targaryen even more, whereas Jon will give her nothing, no advantage or boon.

Jon won’t be able to win against the Others without Daenerys, whereas Daenerys doesn’t need Jon to take back her throne (in fact, he is an obstacle to her getting that throne and will be the reason she gives up on it). Choosing between love and duty to family will be harder for Daenerys than for Jon, because Jon won’t be giving anything up by being with her. If Daenerys doesn’t share and sacrifice all of these things about herself, and instead expects Jon to do so, then Daenerys will always be seen as the Mad Queen/daughter of the Mad King, and as unacceptable/unfit for Jon.

Jonerys shippers often lie and claim that they are equals, but them being equals is 1) not true and 2) actually a huge insult to Daenerys. They’re not equals because Daenerys is going to give up much more to be with Jon than the other way around, which imparts a power imbalance in the relationship and enables Jon to gain further concessions from Daenerys when the time comes (which he will do, it is guaranteed), and secondly because Daenerys in her current stage has been a queen regnant for so long. The man she marries must be her consort, not her equal.

Ruling as “equals” with a man reduces the power and autonomy Daenerys has and undermine her authority, forcing her to share with Jon, rather than her being the final authority and Jon being the consort. Westeros is a patriarchal society, a sovereign is regarded as holding supreme dominion over the state, while a husband is deemed to hold supreme dominion over his wife. Some may see this as better than her situation with Drogo or Hizdahr, but the reason Daenerys will be able to defeat Hizdahr and what freed her from Drogo and the obligation to marry is the fact that she could be THE regnant, and not have to power share with a husband. Jon is also not the type of man who wants to settle for being an obedient consort.

Jon has always wanted to rule, he wanted it even when he knew Robb would inherit Winterfell, and in his dreams of ruling Winterfell when Stannis offers it to him, Val is his consort, not his equal. Hence, this goes back to the first point too. Under the guise of “being equals,” Jon will demand more and more from Daenerys until she is the de facto consort and he the regnant/authority. Those who want Jon to be like Jaehaerys I are implicitly admitting to this as well: Jaehaerys knew Daenerys was his heir, but planned on lessening her power and making her the de facto consort to Aemon the Pale Prince, so that Aemon could be the real authority and regnant. Jonerys takes away from all the parallels and similarities GRRM has written between Daenerys and Aegon the Conqueror.

The politics in Daenerys’s arc are incredibly significant. The revolution she’s spearheaded and the changes she’s made and institutions she’s built show her potential as a queen regnant. If Daenerys married one of her queensguard or warriors like Jhogo, it would still hammer home the subversiveness and enable Daenerys to remain the sole ruler, instead of having to marry a man who is a danger to her life and political power. Jhogo is introduced by stopping Viserys from hitting Daenerys by wrapping his whip around his throat, he’s the first one to lay his arakh at her feet after she hatches three dragons and emerges unharmed from the flames and called her “blood of my blood”, and he’s utterly devoted to Daenerys, serving her as loyally as he would a man and he will do anything for her, even when it contradicts Dothraki culture.

I appreciate the comprehensive list for why Jonerys can't work, anon, I've been thinking about bk!Jon here and there recently. And much of what you say makes a lot of sense, esp:

Choosing between love and duty to family will be harder for Daenerys than for Jon, because Jon won’t be giving anything up by being with her. If Daenerys doesn’t share and sacrifice all of these things about herself, and instead expects Jon to do so, then Daenerys will always be seen as the Mad Queen/daughter of the Mad King, and as unacceptable/unfit for Jon.

And:

Daenerys will have to do more to show loyalty to his family than he will to show loyalty to her chosen/found family, especially because of the stigma surrounding her parentage.

I came to a similar conclusion but more because Dany has lived in a foreign places her entire life and all her current loved ones (except Barristan Selmy) are "Easterners" who've never lived under the Faith religion. Basically, xenophobia.

Largely, I agree on Daenerys never "sharing" power with a man because yes her regnant authority alone allows her to be able to assure both her/her people's safety AND make sure her institutional-change momentum keeps going. I just wonder why she would be seen as a threat to Jon? Is it in the event that his parentage is revealed and, similar to Daemon Blackfyre (or what's said abt him), Jon's supporters push for him to make moves to "protect" himself? Daenerys is a force onto herself, so she'd be a threat to any possible male descendant, true, but what does Jon materially have other than his maleness that could force Dany to even consider giving up her claim? Although even this would likely end-prevent all possible romances between them.

Even with all that, I have the suspicion Jon will become very...odd and threatening after his resurrection. Too much so to remain a part of any higher authority for long, so I don't think Jonerys will really stick even of there are some stirrings toward romance b/t them. Without her, I also don't think Jon could hold a position of authority for himself bc he'd be too, again, "odd" and likely very vengeful and angry...although I guess in this world this would at first be seen & misinterpreted as a positive trait for men to portray "strength", so idk. Whereas Dany is literally the Lady of Light, it feels too much like they are opposites or at least will have opposing vibes and feelings and values upon meeting. Of course, things could change on Jon's end, but WoW will appear to feature Jon's reluctance to give up any control after what happened to him in his betrayal.

I could also say that Jon wanting Val as his consort jives since Val is not a regnant Queen, but she is still a unique authority amongst her people and has her own "name"; being a Westerosi-style "consort" is not for her. However, I have the impression that Jon wanted Winterfell as his own in a sort of fantasy of power as part of his boyish desires to escape his bastardry, similar to how he admired Daeron I, which he doesn't really revisit and reinvest in again seriously as far as I remember (I haven't reread yet so I could be just talking farts right now). But again, at the same time, we don't know the exact sequence of thoughts and actions he'll have in WoW. Whether his anger and vengefulness will borrow from these early desires to justify and build into something more, and one could def make the argument to its likelihood, esp when Jon is still very much a man of his society (Myrcella, Sansa and yes I understand why he'd feel the way he did abt Sansa, more after these parentheses) and even if he does have some sort of come-to-Jesus moment with all his flaws can one in Dany's position really be expected to put all her eggs in his basket or have faith in him when the entire trend in her life is men--intentionally or not, but usually intentionally--trying to use her up? Yeah, her better bet is someone who has proven their devotion time and time again.

Still, as a romance thing, her and Jhogo specifically doesn't appeal to me emotionally, either. Mostly because I have never seen into his head or followed his experiences. He is substantive character, don't get me wrong, but he has a particular side role and I've never cared for attachment-central character romances, male-male, female-female-, nor female-male/male-female. For politics and the bigger picture sake, absolutely, he's a good choice for Dany. Or any of her Queensguard of appropriate enough age, some warrior separate enough from the Targaryen lineage. Would I swoon or wax poetic about it, though? Nah, I'd more logically appreciate such a tie, even as I worry what it might mean for any sort of court she'd create where she doesn't take a Westerosi lord husband (which again, I don't think she should really do either unless he's so low in noble status [like Cole] he nor his family can do basically nothing to her OR/AND bc, again, that xenophobia similar to what happened with Daeron II marrying Myriah Martell) which always leads me to the depressing conclusion that Westeros just isn't the ideal place for Dany even if they unknowingly need her.

Hope this was all legible and coherent, I was doing stream of conscious, writing on the fly. George needs to finish & release this damn book. Yes yes we shouldn't rush--doesn't mean I don't wish to be proven right abt some things and wrong abt others.

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cbrownjc

GRRM and Romance

So, this isn’t something I have seen so much being said on tumblr, but I have seen it said other places, most specifically when it comes to Jon and Daenerys’ relationship, and it’s this: “George R. R. Martin doesn’t do romance!”

And when I see it said, I always do a “what?” double take. Because it’s clear people who say or think this don’t know of GRRMs writing credits outside of ASOIAF/GOT. More specifically, one credit in particular: the television show Beauty and the Beast which aired on CBS from 1987-1990. He was not only one of the main writers for the show, (penning 14 episodes out of the total 46 of the show’s run, the third most of any of the writers for the show), but was also one of the supervising producers of the show as well. And at the time, and even after it short run was over, it was considered to be one of the most romantic shows ever produced for television. 

I was around 9 or 10 when the show first came on back in the 80s, and was so not into dramatic romance shows. So I never watched it when it was in its original run. It was actually about a year after it ended when I first started watching it (having just entered my early teens). And to this day, almost 30 years later, that show still has not only left an impression on me, but is also still one of the most romantic shows I think has ever been done for television, just as was said about it when it first aired. 

The show wasn’t just a romance, it was a High Fantasy Romance. Unlike the reboot on the CW a few years back that had a pretty handsome-looking guy who would “beast” out or whatever, the Vincent of the original looked as he did in the above image from the beginning of the show until the end of it. His physical appearance never changed. And along with his otherworldly looks, he and Catherine shared what could only be described as a mystical connection between them. They could only describe it between them as a “bond” but the gist of it was, they could feel each others emotions. They could feel what the other was feeling at almost every moment. Which, on one level, help to add some “action” into the show, since Catherine was a lawyer and so would get into life-threatening situations with some of her cases. Vincent could feel when she was in trouble and rushed to save her, usually killing the people that were trying to hurt her, giving in to the more “animalistic” side of his nature (though the network kept wanted to reign that fact back).  

However, the point of their bond was more than just for that. It was to enhance the idea of the theme of the show, the theme of the beauty and the beast tale in general, of being able to see the true beauty inside someone. On the surface, Vincent and Catherine both appeared to be ugly. Whereas Vincent just had the physical ugliness, Catherine actually started out the story as a typical spoiled rich girl “yuppy” type, who’s dad would pay for anything she wanted. She’s mistaken for somebody else one night, brutally beaten and left for dead in Central Park, where Vincent finds her and saves her life. 

It is here that their bond begins to form. Vincent, who was always guarded and would hide away from people because of his looks, (except from his “family,” a society of people who lived under NYC as well like he did, and were all viewed as outcasts for various reasons), allows himself to begin to feel worthy of being loved. And Catherine, changed not only by her experience but the kindness of Vincent’s heart, starts working at the DA’s office instead of her dad’s law firm, to help people in any way she can. 

The show only ran three years because of lots of behind the scenes drama. The main one being, Linda Hamilton wasn’t fully committed to doing a tv show just in general. (Filming tv is much different than filming movies). As George himself says in this interview from the Hollywood Reporter, she wanted to go back to doing movies, plus have children. (She and director James Cameron were a couple at the time, and they did have a kid together. Her relationship with him would go on to have a lot of drama in and of itself too). So, when the time came when she could leave the show, she left. Meaning, given the premise of the show, Catherine’s character was killed off. The bond between her and Vincent got broken so he couldn’t save her when she got into a situation beyond her control with one of the most powerful men in the city. 

However, the reason the bond got broken was revealed to be because the bond got transferred into the child she and Vincent conceived a few weeks back, when Vincent was going through a “violent madness” - basically losing his humanity to his more “animalistic” side. The bond between them is what was able to save him from the madness and, though you never see them make love (which you never did at any point during the show even before this, mostly because the network didn’t seem to want to show such a thing), they did, and conceived a child that night. 

The whole theme of this part of the story became based around the Dylan Thomas poem And Death Shall Have No Dominion. A poem I still know most of by heart because of this show. 

Though they go mad they shall be sane, Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again; Though lovers be lost love shall not; And death shall have no dominion.

The final episodes of the show closed out the story, with Vincent able to find Catherine before she died (the man who kidnapped her kept her alive when he discovered she was pregnant, then injected her with an overdose of morphine after she gave birth to her and Vincent’s son). They quoted those above lines from that Dylan Thomas poem to each other as she died in his arms. Vincent was able to find the child later and save him too, with the help of a new “beauty” in Diana Bennett. And while I personally did like her character, the whole premise of the show was the uniqueness of Vincent and Catherine’s bond. There was just no way you could take that and begin to try and transfer it to a new character being placed in the “beauty” role. As George R. R. Martin himself said about it:

Basically I look back on it now and think we were in a no-win situation. I think we did some very fine work in the third season, but the core of the show was the romance. It was Vincent and Catherine. We brought in a new Beauty in the person of Jo Anderson, who was a wonderful actress in the part of Diana Bennett. She was great to work with. But you can’t do two seasons of telling the world, “This is a love story for the ages, this is Romeo and Juliet,” and then suddenly third seasons say, “Juliet? Forget Juliet. It’s Romeo and Harriet. Here’s a different love story for the ages!” So that didn’t work. When the love story stopped, our core audience left. If Linda had not left the show we could have gone for five years at least. 

So basically once Vincent found his son, the show was over. 

And it was his experience with writing for the show, and the limits that came with writing directly for tv that he experienced while doing so, that made him leave tv writing behind and go off and begin writing A Song of Ice and Fire. Because with a book, you don’t have to worry about production budgets for creating a world (like the underground NYC world of the show), or actors wanting to leave because they don’t want to do tv anymore, which basically kills your whole show’s premise; or the network not wanting more darkly violent acts for the “beast” to commit when trying to protect his “beauty” … along with never being able to show them having sex, and only confirming that they ever did when a child finally comes into the story but only because said actress now wants to leave the show, and is pregnant at the time in real life anyway. 

A Song of Ice and Fire, and by extension the tv show adapted from it Game of Thrones, isn’t a High Fantasy Romance story. A love story isn’t the main driving narrative of the story. However, the idea that GRRM wouldn’t put a romance in the story, and one that is highly romantic in its nature, seems like a very bad take when it comes to his backstory as a writer. If anything, the love stories and relationships he does write about are ones that are just as unconventional as Vincent and Catherine’s was. They don’t follow the normal tropes of relationships or love stories you usually find in romance stories, even in the genre of high fantasy. GRRM himself said that his favorite part to write in Fire and Blood was the story of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen and Queen Alysanne, which he himself has also called a “great romance.” 

Yet, it was straight up an incestous relationship between a brother and a sister and, in universe, they created and had people preach what more or less was a doctrine of exceptionalism in order to justify the relationship. Yet, their reign was one of the most peaceful periods in Westeros history, lasting over 50 years. And yet, their reign also help to set the stage for the Dance of the Dragons civil war just over two decades later. So even the relationship he called a “great romance” has his patented “shades of gray” to it.

Jon and Daenerys are already unconventional when it comes to romance stories in general, not just high fantasy love stories; and the incest part of it not even being the main thing with regard to that IMO. Their fates are clearly entwined, yet they never meet until what is essentially the final act of the story. Just basic and standard writing tropes would have had Jon and Daenerys meeting in act one of the story, forming a connection. And then, though circumstance, being split apart by the end of the first act, so that they would spend the majority of act two trying to get back to each other. Or with that at least being one of their goals, to reunite, along with whatever other goals they needed to accomplish in act two of the story. However, in ASOIAF/GOT, Jon and Daenerys go on their Joseph Campbell-esque Heroes Journeys separately, completely unaware of the other’s very existence until the third and final act of the story begins. That’s just not how it’s usually done, and you usually only see third-act romantic hookups in long-running tv shows after you get multiple cast change-overs. But again, this is why GRRM left writing for tv, so he could do unconventional things like this with his story. 

So this idea that some people have that George R. R. Martin doesn’t do romance is ridiculous. Not only does he do it, he clearly likes very much to do them in highly romantic ways, ways that make them great romances in his view. He just doesn’t do or write conventional romances. His great romance couples are never written in a conventional mode, or have standard conventional romantic tropes about them. And there is always a shade of gray to them. And Jon and Daenerys are no exception to all of that.                  

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It has always been so so obvious to me that Jon and Dany are going to find out about their blood ties BEFORE becoming lovers. Like, I don't know if that's a super unpopular speculation but this is the way I have always imagined it. Getting together and THEN finding out about Jon's father is just so weird, because this revelation is a huge plot twist in any case :

  • It reveals Jon's Targaryen blood and invalidates his stigma for being a bastard which has been the very foundation of his arc, thus completely shuttering every single thing that Jon has believed about himself, his house and the world around him
  • It sheds some light to honorable Ned's highly ambiguous (but also impossible) choice, and Ned's moral integrity and entire persona is a cardinal element of the entire series, both narratively and thematically
  • it rearranges the entire political landscape since now we have not one but two Targaryens and the leader of the North (which I believe that Jon will be) happens to be one of them which will inevitably have huge political consequences
  • it lays the ground for the war for the dawn by revealing Jon's obvious connection to the prophecy, being the incarnation of the union of the Starks and the Targs, the union of ice and fire, the son of the man who first sought out the prophecy
  • it shakes Dany at her core because her whole life she felt sad for having no family left and now she has a family, she has a nephew who is also a soul mate because their journeys mirror each other and he is the son of the man she idolized for her entire life...

But that's somehow not enough, and it would be even better to have this plot twist turn their pre-established dynamic as lovers upside down? Why? It doesn't make any sense to me. It could go two ways, either they are absolutely overjoyed by the revelation cause now they are not just lovers, they are family too, uwu so cute (very anticlimatic), or they are absolutely shocked and horrified by the revelation, which makes this entire scenario very soap opera-ish and also contrary to asoiaf lore. So you mean to tell me that Targaryens have wed each other for centuries but somehow for Dany and Jon it will be so disgusting? Why? They are not even siblings, they didn't even grow up together.

The only reasonable way this could go is for them to bond over their past experiences and shared cause, find out about their blood ties bringing them even closer, and then become lovers.

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Anonymous asked:

about dany: I can just see this 13 year old girl being scared shitless and dissociating hard while meeting drogo while acknowledging that viserys is selling her off.

how can people say she is okay with slavery? treatment of women in asoiaf is so vile 😭

when I first entered the fandom and was going through book/show, i always thought of the end as Dany and Jon and now, Dany vs Jon. like the latter makes no sense to me. why do people think so?

Anon's probably referring to this post, or at least this post provides context.

This is just coming off the top of my head: some people dislike the idea of Jonerys (the ship name) and some people like the idea of these alike people duking it out despite the setup for at least a grand friendship.

Jon's stans tend to skew toward entitled or immature men and internalized misogynists -- at least from what I've seen in my 8-month shtick online -- and jackoshadows here on Tumblr is one of the few I've found who aren't. Daenerys receives the most passionate and insane misogyny of any female character in ASoIaF, and some don't want to pair her with their fav. And some see her as Jon's competitor for the throne, seeing as he's Rhaegar son by Lyanna.

that's all I got for now.

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jackoshadows

Can I just ask because every now and then I see these ‘eww incest’ posts on the tag. If fictional incest is so taboo and wrong, if it’s a line that cannot be crossed, then how can one be okay with a story set in a world where the author has described Alysanne and Jaehaerys as a  ‘great Targaryen love story’? Shouldn’t he be describing that as one of the most disgusting Targaryen love stories given their platonic love for each other as children and siblings clearly turned into romantic and sexual love at some point?

Clearly biology and science and sexual attraction works differently in GRRM’s magical fantasy world.

Why are there love songs being written about Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys in Westeros? These two are also siblings. Here is Sansa talking about her great love for Joffrey and comparing it to the love between siblings Naerys and Aemon:

I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.” - Sansa, AGoT
Naerys loved Prince Aemon the most out of her two brothers, as he knew how to make her laugh. Aemon was also more like Naerys in character, while Prince Aegon was not.
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I need the disgusting and misogynistic fuckers who want Jon to murder Dany stay away from both of their characters.

GRRM won't fulfill your nasty fantasy, you pieces of trash. Sho sho sho, leave asoiaf and Dany and Jon fucking alone.

Not only this kind of ending is disgusting for both characters, it's nonsensical as well. A disturbing, wishful thinking of Dany antis. No basis on the story GRRM is telling at all. Let's be real here, they hate have a hate boner for her; and I don't believe for a second they're Jon stans. They see the inevitability of their relationship and use Jon as a tool against Dany.

  1. Dany stans have extensively and brilliantly talked about her heroism, how she's a good person and queen, how she's nothing like Aerys II. And how she's part of the Key Five, meant to live until the end.
  2. Throughout his journey, a duty vs love conflict permeates Jon's character. Besides a complex ruling arc, we have the culmination of this conflict in ADWD, when Jon ultimately chooses love. So pray tell me how it makes sense he, a character who has chosen the equivalent of love in his duty vs love conflict , would kill the woman he's prophecised to have a romantic relationship with!!! He would have no reason to; and it would go against his very character.
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