Maybe Maelor does exist even though we haven't seen him. IDK, I haven't heard any of the HotD team say he was totally cut out. But if so, what you say could always be true.

Yes and no, kinda.

No, because they didn't develop how these two got there, the actual scenes and interactions or flirtations earlier for the "surprise" effect. Not just tiny moments you had to catch but some people will not bc they are so tiny, in the midst of all the chaos that's often going on in the same time. I'm talking full scenes, dialoges, etc. Because we need to see how this devoted Faith follower decided that she and Criston were the exception. The how is important to understand the hypocrisy--see it as it happens. don't take it for granted. In the face of her devotion to the Seven and the "rules", at least let us see her try to bargain and then find ways to excuse herself from all that. Like how we saw in the The white queen Margarey Beaufort explain to herself why she slept with Jasper Tudor even as she tries to control Elizabeth of York.

Yes, bec that's the "bigger picture" explanation of her being a hypocrite (this is actually just an oversimplification bordering on dehumanization bc we have that lack of material/journey I describe and we went "this was inevitable right from the beginning"), the goal, and it had been hinted at in the last 6 or so episodes of S1. However, this is a story, there's meant to be plot events to take us on that psychological journey and give material to Alicent's decisions. No, production costs aren't good enough excuses for bad story telling. These are critical enough faults that undermine the substance of Alicent's personhood to just spectacles of the "surprise" of her and Criston bc we already know she would do that bc of her hypocrisy, but that is all we're given. Our own knowledge. where is her struggle with the contradiction?

Yes hypocrites usually start out with that, as we saw Criston's own first nonverbal struggles with his decision for his own desire versus his oaths of celibacy.

🔗LINK to the RogerEbert Site

this is actually something GRRM set up by not giving Rhaenyra enough impactful stuff to do once she is out of her grief, but these writers had the opportunity to extend the timeline they already messed up. 🤷🏾‍♀️`

I think it's more of what I describe HERE, HERE, esp HERE. Because while she has only two lines/actions of note before her descent into grief-madness and suicide in the book:

you can can still develop a character from these actions/words (again, look to that last linked post). It's not impossible, bc there iss till action and context and how she is used/relates to her family by how they conduct themselves, why they are usurping Rhaenyra, what justifications they use, the entire point of the Dance and its effect, and their own values. To think about the effect that may have on Helaena in conjuction w/what we see above in the quotes: how can/could she have become that.

So if the writers did feel this:

they aren't very imaginative or observant as they think. So I also still agree that it partially comes from egotistical, intellectual laziness:

Helaena of the orig story may not do great actions aside from kill herself in such a graphic way (GRRM again with the graphic violence women go through being the starkest thing they do), but it's worse when you make her even more passive by making her keep her dreams to herself and using them to make her seem more mysterious than she is. And Helaena actually was important plot wise--mechanically--bc it is her Sophie's Choice then suicide that comes to Rhaenyra's having to flee KL, as GRRM mentions in his deleted Sept 4 blog post.

Because the other thing is that mystery in ASoIaF usually works as a mystery when there is non-revealing information suggested to both the characters AND readers; whereas HotD Helaena's "mystery" is known to the audience but not the characters & thus it really doesn't hit and is not real "mystery" so much as futility and an attempt at pleasing some in the audience at the expense of developing her.

Which is another reason why she feels so empty and is still not that compelling for many people in the audience.

Video belongs to HBO/Max/HBOMax, all credits to them! I do not own this video!

Do not mind this post if not interested, this is for Storage!!!!

Some Links:

My Twitter Thread abt the Show De-Femming Characters as if to Castigate or Reduce Femmeness/Femme Womanhood as "Weakness" (Includes Rhaena)

Excerpt/one Tweet in that Thread

BranwynHlfwitch's Tweets abt Rhaenyra with a Sword -- Talks about Other stuff than Rhaenyra's Non-Femme-Femininity:

My comment to said post:

My Tumblr Post abt Rhaenyra w/a Sword:

Other Stuff abt the show Purposefully Denigrating Bk!Rhaenyra's Ultra Femme Presentation and Making it as if IT was her "Sitting Out" or Perpetuating the Idea of her Laziness/Unfitness thru that Rather than Keepign that as More of a Critique of GRRM's Writing: (MINE)

From Twitter Thread abt How Bad the Crowns Were:

Others:

Talked about this HERE.

Not to mention that it substantiates epi 10's choking scene that I argued was always about abuse. And HotD's predilection to use unsubstantiated and extra scenes of violence against women--bc most that wasn't even in the book or can be argued as having been there--to create more drama and shock value. and to appeal to the "the Targs were the most evil people who almost brought the Westerosi to their knees".

So yeah, I will "judge" a fucking "3-second" clip, even if it's just the HotD or HBO teams trying to get people talking. If you feel that DV is a great way to get people hyped about the show, reducing DV to a marketing ploy as if it isn't already undermined as a serious offense against women bc women are blamed for it (without bringing relief to the female victim in the show who is getting abused, it's just voyeuristic torture), then you are still also minimizing DV for money. You are still undervaluing rape as an "everyday unfortunate thing", using it so casually FOR MONEY. Abuse & r*pe become capitalist playthings.

Like, think about it! They expect us to believe that Criston is from Dorne or has a Dornish parent when there has been no show!proof bc:

So we are meant to think Criston Dornish with little to no proof AND knowing that he was never Dornish by canon. So show!Rhaenyra was taking advantage of a PoC man (the Dornish are not PoCs, they are "spicy" white people-equivalents, even the Martells). But we're also meant to think show!Daemon is either not being abusive nor that it's such a big deal bc "he was always mean to be an abuser". Criston isn't an incel, but Daemon was always an abuser of Rhaenyra...

Watch how some fans will also say that Rhaenyra deserves to get smacked around bc she "raped" and manipulated Criston & is a danger to men everywhere!

We don't think such things are bleeding into and have informed the writers into making Rhaenyra, Rhaena (tiktok and HERE), Rhaenys all diluted and isolated versions of themselves?!!! Same as with the whole Velaryons are paternity test and Laena choosing to kill herself shit!

Rhaenyra--unlike Dany who we have much more room to (correctly) assume she will not die or be majorly wounded from sexism--was already doomed and abused or slandered for most of her life. After the S8 Dany-facist-death of GoT, these writers could have chosen to not assert themselves against the idea of a woman trying to take back what is stolen base don her gender and then paint Rhaenyra's death as a tragedy in several different ways and meaning. They were already starting for -50. not we're at -75. But they have the temerity, the audacity, the chutzpah of using Daenerys to also market this fuckass show:

Well, when you don't listen and take notes...

And once, again, even if this was a marketing tactic to get people talking, good, now you've isolated so many fans who don't tolerate any form or scene of DV that is being used to say "you shouldn't really support the side that has its lady abused by her husband" to say "both sides are equally bad" when that has never been the case and is a gross oversimplification. But yes, show!watchers will not care and now this is the popular legacy of this ASoIaF/F&B story.

The most right now anyone is going to get out of me are the two TikToks I wrote about Rhaena and the clip we were cursed with. Also uploaded the commentary on the clip on YouTube.

They are all demons. Sent to destroy my last iota of resilience, I swear.

The most right now anyone is going to get out of me are the two TikToks I wrote about Rhaena and the clip we were cursed with. Also uploaded the commentary on the clip on YouTube. Also wrote about the racism the writers do with the Velaryons HERE, in order to be even more sexist towards Rhaenyra...

And a good article to read about the pattern of unnecessary, gratuitous, non canon compliant/contradictory violence against women in HotD, inclu those not Rhaenyra.

If anyone wishes to have a read of this thread...Or this one with this one.

...I just don't have the mental bandwidth right now, sorry

A)

I think that "interesting" for them is actually"potential for high drama, spectacle, and foolishness just because" for some TG stans who say the greens are more interesting. Yes, the green side is actually a complex group AND they rely on fear (amongst themselves and sometimes against the blacks) & strategy...because they have to strategic in order to try to justify some of their actions or wrest the power Rhaenyra's allowed or could accrue at court. To wittle her already-given status as heir to a more passive role. And beyond-court, they wished to convince the realm that Aegon was the rightful king both before and a little after he's crowned. The greens basically had the task to work past the whole "my heir should rule after me" deal that many lords wanted to stay as solid and meaningful as possible by precedent while also arguing on the precedent set by the GC of 101...which was itself a vote based on the adulthood as well as maleness of the candidate chosen. So, again they had to be strategic and shady and underhanded. And that will inevitably give us more drama.

Funny. Ironic.

We already know that the greens were not that successful with the convincing part even with Rhaenyra at Dragonstone and their long success at isolating her, bc it is only Alicent's move to hide Viserys' body, imprison courtiers and servants, hurry to search for Aegon that enables the greens to take the throne at the end AND Rhaenyra still was able to have many more supporters fighting before and after her death for her and her sons' claims.

Which if this is why you like the greens and not bc you think Aegon deserves the throne or ay sort of leadership [bc we see how unwilling and determined he was to not allow his grandfather to actually try to rule him in canon for the very paradigm that develops from Otto-Alicent's style & aims, they created their own monster], valid. I admit, they make the perfect antagonists & foils to the blacks and they do what they are supposed to do.

B)

People, not just TGs, have cited Alicent's past affecting how she views her own and Rhaenyra's motherhood, that chain of abuse. I'm fine with this, this is true. As for Aegon, I wrote a whole master post for what I think is his "deal" HERE, which is long but you can really sum it up as him trying to prove how great of a leader and man he is in lieu of the all the years he's been on the side and Rhaenyra was Viserys' heir. Yeah his life and misery and nastiness is in part bc Alicent wishes to prepare him to become king and "peacefully" reestablish the order of patriarchal feudal primogeniture/order so she'd not have to confront her own suffering and still materially benefit from it in "exchange". This sentence in itself reflects more on Alicent's complexity than Aegon's.

Aemond? Show!him, as presented, is interesting in that he's going to show a sort of vulnerability from his inflexible role as his side's militant "guard" and his worth being drawn mostly from that. He is there to be the support to Aegon's claim. hamliet describes what I am saying well. "Love is a transaction for the Hightowers". He seeks to "prove" himself and tries to make the glory of a warrior replace real love, but it can never so he's a ball of terror.

And love is a transaction, conditional and more so than on the black side because the greens really rely on putting their children's bodies to some sort of use, from Alicent to Otto to Aegon himself and there is no recourse or sign of deep bonds where each understands the other, comforts each other, reaffirms their emotions etc., or tries to make them happy just for the sake of it formed between any green member. (prob should have made this part part of the 1st paragraph but idk how to):

So this troubling, repression, and denial of love is itself intoxicating, and thrilling to people who even don't have to be part of any team. I don't blame them.

C)

This issue for me is then:

Don't get me wrong, the black side aren't angels and do heinous actions...but it is simply true that they do not create the conditions for the war to begin and are also reacting to the usurpation.

Moreover, the blacks are pretty open when they can be to be about their actions and Rhaenyra is also already the heir. But the show didn't explore her life as a mother, what her relationship to womanhood as a mother AND heir looks like without Daemon there, or her kids' development after episode 5:

The blacks comparatively do not have to be as underhanded and sneaky, and yet you will also have green stans argue that they are entitled, malicious, terrible threats to a perceived order (a projection--the greens are more that bc they are going against the king's word and what I said above about heirs and precedents).

This and majorly bc of how much opportunity we lost from the writing of this show focusing on developing the greens is also why they appear as "boring" or uninteresting while overbearing, scheming, manipulative agents of destruction at the same time to some people, even though they have more than their fair share of drama and angst from the very hierarchies they are perceived to totally benefit from.

Yes, the show would have been better with just one or two tjs and even then not for that long of a period for those tjs. jeynearrynofthevale points out:

Last bit, no. Why? Because A) Rhaenyra was never going to touch those kids unprovoked and B) Rhaenrya is claimed to be as stupid as to actually expect her father to torture Aemond, one of his own kids...no, she only wanted to put pressure on him to question Aemond severely and not let up, to focus on that bastardry thing so Alicent can slip up or try to stop Viserys from being harsh or try to punish Aemond and thus expose herself. I need people to be so fr--why would Rhaenyra make things worse for herself but demanding that her brother be tortured?! To call for a prince's torture, when such a thing is beyond even a self proclaimed caring father's ability?! to expect a father to have one of this sons physically tortured? That's so cartoonishly evil, the same sort of thing many of you green stans have said made the greens subpar characters in the orig story! So when it's Rhaenyra doing something like that, it all of a sudden makes sense?! We don't even have reason or proof to suspect Rhaenyra of hating her siblings in the show for people to think this way, and no epi 3 doesn't show her hateful of Alicent or her siblings but terrified and lashing out bc Viserys is a dumbass! (this post explains) That's you choosing to think the worse of her bc you probably believe that she would kill her siblings even though she expressly states in the orig story that she wouldn't AND show!Rhaenyra is not even as nearly vindictive as book!Rhaenyra for you to think show!Rhaenyra would have that sort of fieriness!!! Everything else in that paragraph, yeah sure.

We needed to see how exactly Rhaenyra ruled Dragonstone. both before and after she married Daemon. How he let her rule without attempting to overpower her authority as what's canonically suggested. How Daemon interacted and developed her first 3 sons; how Rhaenyra became a stepmother and a motherly figure to the dragon twins. Contrast that with how Alicent and Otto interact with her kids. Show us how the black kids interact with each other and come to support or care for each other. How Rhaenys and Corlys navigates their relationship to these boys, as well as how and when she visits Rhaena. As it stands, the show makes as if Rhaenys couldn't pick herself up and ride Meleys to Dragonstone several times to see Rhaena at least...how convienent....

anyway, back to the prompt.

So, let me see if I can remember all the cookups I thought these past few years.

Well, we obviously begin with the time jump before epi 6--erase that or reduce it! Rhaenyra and Harwin. I'd make it so that we go towards Rhaenyra and Harwin come together--comfort after a month or so of the murder of Joffrey Knight of Kisses, multiple scenes of them taking notice until a kiss, their sex scene with actual intimacy, some sort of discussion about what she wanted from him and his acceptance--then her first pregnancy with Jacaerys. Her terror both with the concept of pregnancy and with how she expects either Viserys or Corlys to react and ruminating over Aemma (flashbacks are our friend). Maybe a scene of her refusing to even give birth during labor. Her struggle with aborting the pregnancy, even, once she finds out about it. Not just bc this is the love she had that kept her afloat and made her a mother for the first time, it is also how she may have been restored to the notion of a devoted "knight" who believes in her ability to rule. They're both obviously conflicted about Jace. No, Jace is not Criston's. How does Alicent, when she first puts 2 and 2 together, approach it with Viserys and what is their first onscreen serious disagreement like? Does she threaten (she wore a slit in her front at the feast, is she so daring now?) How does Aemond, Aegon, Daeron all talk to and about Rhaenyra's sons behind doors, around them, and to their faces? Let us see Alicent pretend not to hear them so she needn't "discipline" them. How do the V boys respond, how does Jace clapback? How often, if so, does Corlys and Rhaenys visit the Keep to develop the relationships they have with these boys for Corlys to be so tender to Luke? I'd make it often enough and they stay long enough to catch onto Alicent and Larys' dealings and "sublte" jabs.

There needs to be maybe two more "party" scenes. Viserys was man of party and feasts and celebrations just because. In these scenes, have Rhaenyra and Alicent make several jabs at each other and Viserys barely able to hold them back. We watch Rhaenyra maybe try to talk to or hold her siblings, Alicent holds them back in some manner...bc remember she is totally against Rhaenyra now, and is spreading those rumors. It gets to a point where Rhaenyra just stops trying.

Behind doors, Rhaenyra perhaps tries to speak to various courtiers and council men. Show us which ones are sincerely at her side, which ones feign and pretend, which ones visibly think her not worth the effort or avoid. Who does she make into her ladies in waiting? Does she barter with any lord of lady for support? How successful is she for Alicent to be so "no one supports me!"?

When Lucerys is born, we have Alicent force the baby up, Rhaenyra, however, seeing as this is her second pregnancy come so close to her 2nd, accidentally passes out and is unable to prevent the babe from going up. Perhaps this first attempt is with Jace, but it makes a bit more sense to me for it to be with Luke, not Jace. In those aforementioned feast/"party" scenes, we see Aegon direct Rhaenyra's sons to do more and more naughty things to Aemond with Aegon maybe promising them things. Maybe not. We reinsert Jace talking to Luke about why the court and their uncles seem to dislike them and the crooked finger bit. Because why not just melt our hearts?

Meanwhile, we're doing a back and forth b/t this and DameonxLaena, & this time they are a real couple. Daemon enjoys Laena's being, she does him. Daemon fights the Sealord of Braavos for her as it is written after he speaks to her again after the RhaenyraxLaenor wedding, when he leaves KL for Driftmark, remembering that conversation they had. Laena lets him know about her knowing about him and Rhaenyra having a thing, BEFORE all of this, though, in one of their talks (tops, two scenes), that she was not going to be 2nd place and she'd rather have tha Sealord son be on her neck and herself be free than be 2nd place. Daemon agrees. this occurs after the scene with Rhaenyra and Harwin, as it will match and contrast with how Rhaenyra gets with Harwin and heals as Daemon is "soothed" into fatherhood. Obviously a sex scene, and it's hot. One more non performance dragon riding scene of the two in the skies. Perhaps this is where we get the flashback of Laena bonding with Vhagar, and even her making those ropes we see Aemond climb in episode 7--all as in one of their talks before they marry? Successful birth scene of the twins, Daemon is visibly overjoyed as he sees and holds their girls for the first time. He puts both of their dragon eggs into their cradles, but he's not so disappointed with Rhaena's not hatching over the years. Perhaps sad for her, as Baela hatches Moondancer and is able to bond with her dragon to enjoy her companionship almost since childbirth. He tells her that most Targs don't even bond with their dragons until they hit at least 13, even Aegon the Conqueror himself. Laena had to bond with Vhagar in her teens, her own mother! Does that make Rhaena weak or lesser than Baela, of course not! Otherwise she'd be calling her mom weak, and Laena bosses your poor old dad around! It's fucking saccharine and everybody better enjoy it! (Rhaenys is skeptical, though, she may still suspect Daemon's just in it for the politics or more resents him for "keeping" Laena away from Driftmark).

Daemon doesn't keep Laena in Essos long after the girls are born, though. HE just takes the entire fam to Driftmark after the first time Laena goes up to him, or he asks her.

At this point, I'm just rewriting the damned show, but anyway...

Rhaenyra goes to Driftmark to see Laenor and Corlys, but also to congratulate Daemon, and befriends Laena. They talk abt their children, dragons, fathers, mothers, and maybe not so much abt Daemon unless we give both characters a good sense of humor. Rhaenyra's boys also visit, perhaps they bond with Daemon even now, here, and with Laena. IDK, perhaps just Jace. Depends on how old they are. this spans not 10 years but the orig 6, so maybe Jace. Rhaenyra and Laena have a dragon chase scene by themselves, Daemon-less. It starts out, though with not just Daemon but Laenor being a part of this racing game. Like in the book, Rhaenyra is there to try to save Laena from dying and stays to mourn her with Daemon. There's no self immolation.

So how do we get to Rhaenyra birthing Joffrey in the Keep? She happens to visit there and goes into labor, or course, if that's really what people want. She still lives there, if the HotD writers really want to insist on such 🙄. Now it's easier to see how Rhaenyra's relationships motivate her into keeping herself close to Joff when Alicent does what she does.