I mean... I guess... but that smile could legit just be her like, "You Atlas Elites are really all just like this, ain'tcha?!"

But hey... the theory could be true. And Jacques could have totally left a poor Cinder and her mother to die to get rich. And Cinder just starved endlessly on the streets while her mother passed away from sickness or something.

In which case, yeah, turning to Salem and some power seems logical. Pop off, queen. XD

You know, with all this stuff about Cinder's Grimm arm growing up her arm so unnaturally, it made me think back to one of my favorite RWBY Chibi skits. And yes... I'm referencing RWBY Chibi for a theory. But honestly I don't think this is so outrageous to consider.

So here we go.

Does anyone remember that RWBY chibi episode where all the villains (namely Roman, Emerald, Mercury and lastly Cinder) are sleeping and having various comedic dreams/nightmares? Where Cinder is sleeping and has herself a nightmare where her normal self, her bookworm self, her haughty arrogant self, and a Doll Cinder are fighting to insist they're the most evil and best version of Cinder, unnerving the normal self?

Cos I do.

There are four different versions of Cinder in her dream and Cinder praises all of them at first, noting that thanks to getting rid of her loser henchmen and relying on herself, she's gained the Maiden Powers.

However, the different Cinders are in conflict with each other. They all insist that they're superior (and for comedy, more evil). The Doll Cinder (the creepy one is referred to as Doll Cinder in the subtitles) acts particularly disturbing and creepy. It's hinted that this Doll Cinder is based on a recurring Puppet Cinder that appears on occasion in RWBY Chibi and Cinder is just having a nightmare based on it.

I'll get to the point. The most notable part is that the original Cinder tells the three other versions of herself to back off and that she's the original, causing them all to gang up on her in the dream.

By the end of the skit, Cinder wakes up relieved and looks over at her subordinates, noting "Maybe these guys aren't so bad" with a heartfelt smile. (Then Mercury ruins it and makes her gag and take it back. Lol.)

So what am I getting at here?

I feel like this little skit could be foreshadowing an inner conflict within Cinder as that Grimm arm continues to grow or consume her. It's a common trope for a character to face different versions of themselves under a feverish or dreamlike state in shows like these.

Now that Doll Cinder is curious as is the recurring Puppet Cinder joke. If that arm could consume Cinder, then we must ask ourselves why Salem would give Cinder such a power that could wind up hurting one of her best tools in this war. There's only two possibilities.

1. Salem overestimated Cinder's ability to control her fear and the made an error in giving her this power. It seems incompetent on Salem's part but the fact is, she is urging Cinder to control her fear and make the Grimm arm fear her. She gets irritable when Cinder shows a lack of motivation and throws the "I thought you wanted power!" back into her face. So it is quite possible that she gave this power to Cinder in good faith, on Cinder's word that she'd be able to handle it.

Or...

2. Salem installed a Grimm fail safe in Cinder to control her and turn her into a puppet if in the case Cinder wants to pull away. Despite everything, Cinder is disobedient and emotional. Salem can control the Grimm and if Cinder is Grimm, then Salem can control Cinder too by all logic. If Cinder ever wanted to pull away from Salem's plans, there's just no way. Cutting it off won't work. It grows back. And Salem made it clear that nobody who joins her is leaving. She slaughtered Lionheart, she issued her dangerous warning to Hazel, Emerald and Mercury and told them that their desires would be only found through her.

Basically I'm saying there may be a chance that we see Cinder wrestle with a Grimm/Puppet version of herself in the future. Maybe right out. Maybe in her nightmares or under some hallucination.

But I think as that Grimm arm grows up on her shoulder, there's a good chance that it will come.

time for some good old-fashioned hiatus speculation featuring a quote from volume 4 and how it may relate to the current maidens:

“this last great creation would be given the power to both create and destroy. it would be given the gift of knowledge, so that it could learn about itself and the world around it. and most importantly, it would be given the power to choose, to have free will to take everything it had learned and decide which path to follow - the path of light or the path of darkness.“

so, penny and creation is pretty obvious, since she’s a robot and all that. raven and knowledge fit as well, since after learning part of the truth from ozpin, she wanted to know more and went around the world looking for answers.

but what’s interesting is what’s said about choice and how that might relate to cinder. not only is it the “most important”, but it also talks about which path to follow, light or darkness. so far, cinder has been firmly on the path of darkness, but the quote also mentions knowledge being an important part of making that choice. and currently, cinder’s in possession of the relic of knowledge, which makes me wonder if she’s going to be the one to use the last question, and learn something that might make her reconsider the path she’s chosen.

@hoepunkausta interesting cinder theory I would love to see her use it to see Salem’s intentions for her or something

The part about "taking everything it had learned and decide which path it is to follow--light or darkness" is interesting.

It almost feels like it would imply that there is still a chance to choose. I was discussing earlier that Salem twisted her words as such to make Cinder believe that the Maiden powers are what give her this weakness. Which means that Cinder, going into a lot of this did not have the knowledge going into this either. And with Cinder's backstory and the rest of her history with Salem being a big mystery for now, we also don't know what else Salem fed Cinder to make the concept of power more enticing.

Cinder is fully responsible for her choices she has made, but still, there is always the choice to turn back or towards a different path too. Especially once you come into more knowledge. Cinder has done terrible things, but in the end, we may be seeing a change to that. But what would set such a thing in motion?

It now occurs to me that if Cinder rejoins Salem next season and wants to raise questions about the Grimm arm or the silver eyes thing, Salem can just easily brush it off with,

"Well, you were the one who wanted power, didn't you?"

She could easily just tell Cinder that she gave her all the tools and that it's Cinder's fault her Grimm arm is consuming her because of her fear. After all, she told Cinder to take care of her "new gift". She told Cinder that her "new gift" has some drawbacks to it at a moment where Cinder was physically incapable of speaking and questioning it.

Cinder now has no leg to stand on. She wanted this power so bad. And I bet Salem is going to remind her about it again and again.

Wonder how long till Cinder realizes that Salem isn't her fairy Godmother but her evil Stepmother. Only a matter of time before Salem leaves her broken and takes the good kids to the Ball.

Who just imagined Tyrian and Watts in dresses.

Tyrian would look spiffy in a dark purple. Put that on the record.

It’s been a while since I’ve seen the Disney movie, but I’m certain in almost all of the versions of the tale, Cinderella is locked away in an attic by her evil stepmommy right?

Wonder what that would look like RWBY style.

I'm still not sure how to feel. This was Cinder's most vulnerable and emotional episode that we've ever seen her in.

I gotta ask to those who are more observant than me. Is there still a chance for redemption here as she's sinking deeper? The way that arm grew back has me concerned too...

A few things got confirmed this episode that made me think that it's actually inevitable now for the narrative to offer Cinder a chance to grow and live out a less parasitic life. Maybe she'll shun that chance, or fail to follow through even if she takes it, but I think it became certain that she'll be offered one.

First, we now know really beyond doubt that Emerald and Mercury were not flukes, or people who were just easily misled. Cinder genuinely earned Neo's camaraderie and loyalty. She might not even realize it, or understand how it happened, but clearly it did, just as before. Potentially, we can now look back to Hazel last volume and conclude that his refusal to name Cinder to Salem, even when his life was at stake, was also a decision grounded in loyalty. Despite being a terrible person, she still seems to possess qualities that lead some of the most broken, cynical, people in Remnant to see her and think that she looks friend-shaped.

And that she could inspire loyalty like that, and continues to do so even while half her body is being literally devoured by negativity, is conclusively not a part of Salem's plan for her, and is as well an affect that Salem appears to be trying to grind out of her, or at least discourage. Cinder was never supposed to meet Emerald and Mercury and connect with them--she was supposed to join Marcus Black, a contract killer, and hire him for a job. She was certainly not supposed to bring them home with her, either.

(As an aside, I've always wondered how Salem must have reacted when she found out that Cinder formed a Huntsman team and enrolled at Beacon? This could not possibly have been part of the original plan, because Marcus and Adam aren't passing as students)

At her lowest point, Cinder wasn't supposed to rent an apartment with Neo while looking for loopholes in her orders. She was meant to "toil in her isolation" to make up for Haven, she was meant to give up everything except for obediance to Salem's will. Salem wants her alone and emotionally vulnerable, and she's been instinctively going against that by allowing these relationships to form. (How sad is it, that Cinder Fall is less broken to Salem's will than the Ace Ops are to Ironwood's?)

I don't think it's for nothing that Cinder is placed right between Team RWBYJNPRO and James Ironwood, as the show explicitly identifies giving into fear and isolation as being under Salem's power, while connecting to and trusting others is framed as a fundamental act of defiance against her. It's Ironwood that the show is establishing as the negative extreme, with Cinder being the one in the middle.

We're also shown that Cinder is motivated by her fear of failure, and her fear of being powerless, but that at the same time, Ruby herself provokes a response that overshadows and overcomes everything else. She would rather fail Salem and give up on the power that would guarantee her security, than look Ruby in the eyes. It wasn't that long ago that Cinder was advised to take that which she fears most and, rather than seeking to destroy it, make it work for her. It was framed as a significant moment, and we never really had a payoff to that idea.

So it seems all too convenient that, upon establishing Atlas as the new immediate antagonist, volume 7 has also taken care to reestablish some old points from previous volumes: that 1) Cinder is really really good at outmaneuvering Ironwood, and 2) that she genuinely hates the way Atlas holds overwhelming power over everyone else. And for once, when it comes to Atlas, it's not a personal grievance, but--here and in volume 3--it's a grudge that she can even bring herself to share, and through it identify herself as just one of many.

Altogether, as a villain with a few buried virtues, understandable fears and motivations, and a grudge against forces the audience is being primed to see as deserving of hatred, I think Cinder shows more signs of evolving into a villain protagonist of the kind you see in anime like FMA and Shippuden. Villains like that often find it freeing to be understood as they are, and 7e13 even ended taking the time to suggest that it's important for the protagonist group to understand how she ended up becoming the person she is.

This, this is all amazing.

You especially blew me away with noting that Cinder's subservience to Salem is not as tight as the AceOps misguided and wound up loyalty to Ironwood. That really made me blink and shudder.

Thank you for this. This analysis was downright excellent.

I agree with everything but the Hazel part is questionable given his nature. Out of all the bad guys he is the most good. After all, The scene last volume Hazel wasn’t just protecting Cinder, her was also protecting Emerald and Mercury. He even tries to avoid fighting and killing, unless it involves Oz which makes him go crazy.

Aside from that Everything is basically spot on so bravo and well done.

Put it this way, if Hazel can feel for Mercury and Emerald, then it is logical he also may feel something for Cinder. Judging by how she mimics Salem like a child would mimic their parent, Salem has had influence over Cinder for some time. Cinder trusts Salem.

So from that, we can glean that Cinder was quite young when she started learning from Salem. My best guess is she was around 15 years of age just like Ruby. But either way, she would have been student aged like Emerald and Mercury.

And so you're telling me that Hazel stood by and watched this kid get groomed by Salem and psychologically abused and he never felt a single thing for her?

That doesn't track with Hazel's character. What makes more sense is that he did have a soft spot for her but has distanced himself from Cinder to ignore hypocrisy it takes to allow Salem to pull kids into her war while fighting against Oz for the same thing.

Oh and it's more than coincidence that the Hazel Tree is a thing from the actual Grimm fairytale version of Cinderella.

The Hazel Tree is the fairy godmother of the Grimm Fairytale. Cinderella, being abused daily, waters the tree with its tears and it acts as a conduit to her dead mother's spirit who begins to answer her prayers and wishes.

It's not strange to suggest that Hazel has a soft spot or some loyalty to Cinder with all this information.

I know I'm fairly optimistic about Winter and Penny not dying this vol to subvert Vol 3's outcome, but I could still be wrong. I'm gonna hold onto hope that Winter will be fine, but in the case that it's not true next chapter, please feel free to let me have it.

If she dies then we can wear our clown hats in solidarity

CRWBY, pls, spare me from Winter's death and more wretched Cinder hate for another eight months?

Honestly, I'm still pulling for a Cinder and Neo partnership...

I've been seeing a few posts that state that Neo is regretting working with Cinder (maybe she is), that Cinder is treating her more like a subordinate than an equal (again, I could see that... for now), and that we all thought that Neo will backstab Cinder but now they may subvert things and have Cinder kill Neo instead.

And honestly... I don't know. I really don't get that impression from the last episode.

astoria00 brought a lot of things to my attention in the brilliant way that she always does and so there are a few factors to take into account from the previous episode.

First off, Neo's worried glance when Cinder tossed her back the scroll?

Cinder knows they have to switch gears now, because Ruby is with thousand of people down in Mantle. She's visibly tense now that Watts and Tyrian have dropped the ball, knowing that she's the only wild card to getting both the precious relic and the Relic of Creation.

I'm pretty sure in the case of being partners with Roman, there had to be moments where he needed to abruptly switch plans around as well.

Secondly, Cinder killing Neo off.

I don't know. It would feel a bit too close to her set up with Raven in Vol 5. The CRWBY loves to draw parallels but they do in order to point to a significant change.

And I must stress that Neo is here for Cinder's character development. If Cinder killed Neo off without a second glance, what would that change about her character? Apart from making her more ruthless, not a whole lot. We're supposed to be digging deeper into Cinder's character as we go along, pulling back the layers of her facade, of her persona that she created to gain power.

It was also stated in the commentary and in interviews that weaving Cinder and Neo together as partners was important. And they use the term "partners". Neo was joined with Cinder because specifically the CRWBY thought it would be interesting to give Cinder a "partner".

Seen below, making deals with Raven vs making deals with Neo.

Thirdly, Cinder seems to let a lot of her genuine expressions and self leak through around Neo. More so than anyone else.

These are expressions we've never seen before in this episode. Cinder has had a lot of practice keeping her true emotions under wraps, but obviously they leak through when she's tense or struggling to keep control.

I can see people suggesting that Cinder is a master manipulator and that these faces are a ploy to keep Neo in line.

As my friend reminded me, she isn't, that's the thing. She struggles with that. It doesn't come to her as easily as Salem. And there is such a stark difference between her expressions this time around and the ones she had before.

All in all, I could concede that Cinder is treating Neo like a subordinate... for now. After all, she's been doing it for the longest time with Mercury and Emerald. That kind of dynamic and manipulative behavior is hard to change at first. But I still believe there's a chance that Neo and Cinder may have a dynamic that is different. At the very least, the stark differences between her expressions and the way she lets Neo be sassy around her has me convinced that something is going to be very different here.

If a betrayal comes, it will mean something for both parties. It won't be the backstab we saw with Raven.

I think that bringing Neo back to be Cinder's partner has great potential and CRWBY'S writing has never let me down before, so I look forward to seeing what they have in mind.

You also have to keep in mind Cinder knows Neo can and will kill her. After all, Cinder fought Neo and was forced to use her maiden powers. If Neo was a maiden Cinder knows that Neo would have killed her and made sure of it. Cinder is afraid of Neo. and you are right about the parallels because I think the parallel here not of rwby but Red Vs Blue’s Flex and Locus. CInder Needs Neo. Not the other way around. Neo is Cinder’s ace in the hole and loophole to do things out of Salem’s controls. Neo Just wants to kill Ruby and damn well can.

Cinder knows Neo can and will kill her? Based on what? That they fought at lil Miss Malachite‘s place? The whole fight had been Neo pretty much lashing out at Cinder for Roman‘s death, for being left alone, for being hurt. She even let Cinder talk for a bit until she told her to take it up with little red. Neto showed her pain to her and even got a remorseful look from her. Pretty sure you don’t do that in front of your enemies, the ones you actually want to kill.

And Cinder also didn’t truly want to fight Neo. Both of them weren’t giving it their all, but Neo was driven by pain and hurt. Cinder used the only thing that could snap Neo out of this and would make her actually listen to her, using her maiden powers. I am simply baffled how there are still so many people actually thinking Neo was a better fighter than Cinder and that Cinder would have lost without her maiden powers. Like...no!

The fight wasn’t serious, not on Cinder’s side and I‘m pretty sure not on Neo‘s as well. So no, Cinder is not afraid of Neo and to assume that their partnership is only based on a onesided need is presumptuous. Neo is not an idiot, she knows exactly what great a tactician Cinder is and that teaming up with her is beneficial for both of them.

Lastly, their whole dynamic is based on a more evenly ground. They’re equals, partners, hell Neo is even able to just roll her eyes at Cinder’s dramatic shit and sass her. Sure she is miffed about Cinder pushing their revenge plans to a later point, but she also knows things have changed and that she should probably do what is wanted of her so they will achieve their goals in the end.

First calm down. Its just my opinion.

Second, Its actually based on all of Neo and Cinders different fights against other people and events. For explain, we all know that they can easily dispatch atlas soldiers and know when they can’t win a fight, Neo with Raven and Cinder with fall maiden alone and the white fang without maiden powers. They are both smart and cunning as well as badasses. However, Neo is the better fighter/killer. I say this because the writers confirm it. Remember the ruby vs Neo and Roman fight? They confirmed that Neo was holding back to protect roman. Even The fight with Yang You plainly see Neo is just playing with her the entire time, granted Yang was tired from a whole day of fighting with minimum rest. But a counter point is Cinder is more of a planner and because of her semblance she is much more sneaky when fighting, like getting into your mind hence the reason why she talks during the fights against actually strong opponents. 

Now I am not saying they weren’t on equal grounds but I believe that the Cinder NOW without the maiden power would LOSE against Neo NOW. I mean, When Cinder took out the fall maiden she needed the help from a trained killer and someone who can trick the mind. However, when she fought someone who was in even ground with her, Raven, she lost and was hurt BADLY. Remember when she first woke up she couldn’t even use her maiden powers properly. Plus, She only has one eyes and an arm that can’t be protected by aura. Yes, I know it can stretch and has claws but Neo’s semblance and skills with a blade make it so she wouldn’t have that arm much longer. Now look at Neo with nothing holding her back. She was beating Cinder throughout the fight, forcing Cinder to slowly use her maiden powers. Which Neo noticed and once outside started going in for the kill not giving Cinder the chance to talk, which is her greatest weapon. Hence Cinder pulling an avatar to get Neo to stop attack and realize they Cinder have more power then before, because again remember Neo only know Cinder with half the maiden powers and was only worried about protecting Roman. 

Also, Cinder isn’t and probably won’t be at 100% even again, If she doesn’t get more maiden powers that is. Don’t that mean Cinder can’t kill Neo now? No I know that Cinder can kill Neo anytime she wants too. The only problem is that Neo knows this and isn’t blindly following her like Mercury and Emerald and that is what worries Cinder, not scares her. They have a partnership, yes and work will together sure, but they both know that the other can AND WILL kill the other. They are just playing it smart and waiting for the right moment if it arrives because right now as you said they both want revenge and have other goals to achieve first.

And Third and last, This is just my opinion. We haven’t seen them in a while so they may have improven their relationship to the point Neo may not want to kill Cinder anymore... Which I just realized that if that is the case then This partnership works out a lot better for Cinder since once Ruby is dead Neo may just leave. That is if Salem doesn’t learn about her and asks her to join because than that would work out for and against Neo and Cinder if they want to kill eachother after this since Cinder shows she doesn’t like it when she can control people. but again. Just my opinion and thoughts.

First, I was calm when I wrote the last comment.

Second, all what you just said is based on the assumption that Cinder would fight the same way even without her maiden powers. Yes Neo never had problems in her fight, but she knew Raven was dangerous. Cinder fought against her and realized that her power alone wasn't going to let her win. And yet she was able to make Raven's aura flicker, giving us the hint that both if them were short of having theirs broken.

Yes, Cinder lost and mellowed out, but the reason she almost couldn't walk and use her powers had more to do with the fact that she had been in ice for quite a time and probably used the last of her strength to get out if the water.

We don't know what Cinder's training entailed and how she fights serious without her maiden powers...or even with a clear head. Cinder using talking as a weapon of sorts...maybe, but I think she just wants to feel powerful in that way that she can gloat over her opponent or tell them something hurtful so she can feel in control. For all if her fights she normally doesn't talk that much. With Pyrrha she only did so after she defeated her, with Raven she more so reacted on the situation. At first about the spring maiden and Raven's obvious use of her, then in the middle of the fight when Raven talks to her about her grimm arm and that aura can't protect it and then at the very end, where again, Raven starts the conversation.

Based on these fights it is pretty clear, Cinder tries to stop Neo from fighting her, because she doesn't want to fight her. She is not using her talk as a form of weapon or to get under Neo's skin. That's why she slowly uses more of her maiden powers...though maybe the flaming fist could also have been produced by her semblance now that I think about it. Anyway, Cinder uses her maiden powers to get Neo to listen to her and stop fighting her.

And Neo herself in a way started the conversation outside by slowly walking up to Cinder and giving her this painful look. Cinder reacts because of that, but has to realize that talking to her doesn't work at the moment, because Neo is in pain and just wants to lash out. And something else to note, Cinder is then trying to talk to her while they're fighting, costing her some nice jabs and blows to her eye wound.

So no, Neo isn't going in for the kill.

100%...makes it sound as if she was damaged somehow. Sure, she lost her left eye...but we don't know what else Salem has planned for her on that end. She wants Ruby alive after Cinder brought her up...so...maybe she's going to try to replace the eye as well. As for the arm, it's basically the same situation as Yang's, just that Cinder had to gain control over it before she could use it, so it has pros and cons. You forgot that her arm can also drain peoples aura.

You were the one throwing the word scares around, not me, I was just reacting to it. And yes I said they both want revenge, but not on each other. If Neo kills Cinder she would be all alone again and that is what she hated. It's clearly a topic in her song that she was now lost without Roman and revenge was her only driving force, it only states that she was now all alone. Our villains have a tendency to flock to each other and I'm sure it helps that Neo and Cinder already have some sort of relationship. They had to pretend to be students in Haven after all and later on Beacon.

And third, based on that and that they had to spend more time together by traveling to Atlas in the first place, I definitely believe Neo doesn't want to kill Cinder anymore, but she won't let herself treated as her subordinates and she makes clear Cinder knows that.

You make it sound as if Cinder feels nothing at all about their partnership which is clearly contradicted by how genuine her expressions look in this volume. So even after they maybe kill Ruby Cinder might be the one to ask her to join her, not Salem. Salem only recruited 4 people herself, nothing more, nothing less.

Would be interesting to see Cinder conflicted by her promise to Neo and her own orders.

Well, this is my interpretation and analyzing of the situation =)