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#emerald sustrai – @hoepunkausta on Tumblr
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Still Not Sure.

@hoepunkausta / hoepunkausta.tumblr.com

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Man, it sucks that with a show like RWBY that is focused around its female characters, people refuse to see the value of its female villains and their arcs.

Like seriously, the most love I see offered is for Neo and that's because she's quirky and "doesn't talk" which is just super cool to say about female characters on a female-centered show (please note, I'm not saying it's bad to relate to Neo for her muteness and everything she goes through, but I've literally heard "she's quiet" as a reason as why she's the best character... and yeah, that's call a sexism. You're doing a sexism.) I think Emerald also gets some love cos she was "Uwu so redeemable" but beyond that, I don't see her talked about a lot like the male villains get their flowers.

And don't even get me started on how people work their hardest to ignore the MAJOR ARCS Cinder, the primary female villain (besides Salem), goes through just because they want to have death fantasies about her because of Pyrrha. God forbid you engage with a villainous woman for two seconds to at least understand where she came from. Same with Salem.

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intro-v

The character Cinder “redemption wanters” want already exists and her name is Emerald Sustrai

No we don’t

Emerald is the Zuko type, the Fundamentally good person who was on the Wrong side

Get that outta here

We’re hear to see a Garbage fire person be put through the wringer and actually grow.

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hoepunkausta

Finally someone said it.

What’s wrong with seeing a person who has been nothing but bad due to the circumstances in their life actually changing and becoming something better?

If Emerald is the farthest people can lose themselves to become redeemable, then boy, the rest of Remnant is really screwed then.

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hoepunkausta

When I hear people whine that either Ilia’s or now Cinder’s current arc should have gone to Adam, there is this illicit and deep appreciation I feel towards CRWBY for paying absolutely no heed to them.

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fandomdojo

+ Emerald and basically any female character that may do any tiny action that would move her towards the morally grey area

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strqyr

I think instead of killing Cinder or fighting her like I've seen speculated(and how it could happen) I think a more satisfying conclusion for Em and Cinders subplot would just be Emerald calling out Cinder like Yang did to Raven.

(And of course Emerald healing after)

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honestly, i think that’s the most likely scenario, especially if emerald is going to leave cinder as well by the end of this volume or the next. it’d be a satisfying conclusion (or at least a turning point) without cutting short any other plotlines that cinder has.

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Cinder's parallels with Raven deepening? Emerald mirroring Yang's own journey of beginning to ask questions to forge her own path? Cinder and Emerald separating WITHOUT having Cinder killed/left to die? We love to see it!

But in all honesty, I do hope they go this way. Given the nature of their relationship I hope that they end uo taking this route. I mean, Emerald's been through a LOT with Cinder. Has spent years caring about her and seeing the good in her when no one else has. She's not just going to chuck all that out the window. It makes sense for her to try and appeal to Cinder when they first encounter each other again. Try to get across how Salem doesn't care about them, is actively hurting Cinder and is trying to get everyone killed. Make a last ditch effort for Cinder to see sense and leave before writing her off.

And if Cinder doesn't listen, if she rejects Emerald's attempts to care for her (which let's be honest, with her past actions and all that unresolved emotional trauma she seems likely to do), it'd be really satisfying/interesting to have Emerald basically go "You know what? Fine. I'm done" and call her out. Give that Yang/Raven style verbal shakedown. Bluntly call Cinder on her shit. Make it clear that she still believes there is good in Cinder, but that she's done wasting her life waiting for her to choose to accept it and finally leave.

Idk. It. . .feels like an event that would parallel an already established dynamic fairly well while putting both characters in an interesting position in terms of character growth/arcs. Break this emotional co-dependence they have going on (and in Cinder's case, have been using to avoid difficult emotions) to be in better positions to grow as people.

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luimnigh

I was about to make a post for this then thought- shit-I I know the person that could probably analyse this best XD.

I was thinking about the Salem>Cinder>Emerald+Mercury cycle of abuse. After Volume 8 We've seen to what extent Salem can manipulate Cinder, and I was wondering if Cinder has actively manipulated Emerald + Mercury to the same level?

What are the differences between:

Salem>Cinder’s relationship

Vs

Cinder>Emerald + Mercury's relationship?

Thanks!

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Both Salem and Cinder portray themselves as saviours to their victims. “Follow me, do as I say, and you can have all you’ve ever wanted”. 

The difference between them ultimately seems to be that Salem puts in the effort to maintain the power dynamic, while Cinder expects that the promise will be enough.

And that makes sense. Cinder is copying Salem, but Cinder isn’t aware enough of her own abuse to copy it perfectly, and to be quite honest if she was aware enough there’s a good chance she would have broken free of the cycle. 

Cinder just doesn’t maintain her control over Emerald and Mercury like Salem does. The one time we see Cinder do so, for lack of a better word, is when we hear her slap Emerald during End of the Beginning. Emerald questions Cinder’s decision making over letting Mercury join their team, and Cinder uses physical force to put an end to the questioning, and reinforce the power dynamic: she is in charge, Emerald is not her equal. 

I don’t think Cinder is even thinking in those terms, of course. She’s just been taught that when you talk back to your betters, you get punished. 

All in all, while it is manipulation, it’s manipulation in a very blunt manner. It’s honest, in a way. Mercury is fully aware that he’s being used, but he doesn’t care because Cinder is effectively holding up her end of the bargain, right until she isn’t around anymore. Emerald didn’t know she was being used, because she was convinced Cinder cared for her. Because Cinder clothed her, fed her, took her off the streets. Like a parent would.

Did Cinder knowingly cultivate this attitude? I’m honestly unsure. In the past, I accepted it as a given that she did, but as we’ve seen more of them, I’m not sure she set out to create this dynamic. I’m honestly uncertain she knows it exists, given the way she’s neglected it from the beginning. 

She might just view the relationship as transactional. But Emerald wants something more, something that Cinder isn’t giving, if she recognizes the desire at all. And it’s the neglect of that desire that is destroying Emerald’s loyalty, because Emerald never really wanted the food, the clothes, the security. Emerald wanted love. 

Meanwhile, Salem is absolutely putting in much more effort to manipulate Cinder in a more subtle manner. She doesn’t just want Cinder’s loyalty in exchange for power, she is actively trying to influence Cinder’s behaviour and thoughts. Salem dedicates time to Cinder’s recovery in Volume 4, instead of handing her off to Watts or another doctor. She attempts to motivate Cinder, to make Cinder want to push herself instead of being pushed. 

She let Cinder orchestrate the Fall of Beacon solo, teaching her all the skills she needed and gave her free reign on how to accomplish it. 

On the other hand, when she wants to crush Atlas, Watts and Tyrian are ultimately the warmup act, as she goes to actually complete it herself. 

She also does her best to isolate Cinder. She shows disdain when Cinder arrives on the Whale with Neo, and Mercury’s promotion is an obvious attempt to take away from Cinder’s potential support system. She also blatantly tested Emerald’s loyalty to Cinder against Emerald’s fear of Salem, and was pleased to see that the fear won out. 

And when Cinder’s loyalty wavers, she changes up how she punishes Cinder (previous stopping her from going after Maidens vs now simply hurting her with the Grimm arm) and apologizes for getting in the way of Cinder’s desires with her previous punishment While she wants Cinder to understand that disobeying her is wrong, she also wants Cinder to see her in a positive light. She wants Cinder to think that she cares. 

I still see speculation that Cinder is disposable in a way, that Salem’s ultimate plan ends with Cinder dead. I’ve fallen for that mindset myself. 

But Salem is absolutely trying to create something out of Cinder. To mold her into something new. She has poured time and effort into crafting Cinder Fall as we know her, and the work is not yet complete. 

Salem wants more than loyalty out of Cinder. What she wants, I’m not sure. 

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strqyr
Anonymous asked:

Ok you keep talking about Cinder surviving to the end, the second biggest problem for that fact after grimmification is Emerald, other than CRWBY loves to make the victim of abuse win over her abuser. all the damn "She doesn't care about you." He seems set on giving Emerald power. added Locus (green) he killed Felix (orange) and inherited the sword (aura colors?) and for the record it is a route that I completely dislike.

death isn’t the only way that can be done. i mean, jacques got arrested, and i’d even argue that blake’s victory over adam already happened at haven when she stood against him. besides, it would also put cinder in a weird position, because then she wouldn’t win against her abuser.

here’s the thing about the whole “does cinder care about emerald (or mercury)?” debate: it’s not about them. whether cinder cares or not doesn’t (or shouldn’t) change a thing about emerald’s or mercury’s arcs.

no, whether cinder cares or not is about cinder herself. the answer to that question helps us understand cinder better and what type of a person she really is. that’s what it’s about.

i haven’t watched rvb in a long while so i can’t really comment much on that, other than that rvb is rvb and rwby is rwby. they’re two different shows. sharing some of the writers matters very little because these characters are completely different with their own arcs.

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hoepunkausta

This interests me because it’s been one of the biggest points of concern for me. If Cinder herself has abused (and she has), then the normal logic dictates that she must pay for it dearly and that she should be killed by Emerald or Mercury or maybe both. It feels like a lot of other shows would handle that in the same manner.

And I would agree with them usually. That seems like the usual course. But then we get Cinder’s backstory which isn’t important to any other character (yet, there is still time) but her. Salem’s backstory changes what everyone knows about the world. Cinder’s backstory explains who she is and why she feels she needs to do what she does. It’s heavy but certainly it doesn’t explain the circumstance behind the lore and world of Remnant.

But it does explain her. And it changes the story from here on out. If Emerald is at the bottom of the chain of abuse and Salem is at the top (or maybe the Gods), then Cinder has found herself in the middle of it.

And CRWBY has put a lot of time and effort in lot showing that chain and how it happened. Showing how each character maybe benefits but ultimately suffers. For as much as Emerald is hurt, you can’t tell me that Cinder is happy in her place either. That she isn’t scared of what she’s becoming. And you can’t tell me that Salem isn’t tired of living.

I think what is shown is that destroying a chain of abuse isn’t about the bottom link slaughtering the others in vengeance. If so, then another chain of abuse can easily rise up anywhere. It does nothing. When Adam died, Blake and Yang put there foot forward and decided to talk and change their perspectives, agreeing it was something they don’t want to see again.

To win against your abuser doesn’t necessarily mean being able to kill them. It means being free, healing and having your own life on your terms. Emerald and Mercury need it. A life and a chance to do good. Same for Cinder. She wouldn’t win killing Salem. Nor can she. She didn’t win as a child when she killed her abusers (deserved as it was) but was instead looked on as a mistake and learned to run.

At this point, killing and death doesn’t do anything for Remnant. It doesn’t spark change or understanding so that people can stop it from happening again. Even Oscar has changed his perspective and in doing so is changing’s Ozpin’s. Redeeming the villains, as many as they can, and changing their perspective on the world and what it can be is the best to offer hope for Remnant.

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On Cinder Fall. . .

Now that we have Cinder's backstory, it really made me reevaluate her relationship with Emerald and Mercury.

In the past Volumes, it almost seemed like it was a fluke that she recruited Emerald and Mercury, or at least she only did it for their powers, but now I'm starting to wonder if she was drawn to them due to how their upbringings aligned with hers.

Cinder was abused, even before she was essentially made a slave for the Atlas elite. The other kids in the Orphanage pushed her around, and she was dirty and hungry enough to eat bread off of the floor when her new caretaker (using that word lightly) tossed it towards her.

Compare that to when she first meets Emerald, who was filthy and living on the streets, and who just stole some bread because she was starving.

Then there's Mercury, who was raised by an abusive father, only to finally get revenge and kill him, just like how Cinder eventually kills her own abusers.

I think Cinder saw herself in them, and whether she realizes it or not, she cares about them. That's why she looks so sad when Mercury says he won't be working for her anymore.

Not condoning her treatment of them, of course, I just think Cinder is scared to let them get close, scared to be vulnerable, because the last person she trusted enough to let in (Rhodes) betrayed her.

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Ngl I’m not super excited for the next RWBY panel stream since they’ll be having Emerald’s VA. Which is cool. But I just know someone is gonna try to get her take on Emerald and Cinder’s abusive relationship. And then the theorists in this FNDM are gonna use it as confirmation that Cinder spends her free time beating Emerald and Mercury all day or that she would emotionally drain them until they were husks like Adam.

And at that point, why even pretend she’ll get any semblance of a redemption? By that point, the FNDM will accept nothing more than just a redemption by death.

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reblogged

Emerald + Mercury = Cinder

BEGINNING OF THE END = MIDNIGHT

The episodes Beginning of the End and Midnight can be seen as complementary.

Both share a similar structure with the first part telling Cinder’s story and the second part showing how past events are influencing the present. At the same time, they show the links among Cinder, Emerald and Mercury and explore their changing dynamic.

In Beginning of the End it is shown how they came together and we reach the climax of their cooperation. The Fall of Beacon is when the trio is at its strongest. It is only because of their coordination and teamwork that the plan succeeds. In Midnight instead we are shown the beginning of their separation.

For different reasons (fears and wishes) both Mercury and Emerald are about to leave Cinder. Mercury already has and it is probable Emerald will soon.

The two episodes also give us two opposite and complementary visions of Cinder.

In Beginning of the End, we have the way Cinder wants to appear:

Cinder: (stepping forward slowly, glass anklet shifting with her footsteps) I’ve already told you. And I don’t like repeating myself.
Salem: I would like to think I have shown a great deal of patience over my many years walking Remnant. But I do hate repeating myself.
Mercury: Is this how you treat a patient? (Emerald reaches over and twists the screwdriver in his leg, causing him to wince) Ah, too tight!
Cinder: Enough. Our Mercury put on a wonderful show. He was quite brave.
Salem: Do you find such malignance necessary?
Watts: I apologize, ma'am. I’m not particularly fond of failure.
Salem: Then I see no reason for your cruelty towards young Cinder. She’s become our Fall Maiden, destroyed Beacon Tower, and most importantly, killed dear Ozpin. So I’m curious, to what failures are you referring?

In Midnight we see who she really is. Moreover, it becomes more and more clear that her imitation of Salem is different from the original:

Salem: I will tell you when and where you are needed.
Cinder: Both of you, get out. I’ll let you know when you’re needed next.
Mercury: Yeah about that, Salem’s got other plans for me. I’m not gonna be taking orders from you anymore.

Why is this being shown through her interactions with Emerald and Mercury? Why are they important for Cinder’s character?

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reblogged

All things considered, it’s probably a good thing that Emerald is running now, before Cinder starts to actually want her affection as well as her loyalty. She’s had it for a while, but she hasn’t really wanted it, because she had power and as far as she was considered that was enough for her. But she’s failing, the power isn’t enough, and Emerald is there ready and willing to give her the affection and emotional support she’s starting to crave. If her abuse of Emerald is this bad when all she wants is obedience, it would become so much worse if she moves on to demanding Emerald’s love.

And Emerald would have given her that happily, probably still will even if she leaves Salem. But if they meet on opposite sides of the field, Cinder will break her heart and ensure that will never happen.

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astoria00

Okay, everyone has their own opinion and their right to express that, so I will give mine to what you just proposed.

You essentially said Cinder wouldn’t shy away from forcing Emerald to give her affection. That can mean a number of things, but if we go romantically that reads as sexual abuse at worst and breaking a whole lot of boundaries at the very least. And frankly it’s disgusting.

That’s not who Cinder is, nor has it ever been. Emerald and Cinder are people who both suffer from Trauma in their own way. For Emerald to cope she developed a codependency on Cinder. Cinder’s way to cope was redefining her identity and tying it to the most powerful person she knew. Why am I bringing this up?

Because those are still different forms of coping, for different problems. Emerald still believes in the good of people, Cinder doesn’t. Now the type of affection Cinder could begin to crave if she spirals farther down is not something she could even get from Emerald. Cinder doesn’t like touch, she seems to almost fear it. If she ever gets to that low if a point that she would crave it enough to override her fear she would go to another person first and that would be Salem, the one she tries to imitate, who she build her identity after and who treats her as an extension of herself, because Salem has seen her weak and vulnerable before. Cinder wants her mentor figures’ affection…she always has. It’s in a similar vein as Emerald wants hers.

Salem knows Cinder craves affection deep down and she hates being alone, which is why she brings back other people she sees herself in. And Salem wants that system gone, so Cinder is entirely hers again. She started with Mercury and Emerald would probably have been next because they give Cinder a sense of her own identity.

If Cinder was at a point craving affection, she would make sure to be the one giving it to her, not Emerald.

Sorry, I just had to add this, because Cinder is many things, but not that.

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hoepunkausta

Again, if all Cinder does is abuse Emerald and Mercury all day and night, then why should I bother with this redemption shit? Jesus Christ. These posts never fucking end.

Honestly I can't believe I read an actual meta post on how Cinder would engage in rape with Emerald because she now "craves affection" and Emerald would let her.

You all are fucking sick. I get it already. Cinder is the ultimate abuser.

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strqyr

Honestly I'm just a little annoyed that everyone believes Emerald and Mercury will be best friends with Ruby and co while a Cinder redemption means she will be alone forever if she lives.

I mean if that's the case, maybe a redemption by death is better for Cinder.

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yeah, i agree but i’m not surprised. this fndm has a habit of just kinda... ignoring the role emerald and mercury played in fall of beacon. especially in emerald’s case, she pretended to be friendly with team rwby, and that’s not something you can just wave away.

at least i hope they don’t. it would be utterly disappointing if emerald and mercury get redeemed and everything they’ve done to this point is instantly forgotten because reasons.

and i’m still holding out hope that a cinder redemption includes her being buddy-buddy with at least one person, and if it’s more, then even better. it works with the show’s themes, and narratively it makes no sense to redeem cinder and keep her alone, with everyone hating her. that would require for them to come up with new storylines for cinder specifically until the end of the show. plus, they already had plans for “cinder alone”... and then they added neo to the mix. 

i've said before that cinder being alone post-redemption is a possibility, but right now... i just can’t see them doing it anymore.

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