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something bordering on weird

@flyingfish1 / flyingfish1.tumblr.com

Fangirl. Fan of fandom. Recovering lurker. Introvert. She/her. Multifandom blog. SPN, Black Sails, OFMD, Good Omens, etc. Also contains sporadic meta, stuff about writing, recipes, and cats.
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Thank you to our donor, who wishes to remain anonymous:

8.16 "Remember the Titans" (2nd Unit Call Sheet + Script Sides):

8.17 "Goodbye Stranger" (Day 8: Call Sheet + Script Sides):

8.19 "Taxi Driver" (Day 6: Call Sheet + Script Sides):

You can see all of the other scripts we have here. If you hit the Slideshare viewing limit, Google -> slideshare ngelmat. To buy scripts we need donations, and the more people are involved the smaller the hit everyone takes. To help with this, we have set up a discord server. It is a fandom neutral zone so as many people as possible feel comfortable joining.

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rootsunknown

Cas, Relationships, and Belonging

In 8x17, “Goodbye Stranger,” we witness these two parallel exchanges:

“Why are you so sweet on me, Clarence?”
“I don’t know.”
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“What broke the connection?”
“I don’t know.”

Now, it’s no news to us that Cas often has trouble expressing and making sense of his emotions and understanding how he relates to those around him. It is, however, news to Cas himself, in the sense that it is finally something he is going to have to deal with. In the past, it was easy enough to think in terms of enemies and allies, inferiors and superiors, friends and foes. When Dean was his friend, Dean’s brother was naturally his friend. When Dean said he was family, Cas assured Dean he thought so too. Now, with one family pitted against another, with a former business partner torturing his own, with those he tried to give freewill taking his away, Cas is finding that allegiance and affection aren’t as simple and static as he’s thought, and all of these connections are being poked and prodded and tested by the narrative as Cas discovers his place, not only in the world, but in his variously complicated relationships as well.

The above exchanges highlight the commonality between Cas’ relationships with Meg and with Dean. Whether we, as viewers, want to label this commonality in any qualifiable way is irrelevant. Whether we see love one place and lust another, a crush or a friendship or comradery somewhere else, the commonality is nevertheless a resounding “I don’t know” on the part of Cas himself, because Cas as of yet doesn’t know how to label his relationships in a way that would allow him to fully inhabit either those relationships or his world at large. This, at this point in the season, is Cas’ tragedy.

The answer to this unasked question, then—this “I don’t know”—is one that Cas must answer if he is to begin building a life for himself with the people he cares about. Unfortunately, for Cas and Meg, the opportunity—the “if we survive this”—has passed. For Dean and Cas, however, discovering that answer is going to be a major thread necessary in tying up not only the relationship itself, but also Cas’ own ability to belong confidently and healthily to his own social network.

For many, “Goodbye Stranger” was disappointing for the questions it refused to answer, and that’s perfectly understandable. But, structurally, this wasn’t an episode that wanted or needed to answer questions, but, rather, the point at which they had to be asked. By admitting that he doesn’t know, Cas pledges to figure it out—and that is precisely what is going to kick off the rest of Cas’ journey for this season (and likely into the next), as he struggles to figure out where he belongs and how he belongs there, as well as what that means for who he is and who he is to others.

“So which Cas are you? Original make and model or crazy-town?”
“I’m just me.”

The question now, at this point in the story, is what it’s going to take for Cas to figure out who “me” really is.

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reblogged

What exactly qualifies as a “crypt scene”?

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It’s a complicated equation that goes like

external influence, causing violence/uncontrollable behaviour, broken by a close friend with unstated but romantic interest on the side of the controlled one, who is not a blood family member, unrequited in interest, just a friend/colleague, or actually an enemy. If it’s a blood family member/otherwise non-blood but obvious paternal/maternal tie instead it becomes a swan song parallel. 

That’s a lot to hold in your head but it’s really important to track how it all works and the patterns established around it. 1x22 set up the Swan Song parallel which Sam had failed in 1x10 when he was affected with the anger ghost affliction and it was all a progress from there to get him to the Swan Song moment where he manages not to kill Dean, as John had done in 1x22 when possessed with Azazel. I strongly doubt the actual plot was plotted, but the themes were clear that this was the long-term arc and the show skates around it from season 1 right through. 

In season 7, Bobby is the last victim of a Swan Song parallel before Carver era, and in 7x23 he is beating the crap out of Sam against the side of a vehicle when he sees his own reflection in the van window and realises what he’s doing and pulls himself back from the vengeful brink and is allowed to move on. 

In 11x14, Cas manages to stop Lucifer from exploding Sam all over the Bunker, but then, curiously, hands back control in order to save Dean, showing a weird distinction in confrontation types. Casifer never attacks Dean in the same way, and their confrontation is staged utterly differently. 

In Dabb era, where things are more kaleidoscopic in parallel nature, Mary also gets a fairly standard one of these in 12x03 which is a much later loop back to the original, and the conclusion of 13x23 is Lucifer failing it vs Jack and his OWN NATURE, which had been the attacking force in 5x22 after all, and it’s a Dabb era level subversion which hands Jack over to his true family (via all the challenging them to kill each other that Lucifer did which took the whole parallel out of his hands in a way and abstracted it into theirs) and reveals that Lucifer is abusive and unredeemable to Jack and I would HOPE now with every member of the blood and non-blood family successfully indoctrinated into it we don’t need any more of these direct Swan Song parallels. 

So why are the crypt scene parallels different and stand out from this pattern? In Carver era there’s a strong side branch of these stories of supernatural control and begging people to stop with a very specific nature which fits this formula from above, where romance is involved in the main parallels, or absence of romance. There are multiple instances where family connections fail to break it, and comments like “I know you’re in there” and other dialogue from the Crypt Scene in 8x17 are thrown around, before and after that moment, where the pass and fail rate is directly connected to whether there is a romantic connection or not. This starts early on in season 8, from Dean being rage-possessed by the spectre and not stopping for Sam, to Charlie being the means Gilda breaks control from the spellbook, through to season 11 where the Soul Eater refuses to let Sam’s “i know you’re in there” stop it when it attacks him as Dean. Other scenes are staged in the same way with other elements, from the 8x16 set up with the Prometheus and Artemis parallel the episode before the crypt scene, through to the fantastically convoluted method of Mick being the one torn with a mental control he couldn’t break and Sam protecting Eileen while trying to talk Mick out of it, or Ishim taunting Dean that banishing him would kill Cas after he was the one who violently attacked Cas with visual framing almost identical to the direction of 10x22 in some respects and getting Dean to back off from that to protect Cas. All with parallels to his own relationship - romantically coded - with Lily.

And then there’s Thomas J Wright, who directed, yep, 12x10, and 10x22 and 8x17 and 11x21 which had its own odd twist on it, and a bunch of other episodes with suspiciously similar framing and attacks. 10x22 stands out because it has the exact same framing as an attack by a controlled Jensen-acted character against a romantically connected character in Dark Angel, which he ALSO directed. 10x22 also by their own admission had a fight scene they changed, with Misha, Jensen and TJW all agreeing to frame it differently, with Cas refusing to fight back, and the stabbing the book while straddling Cas thing clearly came from TJW’s own personal notebook of favourite confrontation ideas given he’d filmed such a similar one early in his career. He’s also added little bits of unscripted storytelling via the direction in his episodes which continue to build up this idea, such as the Amara touching Cas’s heart to contact Dean silent suggestion, and we don’t know if the back and forth in the scenes where they save Lucifer (and by that we mean Cas) later in that episode but again the dialogue between Amara and Dean weirdly parallels what’s going on there as if they broke a connection. 9x23 also directed by him includes the side by side of Cas smashing the angel tablet and Dean falling to the floor with a huge thunderclap after Metatron has stabbed him, perhaps highlighting the irony that Cas did the thing to save Dean seconds after Dean was stabbed, but also “breaking the connection” between the angel tablet, a source of powerful supernatural magic, and Metatron, who was causing violence against Dean, who was not fully in control of himself and about to lose what control he had left as he died and became a demon powered completely by his id, a reverse crypt scene where the reverse was not so much who was a participant but the effects of a failure. Of course the angel tablet was the fought-over artefact in 8x17. And in 9x22, the previous episode, Cas might not have been controlled, but Hannah, dressed like Naomi and sounding an awful lot like her too, challenged Cas between an us and them with killing Dean in the centre of it, to which he said “I can’t.”

We knew the real reverse crypt scene was coming pretty much immediately in season 9 after Dean got the Mark and we were worrying he’d be controlled by it and become violent and maybe attack Cas, who was paired with him by the Colette parallel. In the end Cas asked Dean to stop, as per Colette, and we got the reverse crypt scene where Dean attacked Cas while under the control of the Mark, and only stopped himself killing Cas at the last moment before walking away. Of course, we also knew it was going to happen like that because in 10x13 a trenchcoat-wearing wife pleaded her raging vengeful ghost husband to stop hurting people (while he was about to kill Dean), and her words were enough to let the husband pass on into peace. 

Now Dean’s controlled again, but it’s by Michael, which means we could get a lot of different variations. Dean’s never had this sort of mytharc possession in a way that mirrors Sam being possessed by Lucifer, so a Swan Song flip between them is now a card on the table. But a reverse crypt scene style encounter between Michael and Cas might too. They could look very superficially similar, and Michael could also attack Mary, Bobby and now Jack, who are all inducted into the family via takes on this. The interesting difference is going to be in how it’s told and maybe just even who is directing what encounters, what parallels are offered and what language is used, down to whether it’s repeating things phrased one word or the other difference between conversation from 8x17 or 5x22 or other variations of these 2 thematic trees… If it fits Swan Song parallels it’s about family, but the crypt scene style parallels are the ones written with romantic language, and only used in scenarios where romance is implied, or to show it fails when romance isn’t present, even in encounters between characters for whom a Swan Song parallel would work perfectly. 

(Funnily enough, in 12x22, it’s Toni, the Naomi parallel, who puts Mary and Dean under, after manipulating Mary, but Dean’s speech to her mirrors ones to John in season 2, and a father/daughter mirror in 3x05, but it’s Ketch who wakes them both up and breaks Toni’s control :P)

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reblogged

13x19 - Episode Review - Part 1 - Castiel Faces His Past

This episode was amazing in so many ways, and each time I have re-watched it over the past few days I have discovered something else to love.

What I loved most of all next to Rowena doing the Tango was how this episode was a subtextual movie reel of Castiel’s biggest hits and misses. So that’s what part one of my review of this episode is going to be focusing on.

But first let me just say that I swear to god if the next episode doesn’t start with Dean taking Cas to a night club and doing the dimples of discontent whilst Cas gets hit on by all manner of beautiful men and women I am going to be very upset. Cas has spoken. Take your husband to a damn party Dean! :P

But in all seriousness, I fucking love Steve Yokey. The spotlight on Sam and his choices and fate and destiny and how he is now tied to Rowena is the kind of plot line I can get behind, and the Cas stuff… Oh boy I have been starved of Cas stuff lately and this episode was my Oasis.

For Castiel, this episode was all about facing his past, and having to come to terms with it, and to put aside old conflicts to focus on the bigger picture. This is only Yokey’s third attempt at writing Cas, the first being 12x10 Lily Sunder has Some Regrets, the second being 13x12 Various and Sundry Villains and really, these two episodes say it all. Yokey writes Cas well.

Cas focused episode review continues under the cut. It gets long down there.

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THIS IS HOW YOU DO A REDEMPTION ARC.

YOU GIVE THE CHARACTER A CHOICE TO CONTINUE TO DO EVIL, TO DO WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT SEASONS AGO.

AND THEN THEY CHOOSE ANOTHER WAY!!!

“THERE WAS A TIME YOU WOULD HAVE, BUT NOT NOW!!”

This is why Meg’s so-called redemption arc (or when people consider Meg good because of 8x17) doesn’t work for me.

Meg was never presented a choice like Rowena was. Unlike Rowena, at the height of her power, Meg was weak from a year of torture, ally-less save for the begrudging involvement of the winchesters, and at the end of her rope. She had no options - even if she had somehow escaped, she would have just spent the rest of her immortal life running from Crowley again. So instead she makes the choice to face her impending demise head-on. Yeah, it’s lampshaded that she does it for Cas (or because of Cas, depending on your interpretation) knowing that she’ll never catch that unicorn (especially when that unicorn has a unicorn of his own) that she’ll always be a sexual predator that uses and abuses people. But is there really any doubt that she wouldn’t have attempted to kill Crowley either way, given that she hated him since s5? This isn’t a true redemption arc, this isn’t about Meg being redeemed, or feeling remorse for her actions. This was about temporarily aligning with free will and going down fighting, moving from chaotic evil to neutral evil. Not so much ‘kinda good’ as ‘not so much evil.’ 

Rowena, on the other hand, had a choice. We start the episode believing Rowena has fallen back into her old ways, killing for pleasure, or because people had gotten in her way once she was done using them. The old her would have killed Sam without a second thought, no fuss no muss. But she didn’t - further more, she couldn’t. She couldn’t kill Sam, the one person on this planet capable of empathizing with her trauma. Even knowing Sam was destined to kill her, Rowena would have felt his lost, felt guilt or remorse or some actual emotion if she killed him. This isn’t side-stepping from chaotic evil to neutral evil, this is an actual step towards redemption. Progress, as Dean had said. And I sincerely believe Rowena wants to continue down that road.

Earlier, when you were confessing back there…what did you say? I only ask because, given my history…it raises the question… Where do I start…to even look for forgiveness? I mean… 

Hmm, interesting how Rowena in this episode seemed so much like her nearly-human son in 8x23.

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reblogged
Anonymous asked:

I feel like this is probably something you have a lot of thoughts on, but you don't have to go in depth if you don't want (if you do that's also great!) Do you think about cas classifying dean as family and vice versa is a hurdle to be overcome if textual d/c is a thing that's happening? Obviously family includes your significant other, but as far as fiction, I feel like it's code for platonic feelings, because I try to think of any tv couple that started as "family" and I can't. Thanks :)

Hi! I’m sorry I’ve been sitting on this message for a couple of days, but it’s not actually something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. At least not specifically like this.

I mean, the first thing that came to mind at your question was @destieldrabblesdaily‘s post from back during s11 (aah, s11 gave us so much…) about how they were slowly ticking off all these things from a checklist labeled “Obstacles to Canon.”

There are four main points on Shirley’s list, only two of which I think are so completely obvious in canon now that there’s really nothing more to say on either subject:

  • the vessel consent issue: It’s Cas’s body. There’s no Jimmy in there. Cas has been rebuilt and resurrected multiple times by God, died and been burned, and came back from the empty with what must be yet another entirely new physical body. That is Castiel’s body. Period. There’s no “but what if…” left to argue on this point.
  • the concern that the show would morph into something it’s not: the focus of the show wouldn’t somehow shift to Dean and Cas’s romantic adventures. It wouldn’t become a comedy, or exclude Sam. The tone and format of the show wouldn’t need to change at all, and that was pretty conclusively proved not only back in 11.19 with the way Jesse and Cesar’s relationship was presented, but *waves hand across all of s13* the show’s gonna do what the show’s always done. Nothing needs to change about the show’s format or structure.

The other two points might be conclusively obvious to some of us (and honestly I have personally been satisfied by how they continue to handle these issues), but there’s still ground they CAN cover toward making these things more explicit for the general audience. And I’d argue that they HAVE been doing just that consistently, and even rather explicitly now in s13:

  • Dean’s sexuality: Shirley’s original post covered this extremely well from where we were back in s11 (so go read that right now if you haven’t already). I’ve added a heck of a lot to my Dean Is Bi tag since 11.19, so I’d argue that at the very least it’s not something they’ve tried to back away from over the last few seasons. They may not have come out and explicitly said it in so many words, but the show has continued to escalate the subtext to the point where even the general audience has been noticing it in droves.
  • The Bromance Zone: Back in Shirley’s original post, this was accepted as fairly conclusively evident from Dean’s pining for Cas back in s11, and how it was made painfully and explicitly clear in 11.18… but whoa have we ever had a lot of logs thrown on the bromance pyre since then. And I think this is the point you’re concerned about in your question above.

You stated you couldn’t think of a single romantic couple in fiction that began as “family” or, I suppose in this case as “found family,” or “family of choice.” But I’d like to suggest that most successful romantic couples do begin as friends, regardless of whether they consider each other “family” before their relationship becomes romantic.

Confession time: I have never watched the show Friends, but I believe they considered themselves a sort of found family, right? And there was at least one pair of them that were actually brother and sister? And didn’t several of them become romantically involved by the end of the series? I remember seeing posts to this effect, but correct me if I’m wrong…

Another canon ship that’s often been paralleled to destiel is Castle/Beckett. If you’ve never watched Castle, they’re a pretty textbook enemies to friends to lovers to HEA, and it took like five seasons for them to get to that point. Thing is, the nature of the work they did together (police work) created the same sort of “found family” feelings that the Winchesters’ collection of allies and friends has. And their relationship included so many of the same tropes that Dean and Cas has… right down to the “deathbed love confessions,” amnesia, miscommunication, mutual pining… you name it… And we thought FIVE YEARS was a slow burn. Thing is, every time they seemed to get close to making some sort of dramatic love confession, for years, they’d back down at the last moment for one reason or another. For YEARS, they settled for what could arguably be considered a sort of familial closeness, because that’s all they thought they could have. Circumstance just kept stepping in the way…

So on that note, I’d argue that practically EVERY slow burn romantic endgame story progressed through this “awkward found family” stage. They’re closer than what could be called “friends” in the strictest platonic sense of the word, but short of confessing undying romantic love and attraction, the strongest word in their vocabulary for the care and affection they feel they’re allowed to demonstrate to one another is family.

So back to Supernatural…

S12 approached this issue from two directions for most of the season, with a Compare/Contrast using Mary’s story paralleled to Castiel’s for most of the season, showing us a distinct difference between what FAMILY feels and does for one another, and whatever the heck it is that Dean and Cas feel and do for one another. On the other side of the coin, they doubled down on demonstrating the blatant differences from how Sam sees Cas as a brother, and how Dean sees Cas as a /////brother/////. It was demonstrated over and over again that despite using the same word to describe what Cas is to them, it’s unequivocally DIFFERENT for Dean. That leaves us to wonder WHY.

12.10 makes it clear what the angels believe Dean is to Cas, his “human weakness.” We were shown Dean’s feelings for and connection to Cas, that Dean refused to save himself from Ishim when he knew that using the banishing sigil could possibly have injured Cas further, or even killed him. It wasn’t a risk he was willing to take. That moment may have been a small part of that episode, but right there, Dean had no reason to believe that Ishim wasn’t about to murder him. He surrendered his own life for Cas.

12.12 has Cas’s deathbed love confession, which people are still debating from a linguistic standpoint. But I’d argue that the fact we’re able to debate it at all is even further evidence that it’s something that we’re supposed to be thinking about, and wondering about. Or else why would it even be a debate in the first place.

12.15 has Cas disappearing back to Heaven, the ambiguous phone call moment where Sam hangs up with Mary and signs off with “Love you,” while Dean hangs up with Cas. Loads of us had a holy hell did Dean just say that??? moment and had to rewind to confirm that it was Sam saying it to Mary. Because of that debate left over from 12.12. Again, the fact that we all had to stop and blink at the implication shows that something is definitely different now.

Which brings us to freaking 12.19 and the goddamned mixtape. No amount of Bro and Pal and Buddy on Dean’s part can negate “It’s a gift, you keep those.” Sorry folks, them’s the rules.

And can we talk for a moment about how explicitly clear s13 has made Dean’s feelings, his grief that he textually admitted by yelling it all in Sam’s face was all about Cas. Grief so powerful it somehow activated Jack’s powers (which he had no control of at that point and didn’t even understand that his powers had any part in Cas’s resurrection even after 13.06) and poked Cas awake in the Empty.

And then we have 13.06. I still haven’t recovered from 13.06.

The connection between Dean and Cas intensifies in 13.07, both through Dean giving Cas that same line from 12.10 (Don’t do anything stupid) which he clarified back in s12 wasn’t borne of anger, but of worry. Worry that 12.12 had honed into love, and 13.01 punched us all in the face with as Dean broke down and screamed his grief at God. I mean, the differences between how Sam considers Cas “family” and how Dean does is inarguable at this point.

I’d suggest that the definition of “family” isn’t so much something the show needs to clarify at this point, but something that’s been written all over the last season and a half in invisible ink, and all they need to do at this point is hold it up to a light bulb for the entire text to become clearly visible to everyone.

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All the yes! 

This is very well put together, but also; I think something important to take from this, is that as much as we love to analyze things, or compare things, or consider things that have or haven’t been explicitly said in canon: Sometimes it’s okay to see what you see, to trust your own eyes and gut feeling, because for everyone who’s not deliberately blind to it, the difference between Dean/Cas and Sam/Cas at this point is so blatantly there in your face, even though they technically have the same ‘relationship’ under the umbrella term ‘family’. 

As much fun as it can be for all of us to dive into text and subtext and what not, by now all you need is a pair of functioning eyes to see that these relationships are simply not the same, and sometimes it just doesn’t go deeper than ‘this is what they repeatedly keep showing us and putting emphasis on, so obviously they want us to pay attention to it because they’re begging us to see it’. :p

YES to all of this!! And I laughed out loud at “On the other side of the coin, they doubled down on demonstrating the blatant differences from how Sam sees Cas as a brother, and how Dean sees Cas as a /////brother/////” although I think Dean also sees Cas as a brother???? because he doesn’t have a good word for what else he might be feeling but he does kind of sense that it’s the wrong one.

Because, like, Dean has functioning eyes too. If nothing else, he’s not blind to the reactions other people have to him and Cas. And as droves of us have pointed out, he never denies it. Sure, the quality of the silence changes from defiant “I’m not even going to dignify that with a response” kind of stuff to “hey that’s personal and what’s more we don’t talk about it”. The extent of this change, for me, was marked by the moment in the mixtape scene (THE FUCKING MIXTAPE!!! I will never be over it) where Dean says “you, me, and Sam, we’re just better together” and there’s a noticeable pause and sigh and head shake before he mentions Sam. 

I think others have said this, but what else does that head shake mean except “I don’t really want to be saying this”? Maybe it’s subconscious but Dean definitely feels like Sam doesn’t fit in that sentence. Just as the bro-zoning of the car scene in 11x23 was shot in a way that felt wrong, uncomfortable, and just off the addition of Sam is something that Dean knows isn’t quite right even if he’s not going to say why. We know it too. Sam isn’t the one in a fight. Sam isn’t the one who freaked the fuck out because Cas was gone. Sam is just glad Cas is back and is off doing his Sam things while Dean fumes. Sam wasn’t included in Cas’s gesture between him and Dean as he said “you mean we?”. Sam is Dean’s human shield in this moment because otherwise he would fall off the Feelings cliff and he’s scared. 

Anyway, I got distracted, but the point was that the gut feeling you get when you watch a good story being told is probably the right one. I experimentally showed this scene and the reunion in 13x05 to a few people who have literally never watched the show and asked them if they think it’s over-reading to call it romantic. They looked at me like I was a fucking lunatic and said it would be an over-reading to say it wasn’t. (Then they were like “can’t we just put in our order for Indian takeout already?!” so I had to stop.) So: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a mixtape is romantic and Dean and Cas are in love. The end.

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flyingfish1

Dean: [intensely skeptical “don’t lie to a professional liar” expression]

So we know what Dean thinks about all this

hehehe

(seriously, was Krissy the go-to “teen girl Dean mirror character” before Claire showed up?)

I tend to think that the Dean/Cas “sibling, or person you’re in love with?” confusion is a theme that’s been percolating for a reeeeaally long time now – at least as far back as this episode with Krissy, which is almost five years old. The theme gets put on hold for a while in season ten by the Carver plot accordion, during which all the big themes and plot arcs are delayed so the plot can be stretched out for an extra season. But yeah, this scene with Krissy is from 8x18 (written by Adam Glass), and then, a season later in 9x17, the idea is raised again, with Abaddon taunting Josie Sands about her unrequited love for Henry Winchester:

Abaddon: He loves you too, you know. Like a sister.

…which is also from an Adam Glass episode. So he was returning to this idea and keeping it going. 

Tangent that isn’t entirely a tangent – This is also the episode in which Josie willingly agrees to be possessed to protect the man she loves; talks about herself in terms of her “usefulness”; and establishes that she doesn’t have her own family. She gives off lots of season eleven Cas vibes. Season eleven Cas is lonely and depressed and wanting to be “useful.” Season eleven Cas lets himself be possessed, and then he chooses to stay possessed to save Dean, and then he gets sibling-zoned at the end of the season. 

I think pretty much all of Cas’ s11 issues and story arcs can be traced back to season nine: his depression (9x06); his feelings of uselessness and his misconception that Dean mostly cares about him for his powers (also 9x06); and the potential that he could be possessed (Hael trying to possess him in 9x01). 

It’s not the biggest stretch in the world to think that the whole “the man I’m in love with loves me like a sibling and it hurts” issue is part of that. Of course, while Henry did love Josie like a sister (as far as we know), Dean doesn’t love Cas like a brother, but Cas doesn’t know that.

(While I’m on the subject of season eleven, Amara also confuses her longing for Chuck with her interest in Dean, so that’s an example of that fraternal love/romantic love confusion that goes the other way around. also Dean mistakes Jesse and Cesar for brothers and has to be corrected, which isn’t really what the anon was asking for but which fits into the theme, I think.)

I have rambled.

TL;DR 

If you want shows that have played around with the “fraternal love or romantic love?” question, SPN itself is one of those shows, for what that’s worth. It is a hurdle for the characters to overcome, I think, but it seems to have been deliberately placed.

also Dean is a tough but awkward teenage girl, as we know :p 

I just want to remind everyone the Krissy scene from 8x18 came from an episode that started with Dean not wanting to talk about his feelings regarding what happened with Cas. This was the ep after the crypt scene in 8x17 where Dean was supposed to say I love you.

If the “I love you” had been a reality, the nay-sayers would have just said it was a platonic, familial one. And then an episode later we got a character that obviously had feelings for someone and calling him ‘brother’, which Dean said was a lie. Coincidence much?

This just brings memories of the first time I fell in love with a girl. She was straight (as far as I knew) and she was my best friend. I even wrote poems about my so-not-platonic feelings for her. I knew what exactly they were, but you know what I called her to her face? “My little sister”. So, Dean is definitely an awkward teenage girl 😁

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I Need You…

So this is going to be long and rambly and I apologize in advance. I’ve talked weeks ago about how Dean and Cas don’t use the same language to talk about their love for each other in this post and there’s also this great post not by me about how Dean and Cas still have to find a relationship dynamic that makes both of them feel good (because neither family or friend have been able to keep them both satisfied and close together, something they both want).

And I was thinking… while we as a fandom have been (rightly so) completely freaking out and being happy about the “I need you” in 08x17, I feel as if the show has been trying to portray this particular kind of sentence as extremely negative in the last few episodes. Granted, this has been going on for longer than that, but this season with Sam “needing” Jack it has reached a new height.

The obvious but surface-level reading (which Dean has right now) says that Sam is just using Jack for his powers to get Mary back. And while that does factor in and yes, Sam really is hopeful that Jack could help, this is by no means the only reason he cares for Jack. We know that because we’ve seen the conversations between Jack and Sam: we’ve seen him spell out other motivations and we’ve seen him being kind and caring to Jack in the last episodes. It’s not just about needing him, it never was and it never will be.

But, here’s the thing, saying you need someone is safe. Which is why Sam chooses to use it multiple times when he talks to Dean.

Can you imagine Sam just opening up and telling Dean “yeah I want to help Jack because I see myself in him and I desperately want to prove myself that you are not inherently evil because of your powers and I also just can’t see him suffer the way I used to”? (Though I hope it does get said some time in the future.)

“I need him” is a cop-out because it’s true enough that you can say it convincingly but it doesn’t hold the emotional weight that others could use to mainpuate or hurt you. 

But it’s also the wrong thing to do because it leads to misunderstandings all around: first of all there’s Dean who can’t see past the lie and resents Sam for just working with Jack for - in his opinion - stupid motives. But more importantly there’s also Jack, the one who’s “needed”, who eaves-dropped on the conversation and now probably thinks that everything else Sam has said to him before was a lie to make him cooperate. 

And that brings us finally back to Destiel because the same thing happened to Dean and Cas: Cas is still convinced that Dean only NEEDS him for specific purposes because that’s all that Dean ever told him. Even after Cas told Dean that he loves him, one of Dean’s arguments when he was missing for a few episodes was “You weren’t there when we had a shot at Dagon!”.

Now we, the audience, know that this isn’t true, that Dean doesn’t just need him to be a good tool, he cares a lot about him. But “I need you” just doesn’t cut in anymore and the last episodes have made that abundantly clear.

If you lean back in your seat and sigh “Jesus, Sam, don’t say you need him to bring Mary back, HE’S NEVER GOING TO UNDERSTAND THIS” then you can probably see what I mean by that; we are supposed to do that because it’s framed as bad and not even close to explain all of Sam’s intentions. It’s missing half the picture and this half could be used to paint a way more harmonious picture, one where people know they care about each other equally (but then, that wouldn’t be Supernatural, would it).

But what I want to say in conclusion: when Cas comes back, Dean saying “I need you” just won’t cut in anymore. It’s not a good sentence, it leads to misunderstandings from all sides (Dean thinking Sam only needs Jack as a tool can also be the other way round: Sam not getting how much Cas truly means to Dean because he never expressed it) and it doesn’t solve anything.

It was a good sentence 5 seasons ago but now it’s time to move on. The question is what will Dean say instead?

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thedogsled

I love it when the show usurps itself and flips those tropes back on their head.

I mean since it was “I love you” in the script originally it has never occured to me since that point that that isn’t the ultimate end goal. Jensen/the writers ultimately believed it wasn’t the right moment? I mean, I sort of agree–it wasn’t at the time. But it almost is, and that is so fucking exciting to me.

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k-vichan

Yep, here’s yet another post that should have been posted 4 years ago (and likely was, by someone else), but this is another one of those things that I HAVE TO SAY.

The more I think about the scripted “I love you” being changed in 8x17 Goodbye, Stranger the more it fucks with me. Not because I think it should have remained as written – I agree that it would have been pretty strange for Dean - Dean has said “I love you” exactly one time in the show, and to his mother, in a fucked-up flashback to when he was four. (It was also way, WAY too soon for Dean to be saying that to Cas.)

But really, it’s because the line “I need you” is just so goddamn PERFECT for the story, both in S8 and later seasons.

The beginning of the season starts out with this:

SAM: What? [DEAN unfolds the note.] What’s it say?
DEAN: Uh, that they bolted, that we shouldn’t come looking, and since we lost the tablet, Kevin figures we don’t need him.
SAM: Yeah, but Crowley still does. What’s that kid thinking?!
DEAN: He thinks people I don’t need anymore – they end up dead.
8x02 What’s Up, Tiger Mommy?

This exchange is immediately followed  by a flashback to purgatory – a false flashback, might I add – to Cas’s hand slipping out of Dean’s, and Cas crying out for Dean. And then Dean finds out that he altered his own memory – that what really happened is that Cas had left him.

And flash-forward to 8x17, and Dean tells Cas that he needs him.

I mean, yeah – I’m sure it’s been meta’d to death that Dean’s “I need you” DOES mean “I love you” in Dean-speak, but FUCK – Dean is on his knees, telling Cas he needs him, which means that Dean will not let him die.

IT’S SO FUCKING PERFECT THE WAY IT IS.

(“I love you” can come later – if ever. These two fuckers have other ways of saying it.)

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Anonymous asked:

Im sorry if you or someone has answered this but I can't find an answer anywhere trawling through... if u don't mind, maybe you can help me understand why cas wants to hide the tablet from the angels in 8x17? I'm confused why it'd be bad if the angels have the angel tablet...? Or is he just upset at their treatment of him? Surely the best place for the tablet to keep all angels safe is heaven tho?

Hey there! You’re lucky I just watched 8.17 yesterday, and 8.21 today (because that’s where we see the culmination of the journey Cas goes on with the tablet). There’s quite a bit more to the history of the angel tablet that we explore in s9, with Metatron using it to power his Magical Canon Typewriter and try to rewrite the script to his own liking, and I think some of that actually gives us more insight into just how powerful the tablets themselves really are.

Going all the way back to 7.21 when the Leviathan tablet is first cracked out of its stone shell, it releases a sort of cosmic blast wave that wakes both Castiel from his catatonic state AND delivers the lightning strike of Prophethood to Kevin Tran. Just shattering those things loose and exposing them to the world seems to imply that the tablets themselves can exert a degree of control upon their surroundings.

Leviathan tablet is cracked open ==> a Prophet of the Lord who can read the Word is awakened and compelled to seek out the tablet

Angel tablet is cracked open ==> an Angel of the Lord happens to be standing RIGHT THERE and it compels that angel to take care of it above and beyond all other duties or desires.

(and now y’all might understand why I still don’t think s8 was all that destiel-y. Cas spent 99% of the season either in Purgatory, under Naomi’s mind control, under a similar level of “mind control” by the tablet, and then swayed by Metatron’s lies about “fixing heaven.” Like, he literally had ZERO agency of his own for the vast majority of the season.)

There were the few seconds between when Cas stopped beating on Dean and dropped his sword where he was, I believe, himself. But as soon as he touched that tablet and this happened:

I think he was as powerless to resist the compulsion to serve the tablet as Kevin was in 7.21. He abandoned his entire life, stole his mom’s car, and just started driving without any clue as to why. The tablet made him do it.

KEVIN: I had to take my mom’s car. I-I think I had a seizure or something. [White light flashes in his eyes.] I’ve been chosen. It’s my birthright.CHANNING: Oh, my God, Kevin, all the pressure you’ve been under. This isn’t one of those overachiever-teen meltdowns, is it?KEVIN: I’m supposed to keep going. I’m not allowed to stop.
and later:
[SAM hauls KEVIN to his feet and tries to take the bag with the tablet away from him.]KEVIN: I’m sorry.[SAM keeps trying to pull the bag from KEVIN’s grasp.]KEVIN: I-I’m sorry. I… I don’t – I don’t know why, but I can’t let go of this.
KEVIN: All I know is, this is – it’s for me. I’m supposed to keep it.
KEVIN: I don’t want to be a prophet.

He didn’t want to be a Word Keeper, but the tablet chose him. Compelled him. If he’d had any choice in the matter, he wouldn’t have just driven off with a weird light in his eyes spouting nonsense about his birthright and all that…

Much like Cas in 8.17:

DEAN: So, this “Naomi” has been controlling you since she got you out of Purgatory?CASTIEL: Yeah.DEAN: Well, w-what broke the connection?CASTIEL: I don’t know. I just know that I have to protect this tablet now.DEAN: From Naomi?CASTIEL: Yes. And from you.

Cas broke the connection with Naomi before he picked up the tablet, because of Dean’s words to him. BUT THE SECOND HE TOUCHED THE TABLET THAT DIDN’T MATTER ANYMORE. The tablet had chosen its defender, and the tablet didn’t care if Cas didn’t want the job. Just like it didn’t care if Kevin wanted the job.

At least, that’s how I always imagined the tablets functioned.

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@mittensmorgul has talked about Dean and Cas being in similar situations of “aloneness” during the episode - Dean in literal isolation in prison and trapped in his head with nothing else to do, Cas in a metaphorical prison made of his loneliness and guilt and feelings of inadequacy.

I want to point out how agent Camp’s prediction did come true - not for Dean or Sam, but for Cas, who ended up talking. The isolation did drive him to spill out the truth of his feelings. And it’s interesting to see how agent Camp’s speech stresses the idea of isolation bringing up what one needs to hear - because the Winchesters do need to hear those words from Cas, that they mean a lot to someone, that they have worth for what they are, that they are not pieces that than be sacrificed interchangeably or at all.

While we’re at this, notice how Cas’ speech starts with the world needs you and then shifts to you mean a lot to me. Just like Dean said we need you first and then said I need you. This couple of dumbasses (because let’s be real Dean was right in his definition…) needs to be driven to desperation before spilling out the truth about their feelings, but still it’s not enough. As @awed-frog has well argued, Dean stays convinced that Cas doesn’t share the particular kind of feelings Dean feels for him (yes, he gave up an army for one guy, but that doesn’t mean Cas loves him in that very human way Dean loves him, does it? yes he said that they mean so much to him, but it’s about all of them, the Winchesters plural, right?) and Cas stays convinced that Dean sees him as a brother, which opens problems because Cas sees that Dean obviously doesn’t consider and treat him the same as his brother, which means that it’s a lie, right? (I don’t remember who has pointed out that Cas senses lies, so his distraught expression in 11x23 when Dean told him that he’s a brother might have been due to the fact that he sensed that it wasn’t really true… ouch.)

So they have both told the other something the other needed to hear, but not everything that the other needs to hear - and it’ll take more metaphorical isolation, more “staring at walls”, I suspect, to make the entire truth about their feelings surface.

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awed-frog

That’s an excellent point. We often discuss how Dean and isolation don’t mix, but in a way Cas would deal even worse with being left alone, wouldn’t he? because he’s a kind of a - hive animal, or something, and he’s used to hearing his brothers’ voices and presence as clearly as he’s aware of his own, and now - now it’s not clear what’s going on with that, but I think it’s safe to say Cas is sort of disconnected from Angel radio? And he’s crap at dealing with people, and yet he hates being alone, so I’m guessing that his doomed vampire hunt stemmed also from that - he’s probably noticed Sam and Dean get more than wounds and victories from their hunts - that they flirt with waitresses and bartenders, sometimes spend the night with people, other times get invited for tea and crumpets or end up bitching about life with some policeman or whatever, and I’m thinking Cas wanted some of that too when he headed down to Missouri. And instead, we know what he got - more rejection, more isolation, and more proof that he’s nothing like a human and that after all this time, he doesn’t even begin to understand how humans work.

If him stabbing Billie was a parallel for Dean calling Billie, though, then I’m even more worried about the consequences than I already was.

(Can’t we just get one happy episode? Christ, wouldn’t they celebrate Dean’s birthday in some way now they’re together in the Bunker and everyone’s alive? Uuuuugh.)

Yeah, this.

(also, did anyone else get shades of the crypt scene from this too? No, just me?)

(as far as the weight of the confessions go, at the very least)

Well I mentioned the “the world/me // we/I” thing - yes they were both moments in which they were driven to desperation enough to say things out loud but not the entire thing they needed to say, I guess. I don’t remember if I wrote this somewhere else or just in my head because everything is dizzy these days, but I think that between the crypt scene and this scene they have pretty much laid down similar cards on the table. They both believe they have made their feelings clear but the other doesn’t get it - Dean said he needs him and that they’re family, but he still hasn’t said family in which sense (Cas knows he’s not a brother for Dean, but he thinks the difference between him and Sam is quantitative thing, not qualitative); Cas has made all the big gestures - giving up everything for Dean, etc etc, but Dean thinks Cas’ love for him is not the same sentiment Dean feels for him - a mixture of angelic cosmic sentiment, growing attachment to a broken thing as Cas becomes broken too, and so on.

Dean needs to clarify what that “I need you” means, and Cas needs to clarify what that “you means so much to me” means. Need you how exactly? Mean what exactly? And of course trace the line between family feelings and individual feelings.

Urgh you guys are killing me with all this. This is just another example of how Dean and Cas are on relatively the same path, mirroring each others story lines but with Cas a few steps behind.

I think it was @mittensmorgul who drew on the parallels between the three shots of Dean and Sam in isolation and Cas being sat in a darkened bunker with shadows like prison bars behind him. Cas was as much in isolation as the Winchester’s were, and the only one who didn’t break was Sam.

Yes Sam and Dean need each other, but this at least proves one other vital point. Sam can cope on his own. Dean and Cas need each other.

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