Mel, the finder of things, reminded me of Carver’s notecard from s8:

JC: That’s a tricky thing. I remember sitting with Eric and him saying, “I know exactly what the last episode [of the series] is going to look like for the brothers.” And at this point, I almost feel like I should give him a call and be like, “So, what does that look like?” It’s tricky, but I know personally, as a staff, we’re looking at…there’s a card in my office that has three seasons from now, what would be a cool myth endgame. We don’t have a brother endgame, though that’s there [in our minds], too. That’s a constant [thought]. You always hope you get the heads up [if a show is on its way out]. You always hope you get the heads up, and sometimes it’s possible and sometimes it’s not. You can’t weight the scales too much with not knowing. You have to tell the story you’re telling.

(from this interview: http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2012/10/01/supernatural-jeremy-carver-on-season-8-having-an-endgame-and-more/_)

We don’t know if Mary was one of those three things, but it seems a likely possibility. Carver may have thought that Mary returning in some way would make a nice endgame episode. But Dabb decided to bring her back to actually have her story told, rather than just showing up in the fashion of John in 2.22 to help defeat the big bad and then silently float off to Heaven, or to just show up as a sort of cosmic reward instead of a human person with her own side of the story to share.

The Mother Mary myth would never have been broken, and her un-fridging would never have been able to address the fact that she was just as traumatized by the supernatural as everyone else, and not a beatified, idealized concept of a person, you know?

I’m watching 12.01 in the background as I type this, and Mary and Dean’s conversations before they find Sam are just painful. This essentially sets up all of Mary’s personal struggle in s12:

Mary: When we do find Sam. How am I gonna face him? Dean: What do you mean? Mary: That yellow-eyed thing would never have come for him that night if I… I started all of this.

So Carver may have seeded s8-10 with reminders of Mary– most prominently in 10.23 with Sam giving Dean the picture of her and telling him to use his family as a reminder of who he is, but I don’t think (at least not based on that linked interview there) that he ever intended to give Mary a story, a voice. So needless to say, I’m SO GLAD that Dabb decided to bring her back, to pull her out of the fridge, and actually let her be a PERSON.

I’m not sure that being a prize for services rendered to the universe is much better than being fridged for manpain, especially after the narrative made it HER choice way back in 1973, her YES to Azazel and her running away from hunting and keeping it all secret from her family. Even if she was manipulated into that choice by Heaven (cupids forcing her to fall in love with John in the first place) and Hell (gotta get Lucifer’s meatsuit born and raised up right on demon blood for him to wear to the apocalypse!) Not only did she have a lot to answer for, she would also harbor a boatload of guilt and regret over everything that happened after.

So… yeah, Carver may (or may not! we’re guessing about stuff at this point, but he did slip Mary’s photo into the visual narrative ten times between 8.01 and 10.23, illustrated in this handy post: https://justanotheridijiton.tumblr.com/post/146134918664/so-weve-got-dean-coming-across-with-him-making-a), but as far as we can tell he never intended to give her a voice. She never would’ve been able to climb down off her pedestal and be allowed to be a person.

So I’m giving at least some credit to Dabb here, for seeing her as more than the idealized dream of a 4-year-old’s memory of the person he’d thought his mother was.

Dabb did actually talk about it at least once:

In fact, Dabb says the plan to bring Mary back into the fold has been floating around for “at least two years” in the writers’ room. “It didn’t feel right until the end of last season,” he says.

That’s from an Entertainment Weekly article from Oct. 11th, 2016. 

https://ew.com/article/2016/10/11/supernatural-mary-winchester-season-12/

If that’s accurate, then they would have started discussing it at the start of season ten, or towards the end of season nine, or thereabouts -- during the Carver era. Dabb was the one who committed to it, though, so points to him. It’s interesting to look at season ten knowing that TPTB were thinking about that, because in retrospect there’s thematic foreshadowing all over the place! Things like Crowley meeting his mother again, and Claire searching for Amelia (which I wrote about once here). 

And yes yes, it’s so great that it wasn’t just an endgame thing!

BNFs in the Supernatural universe

samlicker81: A Voice Of Authority because she dated the series creator but various factions believe she was lying about that and passed her fanfiction off as the official unpublished books #25+. has been doxxed at least twice. at the center of the canonicity wars that basically split the supernatural fandom in 2011. fanlore has a page on her as tall as she is.

it’s_charlie_bitches: the sunny, exuberant personality that made fandom fun again for a lot of people. has… interesting ideas about characterization. will literally fight you on behalf of her fictional boys. writes hella domestic fic. Just Wants Her Boys To Be Happy, Damn It. suddenly stopped posting in 2015. her hardcore fans still wait for her return.

queserasera: that one writer who tried really hard to write a continuation of the series that sounded exactly like canon and just overshot the mark. most people skip the casefic parts of her stories. went full crackfic later in her career. she did write good character studies.

jcarverwrites: writes the soppiest stuff that you’re kind of embarrassed to read but enjoy because it just scratches that itch in your soul. everyone is dying or evil or confessing their griefs to each other. gets flack for obviously shipping destiel in his supposed canon continuations. most-bookmarked fics in the fandom though.

spnanddabb: that guy who writes intricate, plotty fic that demonstrates he’s in love with the canon and everyone else in this bar. shouts out to his fellow writers all the time. criticized for caring 0% about logistics and geography.

OOH one more:

beckywinchester176: a lot of people think she’s just samlicker81, and there’s entire blogs dedicated to “proving” it. Her claims to have married Sam are as unbelievable as her claims to have dated Carver Edlund. There’s a few staunch fans who’ve hidden their true identities well, but who insist beckywinchester is on the up and up. Conspiracy theories abound.

waywardbobo: loves Jody, Donna, Claire, Alex, and their whole extended family of hunters-in-training up in Sioux Falls. Is single-handedly expanding the canon universe with fic about these awesome ladies. Also plays off spnanddabb’s fics to a ridiculous degree.

OH, THIS IS EXCELLENT INFORMATION TO HAVE! I didn’t realize that so much was known about the switch. I wasn’t the one who asked, but thanks :)

I had been assuming that it happened sometime between Rowena’s “death” in 11x10 (which I feel was intended, at the time, to be a real and permanent death) and her return in 11x18, because that was such a clear example of a course-correction. That lines up with what I’d been thinking, then.

Approximately 11x14/11x15 onwards. OKAY.

While I’m happy for Dabb and excited to see where he’ll take the story, I also wanna say that I am sad to see Carver leave. He is definitely a brilliant writer - and the best showrunner so far in my opinion. His era (seasons 8-11) has been legendary, unique. He changed SPN for the better. I will miss his writing a lot. On the other hand, Dabb has been his right-hand man for a while now, and I’m sure he will not forget Carver era’s legacy. :)

It’s official, Dabb is show runner! Congrats to him and Carver as he stars his new show. And I really don’t know what Singer is doing - probably more of a consultant, helped for the new guy???

I’m looking into Singer because this site has mixed up basic data points handed to them before (i.e. always calling the first ep filming of the season the premiere when it’s actually the third one airing).

From Fangasm’s recap of Jensen’s meet and Greet at JaxCon (https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/jared-and-jensen-at-jaxcon-supernatural-cons-kick-off-2016/)

So. To be clear Carver has told Jensen Dean isn’t enamored of Amara that way so…I think that sheds some light on this most recent ep.

(via ibelieveinthelittletreetopper)

bless you

(via clusterjam)

heh, they really don’t tell the actors anything unless they ask, do they?

Some people were wondering about this, so I took screenshots – last season, Singer and Carver were both listed on the end card; this season, it’s just Carver.

This is good, right? Has to be good?

It is good, actually! Robert Singer is now billed as an Executive Consultant instead of an Executive Producer. Now, I doubt that Singer was actually demoted by his own higher ups, or there would’ve been some drama behind it; it’s more likely that Singer is backing off on his own for whatever reason. Maybe he’s tired, maybe he wants to work on something else, maybe last season’s clusterfuck has something to do with it.

Semi-boring talk about how stuff sometimes works under the cut.

Keep reading

Well, this was awkward…!! (video)

He deserved every second of that, as well as his cast deserting him and leaving him on the spot. May this be a lesson to him.

Jeremy Carver TV Guide interview

So, haven’t seen this on here yet. Hat tip to Winchesterfamilybusiness for finding it. It’s apparently in the print version of the magazine - the special SDCC issue.

Q: In the closing moments of the season finale, we saw the Darkness envelop the brothers inside their Impala. What’s next?

A: Fans should be prepared for both the expected and unexpected. What we have planned so far is pretty wonderful, but it’s very hard for me to tease it.

Q: If Dean had ended up killing Sam and going into exile to remove the Mark of Cain as Death had advised, the Darkness would never have returned. Will Dean have regrets about his decision?

A: There’s no question the boys will feel the burden of having been part of releasing the Darkness. It’s tough for me to believe, however Dean will get to that place. You might have to file this one under the price Dean was willing to pay.

Q: Instead of killing Sam, Dean murdered Death! Does this mean everyone on Earth is immortal?

A: The question now is: We killed Death, but can you kill the idea of death? We’ll be looking forward to answering it in Season 11.

Q: After several seasons of Dean or Sam being evil or cursed, will they finally be working side by side this year?

A: As always all I can say is yes—and no.

Q: Is the Darkness your biggest bad since Lucifer and the threat of the Apocalypse in Season 5?

A: It’s safe to say this is the biggest thing to happen to the boys in a long time. We’re starting to explore prebiblical territory, a part of the universe’s history that hasn’t been written about before. This is what happened before the Bible begins.

Q: In the finale, Rowena’s magic caused a crazed Castiel to attempt to slaughter the King of Hell, her hated son Crowley. Will either survive to help the brothers?

A: Based on what happened in that room, both of these guys have far bigger things to deal with than the boys at the top of the season.

Q: So who will the Winchesters turn to for help?

A: The scariest proposition for Dean and Sam is they don’t know exactly what they need because they don’t know exactly what they’re dealing with. They only know what Death has told them. Everything after that is pretty much fresh snow, because so few people know about this.

Q:Finally, what is your big theme for Season 11?

A: You can’t outrun your past.

——

Props to the reporter for good question and to Carver for revealing NOTHING.

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out (it’s been exactly 2 seasons, so probably, but I still wanna do it just in case)

8x18, “Freaks And Geeks”, this scene:

Dean suggests that Sam maybe take a break and sit this hunt out since he’s been doing the trials, asking him if he feels okay. Sam follows Dean up with asking him the same question. Pretty normal. Until Sam specifically mentions Cas.

PAUSE–Dean is obviously physically okay. Cas healed him before he left in the previous episode, which was 8x17 “Goodbye Stranger” (this was the infamous crypt scene, where Cas beats the snot out of Dean because he’s under the control of Naomi. Then the connection broke not-so-mysteriously after Dean told Cas “I need you”, causing Cas to snap out of the mind control and heal Dean before leaving)

So, Sam is specifically asking about Dean’s emotional well-being. He wants to know how Dean is taking the whole thing with Cas. Because evidently Sam understands that Dean and Cas are best friends–this was not a small deal for him. 

Continue.

No need in pointing out that Dean is emotionally constipated when it comes to Cas. What’s interesting here is his reference to “Cowboy Junkies.” 

I never really knew what that reference was (I didn’t know Cowboy Junkies were a Canadian rock band) until I was listening to the radio today and heard a song by them. I remembered this scene and went to look at some other songs by the band. 

Interestingly, one of their songs is titled “Misguided Angel.” Here are some of the lyrics:

Now, Adam Glass wrote this episode, and he’s not exactly Robbie or Carver. But Cowboy Junkies don’t seem like something that Dean would just KNOW about–they’re not his style, and you can tell by the way he sort of makes fun of them in his conversation with Sam. So, I think it’s pretty intentional that the reference was put into his dialogue, ESPECIALLY following the previous episode. The song applies so much to Dean and Castiel. It’s such a subtle reference that they could easily get away with it passing over a lot of viewers’ heads. 

But that oh-so-gentle nudge of, ‘hey, Dean’s got feelings for Castiel’

That’s what I’m here for.

bonus:

[x]

of course it was fucking carver’s idea

Now, if Carver specifically told him to put that in, then yes, it may well be because of that song rather than because it’s a song or band Dean would be likely to actually mention.

HOWEVER. 

If we want to talk about what Dean would likely know of the Cowboy Junkies, rather than what Carver might want to throw in regardless of Dean’s character… Allow me to present you with some context as a person who is the same age as Dean and was exposed to the same pop culture during the impressionable teenage years.

Cowboy Junkies were known in the US in the 90s mainly for one song: Sweet Jane. It was originally released in 1989, BUT it got used in the Natural Born Killers soundtrack in 1994 and that version - which includes dialogue from the movie - is what was all over alternative radio in the mid 90s. (In the movie, the song plays in the background while this dialogue happens; in the radio edit, the dialogue plays over the instrumental intro and then the singing starts.)

So what would Dean’s impression of the Cowboy Junkies have likely been?

Mickey: The whole world’s comin’ to an end, Mal.

Mal: I see angels, Mickey. They’re comin’ down for us from heaven. And I see you ridin’ a big red horse. And you’re drivin’ the horses, whippin’ ‘em. And they’re spittin’ and frothin’ all along the mouth. And they’re comin’ right at us. And I see the future, there’s no death. ‘Cause you and I, we’re angels.

Mickey: I love you, Mal.

Mal: I know you do, baby. I’ve loved you since the day we met.

Anyone who’s ever had a heart Wouldn’t turn around and break it and anyone who’s ever played a part Wouldn’t turn around and hate it Sweet Jane, sweet Jane Sweet, sweet Jane You’re waiting for Jimmy down in the alley Waiting there for him to come back home Waiting down on the corner and thinking of ways to get back home Sweet Jane, sweet Jane Sweet, sweet Jane Anyone who’s ever had a dream Anyone who’s ever played a part Anyone who’s ever been lonely and anyone who’s ever split apart Sweet Jane, sweet Jane Sweet, sweet Jane

Then the last bit, nobody seems to agree on what the actual lyrics are. I always heard it as “heavenly white roses,” but a lot of lyrics sites (and that video) say “heavenly widened roses” (which makes no sense?), BUT there are a couple sources that say “heavenly blue-eyed roses.” Which also kinda makes no sense but is fun to imagine. ;)

But anyhow. Point being, Dean’s impression of Cowboy Junkies would almost certainly include: The world ending, angels coming down from heaven, you and I are angels, I’ve loved you since the day we met, breaking hearts, playing parts, WAITING FOR JIMMY TO COME HOME, and being lonely and split apart.

#these words right here are the proof that we’re not that delusional after all

7x22, 10x03, 10x10

BEST RE-USE OF FURNITURE EVER.

I would assume that Wanek just re-used it because and it would cost money to make or buy a new ornate chair. Then again, this is Supernatural, where very few things are ever random, and I honestly think that there’s a reason they pulled it out of storage.

In 7x22, the Alpha has been lied to by Dick Roman, who assures him that they can share the supply of humans once the Leviathan take control. Of course, Sucrocorp is poisoning the vampires’ food supply, and the Alpha is thus losing control over his thousands of years-long “reign” on Earth as the supreme monster. Meanwhile, Crowley in 10x03 and 10x10 is faced with the question whether to trust his henchmen and Rowena, and his hold on his own kingdom is slipping. This chair seems to signal treachery! treason! perfidy! etc., specifically vis-a-vis royalty (the purple fabric), and that the chair’s owner is losing control of one’s kingdom.

Here’s another cap of the rest of the room in 7x22 where the chair first appears, in case anyone’s interested in trying to further parse a parallel between the two scenes. (The painting of Michael slaying “the dragon”/Lucifer, which itself is reused from 4x23, is across from the chair, interestingly enough.)

P.S. I fucking love that chair, by the way. 

P.P.S. Whatever happened to the Alpha, anyway? We never see him die. Adding that one to the long list of loose ends on this show.

tldr: Carver hit the reset button because season 7 painted them into a corner.

"When leaving that storyline, the idea was that they were leaderless but still around us," notes executive producer Bob Singer, "so if somebody pitches a Leviathan story that sounds good, we have that option available to us."  [The Essential SPN]

“It was sort of like an ex-girlfriend; every now and then I’d check in,” Carver tells TVLine of the years he missed while working on Being Human.

Although Carver says he was “really, really impressed with the job [executive producers] Sera [Gamble] and Bob [Singer] did over the last two seasons,” he did notice something during his marathon viewing that he felt could be improved upon. “The one thing that struck me [while] watching Season 7 was I felt like the show got a little bit buried under its mythology,” he says of the year that found Dick Roman trying to start a Leviathan takeover of the human population. “It became a little hard to tell exactly what was going on at times. The longtime fans all deserve intricate plot, but it felt a little burdensome.”

Carver says that he hopes to grip viewers by starting Season 8 with something familiar “like a flashback that lifelong fans or early fans will hopefully appreciate the magnitude of, but new fans can also grasp onto.”

“Resetting our mythology was one idea that I tried to bring into [the show],” he adds.

(more end of season 7/pre-season 8 bits below the cut)

Read More

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Are we thinking he makes a deal to let Metatron go free? Like Hannah was considering?

Knight, Nicholas. Supernatural: The Official Companion Season 3. Titan Books, 2009: 35-36. (via justanotheridijiton)

Interview with Misha, right after the Mid-Season Finale:

[x]

Interview with Carver before the Mid-Season Premiere: 

HMMMMM.

Jeremy Carver re: his three season arc, from this interview with IGN. (via crossroadscastiel)

(via dubiousculturalartifact)