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#rohan – @errruvande on Tumblr
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Mae Govannen, mellyn vell

@errruvande / errruvande.tumblr.com

Liza✨24✨She/her✨English is my second language ✨ Tolkien, TLK and Vikings writings 💔 HaIdir lover, Leofric sucker🥵 follow from @eru-vande
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Do you have any specific idioms that you’ve come up with for Rohan?

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Yes! I’ve got a huge mishmash of adages, idioms, little sayings and turns of phrase that I’ve made up over time for use among the Rohirrim. A bunch of them are in old posts, which I can’t locate because Tumblr’s search function is garbage, so here’s just a random helping from memory in all of the above categories:

  • “Crumbs will do when crumbs must do” (often shortened to just “crumbs will do”). Leftover from the famine of the Long Winter, it means “stop whining and make do with what’s available.”
  • “The proof is on the tongue.” This refers to the cultural tradition that the way to recognize whether a stranger is a friend or foe is to see if they can speak Rohirric, but it gained added nuance after the reign of Thengel, when he came back from Gondor speaking Sindarin and Westron all the time, which rubbed people back home the wrong way. Now it’s used as sort of a general expression about whether something or someone is genuinely of Rohan.
  • “Cirion didn’t win alone.” Based on Cirion coming to Eorl to ask for his assistance (which ultimately led to the Oath of Eorl and the founding of Rohan), it means “don’t be too proud to ask for help when you need it.”
  • “[Person] rides with their hands at their chest.” Proper riding posture has your hands at hip level, but amateurs often end up raising them higher to keep their balance (rather than making the correction in their seat as they should). Basically, this is one of the harshest insults you can fling at someone by insinuating that their horsemanship is bad.
  • “He’s going to hear Béma’s horn.” Referring to Oromë’s sounding of his great horn as he rode against the servants of Morgoth, it means that someone did something very stupid and now he’s going to face wrath for it.
  • “The glory of the grass is the glory of the field.” I stole a version of this from one of my favorite books, Matrix by Lauren Groff, but I think it’s perfect for a kingdom of plains and grasslands where collectivism is necessary for survival. One blade by itself is nothing, but a field has shape and substance and beauty. And if your field is not doing well, your personal glory as a single blade is still diminished even if your blade is thriving.
  • “[Person] has gone with Ácith.” Ácith is the Rohirric name for Béma’s wife. Flowers bloom in her wake, and so they believe that the appearance of simbelmynë on their graves means that she’s been there to escort the dead person on to their after life. So to “go with Ácith” means that someone has died.

I *also* really like thinking about unique words that would exist in Rohirric and not in other languages. I’m already on record as saying that I think they have DOZENS of words for “horse” that recognize different distinctions and nuances that no one else bothers with, but I’ve also speculated that they’ve got words like something that translates directly as “oath honor” and means the pride of having fulfilled your promises/commitments at great personal cost.

I totally LOVE this stuff and could sit around thinking about these all day every day, so if anyone else has examples that they want to throw out there, please do. I would LOVE to see them!

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I wonder if there was ever a significant conflict between Eomer and Lothiriel, and Eowyn and Faramir, in regards to their differences in culture. If there were, I'd reckon between Lothiriel and Eomer they'd be early on, whereas with Eowyn and Faramir they'd take longer to emerge. I read a theory that Eowyn would actually quite like Faramir considering her "not like other Rohirrim", after all she endured in Rohan, and with her desire to be special, but as she grows more confident in herself and regains pride in her land, stuff that perhaps she didn't notice before or felt flattered by begins to bother her. I'd imagine it must also flare up for both when it comes to raising the kids, and in lawful rulings where Gondor and Rohan justice differs.

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So I am OBSESSED with this whole line of thought! It hits on a couple of things that have always stood out to me about Farawyn — things that I notice every time I read the text and are always kind of floating around at the edges of my thoughts when I contemplate them, but that I’ve never really contextualized or merged into a broader theory/HC. Those two things are:

1. Faramir is the one in the book to give voice to the belief that the Rohirrim are “middle men” and that Gondor, in the process of declining, is becoming more and more like Rohan. He never explicitly and fully disclaims this belief and, thus, potentially still believes it to be true even after he marries Éowyn (even if we assume he doesn’t think of HER that way).

2. When Éowyn first sees Faramir, we’re told that she “knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.” So her very first reaction to this total stranger, before he really says or does anything, is to elevate him above every single man her homeland has ever produced. That’s pretty huge, given that the Rohirrim have legendary warriors in their ranks and think of themselves explicitly as “men of war” whereas Faramir isn’t even the strongest warrior in Gondor and specifically does not like to think of himself as a warrior at all. To me, this dismissal of the Rohirrim gives off just as much bitterness toward Rohan as it does respect for Faramir, someone she doesn’t know and doesn’t know anything about yet.

So, consistent with the theory you referenced, both sides of their relationship start off in a Rohan-critical place (that’s not a judgment on Éowyn — she would be justified in feeling embittered toward Rohan given some of her experiences there — though I do judge Faramir for it, sorry Faramir fans! I still like him anyway!). I can definitely see her, in this frame of mind, liking the fact that Faramir thinks she’s different/better than other Rohirrim.

But somewhere in my subconscious, that’s always rankled for me because I have also always believed that Éowyn is intensely proud of Rohan. She has always read to me as someone who would get into a bar fight with anyone who disrespected her country. The way she talks about being a shieldmaiden just drips with pride and defiance, and that’s core to her identity as a Rohirrim. It’s deep in her heart. So would she really go the whole rest of her life holding onto all that anger (especially because we have reason to believe that the things she was most unhappy with in Rohan were changed after the war — Éomer’s reaction to Gandalf telling him why Éowyn was unhappy seems to indicate that he Gets It now, he doesn’t seek to interfere at all with her making the decision to marry Faramir, and Gríma is dead)? Would she still be so dismissive of Rohan or tolerate anyone else who had those views?

I don’t think she would. And if her views evolve and Faramir’s don’t, then there is some kind of conflict coming. That’s not to say that I think their marriage would be unhappy or that this would split them apart, but they have to reckon with it at some point, right? @emmanuellececchi has written a fic where it’s clear they’ve had this conversation and successfully addressed it — Éowyn kind of jokingly holds it over his head that he ever thought that stuff, and he obviously doesn’t think that way anymore— and I absolutely LOVED it. But I think it would also be fascinating to look at it from an intense and dramatic angle by showing her perspective start to change over time and then giving us a front row seat to watch those initial, potentially ugly conversations about it.

I don’t know if whoever wrote the theory you saw ever made a story out of it. If they didn’t, then someone should, and nobody writes intense, emotionally fraught Éowyn like you, my friend! So if this is a line of thought that you’d ever consider following into a fic, I could simply not be more thrilled and would BEG you to tag me in it.

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First of all, thanks for the mention about my little fic, really appreciated. It is thanks to you and @torchwood-99 that I even got the idea to write this.

I have some ideas about Eomer and Lothiriel. @konartiste will certainly be able, even more than me, to explain all of this in better terms and her various fics have shown many aspects of their relationship.

I think the relationship, and conflict, betwen Eomer and Lothiriel will depend much of how they got together. Arrange mariage? Love marriage, an in between? Then, how was Lothiriel in the Gondor society, how did she feel?

We certainly can think Gondor, and inhabitants have a certain view of Rohan. Although we know at least one who certainly wasn't like that, namely Boromir. Faramir might be, in this, more like his father and Aragorn. After all, those three have a bit more Numenorean's blood and abilities coming with it. It might well play in that. But I digress.

Lothiriel. It might really depends how you see her. In @konartiste story she is this strong willed woman who knows what she wants and knows how to naviguate the Gondor society. Still, when Eomer comes, her world is put upside down. But it's not going smoothly.

My view of Lothiriel is a bit different. A young woman that has been, a bit like Eowyn, forced to take on a role that she will have to follow whatever her own desire. Duty to her land and family. She will marry and gives children to her husbands, leaving all she knows behind.

in many ways, I see her as close to Eowyn with a fiery mind. But she has no way to make herself heard. There is no exit. Beside a husband. Although she loves her father and brothers, each time they leave, she is the one to take care of everything. To stay behind and hope that they'll come back. She feels burden, not only by this, but also by the legacy she has, her "elven" (kinda) beauty. All that in a city close with wall.

When Eomer arrives, he is this breath of fresh air for her.

I've read how some writers say she should be shocked by the way the Golden Hall is, the animals, the horses... The way they interact and so on, hugely different from what she knows. But, if you feels your life is held back by your society and you find a place where you can actually breath, you can actually be a bit more yourself? You might find in your heart to go over some of the difficulties.

Yes, Eomer will certainly ask her to do precisely what Imrahil did, give her the duty to govern Rohan in his absence. But the way it is done, the "reward" in the end, might be different. I feel Eomer will trust in her, hoping/being happy to have someone who can do this. She might feel empower by this.

Maybe, the conflicts would come more from her needing to impose herself as an outsider, not knowing all the rules in Rohan and having to headbutt or understand councillors and other nobles.

Somewhat, I feel Lothiriel and Eowyn will have the same struggle : to show they can be the queen/princess needed, even if they come from outside.

My Lothiriel may have more of a romantic idea of what it is to live in Rohan. But when she is faced with the reality, it does not upset her. On the contrary. She feels she might be more free here.

Also, full disclosure... my Lothiriel has a bit of a fear of the sea. She has nightmares of waves crashing on the city and wonders if they will be punished one day. Plus the great wall of the city make her feel claustrophobic. So Rohan, Edoras and the great open space? Greaaaaaaaaaat for her.

Sorry! it wasn't exactly what you were asking about. I think there are many possibilities for conflicts, depending on how you see Lothiriel. She is such a blank page.

Such an interesting question, such rich and thoughtful answers!

Meanwhile my little brain is whirring with the implications of intercultural tensions in the Borodred relationship...

Oh and I'd have lots to say about the language question. The Rohan siblings (and Théodred too probably) are bilingual between Rohanese and Westron. Were they raised in a fully bilingual environment? Or did they have to learn it formally as a requirement to be worldly and educated? How keen are Faramir and Lothíriel to learn Rohanese? How proficient do they actually become, and how fast? What is the status of Rohanese at court when Éomer becomes king?

I am bilingual (came from a French family, English mandatory at school from a young age) and in a relationship with with an English speaker who has no intention of learning French in the near future, and although we agree to disagree on this particular issue, it does make for an asymetry which leads to blind spots and could spark eventual conflict.

Therefore I think that the language could represent a big chunk of any cultural conflicts in those couples, especially when the question of how to raise children arises!

There are SO many interesting ideas here and in @emmanuellececchi ‘s reblog and in @torchwood-99 ‘s reblog (which tumblr has decided that I cannot further reblog for some reason????). I’d be really excited to see elements of ALL of this appear in various stories in the future! Let’s go, Team Rohan! ♥️

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emyn-arnen
Gandalf: If the beacons of Gondor are lit, Rohan must be ready for war! Théoden: Tell me. Why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours? What do we owe Gondor?

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) dir. Peter Jackson

Question: who are all those people in the first gif? What are they doing in the great hall? Any ideas anyone? theory, suggestion?

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errruvande

My weakest suggestion is nobles? It's always some noble families hanging out at court, I guess? They just don't look like servants to me, they look too fancy.

So, afar from all the soldiers I guess it's nobles. Maybe the equivalent of Anglo-Saxons ealdormen? And their wives (tho I do really think the wives were going to that kind of meetings with their husbands)

So Maybe ladies of Eowyn and lords of Theoden, Eomer and Theodred? You know how they were in the late middle ages, ladies and lords in waiting? Tho I know that Rohan is based on Anglo-Saxon culture, but it's the only thought that I have at 9 am lol

Don't see you so short! Those are great ideas and I need to check the word "ealdormen". I know vaguely about it but don't know it's exact meaning.

the reason I ask is, when you describe the Great Hall who come there, who is there? just the king? servants? the whole Royal family? there's table on the side and fire.

Or is it a meeting hall for all the people, where everyone can go but when the king is here tehre it is more solemn...

well those are my kind of questions. SO thank you for answering! (9 am? it's only 8 here... so guess you are on the "far" other side of the ocean from me!)

I think, if we look at it at a mead hall (Vikings era Jarls houses), the jarl and his family and servants lived there, but also, if I'm not confusing anything, anyone from the clan could just hang out there in the "open space", cause the house was halved into the private rooms and the gathering hall.

We know that Tolkien was taking bits and pieces from Beowulf (and just Old English culture and legends in general) to make Rohan, and Mead Halls (which, in my opinion, Meduseld looks like, I mean yes fancy but it's still not quite a palace right?) was a center of social life in old English culture and old Norse culture.

But I guess yes, when the King was there, the people were more silent or just went away to let the king be alone. At least I think so haha

*yeah, it's 3:30 pm right now, I'm in Russia 😅 I thought you're from France cause of french but i just realized how many countries have french as one of their official languages lmao You're from Canada, if talking about the ocean?huh*

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emyn-arnen
Gandalf: If the beacons of Gondor are lit, Rohan must be ready for war! Théoden: Tell me. Why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours? What do we owe Gondor?

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) dir. Peter Jackson

Question: who are all those people in the first gif? What are they doing in the great hall? Any ideas anyone? theory, suggestion?

Avatar
errruvande

My weakest suggestion is nobles? It's always some noble families hanging out at court, I guess? They just don't look like servants to me, they look too fancy.

So, afar from all the soldiers I guess it's nobles. Maybe the equivalent of Anglo-Saxons ealdormen? And their wives (tho I do really think the wives were going to that kind of meetings with their husbands)

So Maybe ladies of Eowyn and lords of Theoden, Eomer and Theodred? You know how they were in the late middle ages, ladies and lords in waiting? Tho I know that Rohan is based on Anglo-Saxon culture, but it's the only thought that I have at 9 am lol

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reblogged

pHORSEuasion - Chapter 1. Into the Very Fire

Éomer. Éomer.

Rowena’s heart rang with the name at every step of her weary mare. The crunch of chips of ice underfoot mingled with the tinkling of cattle bells and the clinking of chain mail. Muddy water spurted over the wilted grass around hooves and boots, pooling in the footprints behind. Sulking merchants and shepherds trudged silently in the cold sludge. Only the guards escorting the caravan, in turns riding ahead to look over ridges or knolls, exchanged a few words signaling that the way seemed safe.

Rowena sat half dreaming, looking down along Mjuka’s shoulder, past the puffs of mist rolling from her nostrils. For long hours since the morning, she had watched her hoof break ice, crush grass and splash mud.

Éomer.

Two days before, when they had started upon the grassy path that stretches south out of Glamsbjerg and joins in Grimslade the great road east along the lower slopes of the White Mountains, the travelers had exchanged songs to lift hearts and stories to stir laughter. But on this third day on the road, after uneasy nights in the damp and freezing camps, songs and laughter had turned scarce.

Rowena ached from the long, slow journey in the saddle, for she had not often left Glamsbjerg in the two years since her family had withdrawn there. Rare had been the occasions for a leisurely ride; she had shared old Mjuka with her mother and sister after misfortune had forced them to part with their best horses.

Folcred’s passing the month before had deepened their sorrow beyond measure, but the modest purse they had gotten from selling his war horse and his armour had granted them the means to pay their most pressing debts. They still had enough left to purchase warm clothes for all three, wood to keep their hearth burning for the rest of the winter, and they had bought another small, hardy mare. Her mother had then managed to part with the trusted Mjuka for her journey to Edoras, however long her stay there might be. But the beautiful, spirited mare she had reared, trained and ridden as a young girl was lost forever.

She steered her mind away from bitter recollections of the happy, careless days of her youth, from before she had known loss, disgrace, and privation. She curled her numb fingers in the scruffy short mane, saying a prayer in gratitude for her humble companion.

Éomer. Éomer. Éomer.

Read more on AO3

Taglist (I've included people who have shown interest on previous posts, let me know if you want to be added, removed, multiplicated, divided, notified only when the fic is done, etc) @emmanuellececchi @errruvande @konartiste @from-the-coffee-shop-in-edoras @erathene @mithrandirl @dreambigdreamz

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errruvande

If you see this, go and read, it's so beautifully written 😭😭😭😭

I love Rowena already 💖 The way the biggest horror of her life in Edoras is not Grima or any actual horrors, but Eomer (can't we all relate to this?? huh)

I loved the little chat with Theodred, a great dive into their friendship ✨ And Breda is... a little bit naive and simple for the future Queen? 😅 i couldn't wash off the thought of Charlotte from The Princess and the frog 😅

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emyn-arnen
"They are proud and wilful, but they are true-hearted, generous in thought and in deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years [...]. It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan." The Two Towers by J. R. R. Tolkien (published 1954)

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003, dir. Peter Jackson)

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